Forming .577/450

[craig61a]

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere on this board before, and there are plenty of websites that discuss it/show it. I have formed .577/450 using only the Lee .577/450 sizing die, and it was quite time consuming. It took me about 4 hours to form up about 17 MagTech cases, ruining 8 in the process.

After watching this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRnSOrPbho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRnSOrPbho)I decided to look into getting an intermediate die to make the process go a little quicker. So I got a die off eBay which takes the case down to around .560". I had to start with the .577 Snider die to get the case to enter the intermediate die, and that got the job done fairly quickly without a lot of problems.

Setting the .577/450 die up, I went in small steps, but I still get to a point where the case develops wrinkles and at that point it's pretty much wrecked. Now I've tried this just annealing lightly, annealing where the case mouth is cherry red, but it's still not working too well.

It seems as though reducing the diameter in steps of .025" at a time or so would be the best way to tackle this job without ruining brass at a buck a shot: when you can find a vendor that has it in stock...

I'm just curious whether there is someone who might make say a 5 or 6 die set of forming dies stepped to do what I described above.

And yes I know that there's Captech (former Jamison) - they might do a run this year... or the guy that sells the formed hulls, or 28 gauge CBC hulls...

Thanks!

Craig

[sthwestvictoria]

I tried it and had a success rate less than yourself, even with annealing after every 5mm or so of sizing, trialling various case lubes. I gave up. Luckily we have Bertram brass here in Australia that manufactures proper headstamped drawn brass 577/450 cases albeit not inexpensive at $AUD6-7 each.

[Charley]

Played with it some, first batch I lost about 35%. As I got better, loss rate runs about 15%. I go slow, about 3/16-to 1/4 inch insertion into the sizing die. Pull it back out, rotate about 120 degrees, and insert another 3/16 or so. Keep sizing on small steps, and rotating the case. Works fairly well for me.

[Von Gruff]

This is what I posted elsewhere on forming my cases from the magtech brass
The 577-450 brass from factory sources is very expensive so making my own was the only alternative and so a set of Lee dies were obtained to make brass from 24g Shot shell brass.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/24gto577-450_zpseaa1715c.png (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/24gto577-450_zpseaa1715c.png.html)
The first attempt was disasterous with a high failure rate (100%) on the first few cases so partial form dies were needed.
The 24 g case needs trimming back to a length of a little longer than finished length and I made a guide to do this on my drop saw and a inside and outside chamfer had them ready for the annealing. The case is 16.41 mm in dia and the length of neck to be annealed is nearly an inch so it was a 22sec anneal to get it right.

[Von Gruff]

First step is to run the case into the FLS die to start turning the mouth over so it will fit in the first form die . There is very little between the size of the case and the mouth of the die so care must be taken to ensure it enters dead staraight or an edge will catch and that can be a case that needs the mouth panel beaten back to round
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1172_zps19c81a45.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1172_zps19c81a45.jpg.html)
I found that my 404 Jeffery dia has an entry size of 15mm so with a length of copper pipe to limit depth of sizing against the underside of the press. This is the first forming.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1171_zps1d7ffb1c.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1171_zps1d7ffb1c.jpg.html)
Then I took the un-used 7x61 S&H seating die and had it turned out to 13,75m and this becomes the second forming
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1173_zps5f05709b.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1173_zps5f05709b.jpg.html)
At this stage it is annealed again but for just 16 seconds this time.
I had a 7/8 bolt cut and trued up then drilled out to 13.5mm and this is the next forming
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1174_zps258f85c8.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1174_zps258f85c8.jpg.html)

[Von Gruff]

It is then annealed again for 14 seconds and run into the FLS die for the last time. The Imperial sizing wax is essential for this but I found that I needed to run the brass into the die just short of depth and then remove it and wipe the wax off the lower area as even with the minutest amount it still seemed to push a roll of it down the case neck and cause shoulder dimples if not removed and just the mearest little bit left for the final push into the die.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1175_zps3aff7b54.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/577-450%20Martini%20Henry/Photo1175_zps3aff7b54.jpg.html)
From here it is given a final trim to length, chamfered inside and out then because the Lee FLS die sizes down for a standard 459 sized bullet there needs to be a good flare made for the first loading and while this short vid is flaring some 303 cases the same thing is doen for the 577-450 case with a different flaring tool. The brass double nipple just happens to be the right height to make this work well. Tapping square on the top of the tool is required and it is repeatable to exact (or as close as needs be) mouth dia as there is a mark scribed on the flare where it needs to stop..
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/videos/th_Video0003_zps5c5a75f7.mp4 (http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/videos/Video0003_zps5c5a75f7.mp4)

