Tapper or Roll Crimp in the .44 mag and .357?

[Leatherhead Bullets]

I have been reloading since I was a kid, nearly 30 yrs. Have always roll crimped my revolver rounds in fear of set back and to obtain consistent burn. But having recently switched to coated bullets, I am curious if anyone has positive or equal results using a taper crimp instead. If the coating gets shaved or cut, there is a chance of exposing the lead to the gases etc to cause leading. What are your thoughts and experiences? BTW, I currently load for SBH .44, .357, and .357 Rossi carbine. Thanks

[DougGuy]

As long as there is no boolit pull with adjacent rounds a taper crimp will work but you need neck tension for slow burning powders which a roll crimp delivers more resistance to boolit movement than a taper crimp. Neck tension and roll crimp work well together for heavy boolits and slow magnum powders. I would think taper crimp would be better suited to less than full house magnum loads.

[glockky]

I agre with DougGuy when working with slow burning powders in 44 and 357 a good roll crimp is critical. If you dont believe me take some rounds loaded with any of the following 296, H110, 2400, AA#9, or 300MP and vary the crimp then shoot across the chronograph. Velocity will be all over the place.

I think you can crimp without chipping the coating, although I have not messed with coated boolits. And if you do have any chip off it's in the crimp groove and should not be a problem.

Now this is just my opinion and some here will disagree but I really like the redding profile crimp die. I have them for every caliber I put a crimp on. If you lube the die a little like the directions say they work great and provide you with a very uniform crimp.

[Scharfschuetze]

I roll crimp my heavier recoiling revolver rounds when I load them up to their potential.

[mdi]

I have been reloading since I was a kid, nearly 30 yrs. Have always roll crimped my revolver rounds in fear of set back and to obtain consistent burn. But having recently switched to coated bullets, I am curious if anyone has positive or equal results using a taper crimp instead. If the coating gets shaved or cut, there is a chance of exposing the lead to the gases etc to cause leading. What are your thoughts and experiences? BTW, I currently load for SBH .44, .357, and .357 Rossi carbine. Thanks

None of the coated bullets I have found have crimp grooves or cannalures so I taper crimp them all (not talkin' about PCed bulets). I have not gone to heavy magnum loads, but mid to upper range. A good firm taper crimp (careful not to buckle the case) and sufficient neck tension has worked for me and my .44s and 357s...

[texassako]

I am currently experimenting with a 3rd option, the Lee rifle style FCD in .357 Magnum(not the carbide pistol FCD style). They show up on Lee's closeout page fairly often in .357 and .44, but are a custom order if you don't want to wait. It should not cut the coating since it doesn't curl the edge in like a roll crimp, but can put a heavy crimp on if you need it. The only difference so far between it and my usual roll crimp is I can use less crimp. Currently testing it side by side with a heavy roll crimp in full magnum loads to see if case life is any different.

[475AR]

I like the Redding profile crimp die as it applies both a taper and a roll crimp. I did test some hy tek bullets in my 44 and adjusted the die to where the roll crimp just folds over I also made sure cases were same length. Worked well and will be doing more after I cast/coat some more.

[Leatherhead Bullets]

Thanks guys for the input. I am currently using an older 240 grn SWC and 158 SWC that still has the crimp groove. I will give it a run with both and look into the Redding.

[GBertolet]

Roll crimp for revolvers with a crimp groove on bullet. The roll crimp works best for preventing bullets from being pulled out during the inertia of recoil, in heavy recoiling revolvers. The taper crimp is prefered for auto's, as it prevents the bullets from being pushed in during the feeding cycle. Plus it leaves more of a step to headspace off of in the rimless cases.

[Shiloh]

I taper for .357, but don't use max loads. 2400 is about my slowest powder. I just don't need the full power recoil anymore, and my accuracy is usually with mid range loads. For .H110 and 296 with full power loads?? Roll crimp.

