cast bullet testing advice pls

[Maninga]

Hi All,

I have been casting for 303 british and have epoxy coated them. here are some details...

Dropping from cast @ .3155 @ bands .303 @ head(Wheel Weights, ideally I wanted .314, I may resize later.)

Epoxy coated = between .317 - .318 @ bands .306 @ head

I will be apply gas check and lube which should increase the weight to about (on uncoated proj) 175-176gr and I will be using ADI AR2207 powder starting @ 17gr

If I decide not to resize the coated bullets will there be issues if I run them through @ .317/.318? Being just paint I dont see the problem?
see photos for test results

Cast bullet un-coated. I have carboned the proj to show where the barrel comes into contact with the first band. The proj seat just past the first lube grove.
130821


130822

This image shows the epoxy after I removed the proj from the casing. Is this supposed to happen?

130824


The below pic shows the coating withstanding the hammer smash test
130825

I'd love to hear from people in the know. This is my first time casting/loading.

[Yodogsandman]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not sure of what happened, looking at the photos. All I see is that your bands are a little scuffed. Did you bell the case mouth slightly, to allow the boolit to enter the case without shaving?

A pound cast of your chamber would give much more information. How to do it, is in a sticky here.

Did you have a gas check on the base of your boolit before seating? Then lost it in the case when you removed the boolit? Your results will be much better if you use a gas check crimped to the base.

I have no experience with the powder that you've listed. It seems very low though. If it's a medium to slow burning powder and under 85% case fill, you might need to use a filler like a Dacron tuft to position the powder towards the primer for consistent powder burn. Please read the sticky on that, also.

[bnelson06]

Not belling the case mouth will do that

[Maninga]

I'm not sure of what happened, looking at the photos. All I see is that your bands are a little scuffed. Did you bell the case mouth slightly, to allow the boolit to enter the case without shaving?

Yes I did bell/flare the case mouth, the projectile did not shave but the paint got scuffed.


A pound cast of your chamber would give much more information. How to do it, is in a sticky here.

I flared a case and seated a proj just enough to seat without falling out and loaded it into the chamber. I gently pulled the round out of the chamber and got my seating depth. I'll look into the pound casting of the chamber to.


Did you have a gas check on the base of your boolit before seating? Then lost it in the case when you removed the boolit? Your results will be much better if you use a gas check crimped to the base.

No I did not gas check the test rounds in the original photos. The idea was to coat the projectiles to avoid using a gas check (this is what I have been reading about coated bullets any way. "Coated bullets don't require gas check or lube" wiederladerTv on Youtube... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiFxAPtx4c0

New test round with gas checked crimped on. FYI Gas check measured in @ .320 prior to crimping and .319 post crimp
130921

Projectile sitting in a flared case mouth prior to seating.
130922


After pulling the bullet out of the case the bands are scuff free! Winning! They still measure out at the original .318 @ the bands

130925
Gas check got stuck in the case.
130928




I have no experience with the powder that you've listed. It seems very low though. If it's a medium to slow burning powder and under 85% case fill, you might need to use a filler like a Dacron tuft to position the powder towards the primer for consistent powder burn. Please read the sticky on that, also.

ADI AR2207 is a fast burning powder recommended by my gun smith for my 174g cast bullet. 17g is the starting load to give me around 1600fps -1700fps I will work up from there. I definately will be using a filler of some sort.


The coated projectiles still seem to big for my barrel/Grooves. When I slugged my barrel the grooves are .313 so I would need .315 which is what my mould is dropping but coated adds an extra 2 thous. But i will assume if the gas check will pass through the barrel the paint should have no effect on projectile travel through the bore and will moosh down with the lead as it enters the barrel post firing.

[Yodogsandman]

Will a dummy load with that boolit fit in your rifle? If it will, try shooting it with your load. I found that 2207 is very close to IMR4198.

See if this thread on 303's helps...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121753-gt-303

[scottfire1957]

Pardon me, but have you shot them to see if they work? I mean, really, that will tell the tale.

[Bullwolf]

Little confused here, but how are you "crimping" on your gas checks?

Are you using a sizing die to crimp your gas checks, or just pressing on a gas check, seating the booit and crimping the loaded cartridge in a crimp die later?

I typically use a Lee push through lube and sizing kit to seat gas checks onto the boolits gas check shank. You can use a lubesizer too, if you have one.

http://www.titanreloading.com/image/cache/data/Products/90044-250x250.jpg
http://www.titanreloading.com/lube-sizing-kit/314-lee-bullet-lubricating-sizing-kit

I've dabbled a little with painted and epoxy coated boolits, but I had to size mine as the coatings tend to make them too large. I only used epoxy coated boolits with handgun cartridges though.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52572&d=1311909465

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52610&d=1313305073

The painted boolits worked fine without lube or gas checks in a handgun application, but they took lots more work to make than just tumble lubing my cast lead boolits.

