Fluxing With Sawdust

[Bonz]

Have always used wax for fluxing but after reading numerous posts, I've decided to go with sawdust. Problem was I don't have any sawdust, LOL. I don't do many wood projects and don't see any in my immediate future (still recovering from major surgery). So I drive to Lowe's Hardware (like a Home Depot) and asked several workers in the store if they had sawdust. They sent me a few places to look but no sawdust. Then I remembered the big saw they use in the store to cut wood for customers. I walk over there and look, all the sawdust is sucked up by an internal vacuum. A worker from that area saw me looking around and asked if I needed help. I told him that I needed to buy some sawdust but Lowe's doesn't sell it. He walked in the backroom and returned with a 5 gallon bucket partially filled with sawdust and told me to help myself. He said that its a pain to cleanup because the commercial saw makes such fine sawdust and the store just disposes of it.

So, if you are like me and don't have sawdust laying around in your shop, drive on out to Lowe's hardware or some other store like them and ask.

[btroj]

I know some have used a wood plane to creat a bunch of pine shavings. I use wood small animal bedding. I think it was Geargnasher who used a drill bit on some pine to create a bunch of shavings.

Be creative. It need not be sawdust, any finely divided wood product will work.

Oh, be prepared for the safety lectures on your sawdust. Someone is gonna warn against it because it might contain some treated wood or such.

[oneokie]

Oh, be prepared for the safety lectures on your sawdust. Someone is gonna warn against it because it might contain some treated wood or such.

Yup.
Any wood treated for use as ground contact. Also any manufactured wood-OSB-Particle Board.

[jmort]

This has been discussed ad nauseam, but for around $8.94 you could have a lifetime supply of wood "shavings" in the form of a 20 pound bag of 100% pine pet litter. If that is disagreeable, then make your own or scrounge it. This is what I use
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Feline-Pine-Original-Multi-Cat-Formula-Cat-Litter-20-Lb/10418554

[cbrick]

Now wait a minute, are you expecting us to believe that in a Home Depot someone asked if you needed help. Really? geez, he'll probably get fired for that.

As for engineered wood it is not recommended. Does it work? Yes, perfectly but if you do use it also use exceptionally good ventilation such as outside with a wind blowing or a fan running. Breathing fumes from glue and who knows what just can't be good.

Stay safe & have fun.

[LenH]

I use aspen shavings. My son is a keeper of reptiles and that is what he uses and I always get a couple of coffee cans full when he gets a new bundle.
Works for me.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Lay some sheet plastic on the floor (torn open garbage bags work fine). Set up some saw horses or use an open pail for this purpose. Put a piece of a board or 2x4 on the horses or pail and proceed to cut the wood into small pieces with either a hand saw or a power saw. Collect the sawdust from the plastic sheets and go flux your pot of lead with it.Robert

[Bonz]

Now wait a minute, are you expecting us to believe that in a Home Depot someone asked if you needed help. Really? geez, he'll probably get fired for that.

As for engineered wood it is not recommended. Does it work? Yes, perfectly but if you do use it also use exceptionally good ventilation such as outside with a wind blowing or a fan running. Breathing fumes from glue and who knows what just can't be good.

Stay safe & have fun.

LOL, no it was Lowe's, they are a lot friendlier. I don't go to Home Depot unless I have to... I do all my casting outside, which really sucks right now, so the fumes aren't an issue. I thought the finer the sawdust, the better it would be. I can certainly go to a petstore and get wood shavings that they use for pet bedding if that would work just as well.

[dondiego]

Dry pine needles and dry leaves work too.

[country gent]

I use cedar pet bedding or chips from my wood lathe, Both work very well stirring is import mix from top of pot to bottom pushing wood down into alloy on down stroke and pulling alloy up thru the wood chips on upstroke working it thru the sawdust or wood chips. Allow wood chips to char and become completely dry before stiring. I use a long handles flat spatula for this. the kind for barbequing. A wood paint stirer works well also. Just make sure when using wood to allow to heat and dry out before pushing into thru the lead.

[cbrick]

I use cedar pet bedding or chips from my wood lathe, Both work very well stirring is import mix from top of pot to bottom pushing wood down into alloy on down stroke and pulling alloy up thru the wood chips on upstroke working it thru the sawdust or wood chips. Allow wood chips to char and become completely dry before stiring. I use a long handles flat spatula for this. the kind for barbequing. A wood paint stirer works well also. Just make sure when using wood to allow to heat and dry out before pushing into thru the lead.