Shiloh

[Blackwater]

The only place I've ever found any real use for a taper crimp is in loading light loads with HBWC's. Sometimes crimp can affect consistency of ignition, I think, and varying crimp until you find the "sweet spot" CAN, at least sometimes, affect accuracy. What powder you're using can also make a difference in how muhc crimp the loads want to do their best grouping. Like everything, ya' just gota' TRY it, and SEE.

[jonp]

Taper with target to mod loads of faster powder. Roll with upper end and slower powder. I agree with the others here.

I've experimented with both my 357mag and 45Colt with target and near max. Target made no difference. Near max did

[jonp]

I like the Redding profile crimp die as it applies both a taper and a roll crimp. I did test some hy tek bullets in my 44 and adjusted the die to where the roll crimp just folds over I also made sure cases were same length. Worked well and will be doing more after I cast/coat some more.
Hw do you get both from that die? The redding die description says its a roll

[Digital Dan]

.44 in a rifle, max loads of Li'l Gun under a 300 gr paper patched pure lead bullet. Taper crimp has worked for 15 years so far.

[jmort]

The Profile crimp die is a roll crimp for revolver cartridges. They make a taper crimp die for revolvers and pistols.

[RedHawk357Mag]

I have the Redding profile crimp die. Don't use any lube though... Going to do some research now. Also have the Lee rifle factory crimp die to both work well. But so does the Rcbs, Durachromes, and regular Redding three die sets. Sometimes I think I collect dies to collect dies. Lol

[birddog]

Have shot many heavy loads in my 41, 44 mags and the 480 ruger and will tell you that it takes a good roll crimp to keep bullets from jumping under recoil.
Charlie

[jmort]

"...the Lee rifle style FCD in .357 Magnum"

I have two, they are collet style.

[wquiles]

It is worth nothing that for the crimp to work well, the case length needs to be uniform, even more so in the roll crimp case (no pun intended).

[TXGunNut]

The only place I've ever found any real use for a taper crimp is in loading light loads with HBWC's. Sometimes crimp can affect consistency of ignition, I think, and varying crimp until you find the "sweet spot" CAN, at least sometimes, affect accuracy. What powder you're using can also make a difference in how muhc crimp the loads want to do their best grouping. Like everything, ya' just gota' TRY it, and SEE.

As a rule I use a roll crimp for revolver loads because most are fairly stiff and a few approach max. The exception was when I was loading light target loads for PPC shooting. I felt that due to slight variations in case lengths I was getting a more uniform release with a taper crimp die. Most folks used a light roll crimp but for me, in my guns, the taper crimp had a slight edge.

[gray wolf]

I am currently experimenting with a 3rd option, the Lee rifle style FCD in .357 Magnum(not the carbide pistol FCD style). They show up on Lee's closeout page fairly often in .357 and .44, but are a custom order if you don't want to wait. It should not cut the coating since it doesn't curl the edge in like a roll crimp, but can put a heavy crimp on if you need it. The only difference so far between it and my usual roll crimp is I can use less crimp. Currently testing it side by side with a heavy roll crimp in full magnum loads to see if case life is any different.

This die is worth looking into, I have one for my 357 and it does a nice job for me.
I have a bullet that loads to long and has a wide front band. So I crimp it on the the front band, nice tight crimp if I need it and very, very little distortion of the bullet.

I use it for most of the 357 bullets, works fine when the bullet is crimped in the crimp ring also.

[mdi]

Having roll crimped my first round in 1969, I think I have a bit of experience.:-P I have taper crimped revolver rounds, and I have roll crimped semi-auto rounds, successfully, but the bullets and dies aren't designed that way. I now use a Redding Profile crimp die on my revolvers, RCBS taper crimp on my semi-autos, and Lee collet crimp dies when I crimp bottle necked rounds.

I would hazard to say that 90% of a successful crimp is produced by the operator. With care a conscientious reloader can use a roll crimp, successfully on coated or plated bullets, but a sloppy, semi-caring operator couldn't make the best crimp die work on anything. Most know the reasons each type die is needed (roll for revolvers w/crimp grooves and cannalures, taper for semi-auto, and plated w/o grooves/cannalures, basically. And care not to cut into plating or coating.), but how much is often misunderstood. For my heavy recoiling Magnum revolvers, I started with a light-medium crimp, then used the load, fire, measure test (load a cylinder full, fire all but one, measure the last cartridge to see if it moved). And I adjust as necessary...

