30 BR Range Report

[dtknowles]

I shot some of the bullets that Bjorn sent me, XCB Linotype checked and sized to 0.309" lubed with Carnauba Red. All shooting was at the hundred yard targets. First time with Carnauba Red, first time 0.309".

0.310" shot better.

130905

It really wants to group but some are still getting away.

Since some people don't like 5 shot groups and for my own interest I did graphical composites of the groups since they were all shot to the same point of aim. If I throw out two shots the remaining 18 are at 2 MOA.

130906

I shot the #3 in .22 Hornet with the 45 gr. NOE bullet some as well.

130907

Nothing to really crow about but not bad either.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Been looking forward to this, Tim, thanks for posting results. How fast do you think they were going?

Gear

[btroj]

Shoot whatever number you want per group. I'm not gonna knock it unless you start shooting great one shot groups

I understand the "wants to group but some get away", I have had the same thing.

[runfiverun]

I generally shoot 7 shot groups.

[btroj]

What he means is he shoots 10 and throws away the inner 3. H never did understand this small group thing....

I went to shooting 10 for God knows what reason. Probably to see better if I had a solid core group or just lots of randomness. I am too orderly to shoot 7 shot groups, my ammo boxes don't have 7 to a row.

[geargnasher]

Five is usually good, seven is better. How many times have we seen great five-shot groups that are repeatable with a slight cooldown, but how many times have we been going for ten and the last five start to really open things up? Do whatever makes you happy, I'm not going to criticize because it isn't me anyone else is trying to satisfy. Generally, one can see what the load is going to do in five and that's plenty good enough until one really wants to prove out the system.

Gear

[geargnasher]

What he means is he shoots 10 and throws away the inner 3. H never did understand this small group thing....

I went to shooting 10 for God knows what reason. Probably to see better if I had a solid core group or just lots of randomness. I am too orderly to shoot 7 shot groups, my ammo boxes don't have 7 to a row.

Same reason I usually use five!

Details, Tim, give us details! You know how we are...

Gear

[cbrick]

Tim, just so I don't need to start looking through who knows how many threads and hundreds of posts, What was the rifle and the load?

I always use five shot groups when starting out with a new load. 5 shots is plenty to see if a load warrants further testing. If a load looks promising I'll load more and maybe shoot 10 shot groups. I'll know in 5 shots if the load is worth it, if it isn't and I loaded 10 or more I have wasted a lot of time in the loading and a lot of components. I have no interest in whether someone else likes that method, they are free to do their testing in a manor that pleases them, so am I.

Rick

[dtknowles]

Been looking forward to this, Tim, thanks for posting results. How fast do you think they were going?

Gear

Same powder change a different day with different bullet diameter and lube was just over 2400 fps.

Tim

[C. Latch]

The purpose of shooting groups is to capture the variation inherent in a particular rifle/load/optic system. You absolutely cannot do this with any success with three shots, or even five shots - but what you CAN do is shoot three shots and see if they form what shows promise of being a tight group, and either reject the load based on its lack or performance, or mark it as a load worthy of further testing, then load up more of that load to test later.

In other words, three shots can show you a bad load (which is useful info) but it can never really show you a good load. Seven is better, ten starts to really mean something, and a composite of three ten-shot groups really tells you what a load will do.

Now, having said all of that, do I shoot three ten-shot groups of everything I shoot? Of course not.

[Doc Highwall]

Tim, just so I don't need to start looking through who knows how many threads and hundreds of posts, What was the rifle and the load?

I always use five shot groups when starting out with a new load. 5 shots is plenty to see if a load warrants further testing. If a load looks promising I'll load more and maybe shoot 10 shot groups. I'll know in 5 shots if the load is worth it, if it isn't and I loaded 10 or more I have wasted a lot of time in the loading and a lot of components. I have no interest in whether someone else likes that method, they are free to do their testing in a manor that pleases them, so am I.

Rick

Same here, 5 shot groups to start then increase to 10 shots then 20 shot groups.

[dtknowles]

Same reason I usually use five!

Details, Tim, give us details! You know how we are...

