35 Whelen reloading: then and now

[Maineboy]

I have several issues of the American Rifleman from the mid 50s and enjoy reading them every once in a while. Sometimes I find something that makes me scratch my head. Today I was going over the April 1954 issue and came across a letter in the Dope Bag section where the writer was praising his 35 Whelen and claimed: "My load with the 200 grain Remington Core-Loct bullet and 59 grains of 4895 powder developed 3030 f.p.s. when tested with the chronograph. The 250-gr Barns spitzer bullet with 56 grains of 4895 powder gave a velocity of 2860 f.p.s." I'm assuming that he was talking about IMR 4895. The nearest reloading manual to me is Richard Lee's Modern Reloading second edition and a quick check of 35 Whelen data indicates a maximum charge of IMR 4895 is 58 grains (compressed) behind a 200 grain bullet for 2655 fps and 49400 cup and 55 grains behind a 250 grain bullet for 2475 fps and 51600 cup. Quite a difference between his and more modern data and even considering he used an extra grain of powder with each bullet it makes me wonder if he really did chronograph his loads or if it was just a WAG. BTW, the fastest load in the Lee manual is 2807 with 60 grains of BLC2 for the 200 grain bullet and 2550 with 59.5 grains of REL 15 for the 250 grain bullet.

[GBertolet]

I don't think chronographs were all that common to the average Joe back then. Only the government and ballistic labs normally had them, as they were horribly expensive. I don't doubt the powder charges, but I tend to believe the velocities are a WAG.

[sundog]

Wow, I would say that was quite a luxury having a chrono in 1954! I wonder how well calibrated it may have been. If I got results like that today and compared them to what you report from Lee's manual, I would certainly question the difference.

A friend gave me a large box of old Rifleman mags years ago. Lot's of good reading.

[Blackwater]

Chronos were indeed rare back then, and were only being developed at that time. Consequently, their accuracy was NOT what it is today, and even today there are variations. They're just much more tolerable now. Then too, many reloaders were rather innocent about pressures and the dangers therein, and it wasn't too uncommon for folks to keep adding powder until something gave way, which was usually the softer brass ctg. cases. As long as the brass would last 2- 3 reloads, many were satisfied with that, and kept loading what now would be regarded as very hot loads now. Metalurgy wasn't anywhere near what it is now, either, and individual guns varied a lot more than now, too. If one of these more daring reloaders got a particularly strong one, only brass life suffered unless and until bolt lugs set back, or other problems developed. Knowledge and understanding of how guns work, and why they did things was pretty hit and miss, and a miss COULD, though rarely, cost a few shooters their lives or at least some body parts like hands and eyes. It was a time of innocence and faith, and sometimes the faith was misplaced or misapplied. Overloads CAN, even today, be sustained for sometimes inordinately long periods, but the Piper always has to be paid at some point, and this produced the "inexplicable detonations" that occasionally occurred. Wishful thinking that we can get "something for nothing" or that "some of us" can get results that others can't, by the Grace of God or other sentiments, isn't quelled within us yet. Anomalies DO occur, but there's always a reson, somewhere. The hard part is FINDING that reason. It's been said that pressure = velocity, and that's pretty well true, but it's also true that some reloaders like to traipse on the wild side, and SOME (not all, but some) get away with it for unseemly long periods. This is a testament to our gun designers and manufacturers, probably, more than anything else, including "dumb luck." I once had whole big boxes of those old magazines, and they WERE indeed very interesting and pleasurable to read. Informative? Not so much - not with all we've learned since, and with the newer manufacturing properties and proceedures we use to make the same powders now. Change is said to be the only constant in life, and a darn good case can be made for that. Just enjoy them, but any sane man isn't going to try some of the stuff that was put in print back then any more than he's going to believe the world is flat any more. And though God's Grace is inestimable, I'm not sure it applies very well to getting away with shooting overloads.

My own Whelen is the AI version, and seems to produce good velocities with somewhat lower powder charges than some data might indicate. I quit when I get good velocity and accuracy. Darn fine caliber, and kills deer observably differently than the smaller bullet/faster velocity types. A bit more dramatic, but results are the same. Venision doesn't know or care what kills it or how. And us good ol' Southren Country Boys LIKE to eat! ;^)

[Yodogsandman]

You also have to remember that at that time, the 35 Whelen was a wildcat cartridge. Different rifles had different chambers and powder capacities.

[Maineboy]

After further research, I realize the writer is claiming 358 Norma Magnum velocities in his Whelen.

[35remington]

What he did wasn't advisable if velocities were correct......which they likely were not.