[fecmech]

I started taper crimping my .357 mag loads years ago and still do. The original reason was using the Lyman 358429 in my Ruger GP with the shorter cylinder. I cannot speak to the .44 mag as I don't have or need the taper there. But in the .357 with max loads of 2400(13.5 grs) and 296 (15.3 grs) along with the 358429 I have no bullet pull problems at all. I have run taper crimp bullets around the cylinder firing these loads with no bullet movement. My 50 yd group sizes with both loads are in the 2" range off the bench and I'm not talking a wallet group but an average of at least 4-6, 6 shot groups. Ballistics are uniform with ES's in the 50 fps range and SD's in the teens. Sometime back using my .357 rifle I shot two 10 shot strings over the chrono with 12.5 grs of 2400,and the 358429. The only difference was one string was roll crimped and the other taper crimped, the results. Taper crimp=1662 fps avg,ES= 51 fps,SD=14 fps. Roll crimp=1657 fps, ES=54 fps, SD=15 fps. IMO crimp means nothing ballistically, it is a means to prevent bullet movement in recoil. Bullet PULL is where uniform ballistics is achieved. I lightly taper crimp everything in .38/.357. YMMV

[Shiloh]

It is worth nothing that for the crimp to work well, the case length needs to be uniform, even more so in the roll crimp case (no pun intended).

It sure helps with consistency. One of the reasons I went to taper crimp. A lot more forgiving. The short time that I trimmed .357 cases, I found it to be a PITA. Taper crrimp works for me with my mid power loads.

Shiloh

[retread]

"...the Lee rifle style FCD in .357 Magnum"

I have two, they are collet style.

I understand how the collet is actuated on a bottle neck (on the shoulder) but how does is work on a straight wall case?

[Motor]

To form an effective crimp you must move the brass into a groove on the bullet or into the bullet itself. A taper crimp as used on auto loading cases like 45acp really is not a crimp in the same sence as a roll crimp on a revolver round. The only true purpose of the so called taper crimp is to remove the mouth flair. Neck tention holds the bullet.

With a auto loader the common force trying to move the bullet is from the auto loading. The bullet is more likely to be pushed back as it slams into the feed ramp.

With revolvers the common force is recoil. It tries to jerk the remaining bullets in the cylinder out of the case mouths. This recoil inertia is much greater than the auto loaders loading force. This is why a true effective crimp is recommended for revolvers. Yes it also helps with ignition when using some powders.

Motor

[cajun shooter]

MDI, I have you by a few months as I started in 1968 upon returning home from my tour of duty. Ha!! Ha!! I have been using the Redding Pro Crimp dies for quite a few years and posted a thread about it on this forum about 5 years ago. I now have reached a time in my life where I no longer see how much 2400 I can put in the various cases of 357,44mag, 45Colt and so on. I'm now a cowboy shooter in SASS while only using 100% of real BP in two revolvers and a rifle chambered in 44WCF. I also use the BP in a SXS shotgun with the side hammers. I load full cases of BP and do need a good crimp on those bullets and the Redding dies provide that better than the others that I tried. Later David

[44man]

Case tension is what works, Both Cbrick and I have tested from zero crimp to full profile shooting single shot in revolvers without a whit of difference. Crimp aids tension for recoil. use a roll crimp to fold brass only to the bottom of the groove and Lee boolits take less.
Watch those separate dies, many are too small for larger cast. The profile will roll crimp but can also fold a full profile like the .454 factory loads have.
The Lee FCD can be an abortion. Stab marks size a boolit on exit and can reduce case life. Some size your boolit.
I seat and crimp all at once with the seat die. Never seen where another step in needed.
If you can't slip a cast boolit through the separate crimp die, don't use it.
Taper crimp is for the auto for head space but most brass does not touch so the boolit itself does the stop.