Gear

The brass is many times shot 30 BR form from 300 Sav. It was unsized, I decapped, primed, charged (35 grains BLC2) and the bullets seated (the bullets are seated long and hit the lead and are pushed back into the case on chambering). They were just snug except for 5 that were just a little tigher. Every shot was to the same point of aim, no holding off for wind, wind was very light. I fired 4 fouling shots using rejected bullets before I fired the first group. The second group, my rear bag was not really stable. I dry patched the bore between the second five and the third five, told me nothing. Cold range and target check as well before the third five so I fired 3 more fouling shots and the first two were a bit wild but they were rejects anyway.

Third and Fourth 5 were tighter. Finally got the bags settled in right.

What details have I left out.

I have discrided the gun before but not everyone knows, I guess.

It is a second hand benchrest rifle for score. Sort of old school and because I got it second hand I expect it is uncompletive but seems like a great test bed for cast bullets. It is a Rem 600 chambered for 30 BR long, action is glued into a sleeve and the whole thing glued into some sort of fiberglass bench rest stock. The only thing I know about the barrel is it is stainless and 1in16 twist. It has a very nice very light trigger. I put a 40 power Leupold fix power scope on it. The gun has no safety or ejector.

Tim

[dtknowles]

The purpose of shooting groups is to capture the variation inherent in a particular rifle/load/optic system. You absolutely cannot do this with any success with three shots, or even five shots - but what you CAN do is shoot three shots and see if they form what shows promise of being a tight group, and either reject the load based on its lack or performance, or mark it as a load worthy of further testing, then load up more of that load to test later.

In other words, three shots can show you a bad load (which is useful info) but it can never really show you a good load. Seven is better, ten starts to really mean something, and a composite of three ten-shot groups really tells you what a load will do.

Now, having said all of that, do I shoot three ten-shot groups of everything I shoot? Of course not.


Just curious, did anyone understand the composite graphical 10 shot groups. I could have shot 2ea. 10 shot groups or doing what I did effectively get 4ea. 10 shot groups and for the added benefit of getting 4ea. 5 shot groups as well and of course the composite of all 20 shots. The worse 10 shot group was the same size as the 20 shot group. Two bullets defined those two groups, one each from the first two 5 shot groups. This combination often puts two shots touching.

Tim

[cbrick]

Yes, understood the targets. Would like to know what the rifle is though.

Rick

[dtknowles]

Yes, understood the targets. Would like to know what the rifle is though.

Rick

See the end of post #12

Tim

[btroj]

Have you tried .311?

[dtknowles]

Have you tried .311?

I now have tried 0.308, 0.309, 0.310 and 0.311. Looks like 0.310 is the best. I thought 0.311 would be best based on the pound cast but it was hard to measure.

Tim

Tim

[btroj]

Targets rarely lie.

[dtknowles]

Targets rarely lie.

Theory will get you close but testing will get you there :-)

Tim

[btroj]

Yes sir. Gotta do the work at the casting, loading, and shooting bench to know for sure. Now if I could speed the aging of my bullets......

I have a PID on the way that will make heat treating accurate and repeatable. That will be a boon to testing for me.

[dtknowles]

I know that you can't just willy nilly throw out data points but I think the first two 5 shot groups are not representative. I had just swapped the front bag and it was not settled in the first group it was rocking side to side. The second group had that problem plus the rear bag had shifted during the string. By groups 3 and 4 I had everything under control. That is a 10 shot group of 1.75 inches. This is a standard that I will be working to improve, going back to 0.310" size and working with alloy, powder, neck tension and seating depth.

Tim

[44man]

I agree that three shots is enough to see a trend. I shoot five to keep rounds even in the box. If I load 20 with one load and see the first three bad, I have wasted the rest.

[dtknowles]

Something to think about. It might just be that others are more consistent than I am but if each of these 4 five shot groups had been a different powder charge it could lead you to believe that the powder charge for group 4 would be the best but of course they are all the same powder charge. I know we would go back a load a bunch more to test if we settled on that powder charge but just something to think about.

Tim

[Hamish]

dt, looking at the middle pic, composite, I am seeing two distinct POI groups for all six groupings. If I had shot those groups I would attribute it to two distinct patterns of settling into the gun. I have seen it in my own shooting, but hesitate to positively label that as the reason, but I strongly suspect it.

