303 British brass from 405 win

[screwcutter]

I have several No 4 Enfields with large chambers, I was looking at my Lyman manual and compared 405 Win brass to 303 and decided to get some Hornady 405 Win brass and made up some 303s. Here is a pic of my first try, using a 35 Rem die in between. The one on the right is a HXP 303.


131572

Rounded up 375 H&H die and shortened it to start the necking down, then into 35 Rem with a locking ring to raise it up some, a 8x57 trim die to neck more and cut extra length off and 303FL then trim & chamfer, the rifle i tested in needs the neck turned a bit.
The thicker rim on the 405 brass, can make up for sloppy head space, they will not chamber in barrels that I have setback to SAMMI head space specs.

[EDG]

I made a few .303 from .405 cases and from .444 Marlin too.

The .444 Marlin has to have the head swaged and then turned a little to get it into my .460 diameter chamber.

The .405 brass cases were very tight to too tight on the rim in my rifle. My rifle has a #2 bolt head.
If I used them in large quantity I would thin the thicker rims from the front so they all fit the #2. If I had a better barrel I might use a #3 bolt head and thin all the rims to an exact fit.

But that is not all. My chamber neck is too small to accept the .405 cases so I had to turn the necks down about .0015 effectively creating Lee-Enfield tight neck benchrest type brass.

When set up so the round headspaces on the shoulder combined with the maximum diameter of the .405 case head should give very long case life.

[gbehrman]

30-40 Krag brass should work with some trimming. I use 303 reformed to Krag with just one pass in a full length sizing die. The 303 comes from a large chamber Ross and is a little short but works Ok.

[justingrosche]

Yikes, 405 to 303 Brit. ? Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime!:bigsmyl2:
I have a small bit of 303 brass if your that down on your luck!

[screwcutter]

EDG,
I have a beautiful barrel/bore with a large chamber is my motivation.

gbehrman,
The 30-40 Krag brass I've found measures the same size as the 303.

justingrosche,
It's not about saving anything, but obtaining properly fitting brass.
Thanks for the offer, but i can get/have enough under size 303 brass.

[EDG]

It is more of an exercise in learning. There is nothing cheap about buying .303 brass and having it separate on the 3 or 4th shot. The .405 brass that I experimented with was donated to me. All I had in the project was the work.
If I can make the cases last 30 or 40 reloads I think it is worth using .405 brass to avoid all of the head separations.

In the mean time PPU .303 brass has the largest head (.454 to .455) and the longest head to shoulder length if you want to avoid case stretching as much as possible.

Yikes, 405 to 303 Brit. ? Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime!:bigsmyl2:
I have a small bit of 303 brass if your that down on your luck!

[longbow]

While the oversize chamber may be an issue if really oversize, I have reloaded my .303 brass many times with no case head separations but I have taken to just neck sizing.

I have three Lee Enfields I have shot a fair bit and all have "oversize" chambers (typical military spec) in the sense that the shoulder of full length sized brass looks like it moves about 1/16" at firing (maybe not quite that much but a lot). So yeah, I suspect if I full length sized all my brass I would see head separations frequently.

Also, I found that my RCBS die was sizing the case necks to about 0.310"/0.311" inside. Okay for jacketed boolits of nominal 0.312" but I am using cast boolits of 0.315" so lots of squeezing brass down then opening it up again ~ hard on brass and hard on boolits (they were being sized by the brass). I got a Lee Collet die and made a mandrel to give 0.313" inside the necks. Brass lasts longer and accuracy has improved.

Nothing wrong with forming brass form .405 Win cases if you want but I would still be neck sizing only and using a collet die set to suit the typically oversize boolits so not overworking the necks.

Works for me anyway.

Longbow

[justingrosche]

EDG,
I have a beautiful barrel/bore with a large chamber is my motivation.

gbehrman,
The 30-40 Krag brass I've found measures the same size as the 303.

justingrosche,
It's not about saving anything, but obtaining properly fitting brass.
Thanks for the offer, but i can get/have enough under size 303 brass.