[Char-Gar]

Hw do you get both from that die? The redding die description says its a roll

The Redding Profile Crimp dies is an odd duck being neither a true roll crimp nor a true taper crimp. This dies produced a roll crimp and below it is a taper crimp portion. The only real benefit I have found with this die, and I have them in 4 calibers is it allows the roll portion to not be as severe and still have the bullet firmly held in the case for good powder combustion and to keep the bullets in a revolver cylinder from going forward under recoil and tying up the gun.


Depending on the recoil of the gun, a severe roll crimp can increase/bulge the size of the case mouth causing chambering problems.

[44man]

The Redding Profile Crimp dies is an odd duck being neither a true roll crimp nor a true taper crimp. This dies produced a roll crimp and below it is a taper crimp portion. The only real benefit I have found with this die, and I have them in 4 calibers is it allows the roll portion to not be as severe and still have the bullet firmly held in the case for good powder combustion and to keep the bullets in a revolver cylinder from going forward under recoil and tying up the gun.


Depending on the recoil of the gun, a severe roll crimp can increase/bulge the size of the case mouth causing chambering problems.
True about the bulge but crimp does not improve powder burn in the least.

[fredj338]

Taper crimp can NOT hold a bullet in place. Too much taer crimp can actually reduce neck tension. It works if you have little to no recoil, but roll crimp rules for heavy loads in revolver.

[bhn22]

I am experimenting with Profile crimp dies now too. I was originally using a roll crimp die that came with my elderly Pacific Durachrome set. However, I noticed that this die roll crimped at a near 90 degree angle, and that doesn't even remotely match any of the crimp grooves in my bullets. It would be okay for jacketed bullets, but provides little or no direct contact with the bullet in the groove (see avatar). The Redding die crimps to an angle that seems to closely match my bullets crimp grooves. I feel this is desireable to keep the softer lubricated cast bullets from moving in the case mouth under recoil. The taper crimp portion of the crimp appears to only be beneficial by eliminating any potential case bulge below the roll crimp, plus id does apply a small amount of additional crimp in the area below the roll crimp as well. If it ever warms up, I'll chrono identical loads with the two different style crimps because I gotta know. I'll try to add a pic of the same cases in my avatar, which have now all been recrimped with the profile die. If I don't freeze to death before I get a chance to do it.

Jim, I'm gonna have to disagree with your last statement. Particularly when lubricated lead bullets are involved. And no, I don't use super slippery bullet lube.

[Char-Gar]

True about the bulge but crimp does not improve powder burn in the least.

I demur.

[dkf]

The Lee FCD can be an abortion. Stab marks size a boolit on exit and can reduce case life. Some size your boolit.
I seat and crimp all at once with the seat die. Never seen where another step in needed.
If you can't slip a cast boolit through the separate crimp die, don't use it.
Taper crimp is for the auto for head space but most brass does not touch so the boolit itself does the stop.

I got the FCD with the 4 die set for .44mag. Out of the box it would not work for my needs.(loading .432" bullets) Willing to try and make it work since I have it. I removed the carbide ring, chamfered the corners where the ring sat and then cased hardened the moving crimp collar. The case hardening of the collar caused it to expand .002"-.003" on the ID so now I am able to crimp with a .432" bullet in place. So far it has been working ok.

[bhn22]

There's also a collet type crimp die from LEE. It works like the rifle dies. They don't appear to be a regular production item though.

A pox on the guy who decided to add the carbide ring to the handgun crimp die.

[44man]

I use a roll crimp to the bottom of the groove only in my .475 and .500 JRH without recoil movement. I have separate crimp dies for both but my boolits do not fit through either.
My first boolit for the .475 was the Lee 400 with the chicken scratch crimp groove and they hold fine too.
There is no way to make a tighter roll crimp because you will bulge brass below the groove and break some tension along with harder to chamber the rounds. To dig a crimp into a boolit without a groove is not good either.
Once a friend brought factory cast loads to shoot, had severe profile crimps. I asked why so much crimp. Looked like Factory .454 jacketed loads. Two shots from every revolver tied up the guns from pull. Real good in bear country! [smilie=s: Kiss your butt GONE! Not a single one of my loads pulled with a gentle roll crimp.
I use nothing but 296 and shots with no crimp, single shot were virtually the same as a full profile.
Never let anyone tell you to crimp harder for powder burn. You can make it worse.