Minor disclaimer here, I am no expert at coating boolits, I've only dabbled some with epoxy coated boolits in a few handgun calibers. (9mm in the above example)

If you scroll down the forum a ways to the Coatings and Alternatives section...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives

You will find there's lots more information about coatings there, you might consider posting in that section of the forum If you don't get the kind of feedback you are looking for here.

My coated 9mm pistol boolits gave no leading and accuracy at mild velocities 1050-1100 FPS without lube or gas checks, but I doubt that they would have worked as well at rifle velocities. Once you get over a certain threshold, it becomes harder to make a boolit work well without using a gas check.



A trick many use to prevent shaving, is to put a mild inside chamfer on the case mouth along with belling or flaring. I use a quick hand swipe with an RCBS Chamfer & Deburring tool for this, but there are other tools and ways to accomplish this same thing.

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/skus/p_749003248_1.jpg

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/143728/rcbs-chamfer-and-deburring-tool-17-to-45-caliber

A light inside case mouth chamfer will help prevent the sharp case edge from shaving lead, or your boolit coating when you are seating a boolit.

http://www.ericlawler.com/moredwo/pictures/reloading-case-preparation/sinclair-case-mouth-chamfering-tool.jpg

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv6/TresMonCeret/snipershidech1016.jpg




- Bullwolf

[Wayne Smith]

Yes, crimp on the gas check with a sizing die. If you have a lubesizer you and use it to only crimp. If not you can get a Lee sizing die just big enough to crimp it on, or one that will size the boolit to .315. Your barrel will do that anyway.

It is worth shooting them at .318 and also sizing down to .315/316 and shooting them to see if there is an accuracy difference.

Sounds like it is time for the range!

[Yodogsandman]

I can't find any listings for a sizing die that's between .315" to .318". You might have to order a .314" and open it up to what you want or need.

[popper]

Some of the coatings will get that scratch ring on the base, GC eliminates it. It's usually due to loading if the scratched part doesn't reach all the way to the base, else that heavy crimp you are using will cause it when pulled. I've seen it with HF powder coating, not with better (tougher) powder. I had some sample 'Blue' 40SW that did that as the epoxy they use is softer - it leaded badly. Try the dacron from dog chew toys or the craft store, stuff up to the base of the neck - lightly tamped. I got almost 2K fps in 308 marlin & PC'd 150 gr PB boolit - NOT a GC design. I did get decent accuracy with a 168 sans GC @ ~ 1400 fps in 308 with the dacron.

[Maninga]

Little confused here, but how are you "crimping" on your gas checks?

Are you using a sizing die to crimp your gas checks, or just pressing on a gas check, seating the booit and crimping the loaded cartridge in a crimp die later?

I'm only applying the gas check by hand at the moment. Still waiting for my RCBS Lube-A-matic. Still on back order. Australian importer is out of stock. I am only testing the epoxy at the moment to see how the epoxy performs when applied to the case and into the breach.



A trick many use to prevent shaving, is to put a mild inside chamfer on the case mouth along with belling or flaring. I use a quick hand swipe with an RCBS Chamfer & Deburring tool for this, but there are other tools and ways to accomplish this same thing.

A light inside case mouth chamfer will help prevent the sharp case edge from shaving lead, or your boolit coating when you are seating a boolit- Bullwolf

Awsome I didn't even think of chamfering the case mouth. this will help to put less stress on the case since I don't have to flare the brass as much.

Thanks for the advise it has been very helpful.

[Maninga]

I can't find any listings for a sizing die that's between .315" to .318". You might have to order a .314" and open it up to what you want or need.

Yea I have ordered a .314 sizing die for the RCBS luba-A-Matic and I have a friend who can lap it out. although the cast bullets are dropping @ .315, it's only when I coat them that they get to .318

[Maninga]

Yes, crimp on the gas check with a sizing die. If you have a lubesizer you and use it to only crimp. If not you can get a Lee sizing die just big enough to crimp it on, or one that will size the boolit to .315. Your barrel will do that anyway.

It is worth shooting them at .318 and also sizing down to .315/316 and shooting them to see if there is an accuracy difference.

Sounds like it is time for the range!

I'm just a little concerned that .318 might be to big for my barrel. If the bullet is more than .002 bigger than groove how much more PSI will I generate? and what effect does it have if any to increase the chance of leading?

I've read that the AR2207 powder that I am using can be used up to 30gr which seems quite a lot? I have been told to start @18gr and work up.

