C.o.l vs oal

[jkcerda]

OK trying to figure things out here & read sadly a few confusing answers.

is C.O.L the same as A.O.L.? ON the Lyman book I have different C.O.L to OAL.
200 gr #452630 SWC OAL 1.235
200 gr #452460 OAL 1.161
Difference between the 2 is .074"
height difference between the 2 is .105"

so should my OUTSIDE dimension be the C.O.L? the book I am guessing shows the dimensions in the illustration to be 230 gr RN?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10425073_988399694536729_3564431089442661144_n.jpg ?oh=a5c301cea7ba4cfe912d83febe5083ca&oe=554C4212&__gda__=1435696795_591092f116c6986e636cc3fa411fe8d 6

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11001795_988401331203232_5983122581083744991_n.jpg ?oh=fd9fd1132f55911cf20a72d6235cb988&oe=55862C24
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10989118_988402284536470_7681440363939098127_n.jpg ?oh=a5709492ec0f708c4af52d10ceecd91f&oe=558CAC7C&__gda__=1435910678_25050d96b7f4783e28e936b9f24a0a8 f

BTW, a very big

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http://huntersandarchers.com/images/smilies/ty.gif

to Foto Joe for sending me the cast bullets to try , you guys are amazingly helpful.:bigsmyl2:

[dtknowles]

Yes, people here can be very helpful. I will try and answer your question. C.O.L, O.A.L. are the same thing and I use C.O.A.L. Cartridge Over All Length.

It can vary based on different bullet shapes. For revolvers it can be varied to suit the cylinder length but I think there is a standard maximum. When looking at load data the COAL needs to be matched, especially in auto pistol cartridges as they are sensitive to the amount of room left for powder. For guns with magazines the COAL should be correct to allow for loading and feeding from the magazine.

Tim

[JWFilips]

Yes, people here can be very helpful. I will try and answer your question. C.O.L, O.A.L. are the same thing and I use C.O.A.L. Cartridge Over All Length.

It can vary based on different bullet shapes. For revolvers it can be varied to suit the cylinder length but I think there is a standard maximum. When looking at load data the COAL needs to be matched, especially in auto pistol cartridges as they are sensitive to the amount of room left for powder. For guns with magazines the COAL should be correct to allow for loading and feeding from the magazine.

Tim
Tim answered you question! It just has to do with how many letters are used! Some like to be long winded ( re: C.O.A.L.):kidding:

[jkcerda]

I need to reset crimp, they all failed plunk test.

[Mk42gunner]

One reason for the difference you quoted is the 452460 has a very short nose. It shoots very accurately in my guns; but it is, and does, look short.

Robert

[jkcerda]

One reason for the difference you quoted is the 452460 has a very short nose. It shoots very accurately in my guns; but it is, and does, look short.

Robert
SWC passed plunk test after seating it to proper depth.
the other one did not.

is the semi round 452460? seated that one all the way to 1.145 and it still does not pass the plunk test.
using Glock barrel for test.

[therealhitman]

200 gr #452460 OAL 1.161


Isn't the single lube groove 452460 a 165 grainer? That's a shorter bullet than the two groove 452460...

[jkcerda]

Isn't the single lube groove 452460 a 165 grainer? That's a shorter bullet than the two groove 452460...
it has 2 lubes and the weight is about 210 grs.

[therealhitman]

it has 2 lubes and the weight is about 210 grs.

Sorry. Was working from memory and saw a single groove in your pic above.

[popper]

Think of two different numbers. Trim length - case length max/min and seated depth (OAL,COAL, etc.). Books give tested seated depth for a particular bullet. Just a starting point! You CAN change it. Chamber pressure & performance changes so don't jump directly to max load and seat really short/deep. I load a dummy and set my own seating depth, write it down for each gun/boolit.
I need to reset crimp, they all failed plunk test. If you seat & crimp in the same step you sometimes bulge the case. I just crimp enough to remove the flare, in a separate step with the seater plug moved out 1/4". Use neck tension, NOT crimp to hold the boolits. Think of crimping as a safety net.

[fredj338]

For some reason OAL gets new reloaders all confused. Just keep this one point in mind, rifle or handgun; OAL is always gun & bullet specific. Regardless of the data, the bullet MUST fit YOUR gun. So load to the longest OAL YOUR gun will accept. Then work your powder charges up or down from that point. If you never go past mid range loads, OAL isn't going to affect pressure, as long as they are not wedged into the rifling.

