Shipping Crude by Rail

[jcwit]

Shipping Crude by rail sure is safer than pipeline.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/02/16/west-virginia-train-derailment-sends-oil-tanker-into-river/21143251/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D613985

CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) - Emergency crews and environmental officials are responding to a train derailment in West Virginia that sent at least one tanker containing crude oil into a river and also caused a nearby house to catch fire.There were no immediate reports of injuries.
The CSX train derailed Monday afternoon in Fayette County.
West Virginia Public Safety spokesman Lawrence Messina said the tanker is leaking crude oil into the Kanawha River.
Messina said at least one and possibly more tanker cars went into the river. He also said the derailment caused a house to catch fire.
The U.S. Transportation Department is weighing tougher safety regulations for rail shipments of crude, which can ignite and result in huge fireballs.

[dakotashooter2]

Part of the problem is that our rail system, like much of our hwy system is out of date and needs massive amounts of maintenance and repair. Not saying the pipeline system id perfect but it seems like a new pipeline would probably be a better option than ans old rail system..........

[Plate plinker]

I'd rather have a pipeline than a train for sure. Seems a train has many more chances at failure.

[Maven]

The environmentalists don't want the pipeline or the trains carrying Bakken crude [oil]. After the Lac Megantic mess, they see all oil trains as "bomb trains." Btw, such trains come through my berg once a day as do many others carrying equally hazardous materials (but that doesn't get their attention or that of the press).

[butch2570]

That happened less than a mile of my job, and the route home was detoured 1.5 hrs in the snowstorm to get home, that fireball/explosion of the tanker was unbelievable , amazing that the locals that lived near the rail were not killed. 131083

[ohland]

Part of the problem is that our rail system, like much of our hwy system is out of date and needs massive amounts of maintenance and repair. Not saying the pipeline system id perfect but it seems like a new pipeline would probably be a better option than ans old rail system..........

A significant problem for grain farmers is moving their harvest by rail, competing with more traffic from the oil shipments. Once the Mississippi shuts down, that puts even more traffic on rail and highway.

Cost of shipping, lowest to highest - barge, rail, road.

[wv109323]

In WV almost all rail lines follow the river valleys. These areas are prone to ground subsidence especially during freeze and thaw cycles. Most likely that will be the cause of this accident or the next reason will be rail failure.
A folk lore tale in this same area is that a rail car of fine whiskey derailed and went into the river. Every once in a while a fisherman would luck upon a barrel of aged spirits.

[Pb Burner]

Nasty situation. I'd hate to be on the cleanup crew in this weather. Sounds like no one hurt, so that's good.

[dtknowles]

Part of the problem is that our rail system, like much of our hwy system is out of date and needs massive amounts of maintenance and repair. Not saying the pipeline system id perfect but it seems like a new pipeline would probably be a better option than ans old rail system..........

I might tend to agree with you about maintenance but by what standard, compared to what. I expect that beside Japan and Germany we have the best roads and rail in the world and a lot more that Japan and Germany.

Tim

[bhn22]

Repayment by the exalted one to Warren Buffett.

[runfiverun]

The Bakken crude oil is a bit different than most crude oils in that it is much more volatile, and will catch fire quite easily.
It is very good for mixing with other oil sources with high paraffin content as it will absorb and cut them making the components much easier to separate and recover.

Crude oil oil is not just crude oil, there are several grades and types.
I'm sitting on location in the Bakken right now fracking a well ( more of a solvent) last week I was in Utah completing a well with a much higher paraffin content, the week before that I was in wright Wyoming doing the same thing on a well better described as actual light sweet crude oil.

[starmac]

But Bammy doesn't owe millions to any pipeline owners. lol Many things much more dangerous than crude shipped by rail.

[oldlincoln]

You said it starmac, that LNG in Jumbo's is like atom bombs.

[Garyshome]

I'm surprised there are not more accidents involving the RR!

[captaint]

That's funny. " The US Transportation Department is blah, blah, blah" Right.

[Rick Hodges]

Hahaha, if they think crude oil is bad they should check the placards on most tank cars. There is stuff being transported by rail everyday that the Hazmat protocol says not to approach closer than 4000 yards upwind. Evacuation for over 12000 yds. They are clueless.

[375supermag]

Just thinking out loud here, but...

I wonder what the chances are that some of these derailments might be the work of militant environmental extremists?

I am not saying that they are responsible, but it couldn't hurt to look at all possibilities.

[GabbyM]

Just thinking out loud here, but...

I wonder what the chances are that some of these derailments might be the work of militant environmental extremists?

I am not saying that they are responsible, but it couldn't hurt to look at all possibilities.

Little less than zero I'd say. For one they don't have the brain to figure out how. Many of them can't even figure out how to properly clean themselves after using a bathroom.

[beagle]

You want to know the truth about the pipeline. Follow the money. See who owns majority of the stock in Canadian and American railroads that transports crude to our refineries. See who makes huge donations to the party that has blocked the pipeline for years. You'll find that the names are the same. I won't say who but it's easy enough to dig out of the stock world. The pipeline will move oil 1/3 cheaper than by rail and safer than by rail and once it's installed, the right of ways provide excellent game cover. Then we won't have these catastrophes./beagle

[1Shirt]

Beagle hits it on the head! Right now old uncle Warren Buffet is making a killing hauling Canadian oil by rail!
1Shirt!