Well, if that is working for you. I never try to force anything below the surface. Even though it is much lighter than lead the lead is still dense enough to trap particles under the melt and they will go through the bottom pour spout and into your bullets or be picked up by the ladle, again into the bullets. I always flux by bringing alloy up and pouring through the sawdust. Much like using a wood stick to stir and scrape, pieces break off the charring stick and become trapped. Not for me thanks.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

I know some have used a wood plane to creat a bunch of pine shavings. I use wood small animal bedding. I think it was Geargnasher who used a drill bit on some pine to create a bunch of shavings.

Be creative. It need not be sawdust, any finely divided wood product will work.

Oh, be prepared for the safety lectures on your sawdust. Someone is gonna warn against it because it might contain some treated wood or such.

Dead straight correct...Amen!

[geargnasher]

Yellow pine is my personal preference. As Btroj indicated, even though I have a good friend less than a mile away with a cabinet shop that generates literally tons of hardwood shavings, chips, and dust (pick the machine, get whatever grade I want) and I also have a good bit of woodoworking equipment myself, I still make my own flux using a paddle bit and sappy yellow pine scraps. I can make a coffee can full in 2 minutes. Works enough better than the hardwood stuff (because of the rosin) that I make it instead of getting a pickup load for free.

Gear

[bangerjim]

Yes, watch the stuff you get FREE from big box stores, as they cut flake/particle board. pressure treated (really nasty), and glue-board. None of those are good for your respiratory system! Free is not necessarily always free.

Buy pine pet bedding as mentioned. Safe and it lasts a long time.

Basically any dry carbon-based lifeform will work. I have used the aforementioned pine needles, leaves, all kinds of sawdust from my shop (not walnut). And tumbler walnut shells/corn cobbs are not good either, epecially USED ones as they are heavily contaminated with oxides.

Just watch that FREE sawdust!

bangerjim

[Eddie2002]

I've got a few pine trees on the property that weep pine sap which hardens into chunks of rosin. It is easy enough and a little fun just to chip off the chunks with a small hachet. Getting a little bark into the mix never hurt either. Can fill a coffee can in about five minutes which is enough to last me a good year. One tree always has a pile of rosin the size of my fist mixed in with the old pine needles at the base of the trunk.

[Blackwater]

I guess I'm lucky? Living in SE Ga., we have lots of saw mills around, and literally MOUNTAINS of sawdust. Haven't used any yet because I'm a ladle pourer, and don't want the stuff on top like bottom pour pots can do (and in process prevent oxidation by cutting off the surface from O2). Been going to try it and may yet when I get a chance to do so. If any of you live in or near, or find yourself driving through timber country, you may want to try to pick up a large pile for your casting use. Just a FWIW.

[1911KY]

Luckily I am always doing some kind of wood cutting, but if I didn't, I would just get a scrap piece of lumber and cut it it up. After a few passes you will have a decent amount. You can even use a hand file to create sawdust. I have been making grips for my 1911s and have been producing a lot of sawdust!

[Sticky]

I use pine sawdust/shavings for smelting, but in my bottom pour pot I use beeswax now... seems to work extremely well, much less chance of plugging my spout.

Have some friends that board horses... they buy sawdust by the truckload for the stalls and happened to have picked up some from Tractor Supply recently, a plastic wrapped bundle about 2' x 3' x 2'6". Happened to ask him about some last time I was down and he gladly handed my a couple gallon ziplocs full.. prior to that, I scrounged dust from the chop saw at work that cut up old crate lumber that came from China.. dry, smoked and smells like China when smelting... LOL

I figure if I smelt well with sawdust outside, then when I get in the garage to cast, wax works well for reducing what may float up..

[huntrick64]

Just look up cabinet builders in your area and they will give you all you need. Most of it (if not all of it) will be hardwood too. Ask them for the stuff they get from their planers and jointers. The best I have ever used is the stuff from my jointer when I prepare Osage orange (hedge) for bow making. The stuff is a lot bigger than sawdust, smells great, and does an excellent job. When I run out of that, I go by the cabinet shop and they throw a 30-40 lb contractor bag full in the back of my truck for FREE!

[Budzilla 19]

Just straight processed pine rosin for me, if i'm out of rosin, then pure southern pine sawdust, sawdust does seems to work better in the bottom pour pot, though.I don't know why.