[jkcerda]

Sorry. Was working from memory and saw a single groove in your pic above.

no need to be sorry, I am new to this and I appreciate ALL the help I am getting

Think of two different numbers. Trim length - case length max/min and seated depth (OAL,COAL, etc.). Books give tested seated depth for a particular bullet. Just a starting point! You CAN change it. Chamber pressure & performance changes so don't jump directly to max load and seat really short/deep. I load a dummy and set my own seating depth, write it down for each gun/boolit. If you seat & crimp in the same step you sometimes bulge the case. I just crimp enough to remove the flare, in a separate step with the seater plug moved out 1/4". Use neck tension, NOT crimp to hold the boolits. Think of crimping as a safety net.
I am not measuring any bulge, well , not compared to regular rounds at .472


For some reason OAL gets new reloaders all confused. Just keep this one point in mind, rifle or handgun; OAL is always gun & bullet specific. Regardless of the data, the bullet MUST fit YOUR gun. So load to the longest OAL YOUR gun will accept. Then work your powder charges up or down from that point. If you never go past mid range loads, OAL isn't going to affect pressure, as long as they are not wedged into the rifling.
loading at the low end of the recipe.

[wv109323]

I agree with the definition of COL and the others. I have always been taught that ammo for semi- auto pistols have an OAL that is determined by the bullet configuration and not in inches. A semi-auto pistol cartridge with a boolit that has a definite shoulder (SWC, or TC and others) the bullet is seated so that there is around 1/32" of the major diameter of the boolit seated beyond the mouth of the case. This is the optimum length for reliable feeding. OAL is thus what it turns out to be due to boolit nose profile. An example would be the 200 SWC and the 185 SWC boolit for the .45 ACP would have a different OAL due to nose profile. A note that the 200 SWC nose profile for the .45 ACP resembles the same length as. 230 RNFP bullet.
Boolit's with crimp grooves are generally meant for rifles or revolvers. Most semi-auto pistol headspace on the case mouth thus a taper crimp is preferred over a roll crimp(which changes OAL).
Crimp grooves ensure that the bullets are held in place during recoil of a revovler( think 44 magnum). They also ensure better ignition of powder with greater bullet retention. Revolvers head space on the rim.
There is a maximum OAL that must be adhered to, so that cartridges fit in the cylinder or magazine in which they are intended. By the way I would shorten the 200 gn. Loads in the pictures.

[Eddie17]

I was also wondering if they were one and the same. thanks!

[prs]

jkcerda, by the pics you post there is a ridge or areas of pooched lead or debrid on top of the case mouths and that will foul up your plunk test. You may need to clean the lube and such out of your crimp and or seating die. You may need a little more bell before seating.

Your particular barrels may need a slightly different OAL than stated for that specific boolit in the recipe, but if you go shorter the pressure will rise and rather quickly so. If you go a bit longer the pressure will drop off a little.

prs

[edctexas]

I had a problem in my 40S&W with lube and or lead slivers on the lip of the case. I needed to very carefully wipe that area. That was one of the things that pushed me toward powder coating. Brownells and Midway sell a gauge set that lets you do the "plunk test" without breaking down your pistol. The loaded cartridge drops into the gauge and if it sits flush you are good to go. I have several but one of the gauges has 45ACP, 40SW, 38 Super, and 9mm all in one. Maybe that tip will save you some effort. I run all my autoloader ammo through the "plunk test" after a bad trip to the range with rds that did not chamber.
Ed C

[JWFilips]

The C.O.L./ ( O.A.L.) specs usually listed are for known standard bullets! You are threading new waters when we are using cast boolits. For instance: On the RD .32 Acp 75 gr boolit it is short and fat The seating COL or OAL is scary short for a first timer because it comes in way too small just to get proper functioning of an auto 32 acp pistol but it is very safe. The thing that really matters is the "seating of the base of the bullet" depth ( read "case volume") this is a far more accurate measure but there is no real practical way to measure it well! Yes one could measure a known bullet Col/Oal then measure the bullet length to see where the "base" ends up in the case ( this is my method) Then if one loads a short stocky bullet of the same grain weight so it's base is located in the same place as the "Known" bullet's you are very close to the same pressure

[Mk42gunner]

SWC passed plunk test after seating it to proper depth.
the other one did not.

is the semi round 452460? seated that one all the way to 1.145 and it still does not pass the plunk test.
using Glock barrel for test.

