Eddie Ray Roth Trial

[jcwit]

something to think about for all you Combat Vets.


Routh, 27, served in Iraq and Haiti and will claim a defense of insanity due to PTSD he was diagnosed with and says was result of his service

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2949361/American-Sniper-s-killer-wanted-one-proud-high-school-ex-Marine-trial-killing-military-hero.html#ixzz3RT1AzEjD
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This may mean those suffering from PTSD are insane??????????http://images.thehighroad.org/smilies/uhoh2.gif

How will this effect all those suffering from PTSD and their right to own firearms?http://images.thehighroad.org/smilies/confused.gif

[Love Life]

PTSD- the fail safe for anyone who has served overseas who doesn't want to be held accountable for their actions when the commit an oopsie.

Been seeing it for a decade and this is no different.

[jcwit]

True, but this trial may well set a president.

[FISH4BUGS]

It has been said that he saw NO combat and was not in areas where combat was occuring. If he claims PTSD, the question will be whether one can claim PTSD without having seen actual combat.
We will see.

[Love Life]

Losers claim PTSD from bootcamp. Weak sauce.

[jcwit]

Not arguing with you there LL

[dilly]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe PTSD is medically limited to just warfare related trauma.

Personally I don't believe there is any condition that can exempt one from responsibility of his or her own actions. Even as young children one's actions effect one's future to one degree or another.

[EMC45]

PTSD- the fail safe for anyone who has served overseas who doesn't want to be held accountable for their actions when the commit an oopsie.

Been seeing it for a decade and this is no different.

I've said this from the start.

[Bad Water Bill]

What I find amazing is that we had MILLIONS OF VETS returning from YEARS of constant combat after WW1,WW2 and Korea yet it is only now surfacing.

[Love Life]

WWI, WWII, and Korean vets weren't doped during the major developmental periods of their lives. Oh, and those vets had both parents, a strong father figure in their lives, Church, and many others.

PTSD is real, but it is faked sooooooooo much and used to get out of trouble. When people start speaking to me of their PTSD issues, I usually shut my ears off and think of good looking women lifting weights with skimpy outfits on.

[jcwit]

Looks like you nailed it Love Life.

That first paragraph says a lot about how kids were brought years ago. We as a country sure lost that old ideology, and that's a shame.

[leeggen]

Soon we will see that PTSD in the kids schools. That is what made that poor kid a bully. Don't get me wrong PTSD is real and I hope all with it can get the help they need. But to claimyou have PTSD as an excuse to get out of trouble then there should be medical proof involved. Now does that make you mentaly ill, well I am sure the high courts will sort it out and we will all lose in the long run.
CD

[bhn22]

I was just about to explode, and probably get kicked off the board. PTSD is real, and often goes undiagnosed, or misdiagnosed. Many WWII & Korean Vets had it before there was a name for it, and Doctors realized they could buy a new Mercedes every year by treating them. Where did the Hells Angels come from originally for example. Many people have a story from their familys past about a relative that came home from war and wasn't quite right. Some of them simply disappeared shortly after returning home. Or alcoholism where there was none before. For the record, I am not a PTSD Vet. I have no personal interest in PTSD outside of the baggage some of my friends came back from Vietnam, and from Iraq with.

[Blacksmith]

PTSD is real for some and not so real for others. But the whole idea of not guilty by reason of insanity has been twisted in the courts. The only thing that should count is did the person know right from wrong and that should be judged by their actions. Did they try to cover things up either before or after did they try hide what they were doing, etc., if so they knew it was wrong and did it anyway therefore they were sane in my book.

[Hickory]

What I find amazing is that we had MILLIONS OF VETS returning from YEARS of constant combat after WW1,WW2 and Korea yet it is only now surfacing.

My thoughts are that, after the above mentioned conflicts, these soldiers felt like winners having made it home alive.
Nowadays, you are conditioned to be a victim or to believe what you did in times of war was wrong.
There is no absolute rightness in war nowadays, no blessing from God, no sense of completion or missiom accomplished. Warriors are used and cast aside as a political pond in a massive twisted game of chess, for those with wealth & power, to get more wealth & power.