[Love Life]

My flux was collected from freshly cut trees near a pristine stream in the Sierra Nevadas.

[Lefty bullseye shooter]

Being a cabinet maker I never have a shortage of sawdust! I just recently found that mixing said sawdust with used motor oil into a paste burns like hickory in my wood stove! I love free heat. I rarely use pine in the shop but can make all kinds of other dust/chips. I am framing a basement now and have been saving all the sawdust from the mitre saw. This come from construction grade white wood SPF (spruce,pine,fir). I can also gut flour consistancy dust out of the bag of the dust collector. So my question is, how much do I put in a pot?

I have the smelting kit coming offered here by D Crocket. I'm thinking I'll start with smelting 100#'s at a time. So how much for that size a melt? Also should I add tin at this point or add it after I make ingots and am melting the ingots in the casting pot?

Thanks for the help
Scott

[cbrick]

I add nothing when making ingots. You never know what the future will bring or what you may need to cast with in the future, If you add tin or anything else when making your ingots that's what you have. I add my tin by 2% weight of the ingot I add to my casting pot when casting.

Rick

[bangerjim]

Same as Rick. I never "build" my alloys en-mass. Some like to make theirs hundreds of pounds at at time. Whatever fits your needs.

I always add Sn and Sb-ish alloys at the time of brewing up my current mix in the casting pot. I generally let it get to about 35% full and refill with the approx weights to get to my alloy-----using the alloy calc spreadsheet.

Having gobs of ingots of a certain alloy is OK if that is all you ever plan to cast. I tend to vary the mix depending on what I am casting for. And for boolit experimentation.

I do have a ton (well mabe a half ton!) of hardball that I mix with pure Pb and Sn to make 2% in the casting pot, but keep all the "elemental" alloys separate until I need them. Gives me a wide range of variety to play with.

Have fun mixing!

banger

[rexherring]

I've been using hardwood sawdust bagged for smokers that I bought from a meat store. Also works for smoking sausage.

[nvbirdman]

There was a guy in my area cutting up wood to sell for firewood and he had a good sized pile of sawdust so I asked him if I could fill up a coffee can.
I got a lifetime supply for free. My favorite price.

[303Guy]

In my part of the world building regulations require treated timber for construction. You don't want sawdust from that.

[cajun shooter]

We had a member who sold cedar types of wood shavings instead of the common sawdust from cutting saws. I much prefer the shavings, they will sit on top and give off a very nice aroma if of the cedar variety and turn a mundane job into one of pleasure.
I know the entire process only requires the product that you choose, form a carbon so that it will do it's job but we should at least enjoy it.
I will say that I've been using this method for at least 7 years and I feel I need to throw in a note of caution before I close out. It's best to keep your shavings in a sealed container as we all know that wood will absorb water. Here in Louisiana, we have humidity levels above 75% for most of the year and I should of known better on what happened to me. I had been casting the day before and when I went to continue the next day, I found that I had left the top off the bucket. I grabbed a handful for my pot and tossed it in. I used my ladle to push it around and the air around me became flooded with hot drops of the tinsel fairy. Yes, after casting since 1970 I became forgetful about water and lead not being the best of buddies. My shavings had soaked up the moisture from the air and I was lucky to have escaped with only some small burns on my arms. Keep that wood flux sealed. Later David

[bangerjim]

We had a member who sold cedar types of wood shavings instead of the common sawdust from cutting saws. I much prefer the shavings, they will sit on top and give off a very nice aroma if of the cedar variety and turn a mundane job into one of pleasure.
I know the entire process only requires the product that you choose, form a carbon so that it will do it's job but we should at least enjoy it.
I will say that I've been using this method for at least 7 years and I feel I need to throw in a note of caution before I close out. It's best to keep your shavings in a sealed container as we all know that wood will absorb water. Here in Louisiana, we have humidity levels above 75% for most of the year and I should of known better on what happened to me. I had been casting the day before and when I went to continue the next day, I found that I had left the top off the bucket. I grabbed a handful for my pot and tossed it in. I used my ladle to push it around and the air around me became flooded with hot drops of the tinsel fairy. Yes, after casting since 1970 I became forgetful about water and lead not being the best of buddies. My shavings had soaked up the moisture from the air and I was lucky to have escaped with only some small burns on my arms. Keep that wood flux sealed. Later David


That is why sawdust is THE safe and recommended form of fluxing material. Hunks and chunks of wood can and will soak up airborne humidity/mositure and if pushed below the surface, will cause violent releases of steam and a potential molten lead shower on you! Every time I have used a "DRY" stick to stir with, the violent boiling action gave me pause!