[Yodogsandman]

I'd like to thank all of the early authors for their articles, which ultimately led to Remington legitimizing the cartridge in 1987. Now we have published loads in the manuals, a bunch of great bullets and case heads that are stamped 35 Whelen. An article in 1958 led me to finally build mine!

[Maineboy]

It is a great cartridge and those early experimenters did a lot of seat-of-the pants reloading. Nowadays, good reloading components and data for just about any cartridge are plentiful and greatly appreciated. I haven't shot much with my Whelen except paper and a few water filled milk jugs. I was going to use it on my moose hunt but opted for my Marlin 45-70 instead. Once in a while I do carry it while deer hunting but haven't seen a buck on those occasions.

[30CalTy]

Heck chronographs were few and far between even into the mid-80's.

[taco650]

It is a great cartridge and those early experimenters did a lot of seat-of-the pants reloading. Nowadays, good reloading components and data for just about any cartridge are plentiful and greatly appreciated. I haven't shot much with my Whelen except paper and a few water filled milk jugs. I was going to use it on my moose hunt but opted for my Marlin 45-70 instead. Once in a while I do carry it while deer hunting but haven't seen a buck on those occasions.

Can't argue the success you had with your 45-70 on that moose hunt either. Your 35W would've worked fine but for something that big, firing 400+ grains of lead at it seems like it would give you a greater margin for success than 250 grains.

[TXGunNut]

Can't argue the success you had with your 45-70 on that moose hunt either. Your 35W would've worked fine but for something that big, firing 400+ grains of lead at it seems like it would give you a greater margin for success than 250 grains.

Maybe so, there's something very reassuring about a big chunk of lead in a Marlin levergun. Quite honesty the 35 Whelen is overkill for anything I may shoot in TX and probably plenty for moose but I sure appreciate the horsepower and confidence that a 45-70 brings to the party.

[35 shooter]

The 45/70 "knows no fear"! Neither does a 35 whelen!!!;)

[sthwestvictoria]

Some of these loads from GUNS magazine seemed fairly warm:
130621
My jacketed load is sedate, 2450fps with the 225 Woodleigh over 55.5grains of AR2208 (Varget)

[kysunfish]

Although it does not have much of a shoulder to work with the .400 Whelen has always been one to look at. I have been around a couple of them and have witnessed their capability.

[taco650]

After loading the 30-06 for years, I see the suggested powders for the 35W and wonder why it likes faster ones than the '06.

[Screwbolts]

After loading the 30-06 for years, I see the suggested powders for the 35W and wonder why it likes faster ones than the '06.

It's a BORE thingy, our 06s are .308 cal as we know, when you take the same case and increase the bore to .358 you drastically increase the surface area of the base of the bullet. Or look at it as an increase in the cross section of the bore. To now properly burn powder you have to go with a faster burn rate class of powders to be consumed in the larger bore. You do not have a bigger case, just a larger bore. In reality based on the bore size of barrels of equal length, but of different bore size, they react the same as barrels of different lenghts. This is based on the relation/ratio of bore size to length, it does matter.

Ken

[W.R.Buchanan]

It's a BORE thingy, our 06s are .308 cal as we know, when you take the same case and increase the bore to .358 you drastically increase the surface area of the base of the bullet. Or look at it as an increase in the cross section of the bore. To now properly burn powder you have to go with a faster burn rate class of powders to be consumed in the larger bore. You do not have a bigger case, just a larger bore. In reality based on the bore size of barrels of equal length, but of different bore size, they react the same as barrels of different lenghts. This is based on the relation/ratio of bore size to length, it does matter.

Ken

The term for this relationship is called "Pressure Burn Ratio" It was explained to me by Dave Scovill of Handloader Magazine in reference to my question to him on why certain powders are used in certain cartridges, and why some work better than others.

In short the capacity of the cartridge in relation to the bore diameter defines this ratio. That is used to determine what burn speed the most efficient powder should have in order to produce desired velocities.

Larry Gibson could probably elaborate further on this topic as most of the conversation I had several years ago has long since evaporated due to dis use.

Randy

[Yodogsandman]

Maineboy, I used my 35 Whelen for both of my two moose hunts. I don't have a 45-70 and can't attest to it's lethality like you can. I can say that the 35 Whelen is fully and utterly capable. When you get another tag, you should give it a go!

[Maineboy]

Maineboy, I used my 35 Whelen for both of my two moose hunts. I don't have a 45-70 and can't attest to it's lethality like you can. I can say that the 35 Whelen is fully and utterly capable. When you get another tag, you should give it a go!
IF I ever get another moose permit, I plan on using the Whelen. The 45-70 had it's turn.

[taco650]

IF I ever get another moose permit, I plan on using the Whelen. The 45-70 had it's turn.