[btroj]

I think it was more a case of they were just told to go back to their lives and that was it. How many became alcoholics? How many never lived a useful life?
Look at Zamperini and what happened to him after his return. He was an alcoholic and on a road to run. He was saved by his wife and religion.

The fact it wasn't called something is besides the point. It was there, it just didn't have a name.

That said, it has become a crutch to many. There are those who honestly suffer from it. What bugs me is the ones who never saw any combat, never witnesses the horrors of war, and claim PTSD as a way to get attention, handouts, and excuse them from their duties as men.

[Hamish]

He's a muzzy convert, and the killings were g-hod.

Remember you read it here first,,,

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I was once in the bar at one port we pulled into and the beer was *warm*! I was totally devastated... I think I can claim PTSD also...

:)

Seriously though... There are some people who can definitely claim it, but I'm not so sure that *everyone* who claims it really suffers from it...

[white eagle]

PTSD used an a excuse to shoot your buddies in the back is a crime in itself and should have some accountability
let the victims families decide his fate

[jcwit]

let the victims families decide his fate

That is NOT how our justice system works.

[Love Life]

PTSD has always had a name. Shell shock, combat fatigue, etc.

[captaint]

Unless I'm mistaken, Chris Kyle suffered from PTSD also. It didn't prompt him to murder folks that were trying to help him out.
Sure, everybody is different, but come on......

[bhn22]

I think it was more a case of they were just told to go back to their lives and that was it. How many became alcoholics? How many never lived a useful life?
Look at Zamperini and what happened to him after his return. He was an alcoholic and on a road to run. He was saved by his wife and religion.

The fact it wasn't called something is besides the point. It was there, it just didn't have a name.

That said, it has become a crutch to many. There are those who honestly suffer from it. What bugs me is the ones who never saw any combat, never witnesses the horrors of war, and claim PTSD as a way to get attention, handouts, and excuse them from their duties as men.

Thank you Brad. You explained my position on this much better than I feel I did. The fact remains that if there is any sort of hole in our system, somebody will try to drive a truck through it. Personal responsibility for our own actions is an anachronism.

[white eagle]

That is NOT how our justice system works.

Agreed but I never said anything about the justice system

[w5pv]

This mooslime convert is using PTSD to cover his rear.

[jcwit]

Agreed but I never said anything about the justice system

By that reply it seems as if you would wish to do away with it tho.

[MtGun44]

No doubt many are seriously traumatized by war. How it is dealt with varies from person
to person, with incredible differences in response to this trauma. Some manage to deal with
it well and it is not a serious problem, others put it away and will never think about it again,
others are driven to drink and drugs and worse. I know many WW2, Vietnam and current
combat veterans that have dealt with it very well, and one that has struggled
for decades from Vietnam experiences.

I have zero doubt that many worthless individuals use this excuse to do many bad things,
hoping for sympathy and whatever benefits they can gain, but there are also some folks
that need and deserve our help, understanding and the support of friends, family and
community.

The biggest problem is sorting the wheat from the chaff.

It seems pretty clear that this man is chaff.

Bill

[Echo]

I had a Math teacher in JrHS who had Shell Shock (as they called it then) from WWI. Archie was sorta timid, and tentative, but never went postal, as far as I know...

[1Shirt]

It will be interesting to watch our legal system work in this case. If it were me however, I would just fry the SOB.
1Shirt!

[NavyVet1959]

I haven't kept up on what the military retirement plans are like these days, but it used to be that with 20 years, you could get 50% of your base pay as retirement and 75% with 30 years. The way I remember it, if you left with less than 20 years, you got nothing. I wasn't a lifer, so I didn't pay that much attention to the finer points of it back then though.