[dtknowles]

dt, looking at the middle pic, composite, I am seeing two distinct POI groups for all six groupings. If I had shot those groups I would attribute it to two distinct patterns of settling into the gun. I have seen it in my own shooting, but hesitate to positively label that as the reason, but I strongly suspect it.

I can find nothing with the gun to blame, the bedding is glued in and sound, the barrel is free floated so it has to be my bench technique or the ammo.

Tim

[geargnasher]

I've shot plenty of two-cluster groups, usually it's cured with a change to a lube that doesn't build/purge in the system used. Experience has also taught me that lube is one of the very last things to suspect....unless you're using Carnauba Red in a small bore in the winter, then it becomes one of the first.

Gear

[Bjornb]

Yes sir. Gotta do the work at the casting, loading, and shooting bench to know for sure. Now if I could speed the aging of my bullets......

I have a PID on the way that will make heat treating accurate and repeatable. That will be a boon to testing for me.

Brad,
have you tried shooting freshly cast bullets against aged ones? Just sayin'; I have found that certain alloys are less sensitive to aging.

[cbrick]

Now if I could speed the aging of my bullets......


Brad, have you tried shooting freshly cast bullets against aged ones? Just sayin'; I have found that certain alloys are less sensitive to aging.

What will determine the time/hardening curve is the percentage of Sb. The lower the Sb percentage the longer the time curve. With at least 2% Sb (typical CWW) 3-4 days will nearly do it with minor very slow increase after that. 1% may take 2-3 weeks. The metals industry uses 5%+ Sb to reduce the time curve to several hours to a day in things like wet cell battery plates. Sn will reduce the final BHN that can be achieved and speed the age softening time curve somewhat but your looking at like 6% Sn & up.

Do a side by side group test of 2%+ Sb alloy aged 3 days and 3-4 weeks and see if there is a difference.

Rick

[1Shirt]

Agree with 44Man! Three will usually give you trend. That said, seems like if I am going to blow a 5 or more shot group, about 8 out of 10 times it will be shot #4 that goes to He!! in a handbasket.
1Shirt!

[Fluxed]

Were you shooting over flags? Without wind flags you're not going to get to the potential of the rifle and load. Even a mildly breezy day with normal variation in force and direction will scatter your groups like what you show. I see a lot of horizontal in the groups you posted.

The test that has become pretty much the standard of highest level rifle accuracy is the aggregate of five five shot groups. IMO, five shot groups give you a chance to concentrate closely on each one of all five shots in each group. They break up the work of shooting enough shots to gain statistical significance for the larger sample. But when just searching for a general area of powder charge, bullet and seating depth, three shots will help you quickly identify the bad from the potentially good.

[dtknowles]

I've shot plenty of two-cluster groups, usually it's cured with a change to a lube that doesn't build/purge in the system used. Experience has also taught me that lube is one of the very last things to suspect....unless you're using Carnauba Red in a small bore in the winter, then it becomes one of the first.

Gear

Winter here is like spring in most of the U.S. I was shooting in shirt sleeves but it was my first time with CR.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Were you shooting over flags? Without wind flags you're not going to get to the potential of the rifle and load. Even a mildly breezy day with normal variation in force and direction will scatter your groups like what you show. I see a lot of horizontal in the groups you posted.

The test that has become pretty much the standard of highest level rifle accuracy is the aggregate of five five shot groups. IMO, five shot groups give you a chance to concentrate closely on each one of all five shots in each group. They break up the work of shooting enough shots to gain statistical significance for the larger sample. But when just searching for a general area of powder charge, bullet and seating depth, three shots will help you quickly identify the bad from the potentially good.

I used primitive wind flags, streamers on 3 foot bamboo poles at 25, 50, and 75 yards. The wind was almost nonexistent. I have been shooting over wind flags for a little more than a year now. The wind did pick up a bit when I shot the .22 hornet and I was playing with holding off for the wind as practice instead of waiting on a particular condition. The horizontal in the first two .30 caliber groups I think is because of my problems with my bags, the gun was rocking.