I'm not sure of just what either of your bullets are, but neither one look like my 452460's (I have three molds 2 double cavity and one four cavity). All three of my molds are for the two lube groove ~200 grain version. Mine tend to run very close to 207 going from memory.

Robert

[prs]

I "think" the boolits he cited are in reference to the lengths listed in the Lyman Handbook and perhaps he may be trying to extrapolate a load for his RNFP design or the 68 "style" SWC he has there. If my guess is correct, I reckon JWFilips method is as good as any; but I think it best to start low on the charge and work-up with care looking for pressure signs and function. wv109323's suggestion to seat the bullet as it is designed, i.e., with the 68# style seated to expose just a bit of the full diameter portion ahead of the crimp will work IF you have a recipe to get you started. The 45 Colt boolit the OP has would be seated to the crimp groove in the Colt case, but I think a 45ACP recipe is probably available too.

prs

[Foto Joe]

Juan,

Sorry but I should have given you the AOL's that I use for those boolits. The SWC's I set to 1.250"-1.255" for my S&W 1911's. The RF's are 1.190". The SWC's feed well in anything that I load them in (1911's). The RF's on the other hand I haven't fully tested. I shot just a few in a Gvt. Model and had a failure to feed properly but didn't have enough loaded to fully investigate why. On the other hand those RF's feed flawlessly in my Officers Model. I need to get the Gvt. out and go back out and fully test 'em but I've been too involved in rifles for the last month.

Keep in mind that both of these boolits are Lee not Lyman so your mold numbers on your original post are incorrect. The molds are Lee452-200SWC and Lee452-200RF. Both drop at approximately 211 grains and are sized .452. Having said that, the AOL numbers referring to Lyman boolits won't help you a lot. By the looks of your photo's your loaded cartridges appear to be quite a bit longer than what I usually load these to. Keep in mind that too long won't blow your gun up but it will prevent reliable function or any function if too long. The trick is to load a few dummies and shorten each one by just a touch until you get the length that will "plunk" correctly. Have fun.

[MtGun44]

What fred said.

You are making CUSTOM ammunition for YOUR gun. This is primary. The only
use of OAL or COL or whatever acronym you want to use is for 1) pressure
expectation reasons with published data and 2) your own record keeping to
be able to load the same load next year.

When we are using tested pressure data, the LOA (OAL; COL) is useful directly
if you are USING THAT EXACT BOOLIT. Otherwise, it tells you where (by calculation)
the base of the boolit was in the case for that testing. If you have the same
weight boolit, but a different nose shape, you need to set the BASE OF THE BOOLIT
to the same location, not the nose - at least from a pressure standpoint.

You will possibly need to adjust the nose location (actual LOA/COL/OAL) to fit the
magazine and/or throat of the barrel.

Custom ammo - made to fit your gun, and feed in your gun, but within safe pressure
limits. Competing requirements. As soon as you use components other than
exactly what was in the powder company's recipe, you need to start working
carefully for proper pressures. Pressure is greatly dependent on the combustion
chamber volume (case volume up to the base of the boolit). Smaller combustion
chamber = higher pressures. In some small cases, like 9mm Para, a relatively
small change can raise pressures a LOT.

[jkcerda]

Juan,

Sorry but I should have given you the AOL's that I use for those boolits. The SWC's I set to 1.250"-1.255" for my S&W 1911's. The RF's are 1.190". The SWC's feed well in anything that I load them in (1911's). The RF's on the other hand I haven't fully tested. I shot just a few in a Gvt. Model and had a failure to feed properly but didn't have enough loaded to fully investigate why. On the other hand those RF's feed flawlessly in my Officers Model. I need to get the Gvt. out and go back out and fully test 'em but I've been too involved in rifles for the last month.