[cbrick]

Ok, here is something for the grey matter to chew on. There is one common factor throughout these tests. Seeing what that is should answer questions on crimp.



CrimpTests

FA 357 Mag 9”
RCBS 180 GC Silhouette @ 192 gr. (WW HT @ 18 BHN)
16.0 gr.H-110
Winchester brass
CCI 550 primer
Temp 700 Humidity 38%


All chrono tests 10 shots



1>

My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized




E.S. 30




A.V. 1518




S.D. 9







2>

Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized




E.S. 30




A.V. 1520




S.D. 9







3>

No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell




E.S. 30




A.V. 1528




S.D. 9







4>

Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only




E.S. 26




A.V. 1532




S.D. 8







5>

My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only




E.S. 26




A.V. 1536




S.D. 8

[44man]

Thanks Rick, so hard to explain sometimes.

[44man]

I shot BPCR and use over size, soft boolits. Did not want to FL so I bought a Lyman neck size die. Expander does nothing and a .460" boolit falls in the case. Scrap metal in my opinion. What does an "M" die do? It removes half the tension! What does a FCD do? It stabs brass, deforms a boolit and scrapes a boolit because it will not iron out. Shortens brass life too. Why not seat boolits and use a center punch for crimp?

[1Shirt]

On straight sided cases, I use a roll crimp period. If loads are lite, than the roll is lite. However for heavy loads in 357 or 44, I want a good hard roll crimp.
1Shirt!

[bhn22]

Thanks Rick, so hard to explain sometimes.

Huh? are we looking at the same thing? Carbide dies usually size cases too far down, increasing neck tension, but potentially shortening case life. Rick got highest velocities from un-resized factory brass. Rick also got the highest velocities from crimped cases. ES & SD are identical, or nearly so. The variance between highest to lowest velocities are about 1%. I'm really impressed by this loads consistency throughout the test. I'm not attacking you Rick, please do not take it this way. Whos reloading dies were you using? As strange as it sounds, all manufacturers crimp dies are not the same, as I mentioned earlier. As strange as it sounds, I've been toying with the idea of using a LEE Factory crimp die with the guts removed to size cases. It would add an extra step, but the cases might live a little longer. "Cowboy" dies, are a possibility as well. I need to do some measuring to see if this would return cases to unfired factory dimensions. And I'm not belittling 1% results, stack a few of them up and you could see a measurable advantage.

[44man]

Huh? are we looking at the same thing? Carbide dies usually size cases too far down, increasing neck tension, but potentially shortening case life. Rick got highest velocities from un-resized factory brass. Rick also got the highest velocities from crimped cases. ES & SD are identical, or nearly so. The variance between highest to lowest velocities are about 1%. I'm really impressed by this loads consistency throughout the test. I'm not attacking you Rick, please do not take it this way. Whos reloading dies were you using? As strange as it sounds, all manufacturers crimp dies are not the same, as I mentioned earlier. As strange as it sounds, I've been toying with the idea of using a LEE Factory crimp die with the guts removed to size cases. It would add an extra step, but the cases might live a little longer. "Cowboy" dies, are a possibility as well. I need to do some measuring to see if this would return cases to unfired factory dimensions. And I'm not belittling 1% results, stack a few of them up and you could see a measurable advantage.
Cases live longer? My best groups were shot with .44 brass shot over 40X.
I seen no shots by rick that were not sized. Seen a carbide sizer always used. Only crimp change.
Some carbide sizers will size near the base more but I use the Hornady titanium nitride dies, same darn thing and have seen no loss. I do raise the die a little so I neck size more then FL. But soon you need to FL to chamber.
Redding has a two stage carbide die for the .45 Colt to ease the sizing near the base.
Carbide dies do NOT increase tension, your expander controls that. You can size just below the seated boolit base but expansion will make you FL now and then or you can't chamber.