Geez, I didn't mean to insult you. It just seemed odd to me. Usually we reform cases from common case to hard to find cases, not the other way around.
Would setting the barrel back fix your problem?

[EDG]

You have reloaded it many times like 30 to 50 times with no case head separations - with full power jacketed bullet loads? And never had 1 case head separation? What was your motivation for your special loading technique then? It seems since you have never had CHS, you are missing any real proof that the Lee Enfield needs a special reloading technique.


While the oversize chamber may be an issue if really oversize, I have reloaded my .303 brass many times with no case head separations but I have taken to just neck sizing.

I have three Lee Enfields I have shot a fair bit and all have "oversize" chambers (typical military spec) in the sense that the shoulder of full length sized brass looks like it moves about 1/16" at firing (maybe not quite that much but a lot). So yeah, I suspect if I full length sized all my brass I would see head separations frequently.

Also, I found that my RCBS die was sizing the case necks to about 0.310"/0.311" inside. Okay for jacketed boolits of nominal 0.312" but I am using cast boolits of 0.315" so lots of squeezing brass down then opening it up again ~ hard on brass and hard on boolits (they were being sized by the brass). I got a Lee Collet die and made a mandrel to give 0.313" inside the necks. Brass lasts longer and accuracy has improved.

Nothing wrong with forming brass form .405 Win cases if you want but I would still be neck sizing only and using a collet die set to suit the typically oversize boolits so not overworking the necks.

Works for me anyway.

Longbow

[madsenshooter]

I made one, 6mm/30-40AI from 405. I had a bolt body someone had lapped the locking lug on, so wanted a thicker rim. The other 19 cases I sold, too much work! Easier to hold the reamer short and make the cases from the more available .303.

[Geezer in NH]

Using a Lee collet neck die solved my 303 Brit separations I get 10-15 per commercial case. Learned it from the a sight on the net. 303.com

[W.R.Buchanan]

Screwcutter: Just how much oversized are your chambers? I have seen some difference in the position of the shoulder in new, versus fire formed cases in my #4 Mk1. But I have mostly seen this issue being grossly exaggerated by others. The differences in new versus fire formed brass are definitely there, however they really aren't all that bad and will be expected once you understand how the Case/Chamber relationship works.

As you can see in the pics below there is a small amount of change in the position and shape of the shoulder but it is hardly excessive. The case on the left is a new unfired Hornady case and the unfired new loaded round is a PPU 150 gr load. You'll note the shoulders are in basically the same place, as compared to the fire formed PPU case in the center. Is there anything wrong with that fire formed case? I don't think so. The shoulder moved forward about .030 and filled the chamber but the neck is still in the same place. Obviously the shape of the chamber and the shape of the unfired rounds are slightly different.

I have loaded my well used before I got them,,, Winchester/ Remington and misc. cases 5 times now with Cast Boolit Loads with no signs of any case problems. These cases are significantly inferior to the Hornady cases and really inferior to the PPU cases which are a full 10 gr heavier than the new Hornady cases. I expect the PPU cases to go indefinitely if loaded with Cast Boolits.

However,,, and this is the Big Rub! You only neck size these cases. and I am using a Lee Collet Die to do that, as it works the brass the least amount of all dies.

If they lengthen to the point where they won't chamber then bumping the shoulder back .002 will fix it for another stint.

If you full length resize this round every time you reload it will fail in just a few firings simply because everytime you set the shoulder back the case stretches to fill the chamber. Case separation follows soon after.

This cartridge case headspaces on the rim. Whatever happens in front of that is peculiar to that rifle and essentially not any big deal,,, As long as you don't change the shape of the case when you reload it.

You fire formed it on the previous firing and it should go back into the same hole with no problems whatsoever.

Thus the whole "large chamber discussion" is Mute. It doesn't matter if you use the same ammo in the same rifle.

These chambers are all larger than factory loaded ammo, and they were done this way so ammo from anywhere in the world would fit and shoot. They didn't give a ship about reloads as nobody fighting a war is shooting them,,, Except maybe the Taliban.