If you got a medical discharge, it was possible to be paid even though you did not stay in for 20 years. I've wondered if *some* of the people who get medical discharges for non-physical injuries like PTSD might be just using that as a way of getting something for having spent less than 20 years in the service. That 20 years equals 50% and 19 years equals 0% didn't seem fair to me, but if it was equally prorated, it would be better. Not that it would affect me personally... If you are only in for one enlistment, that would probably work out to be less than 10% of your base pay and back in my day, 10% of nothing is still nothing. We didn't get paid much back then. Best I remember, I don't think I ever had a monthly check that was over maybe $400-450 after they got through subtracting taxes and such. I also don't ever remember filing a tax return back then. Yeah, I was apparently too lazy to even file a 1040-EZ.

[jcwit]

I guessing in todays world there are those who would get PTSD from Basic Training as I knew it back in the 60's.

Or at least claim as such.

[trooperdan]

I guessing in todays world there are those who would get PTSD from Basic Training as I knew it back in the 60's.

Or at least claim as such.

Ain't that the truth!
A-3-1 ABN FT Gordon GA 1963!

[kfarm]

Anyone else think they're feeding this dude to much. Look at the arrest photos and now walking in court, it took me 40 years of my wife cooking to gain that much weight.

[popper]

Was in the Docs office today and read an article about PTSD or shell shock as it was called. The discussed type was due to blast damage and there is now medical evidence of neural damage but blast is primarily to the chest cavity. Similar to Alsheimers. Then there is the trauma of blood, guts & loss, well known. But, nutty people do nutty things. Guess he & Nisan did't have very good psych elval before they signed up. I think the drugs they give you will make you gain weight.

[TXGunNut]

I prefer to call it PTS, I don't feel it's a disorder so the "D" isn't necessary. I'm not saying it's not a real problem, I'm saying that most of us just aren't conditioned to accept what we sometimes see. I think Routh's claim to PTS(D) amounts to opportunistic bullstuff. I feel his actions will make it harder for folks that do indeed suffer from PTS to seek and receive the treatment they need. I feel it will also hinder research in this area.
I'll be the first to say I don't understand PTS, the movie about Kyle has helped a bit in this area. I've never seen combat but I've seen things in law enforcement that I wish I'd never seen. There is an LE version of PTS but I suspect it's a whole 'nuther animal from what today's combat vets wrestle with. The LE community has mechanisms for dealing with their version, I feel the VA should be able to come up with treatments and I'm pretty confident they are doing what they can in this area.
Nope, not going to comment on the trial. Too early. I'm a history fan. I need to let it happen, let it settle, and give it the perspective of at least a few years to get the full picture. I will say we lost two good men that day and leave it at that, for now.

[MaryB]

His insanity claim won't stand up, he was well aware that what he did was wrong when he stole the truck and ran. He was also aware enough to raise his hands and not get shot when the cops caught up with him. He is a faker and the lowest form of life on this planet.

[39duck]

I have a son that has been diagnosed with PTSD along with anxiety and depression and he is 14 and obviously not been to war. I have no problem shooting with him and don't fear for my life. He knows he's responsible for his actions and acts accordingly. He has bad days, and is aware of it, but we don't excuse him from being accountable for his actions. In his case, they think it was brought on by a concusion he received playing football, but no one truly knows. But I can tell you it is real and it's hard on the family sometimes, but he is accountable for his actions and he knows this and is not a threat to us or society. It's just a pain in the a** he knows he has to deal with.

This guy, accused murderer, should be held accountable for his actions and if he cant be then he is not fit for society and should be permanently institutionalized!

[btroj]

PTSD is a disease, not an excuse. Big difference between something being a reason something happened and excusing the behavior.
This guy may have some troubles but who doesn't? His behavior was not excusable and he deserves to be convicted.

[dakotashooter2]

WWI, WWII, and Korean vets weren't doped during the major developmental periods of their lives. Oh, and those vets had both parents, a strong father figure in their lives, Church, and many others.

PTSD is real, but it is faked sooooooooo much and used to get out of trouble. When people start speaking to me of their PTSD issues, I usually shut my ears off and think of good looking women lifting weights with skimpy outfits on.