[cbrick]

Jim, you might want to pay a bit closer attention to tests 4 & 5 in the chart.

Rick

[44man]

Jim, you might want to pay a bit closer attention to tests 4 & 5 in the chart.

Rick
OK, but new brass does not need sized as it is OK for tension in most cases. I have wondered why I fool with new brass to size and expand.
Factories do not size new brass when they load.
You need to talk fired brass instead of new. Bhn22 would be wrong that new brass has no tension.

[cbrick]

Ah but Jim, this is one area we take a different fork in the road. My revolver match brass for the big matches was virgin, unsized, not expanded brass just as in those two tests. (crimped of course) It is the most consistent & uniform it well ever be. Trimmed, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole uniformed, slight bell, profile crimp.

Once fired brass was neck sized, primer pocket uniformed, slightly expanded/belled, profile crimp.

Primers seated in the uniformed pockets with a method I devised to put the same seating pressure on all primers in the uniformed pockets with a slight primer crush which seats the anvil against the bottom of the pocket, it also uniforms the distance from the anvil to the inside of the cup.

Rick

[44man]

Ah but Jim, this is one area we take a different fork in the road. My revolver match brass for the big matches was virgin, unsized, not expanded brass just as in those two tests. (crimped of course) It is the most consistent & uniform it well ever be. Trimmed, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole uniformed, slight bell, profile crimp.

Once fired brass was neck sized, primer pocket uniformed, slightly expanded/belled, profile crimp.

Primers seated in the uniformed pockets with a method I devised to put the same seating pressure on all primers in the uniformed pockets with a slight primer crush which seats the anvil against the bottom of the pocket, it also uniforms the distance from the anvil to the inside of the cup.

Rick
You still see that new brass did not need sized. It is already like once fired sized. You do not have to do anything to new brass except a flare for cast or the BR stuff.
Yet you are wrong about virgin brass being even.13119050 new cases shot at 50 yards. I HATE new brass.
We have been over this many times about new brass with uneven tension. I would never shoot IHMSA with new brass.

[cbrick]

I know, you've said that many times. Still, not my experience. I wouldn't shoot a major match with fired brass so I guess folks reading this will have to make up their own mind. I highly recommend they test as opposed to a popularity contest.

There are other areas where we take a completely different approach too. Bottom line is that you have been successful with your methods, I've been successful with mine. Must be true, more than one way to skin a cat.

Rick

[DougGuy]

There are more than one way.

I used new Starline brass in .45 Colt and I sized all of it so I have the same neck tension as if I fired them and then reloaded them. Consistency, is KEY, no matter how small the details are. When we have this quality, we have control. When we take things out of a box and assume something about them is so, we have neither proven our assumption to be true, or inconsequential, or definitely wrong. We learn in hindsight what is what.

Jim says my modded collet crimp is too much. I love it. Why? Because for one, it works but the biggest thing about it, is it's consistency. It seems to lower my ES by enough to make a noticeable difference so in my book, it gets thumbs up.

Again, there is more than one way to arrive at an appreciable level of performance.

[44man]

Seating primers for accuracy, all know to seat enough to make the anvil flush and sensitize the compound. Just FEEL with out a ton of pressure from a press.
It is true the anvil must be pushed to the cup depth yet a lee or RCBS hand tool will let you feel it.
Can you tell your primer seating method? Stop when the cup reaches the bottom of the pocket and pushes the anvil flush. Thin ice here!

[jonp]

I demur.

I'm a little iffy on this myself.

[cbrick]

I've not seated a single primer in a loading press in 30+ years. Yes, even pressure and all seated the same. All wasted if the primer pockets are not uniformed and with a flat bottom. Far worse if the pockets haven't even been cleaned.

Your wrong about "all know". Ask around, you'll be surprised how many have no clue and just stuff the primer in any ole way.

Rick

[44man]

I know, you've said that many times. Still, not my experience. I wouldn't shoot a major match with fired brass so I guess folks reading this will have to make up their own mind. I highly recommend they test as opposed to a popularity contest.