I recently read an article in Rifle Magazine about the .303 and written by Mike Venturino. He experienced case failure in 3-4 firings with full power jacketed bullet loads without fail. He also Full Length Sized every time. I was surprised he didn't figure this out.

Larry Gibson commented on this on a thread about the .303 and I didn't even bother to question it as it made perfect sense.

It has proven to be true for me so far, and I will let you know if anything changes.

YMMV.

Randy

[screwcutter]

Ok,
When I say oversize chamber I mean by longitude, not latitude I don't worry about shoulder position. The .460" base of the 405 brass fits in the chamber, so it is better than .455" ppu and other smaller stuff. I have some small WW that I have fired a bunch of times with boolit loads that seem to be holding up. If you look at the case on the far right in my OP this is a large HXP case that shows the expansion above the solid head. With this chamber the FL die setup to neck size still sizes the bulge back down with out touching shoulder. I have and use Lee Collet die and the Lee Loader.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I see what you are doing, and I applaud your making cases from scratch. I am curious about the thickness of the .405 brass after you get done with it. Can you weigh one after it is fire formed and trimmed to length?

The PPU O/F brass is 178 gr with the spent primer still in the case.

For my own personal use I will be buying new PPU brass if any of the stuff I have right now ever gives up. So far it appears to be the best out there for this round. Before I found out where to buy it I bought factory loaded PPU ammo for @$14.00 a box and that is where I getting my PPU brass. (SGA Ammo)

I also have to make a bunch of these PPU cases into .35-303 by stuffing them into a .358 win sizing die to expand the case mouths. I am using the PPU cases for these instead of the new Hornady cases simply because of the difference in brass thickness. They will be Neck Sized after firing using the same die backed off. Lee doesn't make a Collet Die that will work for this round and I don't plan on loading these cases that much anyway so I should get decent brass life with the RCBS FL Die backed out to only neck size.

Most of these rounds will be loaded with 250 gr cast, but I also plan some 250 gr Jacket Bullet loads for hunting. They probably won't be shot that much so case life won't be an issue.

Randy

[screwcutter]

Randy,
My once fired, PPU go 177gr, neck turned Hornady 405 go 194gr and unprimed as formed 405 are 196gr. I wish I could make 219 Zipper from 30-30 half as (easy/hard) as these are to form. I have been buying PPU factory loads to shoot for the brass.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wow, so the .405 brass is that much thicker? 20 gr is a lot of difference. I would think they would hold up indefinitely .

Randy

[slam45]

i have been thinking of making 30-40 krag cases from 405 win as i can't find any 30-40's and my 120 year old win'95 has a long chamber and can use a long neck... i haven't made much progress on this yet as i keep looking for 30-40's but so far they have not showed up...could a 375 win die be used to start forming?
Sam

[Freischütz]

405 case rims are thicker than 30/40s.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I've made 405 cases out of 30-40 Krag. It worked ok except the finished rounds were 1/4 inch too short. They fed and shot well with a bit more fouling in the front of the chamber, but otherwise did well for me at a time when I could not get regular 405 cases yet to be made by Hornady. Used them in a Winchester 1895. LLS

[longbow]

Well, I am a little late responding. Just saw the thread pop up again.

It seems EDG has some questions about my methods and motivations so, while late, here are my answers:

- "You have reloaded it many times like 30 to 50 times with no case head separations - with full power jacketed bullet loads? "

I doubt any have been loaded 30 to 50 times, more like 10 to 15 but in all honesty I don't keep track as well as I might. I'll try to do better.

No head separations, not one, ever.

No not with full jacketed loads I shoot almost exclusively cast so light to moderate loads in the majority of reloads but a few cartridges have seen full jacketed loads in days gone by. Only one or two each though. I didn't segregate them so can't say how many more reloads they have seen.

- "What was your motivation for your special loading technique then?"