I blame lack of discipline as a child. Most of these soldiers grew up in time period when "positive reinforcement" was being pushed instead of discipline. You were never supposed to say no to a child. This was also a period of "participation trophys" so no one felt bad about loosing. This left them unprepared for life particularly, anything stressful.................

Everyone has some level of PTSD ...it's called coping with life...........................Some just do it better than others..............

[GabbyM]

His insanity claim won't stand up, he was well aware that what he did was wrong when he stole the truck and ran. He was also aware enough to raise his hands and not get shot when the cops caught up with him. He is a faker and the lowest form of life on this planet.

That's the short of it there.
Texas needs to live up to it's rep and hang this dirt bag with thin rope and a short drop.

[NavyVet1959]

That's the short of it there.
Texas needs to live up to it's rep and hang this dirt bag with thin rope and a short drop.

Unfortunately, the prosecutors chose to not pursue the death penalty against Routh (it's not "Roth").

[btroj]

What? We had a typo on this forum?

Better be careful, the anti-grammar Nazi Nazis will be out soon....

[GabbyM]

Really , ? Shoot two men just for kicks then get sympathy.

[btroj]

Really , ? Shoot two men just for kicks then get sympathy.

Don't know if he is getting sympathy but he sure wants some. If he thinks he has PTSD now wait til he spends some hard time in prison. He will learn what traumatic stress is......

[Char-Gar]

The trial in question has nothing to do with combat or PTSD. It is about where the shooter has the requisite culpable mindset to commit a crime. This is a Texas trial and the legal issue for the jury to decide is;

"Did the defendant suffer from such a disease or defect of the mind, that he did not know the nature and consequences of his acts, or if he did know the nature and consequences of his acts, he did not know what he did was wrong."

There are no list of causes of criminal insanity. There is not medical diagnosis that meets the test above. Shrinks can slap whatever labels on it they want, but nobody cares. The question above is what the jury must answer. The "Insanity" defense is an Affirmative Defense, which means when the Defense assert it, they have the burden to prove it. The State does not have to prove he was sane, that burden falls on the Defense once they raise insanity as a defense.

I read this thread and while it may be of interest of some old vets, it is legal clap trap. The insanity defense in Texas is a very big hurdle to get over, but this guy just may do it. If he does, then he will be locked up in a hospital for the criminally insane for a very long time. Most folks would rather be in prison than that loony bin. Believe it or not, you meet a much better quality of people in a prison vis-a-vi a hospital for the criminally insane.

[Char-Gar]

Unfortunately, the prosecutors chose to not pursue the death penalty against Routh (it's not "Roth").

The prosecutors know this guy has serious mental issues. He has been in mental hospitals several times and was on anti-psychotic drugs. They will argue that "Yes, he has serious mental issues but he does not meet the definition of legal insanity that would make him not culpable of this crime.

Should the prosecutors ask for the death penalty knowing, and the evidence will show, the guy has some serious mental issues, that would alienate the jury. The jury would think the State of Texas wants to kill a crazy man and therefore be much more likely to buy his insanity defense to keep him from being killed.

This stuff is not nearly as simple as you keyboard lawyers want to make it. And if you want to know, yes, I do know what I am talking about, having tried dozens of criminal cases in Texas including some capital murder cases.

[Char-Gar]

His insanity claim won't stand up, he was well aware that what he did was wrong when he stole the truck and ran. He was also aware enough to raise his hands and not get shot when the cops caught up with him. He is a faker and the lowest form of life on this planet.

Any you know that how? I know you are not sitting in the jury box hearing evidence, but the trial has just begun. You read that on some blog, or hear it down at the truck stop. Maybe you saw something on TV about it.

Let the system work. The jurors will hear and see all of the evidence and make the decision. Our system works 99% of the time. It is certainly more reliable that trial by the press, trial by the old wind bags of the community or trial by gun board.

[MaryB]

More like video of the stop that was released.