[Bullwolf]

Awsome I didn't even think of chamfering the case mouth. this will help to put less stress on the case since I don't have to flare the brass as much.

Thanks for the advise it has been very helpful.

You are most welcome for the advice.


I'm only applying the gas check by hand at the moment. Still waiting for my RCBS Lube-A-matic. Still on back order.

If you don't seat the gas check first by running it through a sizer... a few odd things can happen. I suspected that might be the case when your gas check was still remaining in the case neck.

Typically you will have a larger than boolit size, and harder to deform copper base. The large gas check will over expand the neck of your brass out while you seat a boolit.

This can massively reduce your case neck tension, (boolits might even spin in the case, or fall out) and can also cause weird bulges in the case necks. Unless you have a very generous chamber in the gun, you often won't be able to close the action on a round like this.

I would be very cautious shooting un-crimped gas checks. Especially so if you have to seat the gas check below the case neck for any reason. You don't want a gas check stuck in a bore, or that falls into the case.

Ive not had any success using un-crimped gas checks, mostly because I couldn't chamber the cartridges, and had to size/crimp on my checks, but perhaps others who have made it work can offer you more advice there.


I'm just a little concerned that .318 might be to big for my barrel. If the bullet is more than .002 bigger than groove how much more PSI will I generate? and what effect does it have if any to increase the chance of leading?


I don't worry much about a few thousands oversize when loading soft easily deformable cast boolits. The pressure increase concern is more of an issue with jacketed bullets, than with cast boolits, but it's good to be aware of it.

Folks have fired .311-.312 jacketed boolits in 308 caliber rifles (like the first early choke bored .308 Ruger Mini-30's) without dangerously increased pressures. I wouldn't worry about it much at all with a cast boolit.


No problems.
You may see @500 psi increase at the .002 larger boolit but you don't see
a major pressure increase untill .004

While I suspect that runfiverun was talking about handgun cartridges in the above quote, it's probably still a good rule of thumb. As long as you can close the action on such an oversize boolit, I would still try it to see. Just be sure to reduce your loads, and work them up - and not start out with a maximum load.

Generally you want a boolit that is a around .002-.003 bigger than the barrel slug to work nicely, but in some cases a larger boolit (if it will still chamber) will fill up a big throat better and you may find better results. Slugging your barrel will let you know just how oversize you really are, and doing a pound cast of your throat will give you a good idea of where you will likely have the best results.

It seems common for me to find success at .311-.312 with a cast boolits in 30 caliber rifles. I haven't have any problem using boolits as large as .314 in my 30 caliber rifles, but I have not loaded for the 303 british before. I have not gone as large as .318 either. I will let others with more experience with the 303 British cartridge offer more constructive comments.

If accuracy, leading, or key holing issues show up, try sizing the boolit a few (.002 - .003) thousands larger what your barrel slugs at, and see if you have better results.



I've read that the AR2207 powder that I am using can be used up to 30gr which seems quite a lot? I have been told to start @18gr and work up.

From what I understand your AR2207 is equivalent to our Hodgdon/IMR 4198.

Data from the recent Lyman Cast bullet handbook 4th edition for 303 British shows:

Rifles in this caliber (303 British) can vary in groove diameter. While most rifles usually have groove diameters of .312 to .313, some have been found as tight as .308 and some as loose as .317. As such we would recommend slugging the barrel of your rifle before selecting a mould or a sizing die.

Loads use a Federal Large Rifle Primer.
Test rifle is a Enfield #1 MkIII with a 25 1/2 inch barrel.

Saeco #305 180 grain boolit Lyman #2 Alloy, sized to .313, OAL 2.735
Start = 21.0 grains of IMR 4198 @ 1611 FPS
MAX. = 29.2 grains of IMR 4198 @ 2121 FPS

Lee #312-185-1R 185 grain boolit 10 to 1 Alloy, sized to .313, OAL 2.825
Start = 21.0 grains of IMR 4198 @ 1599 FPS
MAX. = 29.9 grains of IMR 4198 @ 2086 FPS

I would bet you will find better results at the lower end of the load range, than the higher end.

Hope that helps some.


- Bullwolf

[robg]

in my 308 loads with gas checks if i pull a boolit the gas checks stay in the neck

[popper]

Same here, even PC over the GC.

[mdi]

FWIW; my Enfield slugs out at .318", not uncommon, so I opened up a .314 Lee die to size a lead bullet to .318" (I also experimented with sizing a jacketed bullet down from .323", and it worked OK, but that's another story). I size my PCed bullets to .318" and use a light jacketed bullet load. Works for me...