I will stick with wood sawdust and a metal stirring tool!

Also, some individuals are highly allergic to certain cedar oils and the smoke from the burning wood can cause respiratory distress. So be careful.

banger

[glockky]

I use the sawdust that catches in the bag of my circular saw. I personally only use sawdust now to flux in my smelting pot. I have had a lot of problems when using it in my casting pot. I always end up with dirty boolits.

[cbrick]

I use the sawdust that catches in the bag of my circular saw. I personally only use sawdust now to flux in my smelting pot. I have had a lot of problems when using it in my casting pot. I always end up with dirty boolits.

Are trying to force it under the melt and/or using a wood stick to stir?

Rick

[bangerjim]

I use the sawdust that catches in the bag of my circular saw. I personally only use sawdust now to flux in my smelting pot. I have had a lot of problems when using it in my casting pot. I always end up with dirty boolits.

That is why I tired (and quit very rapidly) using sawdust in my casting pot. You really do not need to flux, as you have already done it 3X in your re-melting pot when making your ingots. Your feed ingots should be 100% clean and pure, right?

I use only beeswax in my casting pots to reduce the Sn back in. Works like magic and does not contaminate any boolit castings I do with my bottom pour pots. And sawdust tended to get stuck in the bottom spigot and cause pour problems. (How it gets down there, I never did figure out!) Since I stopped using wood dust and cleaned the pot of any burned wood garbage, eveything is perfect.

Works for me.

banger

[geargnasher]

How it gets down there is you put it down there, either on the end of an ingot or handfull of sprues, on your stirring spoon, or by scratching around on the bottom of the pot with a stick. If you're using clean metal in the casting pot, all you may need is a sacrificial wax reducant to revert the oxide scum, but I prefer to use sawdust anyway because it best adsorbs "contaminant" metals in oxide form, so applying directly to the surface after all the oxides have been floated up there makes sense to me.

Gear

[cbrick]

Your ingots would be perfectly clean assuming proper fluxing. I suspect from a huge number of posts on this forum over the years that very few people understand how or do proper fluxing. I use sawdust in the smelting pot and I also use it in all of my casting pots every time I turn on the pot or add new ingots to it, been doing so for many years. I never have anything in the bottom valve or in the alloy that comes up in the ladle. My bullets are clean, my bottom valve is clean and my bullets are clean. Anyone using sawdust and getting anything under the melt about has to be because they put it there, sawdust did not sink in lead.

Stirring with a wood stick is the easiest way to get charred, burnt wood under the surface of the melt, the stick is charring as you stir and flaking off bits of burnt wood, scraping the sides and bottom is even worse. Lead is dense enough to hold it there where it will be drawn to the bottom spigot or brought up in a ladle and poured into bullets.

Rick

[therealhitman]

My flux was collected from freshly cut trees near a pristine stream in the Sierra Nevadas.

Mine too! Did your tree have Unicorns dancing with Pixies around a stream of molten linotype feeding a silver pond in the shape of a 358311? I know...right?

[Love Life]

That's exactly how it occurred.

[montana_charlie]

My flux was collected from freshly cut trees near a pristine stream in the Sierra Nevadas.
Is that stream spring-fed ... or snowmelt?

[Love Life]

Both.

[therealhitman]

Sweeeeeeeeet!

[retread]

My table saw cuts everything from pine to particle board, so I do not go to it for my flux. My planer however, is used only for wood so that is my source for flux. Like Gear I prefer yellow pine.

[bangerjim]

Yes, if you have a thickness planer or jointer, you have a lifetime supply of wood flakes that replenishes very rapidly! My double bag dust collector fills up rather rapidly every time I thickness stock or run stock thru the jointer! Wife uses it for plant stuff (except the walnut!). If you do not own one, find a buddy that does.

[borg]

I found out a while back that cedar or juniper fronds make good flux.

I pick out the grey, dead, DRY and crush them up, and pick out the stems and leave I guess what you'd call leaves.
If you have or get cedar fever, don't use this.
Be carefull, smells good, but it IS lead.