Tim

[44man]

Something else will mess you up is if your scope is strong enough to see holes. You see a tight group forming and will blow shots. I have done that too many times, your mind goes but mine was always like that anyway! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[btroj]

Brad,
have you tried shooting freshly cast bullets against aged ones? Just sayin'; I have found that certain alloys are less sensitive to aging.

I have not. I would love to do that but the realities of time prevent it, for now.
Bob has long pestered me to cast some bullets of various heat treat and Fire them over a period of time. Fire them the day heat treated, each day for a few days, and every few days for a month or so. Watch what happens to hardness over time and see how groups change too.

I agree that some alloys need little, if any aging but some require far more. Key is to know how the specific alloy you are using behaves.

[44man]

That would drive me nuts too.
I do notice rounds that have been loaded for a long time never shoot as good. I have wondered if the brass and tension has relaxed over time or whether it is the alloy changing.
brass is funny, one time I annealed, turned new 30-06 brass into 6.5X55 when we could not find any. I trimmed, turned and annealed again before loading. Later I found every neck cracked just sitting in the MTM box.
The head size is different but they worked and shot very well when first loaded but just sitting, they went to pot.

[dtknowles]

Something else will mess you up is if your scope is strong enough to see holes. You see a tight group forming and will blow shots. I have done that too many times, your mind goes but mine was always like that anyway! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

You can shoot the way that works for you but always watch every shot shooting from the bench. If the scope on the rifle or pistol is not strong enough to see the holes then I use a spotting scope. If the pressure of seeing a good group forming will cause you to mess up, well I would expect a seasoned competitor like yourself could handle a little pressure :-)

Tim

[44man]

You can shoot the way that works for you but always watch every shot shooting from the bench. If the scope on the rifle or pistol is not strong enough to see the holes then I use a spotting scope. If the pressure of seeing a good group forming will cause you to mess up, well I would expect a seasoned competitor like yourself could handle a little pressure :-)

Tim
My best groups were shot blind without seeing a thing. I even screwed up with my Mark II Ruger.131126Scoped at 25, seen 9 shots make a ragged hole and went to pot at the last shot.
Never had pressure at IHMSA, spotter marked hits for me to adjust for wind, etc.
Yeah it can affect us. Miss during archery and you tighten up and just miss more.
We never got uptight at IHMSA, joked and laughed all the time but it disturbed other shooters no end. Same with field archery, good friends and jokes and ribbing without indoor pressures. We shot better. Once shot 292 out of 300 on the old Ohio field course with a little Red Wing hunting bow. I lost because back then they used the handicap system, like bowling. Soon done away with.
You can pressure yourself if you see too much. You might tighten your grip or fool with the bags with your rifle.
I am not immune either. I hold very tight with revolvers but am relaxed other then that. Pressure at IHMSA was single shots, you have 2 minutes for 5 shots so you go like crazy between shots but must get calm for the shot.
Watching Pete trying to get a chap stick in his gun was hilarious.
Have you ever archery hunted deer? Whole body will go nuts and you shake like mad. I got over it with tension on the string and have over 220 archery kills. No problems with guns at all but have friends that are great shots that can not hit a deer with anything.
You can get buck fever watching those holes appear.

[detox]

I bet a good snug fitting RCBS 165gr Sil bullet will shoot better in that gun. You really need to do another good pound cast to check throating diameter and angles. My gun likes the 30XCB, but it has a worn loose .3115 diameter and .150 long leade. Bullet must be seated long in the case to touch rifling.

[dtknowles]

My best groups were shot blind without seeing a thing. I even screwed up with my Mark II Ruger.131126Scoped at 25, seen 9 shots make a ragged hole and went to pot at the last shot.
Never had pressure at IHMSA, spotter marked hits for me to adjust for wind, etc.
Yeah it can affect us. Miss during archery and you tighten up and just miss more.
We never got uptight at IHMSA, joked and laughed all the time but it disturbed other shooters no end. Same with field archery, good friends and jokes and ribbing without indoor pressures. We shot better. Once shot 292 out of 300 on the old Ohio field course with a little Red Wing hunting bow. I lost because back then they used the handicap system, like bowling. Soon done away with.
You can pressure yourself if you see too much. You might tighten your grip or fool with the bags with your rifle.
I am not immune either. I hold very tight with revolvers but am relaxed other then that. Pressure at IHMSA was single shots, you have 2 minutes for 5 shots so you go like crazy between shots but must get calm for the shot.
Watching Pete trying to get a chap stick in his gun was hilarious.
Have you ever archery hunted deer? Whole body will go nuts and you shake like mad. I got over it with tension on the string and have over 220 archery kills. No problems with guns at all but have friends that are great shots that can not hit a deer with anything.
You can get buck fever watching those holes appear.