My motivation was to stop working the brass so badly and to size more to suit the boolit which is sized for my typical oversize chamber. My RCBS full length sizing die was pushing the shoulder back about 1/16" every time I sized so hard on brass. I was getting occasional split necks and I found the brass work hardening badly at the necks and shoulders.

The dies also sized the neck down to suit the nominal 0.312" jacketed bullet but I am loading 0.315" boolits so suit my typical oversize chamber and bore so again extra working of the brass and I found that I was actually sizing some boolits down at seating since the necks were so tight. So hard on boolits and brass.

To solve both issues I bought a Lee collet die then made a mandrel at 0.313" to size for enough neck tension for my 0.315" boolits. It worked.

I am not sure this qualifies as a "special loading technique" though.

- "It seems since you have never had CHS, you are missing any real proof that the Lee Enfield needs a special reloading technique."

I was trying to solve other problems, not case head separation because I didn't reload the brass enough times in sloppy chambers to experience case head separation... assuming my sloppy chambers actually have too much headspace of which I can't say because I haven't checked them. However, I have read that by neck sizing only excess headspace ceases to be an issue because the fire formed bass fits the chamber perfectly... so no excess headspace.

Again, I don't think this really qualifies as a "special loading" technique. Lots of people neck size only so they do not work brass unnecessarily and so the cartridges are fire formed to the chamber.

So yes, I guess I am missing proof that case head separation in Lee Enfields is problem.

I hope that answers your questions.

Longbow

[screwcutter]

slam45,
I think that the rim thickness may need attention as Freishutz states, the thick rim helps out with the .303. I haven’t messed with 30-40 other than to make 2bx worth of .303 brass. I don’t think 375 win die would work too well as it is a straight case, the 35 Rem is about the 405 case diameter and starts forming the neck real nice. The 375 H&H I use to just start the neck forming, it is kind of large with no support/centering. I saw some 30-40 Krag ammo at Bass Pro over the week end, I've found it more fun to make brass out of factory ammo.


I use the LEE Collet die, adjusting it for minimum neck sizing, also have Lee-loader I use a lot. It can also over work the neck when using boolits.

I think the 303 British gets a bad rap on headspace and rear lockup, when I believe the large chamber is the culprit. The case swells at the junction of sidewall and the solid head and the size die set to only necksize, sizes it back down and they separate quickly, looks just like an excessive headspace problem. The military didn't care how long the cases lasted, once was enough, as long as it chambered, fired & extracted/ejected.

[Vern Humphrey]

30-40 Krag brass should work with some trimming. I use 303 reformed to Krag with just one pass in a full length sizing die. The 303 comes from a large chamber Ross and is a little short but works Ok.
Hmmm . . . I have both a Krag and a Ross, but my Ross has the chamber "hogged out" -- something that was done apparently to improve reliability in the trenches -- and the fired cases come out looking like a .303 Epps. I'm still trying to find a die that I can use to reload those cases.

[Idaho Mule]

Hmmm . . . I have both a Krag and a Ross, but my Ross has the chamber "hogged out" -- something that was done apparently to improve reliability in the trenches -- and the fired cases come out looking like a .303 Epps. I'm still trying to find a die that I can use to reload those cases. Just neck size them and go, they're fireformed to your chamber and that's all you need. JW

[screwcutter]

Vern,
I would look at using a LEE .308 win collet in a .303 collet die to neck size, you may need to get custom or modify mandrel depending on projectiles. I have a funny dimension chamber in one that the 303 collet die worked on and so did the LEE Loader for j-words.

[taco650]

I made a few .303 from .405 cases and from .444 Marlin too.

The .444 Marlin has to have the head swaged and then turned a little to get it into my .460 diameter chamber.

The .405 brass cases were very tight to too tight on the rim in my rifle. My rifle has a #2 bolt head.
If I used them in large quantity I would thin the thicker rims from the front so they all fit the #2. If I had a better barrel I might use a #3 bolt head and thin all the rims to an exact fit.