[dakotashooter2]

I might tend to agree with you about maintenance but by what standard, compared to what. I expect that beside Japan and Germany we have the best roads and rail in the world and a lot more that Japan and Germany.

Tim

They are running 100 car trains on tracks that were never designed for those kinds of loads. When they dump a load of wheat it's not that big a deal but when the dump a load of oil it's a different story. I do know they surveyed the tracks in the Dakotas a few years back and if I recall much of the track was rated for speeds of 30 mph or less.

[butch2570]

They are running 100 car trains on tracks that were never designed for those kinds of loads. When they dump a load of wheat it's not that big a deal but when the dump a load of oil it's a different story. I do know they surveyed the tracks in the Dakotas a few years back and if I recall much of the track was rated for speeds of 30 mph or less. There is a partially damaged rail car and a Engine sitting on the outside set of rails, that outside track was just serviced this past summer, new ties and all the hardware, there is still piles of ties laying along side the tracks awaiting pick up and the scrap metal they have already picked up. Most of the rails here here carry at least 100 car unit trains with 100 tons of coal per unit, if they were never designed to carry that kind of weight, someone will have lots of explaining to do, because that place is crawling with EPA and Homeland Security and other Government Agencies at the moment.

[MaryB]

Rail line going through town is not rated for more than 10mph. It is that bad! And they run anhydrous ammonia down it...

[dakotashooter2]

I'm not saying that all the rail lines are in bad condition, but the average rail line in this area (Dakotas & Montana), pre-oil, probably saw 2-3 trains per day. Out east many lines see that per hour. There has been no real incentive to upgrade the rails in this area till now..........

[MtGun44]

+1 on beagle. Pipeline will save money, so the folks that make
money on RR shipment are against it.

Greenie-weenies are fools and tools.

[starmac]

LOL How many rail cars are the tracks designed for. The same load is on the tracks with one or a hundred, if the cars are carrying the same weight. They do have a load limit on the cars, and if one is found overloaded in a wreck, the shipper is responsible, instead of the railroad.

[runfiverun]

The oil shipments in No-Dak take up so much rail space they shove the farmers wheat and sunflower seed shipments to the side.
The rail service up there is built and geared for the farmers not the oil.
We really need the XL pipeline to be built.

[beagle]

Didn't want to say that but that's the way I hear it too. Glad someone is awake out there.

BTW. Check and see who owns Amtrak while you're at it./beagle


Beagle hits it on the head! Right now old uncle Warren Buffet is making a killing hauling Canadian oil by rail!
1Shirt!

[MtGun44]

Buffet is a big supporter of the current administration, so
they are filling his bank account by stopping his competition,
which is the pipeline.

[Dale in Louisiana]

My employer is converting one of our under-utilized natural gas pipelines to liquid service. Instead of pushing gas from south to north, this one will now move crude from north to south. We go up into Illinois where it will tie into a new pipeline being run from North Dakota. I get a few multiple thousand horsepower electric motors to play with.

dale in Louisiana

[10x]

The pipeline / rail shipping safety debate is not over safety but who gets the cash flow from shipping.
pipelines have a far safer record per 100,000 tons of material shipped than railways. Recent events (fires and oils spills) in Canada have underlined that.

[dakotashooter2]

There are at leasta couple different size "rails" used to accommodate different levels of traffic. It's not so much the weight of the individual cars on the rail as the duration of that weight and flex of the track as cars pass over it. I have often seen up to 2" of defection in a track when a train is running over it. It will move up and down with each cars passing. Gotta cause some metal fatigue at some point. When you look down some tracks it is like looking at waves on a lake or a snake slithering along.

The elevator operators around here are not happy. We rent out 10 grain bins to the elevator. They are usually full for about 6-9 months then hauled back to the elevator and loaded onto rail cars. The bins have been full for 18 months now.........

I suspect the RR makes more money hauling oil than grain so guess what gets the priority?

[MtGun44]

No doubt oil shipping makes more money than grain. I wonder how the trucking
cost of shipping grain compares to the rail cost? It would have to be a lot more
expensive in labor costs. One train could haul a hundred semis worth and that
is with 3-4 workers not 100 drivers, plus has to use a lot less fuel overall to roll
steel wheels on steel rails compared to rubber tires on asphalt and concrete.

[GabbyM]

When I hauled alcohol for ADM they told us it cost five times more to truck it than rail shipment.

[MtGun44]

Wow, 5X as much. That would sure make it unpleasant to have to ship grain that
way compared to by rail. I can see why it sits in the bins.

[xman777]

Well, if you want the pipeline to fail, create a rail accident. Just sayin...

This could go either way. The protagonists could say pipeline=safer and the antagonists could say fireball=fireball.

What a mess it is.

[MaryB]

Most pipeline failures do not result in a fireball, just a mess. And going over the sensitive ground they could easily add a second over liner to the pipeline that would funnel any spills to collection points.