[skeettx]

For my intermediate die, I use an RCBS bullet puller die body.
Works wonderfully. YES, I use Imperial Sizing Wax

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/RCBS-Bullet-Puller-Body/productDetail/Reloading-Accessories/prod9999004477/cat100166

Mike

[craig61a]

For my intermediate die, I use an RCBS bullet puller die body.
Works wonderfully. YES, I use Imperial Sizing Wax

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/RCBS-Bullet-Puller-Body/productDetail/Reloading-Accessories/prod9999004477/cat100166

Mike

That's interesting... I'll have to look at my bullet puller die body.

[mac60]

Von Gruff - I don't see you post too often, but when I do I pay attention and digest every bit of it.

[Tackleberry41]

I have never used anything but a regular lee 577/450 sizing die to form cases from the magtech brass. My first tries at it I was losing maybe half. Now have it down to about 4 out of a box of 25 that get ruined. Usually pretty quick, that first trip thru the die, rounding over the end of straight case. If they get a kink in them then, just chuck em, have tried all sorts of stuff to get that kink out, but never works. It will just move down the neck getting worse.

I have had really good luck, annealing, nothing fancy, a cake pan in a dark garage. Lube them good, then a trip thru the die, its barely screwed in at that point, just rounds over the end. I can often get away with not lubing them every time, I screw in the die 1/2 a turn, then run them thru again. They dont feel right give them some more lube. Can generally get 4 passes thru, 1/2 turn at a time before the brass starts to get hard, you will feel it as they dont come out so easy, sound different. Anneal again, then 4 more passes, usually have to anneal 3 times. They get close I start checking them in the rifle, dont usually have to have the die touching the shell holder to chamber. When you get that much of them in the die, you can bend the rim trying to get them out with just the ram, I will help them along with a punch from the top.

I cut them a little long with the dremmel, then the lee tool for final length. I made a neck size die from an extra 45-70 die I had. I dont FL size again unless I have to. Just keep track of the brass for the 2 rifles I have.

[craig61a]

I guess my whole point to this post is in the video above the guy is knocking these out in matter minutes. I've tried to do that with basically the same setup, but I have not had the success that he is having. I do think that just using just the Lee FLS has worked better for me, since the case body is better supported inside the die while the forming operation is taking place.

I was thinking it would be nice to have a set of dies that would size the diameter down in increments of .025 - .030 in a pass. And with that being said I also wonder if taking less of a bite like that would allow for these dies to be made from 7/8" die stock...

[Von Gruff]

Once I have formed and fireformed the cases the first time, I neck size only by using the sizing die from a 480 Ruger set and again have a length of copper tube I slip over the case to set the depth of the sizing to just the length of the bullet in the neck of the case. Have a lot of firings on these cases doing that with the 450gn Lee bullet but with the mould lapped out to .460 and the bullet pp to .468. Loaded over 20gn Green Dot for 1150fps it makes a very accurate and pleasant load to shoot.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

People have reported low case life with even full-power black powder loads in .577/.450 cases made from Magtech shotgun cases, due to splitting at the rim. Before forming might be a good time to do something about this, though let it be understood that I haven't tried.

I have seen old balloon-head cases by the French Societé des Munitions which had a sort of reinforcing thimble of sheet brass extending about 5/8in. up the case body. This appeared to be riveted in place by peening a specially shaped boss for the berdan primer pocket, which you don't have. I think even epoxy might crack under the stress of firing and reforming. But I think a less rigid base filler of rubber or fibre, much like that in a modern shotgun cartridge, might be of help. It would slightly reduce the powder space, but you have plenty of that.


131437

[EDG]

3M™ Scotch-Weld™ Epoxy Adhesive EC-2216
This is a 2 part structural adhesive that is very tough yet has some flexibility.
It would be a good candidate to provide some added safety against rim blowouts. I experienced a rim blow out in a 12 ga paper case back in the old days. The gun was a 12 ga SS and I was hit by a lot of gas coming out of the barrel receiver joint.