But that is not all. My chamber neck is too small to accept the .405 cases so I had to turn the necks down about .0015 effectively creating Lee-Enfield tight neck benchrest type brass.

When set up so the round headspaces on the shoulder combined with the maximum diameter of the .405 case head should give very long case life.


Where do you get the different size bolt heads?

[BigEyeBob]

The Lee Enfield chambers are only over size due to SAAMI specs being incorrect for the chamber dimensions of the Lee Enfield chambers, the British specs are the correct specs.
Brass made to SAAMI specs wont last long if you FLS every time , PPU /(Highland ammunition if buying factory stuff) brass is made closer to the British specs and that is what I use .It's way cheaper and of good quality
I stopped using Remington Winchester and Hornady brass along time ago due to it being very much under size to the correct British specs and showing signs of head separation on the first firing.

I also use the shoulder of the case to head space on and neck size only when reloading .
Quite simple to head space the using the shoulder really ,some thick fishing line curled up by dragging it over the back edge of a knife ,cut to length and placed in front of the rim , fire the cartridge and you have a case that fits your chamber and spaces on the shoulder.Also this centralizes the cartridge in the chamber so that the case expands evenly around the chamber .If the bolt closes with a slight amount of resistance then is all good .An o ring that fits the case head and is thin in cross section diameter will also work but you need a few as the extractor wrecks them pretty quick .Neck size from then on, FLS only when necessary .
Of course it will fit only one rifle so I have batches for each LE That I own , been doing this for many years and I rarely have problems with 303 cases.

[longbow]

My experience exactly Bob... except I have three Lee Enfields that will all chamber the same fired brass and one that is a bit tighter. They will chamber in that one too but some are a bit snug. Nonetheless the other three get used most and I don't have to have dedicated brass for each.

I have been told that .30-40 Krag brass makes very good .303 brass as it is slightly larger at the head so they fill the chamber better. Trim full length size then fire form. I have not tried that one though.

Longbow

[BigEyeBob]

My experience exactly Bob... except I have three Lee Enfields that will all chamber the same fired brass and one that is a bit tighter. They will chamber in that one too but some are a bit snug. Nonetheless the other three get used most and I don't have to have dedicated brass for each.

I have been told that .30-40 Krag brass makes very good .303 brass as it is slightly larger at the head so they fill the chamber better. Trim full length size then fire form. I have not tried that one though.

Longbow


Longbow ,
30-40Krag is unobtainium in this country ,Ive never seen it at all for sale ,on other hand PPU 303 brass is readily available and is quite reasonably priced ,as is Highland factory loaded ammunition for the 303 . I live in a remote town and my LGS always has plenty of the Highland ammo on the shelf ,they also have Winchester , Remington , but I always by pass that stuff.
Depending on the flavour of the month prices for empty brass it's often cheaper to buy the loaded ammunition and break it down just to get the brass.
S&B brass is also easily had for the 303 here and is equal in quality to the PPU offering .
I have two Lee Enfield MKIIIs and a BSA Lee Metford sporting rifle in 303 ,Ive never tried swapping brass between them to see if they will chamber at all, Maybe Ill test that in future and I might be able save my self a bit of trouble .
I also have some other rifles with cartridges based on the 303 case , a M96 Mauser in 303-25 and a KAR98 Mauser in 303-270 ,so I keep a fair amount of new brass for all .
Also a there is a Lee Enfield MkIII converted to 303-25 lurking in the safe somewhere set to be re- barreled to 375 Express at some future date .
303 brass also makes great 410 shotgun cases .

[EDG]

Bob
I disagree. You cannot find a fully dimensioned and toleranced British, Australian or Canadian arsenal drawing of the .303 British chamber. Remember it has to be toleranced and the crappy British drawings/sketches are not toleranced. If you get a CIP (European standard .303 drawing) and a US SAAMI standard .303 drawing and do the trigonometry to convert the CIP to inches you will find the European drawing is an almost EXACT match to the US drawing for both cartridge and chamber.
I believe that the British did a running change to their chamber design in WWI due to their sorry experience in the mud of the trenches and it was never documented. I agree that you can have problems with US made brass but I think the US made brass probably meets the original British drawings from 1888 but you will never find a set of drawings to examine that is toleranced.
I know people that claim they get a lot of use out of neck sized .303 brass and it may be true with cast bullets but it never seems to happen with jacketed bullets at jacketed bullet velocities. Not even Ken Waters could do that.
However I have used the US made brass extensively in the 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher and it behaves like any other brass and never separates.