I'm not a bow hunter, have not shot 5 arrows in the last 30 years. As far as the shakes or sweats or buck fever. I have hunted very little, I can't remember ever missing, except some crows that were out of reach for the shotgun load. Never saw a deer in season so I never shot one.

As far as pressure, not sure which was the most stressful my Saxophone solo before a crowded auditorium or sitting at the Cryo Loading Console on launch day for the Space Shuttle. I was able to tell the launch director Bob Sieck that the ET was go for launch without choking, "ET's go, Bob". I don't get very excited about small groups, they are nice and are why I shoot but it does not get too me.

I was never in combat or in a life threating situation. I do get a sweaty upper lip in the dentist chair :-)

Tim

[dtknowles]

.........You can pressure yourself if you see too much. You might tighten your grip or fool with the bags with your rifle...........Pressure at IHMSA was single shots, you have 2 minutes for 5 shots so you go like crazy between shots but must get calm for the shot...

I understand what you are saying, when I shot Smallbore Hunters Pistol one of the guys in the club competed with a Contender, the rhythm must be a challenge. It was a while ago but I think we shot the whole bank of 10 targets in one go, don't remember the time limit but I was using a High Standard Olympic and don't remember being pressed for time.

On the not watching each shot, I shot my smallest groups watching the shots (will find the targets and post the pictures, jacketed bullets), not just after, I actually watched the hole appear in the target. I can't change my grip, I only touch the trigger guard and the trigger. As far as fiddle with the bags, if things are going well all I do is squeeze the rear bag to put the crosshairs on the point of aim. If you are doing it right with the follow through you don't even blink, don't move a muscle, the gun rides the bags while the hole appears or best does not because it went thru the same hole, the cross hairs end up where they did for the last shot, push the gun back to the stop and the cross hairs are back very close to the point of aim. 40 power scope, it is hard to not see the holes at 100 yards and it is a lot easier to aim precisely with that much power and a fine crosshair.

The 30 BR with the XCB, it is very hard to shoot like that as it recoils so much it moves the rear bag and really tries to rock the front bag. I will talk this a little more in the next post as someone suggested a different bullet.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I bet a good snug fitting RCBS 165gr Sil bullet will shoot better in that gun. You really need to do another good pound cast to check throating diameter and angles. My gun likes the 30XCB, but it has a worn loose .3115 diameter and .150 long leade. Bullet must be seated long in the case to touch rifling.

I don't think I need another pound cast, I still have to one I did. Can you explain more about why the 165 SIL might fit better? The XCB touches the rifling with all the grooves in the neck of the case. I really want a lighter bullet and that is why I have not bought a XCB mould. If I had a bullet in the 130 to 140 gr. range I would be much happier. To much recoil, not enough velocity, takes up too much powder space, just not the right bullet for this gun. I am still interested in your ideas on fit.

Tim

[dtknowles]

This is my smallest 100 yard group, shot with a rifle almost identical to the 30 BR only in 6mm PPC, a used uncompetitive Benchrest for Group rifle. I think it was 65 gr. Bergers and BLC2 but could have been Reloader 10X


131156

I think it measured 0.21"

Tim

[44man]

Yeah, same thing, speak for a crowd and you stutter. Blank stare and forget what to say. Your face will flush.
But break in my house and you will get center punched, was in the military and fear no creep. I was the only only one that kept the 1911 in the bull, all others sprayed the ground. I won the 500 KD range and company trophy with one shot out of the x with my M1, Had expert in every weapon.
But never try to make me talk to a hall full of people.
Yeah, I am old enough to know the M1. I do not want a Mattel toy.