There are other areas where we take a completely different approach too. Bottom line is that you have been successful with your methods, I've been successful with mine. Must be true, more than one way to skin a cat.

Rick
We get along because of that. You will always be a friend. I wish all would respect what you say. I do but some things will have us butt heads. No harm, no hate. I wish the hell you lived next door.
You said to test and now you need a hug.

[cbrick]

Really, next door? There just so happens to be a place for sale two doors down from me. :mrgreen:

I would never say your wrong, you've obviously been very successful with the things you've worked out. The brass is just one of the ways we differ but since this is a thread about crimp let's not talk about grip. [smilie=1:Like I said, more than one way to skin the poor cat.

Rick

[bhn22]

I remember reading Ricks original articles on his load development for the FA .357. I picked up things I had never before considered from those articles. Thank you!

[MT Chambers]

I use heavy hunting loads in my guns and I believe in lots of case neck tension and a solid roll crimp with my seating die in a separate step, no additional crimp dies are required, waste of money. If I lose a few brass along the way, so be it.

[cbrick]

Nearly 20 posts, has anyone figured out what all 5 crimp tests in post 37 have in common?

Rick

[unique]

Nearly 20 posts, has anyone figured out what all 5 crimp tests in post 37 have in common?

Rick

They were all fired from the same handgun?

[cbrick]

They were all fired from the same handgun?

Well yeah, but the question is on crimp so the same gun wouldn't be the point.


Ok, here is something for the grey matter to chew on. There is one common factor throughout these tests. Seeing what that is should answer questions on crimp.

Rick

[btroj]

All Redding crimp dies? None seated and crimped in a single operation. Crimp was just enough to turn case mouth into the crimp groove, not excessively done. Most important of all, neck tension is what gives uniform ignition, the crimp just keeps the bullet in place under recoil.

Close?

Come on, throw the dog a bone.
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/dogs/happy-dog-with-bone-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/)

[cbrick]

Most important of all, neck tension is what gives uniform ignition,

Your close, the answer to the question is uniform neck tension. Look over the tests and the results of each. The neck tension was uniform across all 5 tests. If it wasn't there is no way the velocities, SD and extreme spread could be uniform. This includes the unsized virgin brass and the rounds not crimped at all. Consistent neck tension is the key to uniform combustion with the slow powders.

Sorry Jim but if virgin brass were the horrible stuff you believe it would not match the consistency of the other tests. Factory brass these days is far better than it was in years past, makes me wonder how long you've held that belief.

Rick

[btroj]

​What do I win?

[cbrick]

Better hand loads.

Rick

[btroj]

Woo hoo, I won't the gift of knowledge!!!

[bobthenailer]

For all revolver's i use a taper crimp for all loads under 1,100 fps and use a roll crimp with magnum or slow burning powder 38/357 , 44/44m 45 lc & 454 Casull .

[44man]

Your close, the answer to the question is uniform neck tension. Look over the tests and the results of each. The neck tension was uniform across all 5 tests. If it wasn't there is no way the velocities, SD and extreme spread could be uniform. This includes the unsized virgin brass and the rounds not crimped at all. Consistent neck tension is the key to uniform combustion with the slow powders.

Sorry Jim but if virgin brass were the horrible stuff you believe it would not match the consistency of the other tests. Factory brass these days is far better than it was in years past, makes me wonder how long you've held that belief.