[NavyVet1959]

More often than not, when I'm smelting, I'm fluxing with sawdust. I have a 5g bucket in the garage that I dump the dust collection bag from my miter saw. One the bucket gets full, the rest ends up either in the trash or mixed with dirt in the yard. When I change the oil in my car, I often put the oil filter in it after the oil has drained for awhile in the oil collection pan, so there's a little bit of used motor oil with that flux, but not much. If I'm fluxing outside, I sometimes use used motor oil. It has the advantage of adding quite a bit of BTUs into the process. I only do that at night though so that none of the neighbors notice the black smoke and call the fire department. :)

[cbrick]

From "Ingot to Target" by Glen Fryxell. Chapter 4.

Aside from smoking like a chimney and stinking to high heaven, used motor oil also has the disadvantage of being a
source for contaminating metals (ferrous alloys, aluminum alloys, bearing metal alloys, even magnesium depending on what motor it came out of).

Perhaps not the best choice.

Rick

[NavyVet1959]

From "Ingot to Target" by Glen Fryxell. Chapter 4.

Aside from smoking like a chimney and stinking to high heaven, used motor oil also has the disadvantage of being a
source for contaminating metals (ferrous alloys, aluminum alloys, bearing metal alloys, even magnesium depending on what motor it came out of).

Perhaps not the best choice.


Perhaps, but I've never noticed any problems that I could blame on it. I doubt that the contaminating metals are in a large enough quantity to affect anything.

[olafhardt]

I skipped most of this. A pound of sugar will Flux lots of alloy so will corn meal. You really should use grits when making Mini balls to shoot Yankees with. Chicken scratch feed works but the last batch I used popped like corn.

[btroj]

Sugar? That is a sweet idea!

It will work about the same as a wax

[NavyVet1959]

Sugar? That is a sweet idea!

It will work about the same as a wax

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Fluxes%20for%20casting%20alloy.pdf

[Houndog]

Does your local High School have a woodshop class? Mine does, and the Teacher is glad to give all the sawdust and shavings I want. He even has the kids sweep it up, bag it, and carry it to my Pickup.

[LeRoy.Beans]

I have used sawdust but I don't anymore. I found that it could pick up some moisture and when I stir it to the bottom of the pot, that moisture becomes steam and you know what happens next. No sawdust for me.

[cbrick]

Why would you try to get it to the bottom of the pot? Have you read this thread? You should never try to get it below the surface of the melt. Try reading posts 11 & 34.

Rick

[cajun shooter]

That is why sawdust is THE safe and recommended form of fluxing material. Hunks and chunks of wood can and will soak up airborne humidity/mositure and if pushed below the surface, will cause violent releases of steam and a potential molten lead shower on you! Every time I have used a "DRY" stick to stir with, the violent boiling action gave me pause!

I will stick with wood sawdust and a metal stirring tool!

Also, some individuals are highly allergic to certain cedar oils and the smoke from the burning wood can cause respiratory distress. So be careful.

banger

Bangerjim, When I said shavings, I did not say anything about chunks and hunks of wood. You are reading what you want into my posting and not what was posted. I've been casting since 1970 and that was the first and only time I had that happen. You were not a member when this wood flux was sold and have no idea of how it looked. A shaving could be .002 in size, that is certainly not a hunk or chunk as you say.
As far as the type of wood it was, I said a type of cedar, it was from local trees and not treated with any chemicals. We have many members who used this product, and I don't think anyone went to the hospital.
Unless you live in Louisiana you have no idea of what can and does happen here in just a few hours with moisture. If I had a bucket of sawdust, it would of also had water vapor in it.
Now if I could just find that 2x4 that I was using as a flux stick and I hope that because it's treated I won't have any problems. Unreal assumptions that people have. Later David

[LeRoy.Beans]

Why would you try to get it to the bottom of the pot? Have you read this thread? You should never try to get it below the surface of the melt. Try reading posts 11 & 34.

Rick

yeah, I read'em. I dont' agree with them either.

There are a lot of other things to use as flux that are cheap, available, work as well (or better), and are SAFER.

[btroj]

Moisture isn't really an issue. I put the stuff on the surface of the melt and let it sit for a bit. Is gives plenty of time to drive off all moisture. After that you can pour molten lead thu it, stir, or do whatever it is you do.
Dumping it on the surface and instantly pushing it under the surface is a procedural problem, not a material problem.