[44man]

This is my smallest 100 yard group, shot with a rifle almost identical to the 30 BR only in 6mm PPC, a used uncompetitive Benchrest for Group rifle. I think it was 65 gr. Bergers and BLC2 but could have been Reloader 10X


131156

I think it measured 0.21"

Tim
BR's are wonderful along with PPC's they are just RIGHT.

[Doc Highwall]

131170Here is a five shot group that my brother in law shot with my Remington 40X in 7.62NATO in his first match ever. The first three shots made one small hole, then the wind gusted enough on the fourth shot to move a hard case and soft cases blowing it out of the group, and the fifth shot went into the first three.

The four shots measure something like .154 and was shot with the SAECO #315 bullet.

[dtknowles]

This is all four groups from that load test.

131171

I adjusted the sights after the first group.

If someone tells me that cast shoot as good as jacketed is going to have a hard time proving it to me.

Tim

[frnkeore]

I understand the recoil issue but, the lighter you go, the lower will be the BC. The RCBS 150 gr would be the next step down in weight but, your starting to get into the pistol type BC with it and the 311465. You could also try the 311359 bullet but, it has a BC of about .168 @ 1850 fps, it could go up a little with it's sharp nose at higher velocity. The RCBS and the 311466 have BC's in the .220 range at around 2000 fps.

HV is a double edged sword as far as bullet design goes. As seen in the XCB with it's short ogive, the faster it goes, the lower it's BC. The lighter you go, the lower the BC and the BC picks up with heavier bullets but, so does the recoil.

For accuracy and less recoil, that 160 gr bore rider at lower velocity might be the ticket but, only less weight and lower BC will get you HV and low recoil.

Frank

[44man]

Just super. i feel proud to be in good company.

[dtknowles]

I understand the recoil issue but, the lighter you go, the lower will be the BC. The RCBS 150 gr would be the next step down in weight but, your starting to get into the pistol type BC with it and the 311465. You could also try the 311359 bullet but, it has a BC of about .168 @ 1850 fps, it could go up a little with it's sharp nose at higher velocity. The RCBS and the 311466 have BC's in the .220 range at around 2000 fps.

HV is a double edged sword as far as bullet design goes. As seen in the XCB with it's short ogive, the faster it goes, the lower it's BC. The lighter you go, the lower the BC and the BC picks up with heavier bullets but, so does the recoil.

For accuracy and less recoil, that 160 gr bore rider at lower velocity might be the ticket but, only less weight and lower BC will get you HV and low recoil.

Frank

I am going to try some more with the heavy bullets and new technique of shouldering the gun like I do shooting my other rifles. I know that the XCB was designed with longer range shooting in mind so the BC was important. I am really just playing around and don't really know why velocity is important to my shooting but it seems to be something people here are messing about with so I figured give it a go.

Tim

[tomme boy]

Tim, why not a 311466? It should be light enough. From what has been posted it likes to be shot fast.

[detox]

I don't think I need another pound cast, I still have to one I did. Can you explain more about why the 165 SIL might fit better? The XCB touches the rifling with all the grooves in the neck of the case. I really want a lighter bullet and that is why I have not bought a XCB mould. If I had a bullet in the 130 to 140 gr. range I would be much happier. To much recoil, not enough velocity, takes up too much powder space, just not the right bullet for this gun. I am still interested in your ideas on fit.

Tim

Usually 30BR rifles have a very tight throat when set up for jacketed (.3083 diameter and short leade less than .090 long). This smaller .3083 diameter helps center the jacketed bullet better before launch. This works good for jacketed or the .309 diameter RCBS 165 Sil.


The 30xcb bullet will do lots better in your 40x 308 NATO chambered rifle. My Remington VS also has the larger NATO chamber and bullet shoots great. Powders used are 4759, Varget, V140. Bullets are sized and gas check seated nose first thru RCBS sizer (.3113) and hand dipped in thinned alox. Jam bullet into rifling when chambered, this will require seating bullet longer in case.

Ideal band size after sizing is usually - .0000-.0005 smaller than leade diameter.

[dtknowles]

Tim, why not a 311466? It should be light enough. From what has been posted it likes to be shot fast.