Keep in mind that both of these boolits are Lee not Lyman so your mold numbers on your original post are incorrect. The molds are Lee452-200SWC and Lee452-200RF. Both drop at approximately 211 grains and are sized .452. Having said that, the AOL numbers referring to Lyman boolits won't help you a lot. By the looks of your photo's your loaded cartridges appear to be quite a bit longer than what I usually load these to. Keep in mind that too long won't blow your gun up but it will prevent reliable function or any function if too long. The trick is to load a few dummies and shorten each one by just a touch until you get the length that will "plunk" correctly. Have fun.
thanks Joe, working on a few things besides the plunk test, trying to see if they feed correctly through the bullet feeder and if they feed reliably through my 1911's. just sold my Glock :p
I really appreciate you going out of your way to ship me these samples.

http://huntersandarchers.com/images/smilies/ty.gif

[fredj338]

I had a problem in my 40S&W with lube and or lead slivers on the lip of the case. I needed to very carefully wipe that area. That was one of the things that pushed me toward powder coating. Brownells and Midway sell a gauge set that lets you do the "plunk test" without breaking down your pistol. The loaded cartridge drops into the gauge and if it sits flush you are good to go. I have several but one of the gauges has 45ACP, 40SW, 38 Super, and 9mm all in one. Maybe that tip will save you some effort. I run all my autoloader ammo through the "plunk test" after a bad trip to the range with rds that did not chamber.
Ed C

This is just not right on a couple levels. Lead shaving is improper die setup. More flare & seating & crimping in two steps removes that. There is NO gage on the market that tells you correct OAL for YOUR gun. Gages do NOT have any rifling, one of the critical points to proper OAL. The other is how they feed all the way down in the mag. A gage is fine for spot checking your ammo to make sure crimp & sizing are correct, but can't help otherwise. Your barrel is the final gage. You can't plunk test in a gage. It may look fine but then hang up in your pistol if the bullet is loaded too long.

[beagle]

Okay, here's my $.02 worth. The OAL and COAL are the same. In Lyman manuals it is called out as that was the combination for the specific load given and tested in their pressure gun. It is the length or the cartridge from the base to the tip of the seated bullet. In your experiments, write it down so that you can come back and repeat a good load.
In the 9mm you must pay particular attention to it because of the small case volume. You just can't arbitrarily seat the bullet deeper for a given load as this may decrease the powder capacity and boost pressures. I've opened a few primer pockets this way.
Make a dummy round and insure that it seats in your chamber. Once there, cut back on the powder quantity at least 10% and test fire. Observe pressure signs and functioning in the case of an auto. Work your charge up to where you want to be .1 grain at a time still observing for pressure and functioning. This will have to be repeated for each design bullet you use that you don't have data for. Start right now and keep records. Case, primer, powder, sized diameter, bullet number, bullet weight, powder weight, COAL and results as to functioning, pressure and accuracy. In time you will have your own loading manual based on results from your particular gun and bullet styles. I run mine on a spreadsheet and over the years, I have accumulated a lot of data. What you are making is a "cookbook" which is repeatable for your best loads./beagle

[wv109323]

edctexas,
Was your lead ring accumulation during the reloading process or while firing the rounds.
I ran into a unique situation that caused me some problems. I needed a fat boolit for one of my 9MM's. I got the Lee 358- 125 RNFP mold and everything was fine for that pistol. I seated the bullet at the crimping groove for OAL. I did not roll crimp.
I bought a second 9MM and tried to use the same boolit. I could not do it. The boolit sized to .356 was too large for the chamber of the second pistol. The end of the chamber would shave a little lead off each boolit until lead accumulated in the chamber which eventually would not allow the slide to go into full battery. The bullet had to be seated very ,very deep to eliminate the interference between the boolit and the chamber freebore.( well past the crimping groove) This gave a small powder capacity which ran my pressures up.
This is a case where a revolver boolit was not acceptable to use in an auto. Also with a round this short, the OAL of the round was not optimal for feeding through an auto.

[prs]

So, we have:

C.O.L. which is Cartridge Overall Length and the acronym listed at the bottom of each of our pages here. So the "official" choice?

O.A.L. which is OverAll Length.


C.O.A.L. which is Cartridge OverAll Length. WV109323 and I know all about coal, it makes electricity more economically and efficiently than any other fuel and our area has the type that made(s) the best steel when coked.

A.O.L. hmmmm America On Line (You have mail!) or All Over Length?????

L.O.A. Length OverAll

I reckon we all mean the same, but we just can't remember the order of the alpha symbols.

prs

[TXGunNut]

As pointed out above published OAL's are only valid for that exact boolit or sometimes to define a maximum OAL, the plunk test best determines OAL for a given boolit . To further complicate things I use a Hornady Comparator for certain rounds so when I use COAL in my notes it designates Comparator OverAll Length.