Are they hard to get in ME?

[Maineboy]

Are they hard to get in ME?

There is a lottery and you have to apply for a permit every year. The total number of permits are determined beforehand and then allocated by hunting zone. It took me 30 years to get a permit and I can't apply again until 2017.

[Maineboy]

http://www5.informe.org/online/moose/

[Yodogsandman]

Maineboy, 3 years is a long, long time to have to wait! What I did during the 3 year waiting period and after was to just put everyone in the family in for a permit. You could still participate as a sub-permitee, right? Well, both my younger son and younger daughter have both been picked, now! The older son and older daughter were their sub-permitee's for their hunts! I got to tag along, too! I scouted out new spots, while they hunted.

[Elkins45]

Heck chronographs were few and far between even into the mid-80's.

Back in the 50's they were likely using a ballistic pendulum instead of an electronic chronograph for most uses anyway.

[Maineboy]

Maineboy, 3 years is a long, long time to have to wait! What I did during the 3 year waiting period and after was to just put everyone in the family in for a permit. You could still participate as a sub-permitee, right? Well, both my younger son and younger daughter have both been picked, now! The older son and older daughter were their sub-permitee's for their hunts! I got to tag along, too! I scouted out new spots, while they hunted.

I could do that, but I'm not that excited about moose hunting.

[Mk42gunner]

I will say that the .35 Whelen is the one cartridge I have ever seen a deer drop in the scope from a body shot. Admittedly it wasn't a big deer, a yearling whitetail doe, but I hit her between the neck and shoulder on the left side and the bullet exited behind the ribs on the right. No major bones or CNS were touched. As the gun was recoiling, I saw her go down, she just kind of followed the vertical crosshair as the rifle was going up.

I had shot a buck 15 minutes after season opened that year, and I got her about 20 minutes before season ended. The load? Remington's 200 grain PSP, (back in my pre rifle casting days). The shot was from offhand so I could see over the soybeans, range about 65 yards.

I was impressed.

Robert

[taco650]

There is a lottery and you have to apply for a permit every year. The total number of permits are determined beforehand and then allocated by hunting zone. It took me 30 years to get a permit and I can't apply again until 2017.

That's how it was to get antelope tags in OR when I lived there. The irritating to me was you'd be driving around in the desert and see them in big herds yet it took years of failed drawings to get a tag.

[Maineboy]

That's how it was to get antelope tags in OR when I lived there. The irritating to me was you'd be driving around in the desert and see them in big herds yet it took years of failed drawings to get a tag.

I live in moose country. It's not unusual to see 5-10 of these behemoths a day up in my neck of the woods. I wish there were as many whitetails but we're on the fringe of their range.

[TXGunNut]

After loading the 30-06 for years, I see the suggested powders for the 35W and wonder why it likes faster ones than the '06.

I've had limited success with slower powders in the 35W, seems the "sweet spot" is rather narrow and hard to find. If the powder is at all temperature sensitive that could be problematic in a hunting situation.

[taco650]

I've had limited success with slower powders in the 35W, seems the "sweet spot" is rather narrow and hard to find. If the powder is at all temperature sensitive that could be problematic in a hunting situation.

Good to know. Here in GA its fairly mild by my standards (lived in Eastern OR for 13 years prior to moving down). When/if I get my 30-06 rebored, I'll go with what the books recommend for powder just to save guessing time. Same with molds.

[35Whelen]

My best bang flop was with a jacketed bullet....measured at 300 meters. 250 grain Hornady at 2453fps with a load of IMR 4064 . I guessed at 400 yds, held top of the back and that moose dropped like it had been pole axed. He dropped so hard he bounced when he hit the ground, and as mentioned earlier, I watched it through the 1.5 x 5 leupold scope. I have only ever recovered one slug. Dropped a really big bull one year up where I am working now at Mile 202 of the Alaska hwy in British Columbia hit him in the right ham as he spun to run off. That big ole 250 grain slug tipped him over like he fell asleep on the hoof. The bullet transected the bull from stem to stern and left a fist sized hole in his sternum when it exited. Not a bone hit, but that was some impressive penetration. I now have four 35 cal molds for casting. I can hardly wait to try the 358009 that Tom at Accurate made and I really want to order the NEI 358-282 for it now. Gotta love the ole Whelen. Bought a Ruger Hawkeye in the little brother cal . 358 Wincheste I am just itching to try out.

[HangFireW8]

1954? It was probably surplus 4895, which was all over the map from near 4064 to near 3031 burn rates. There was even a batch that caused a lot of overpressures, the batch number was publicized, but it was kind of hard to take that warning from a magazine and apply it to the paper sack you got filled from a drum at the local gun shop.