Bjorn sent me some 311465 (the 122 gr. shorter version). I did not get to test a lot of variation with that bullet but the few that I tested did not shoot great. Nobody here seems to be a fan of Loverin style bullets. I think 311466 and 311465 might work with more effort on load development. So many different bullets. I know some people have a lot of moulds. I have too much stuff already and want to be selective about what I add to my collection.

[dtknowles]

Usually 30BR rifles have a very tight throat when set up for jacketed (.3083 diameter and short leade less than .090 long). This smaller .3083 diameter helps center the jacketed bullet better before launch. This works good for jacketed or the .309 diameter RCBS 165 Sil.


The 30xcb bullet will do lots better in your 40x 308 NATO chambered rifle. My Remington VS also has the larger NATO chamber and bullet shoots great. Powders used are 4759, Varget, V140. Bullets are sized and gas check seated nose first thru RCBS sizer (.3113) and hand dipped in thinned alox. Jam bullet into rifling when chambered, this will require seating bullet longer in case.

Ideal band size after sizing is usually - .0000-.0005 smaller than leade diameter.

The 40x in 308 was someone else's post. I think you are right about the short lead but mine is a bit bigger in diameter it could be from erosion as this is a used gun.

Tim

[btroj]

Biggest issue I have with heavier bullets is barrel torque. I will give up BC to keep the rifle on the bags better. At 100 yards how much does BC matter?

[MT Chambers]

My .30 BR. tells me that it is the most inherently accurate cast bullet caliber, mine is built on a Savage action with match grade Shilen 1-12 twist bl., with trigger upgrades. The Eagan MX-3 is most accurate with 28 grs. of Varget, I use Lapua 6mm br. brass that I have to expand and outside neck turn. With the OPs rifle, I think he just has to try diff. bullets at around 1800fps, one of them will "click".

[dtknowles]

My .30 BR. tells me that it is the most inherently accurate cast bullet caliber, mine is built on a Savage action with match grade Shilen 1-12 twist bl., with trigger upgrades. The Eagan MX-3 is most accurate with 28 grs. of Varget, I use Lapua 6mm br. brass that I have to expand and outside neck turn. With the OPs rifle, I think he just has to try diff. bullets at around 1800fps, one of them will "click".

I guess I could back down to 1800 fps but I was going for the high velocity with cast bullet thing and am around 2400 fps right now and was thinking of going higher.

Tim

[dtknowles]

My .30 BR. tells me that it is the most inherently accurate cast bullet caliber, mine is built on a Savage action with match grade Shilen 1-12 twist bl., with trigger upgrades. The Eagan MX-3 is most accurate with 28 grs. of Varget, I use Lapua 6mm br. brass that I have to expand and outside neck turn. With the OPs rifle, I think he just has to try diff. bullets at around 1800fps, one of them will "click".

Can you share more, I am not familiar with the bullet, what alloy do you use? What do you use for a lube and what diameter? What size groups do you get?

Tim

[frnkeore]

Biggest issue I have with heavier bullets is barrel torque. I will give up BC to keep the rifle on the bags better. At 100 yards how much does BC matter?

This is the answer:

Both bullet start at 2700 fps. 90 deg cross wind @ 10 mph

BC = .25 (XCB)

Yd 100 vel Drop Drift

100 - 2342 - 2.86 - 1.86

200 - 2020 - 12.13 - 6.42

BC = .38

100 - 2461 - 2.78 - 1.34

200 - 2242 - 11.33 - 4.17

This is why I always take BC into account when selecting a bullet.

Frank

[vmxwife]

With the odd flyer. You are right on the cusp of perfection. You are either too fast or too slow for the bullet and the barrel. Change your powder charge up or down to fine tune it.

[MT Chambers]

The MX-3 I have looks quite similar to 311299 but is nose pour and an orig. Eagan single cav. brass mold, I use a redding neck sizer bushing die and an RCBS comp. in-line seating die and it shoots under 1" when I do things right. I have over 30 molds in .30 cal. so am always trying dif. molds at diff. seating depths but don't play with the Varget load and don't need to increase velocity, at least not yet. I got a lot of my ideas from old issues of the "Fouling shot", the CBA's mag that shows winning loads from cast bullet BR shooters. All my tests to date have been with Star sized bullets to .310" using carnauba red lube, most of the designs tried are bore riders.