The Lee Enfield chambers are only over size due to SAAMI specs being incorrect for the chamber dimensions of the Lee Enfield chambers, the British specs are the correct specs.
Brass made to SAAMI specs wont last long if you FLS every time , PPU /(Highland ammunition if buying factory stuff) brass is made closer to the British specs and that is what I use .It's way cheaper and of good quality
I stopped using Remington Winchester and Hornady brass along time ago due to it being very much under size to the correct British specs and showing signs of head separation on the first firing.

I also use the shoulder of the case to head space on and neck size only when reloading .
Quite simple to head space the using the shoulder really ,some thick fishing line curled up by dragging it over the back edge of a knife ,cut to length and placed in front of the rim , fire the cartridge and you have a case that fits your chamber and spaces on the shoulder.Also this centralizes the cartridge in the chamber so that the case expands evenly around the chamber .If the bolt closes with a slight amount of resistance then is all good .An o ring that fits the case head and is thin in cross section diameter will also work but you need a few as the extractor wrecks them pretty quick .Neck size from then on, FLS only when necessary .
Of course it will fit only one rifle so I have batches for each LE That I own , been doing this for many years and I rarely have problems with 303 cases.

[longbow]

I guess the Krag never made it to Australia Bob.

One day I may try the Krag to .303 conversion but I have lots of brass as it is... mostly Winchester.

Canada is kinda "in between". While we have strong ties to the UK, the States is our near neighbour so we get a bit of both. We have a fair number of Lee Enfields in the country but get US factory loads and brass for the most part.

Have you mic'd the Highland or PPU brass to check any differences between it and typical US brass? I have never seen Highland or PPU brass or loaded rounds here.

Still learning lots!

Longbow

[screwcutter]

I just measured some new/unfired 303 brass/ammo:
Wolf (PPU) .455"
PPU .455"
PMP .455"
HXP .455"
HDY .405 .458"
WW II SURPLUS .454" & .455"
RP 30-40 .453"
WW II SURPLUS WRA .451"

Fired in a barrel that was setback 1 turn:
Wolf .455"
Fired in a barrel that was setback 1 1/2 turns:
PPU .457"
I have never seen Highland brass or ammo so I don't have dimensions of that, we all know what size WW is.

The drawings I have seen are not toleranced but show brass @.4554" & chamber @.4575"

I have been head spacing on the shoulder since I started loading .303s, I have some WW brass using Boolit loads that seem to be holding up ok sizing that way. I have multiple 303s so I sort by rifle. I think that rimmed headspacing is the most precise method and the thicker .405 Win rim was a nice side effect from forming to .303, and the .303 was designed to HS off the rim.

I am going to do an accelerated test of case life using LEE loader and a single case at the range one of these days using reformed .405 and PPu and J-word loads. When I first got my LEE Collet die I was trying to size for J-words, I wasn't impressed but I like using it for boolits.

[Huvius]

Just neck size them and go, they're fireformed to your chamber and that's all you need. JW

Very true. I have a Gibbs Farquharson that has a chamber from which the cases are Epps like.
I must keep brass for that rifle separate and neck size only for it since I would think that FLSing will overwork the brass.
I am not sure the chambers such as this are specifically for military since my rifle is something of a "sporting match rifle".
I am sure that the 303 rifles out there have the greatest variation in chamber dimentions than any other chambering.
To the OP, that first step case necked down with the 375 die is a good looking cartridge! Sort of a .375 flanged magnum with a long neck for heavy for caliber PP boolits. Would be a fun cartridge IMO.