Rick
A long time, ever since I made the tools for my press handles to measure seating pressure.
Can't measure pull of course but seating pressures can be measured and it gives the same results.
getting ready for a match, I could have 10 to 12 piles of loads on the bench. Once I had enough that were even, I used those for the shoot.
From one end to the other, each pile was capable of a group, although there was a 10" difference in POI at 50 meters.
This was around 1980 when I was feeling each bullet going in brass easy or hard. I worked with a BR die maker and he understood so he made me collar dies for the .44 to fit my press instead of one of the other presses. He tried to figure a way to measure brass but it did not work so I figured it out. About that time was when crimp tests started too.
What everyone misses with posts is that the .44 is the biggest culprit, never had much difference with .357 or .357 Max. I refuse to compare one caliber to another and even my larger calibers do not have the problems of the .44. I have measured the .475 and JRH but find no difference worth sorting. The .45 Colt can get fussy.
But you keep bringing up the .357 and you are correct but also wrong because it is different.
Both of us found even tension from case to case is where accuracy starts and crimp does not make powder burn better. How to do away with the old saw "crimp harder" will always be a pain in my side.
I have shown my setup many times and it is so easy.131255131256I seat with the spring steel rod and it bends to pull the graduated rod out of the handle, leaving the faucet washer at a set line. That load goes in the pile with the same set line. By the way, Hornady New Dimension dies make .44 loads as good as my BR dies. I made other things from my RCBS dies. Size dies from about everyone are OK, but expanders ruin loads. 131257 I might have the only BR dies ever made for the .44.

[bhn22]

You need to talk fired brass instead of new. Bhn22 would be wrong that new brass has no tension.

I should have used the term "un-resized" to more accurately depict for you what I was trying to say. I don't recall saying anything along the lines of "no tension". I was stating that in my experience, carbide sizing dies overwork cases by sizing them too small. I think I should just bite the bullet (so to speak), and replace my somewhat antiquated loading dies completely. With jacketed bullets, it's not a serious issue, but it has been demonstrated repeatedly that overly tight cases can impact bullet diameter negatively. And since we're on the subject anyway, so can crimping. There is no single cause or answer to anything we're discussing here.

I did err one one point earlier. The 357 loading article was written by Todd Spotti about Rick, on the LASC pages. I correctly identified the subjects, but missed the mark on the actual author. If anyone hasn't read the articles yet, it's well worth your time. I even found vindication in my brass perparation ritual, although Ricks procedures don't involve smoking cigars backwards, or live chickens. I'll probably try omitting these two stages in my prep from now on, and hope everything works out for me.

[cbrick]

If your going to buy new dies look into RCBS Cowboy dies, less sizing down and an expender meant for CB. That's what I have gravitated to for the 357, 44 Spec & mag, 45 Colt.

Rick

[bhn22]

If your going to buy new dies look into RCBS Cowboy dies, less sizing down and an expender meant for CB. That's what I have gravitated to for the 357, 44 Spec & mag, 45 Colt.

Rick

Thank you Rick. My needs are pretty simple nowdays due to shaky hands, but I still need to do the best job I can. Have you heard anything on Hornadys Cowboy Dies yet? I do like their seating die. They can be bought online at reasonable prices for this day and age.

[cbrick]

Can't speak to the Hornady dies, no experience with them. I can't see why they wouldn't be the same quality as all of Hornady's dies though.

Rick

[bhn22]

Thanks, shooting and reloading are getting to be a rich mans sport.

[44man]

Thanks, shooting and reloading are getting to be a rich mans sport.
Pays for itself, .44's a dime a shot and the .500 might make 12 cents.
Five deer cost me 60 cents. Friends come over, I hand them a gun and open an ammo box, tell them "hey shoot." Only my worthless time involved, got to love it. They hand me a gun and I feel bad shooting their money away.

[bhn22]

Everything has at least doubled in price in the last 5-7 years.

[44man]

Everything has at least doubled in price in the last 5-7 years.
That is true, think my first Hornady dies were around $22 or less. Gas checks are remnants from sun spots! Powders are out of sight as are primers but still we cast and load cheaper and can shoot more. Now you need to buy WW's and have a hard time at that. The EPA caused the lead mine to shut down. It is government and regulations.
The EPA wants to regulate wood burning stoves now but I wonder about forest fires and tanker trains that burn while the pipeline is not approved.
Make me president and watch what happens.

[cbrick]

Ammo has sure gone up. I haven't even looked at factory loaded ammo in the stores for at least 30 years much less priced it. A couple of months ago I picked up an M1A and while in my LGS I looked at some 308 thinking I could test it in the M1A & have the brass. Holy Mother of God are people really paying that? I really had no idea. They still have their ammo, I left quite confident in casting & loading my own.

Rick