[cbrick]

yeah, I read'em. I dont' agree with them either.

There are a lot of other things to use as flux that are cheap, available, work as well (or better), and are SAFER.

Well Leroy, the simple truth is that there are people willing to learn and expand their knowledge and there are people with closed minds.

Rick

[John Boy]

You want free sawdust? Look in the yellow pages for cabinet makers, lumber mill or mill works. Bring your own 50 gallon drum though!

[LeRoy.Beans]

Well Leroy, the simple truth is that there are people willing to learn and expand their knowledge and there are people with closed minds.

Rick

I'm sorry to hear you are one of those with a closed mind. But carry on. In the end, all that matters to me is SAFELY producing the best quality bullets. I have accomplished that.

[NavyVet1959]

If you are using sawdust and you try to push it below the surface, you can tell if there is any moisture in it since you can hear the bubbling / outgassing. Same with using a wooden stir stick. If that happens, then stop pushing it below the surface! Let it sit for a short time and it will dry up and you can push to your heart's content after that.

Hmm... I wonder how well cypress wood would work for fluxing... The sap on it can definitely be messy (compared to some other trees at least).

After Hurricane Ike, there were a LOT of cedar fences blown down around here. Of course, the rails and posts are pressure treated and should not be burnt, but the pickets were just plain cedar. I suspect that I have enough stir sticks and flux to last a few lifetimes from the remains of the fencing that I lost even after all the wooden boxes and such that I've made for storing nails, screws, bolts, and stuff in my garage.

[LeRoy.Beans]

If you are using sawdust and you try to push it below the surface, you can tell if there is any moisture in it since you can hear the bubbling / outgassing. Same with using a wooden stir stick. If that happens, then stop pushing it below the surface! Let it sit for a short time and it will dry up and you can push to your heart's content after that.

Yup.

But why wait? Just use something better. About a billion things out there that work super well and don't have the issues that sawdust or wood does.

[mold maker]

Let the sawdust/shavings sit on top your melt, until they are fully charred/burned. Thats when it becomes flux. It's the carbon that does the job. Then stir and lift the melt and pour it through the carbon remains of the sawdust.
Stirring with a DRY wooden stick is OK if you keep it OFF the bottom and sides of the pot. Then scrape the pot insides with your metal spatula/spoon or what ever. That brings any crud being held there, to the surface, where you spoon it off as dross.
If properly done, the contaminates have been removed and all the oxides are back in the melt leaving a shiny surface. To keep more oxides from forming (in a bottom pour pot) add another fresh spoon full of sawdust. Let it sit as an insulation and barrier to the O2 that forms oxides.
I never stir anything into your melt until it's totally charred/melted.
Never put a cold metal or wooden tool under the melt without giving it a chance to heat/dry.
Just think, and use common sense, to totally avoid an experience with the famous fairy.

[btroj]

What are these things that are better than sawdust? Please limit it to 10, I don't have time to read a list of the entire billion.

[LeRoy.Beans]

How about beeswax, candle stubs, crayons, rosin, canning wax, junk lubed bullets. I'll let you work it out from there.

[NavyVet1959]

How about beeswax, candle stubs, crayons, rosin, canning wax, junk lubed bullets. I'll let you work it out from there.

None of which are as common as sawdust and used motor oil around *here* at least.

[btroj]

Ah, reducing agents. And how are you removing the undesirable material from your melt?

[LeRoy.Beans]

None of which are as common as sawdust and used motor oil around *here* at least.


That's too bad. Keep using sawdust if you want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[bangerjim]

How about beeswax, candle stubs, crayons, rosin, canning wax, junk lubed bullets. I'll let you work it out from there.

All of those are great REDUCERS as btroj said, not fluxes. Both have their place, but a reducer will not clean the garbage and gunk out of your dirty filthy COWW's in your re-melting pot.

I use beeswax exclusively in my casting pot to REDUCE the Sn back in because all my feed ingots are 100% clean. That is because I used SAWDUST 3X as a flux when making the clean ingots. Final time - a small piece of paraffin along with the sawdust.

The aforementioned items may appear to be cleaning all the gunk out but they do not......at lease for my high standards for alloys and past experimentation. I do not want gunk in my feed ingots and in the bottom of my bottom pour pots and in my cast boolits.

This has been cussed and discussed way too many times to count on here.

banger

[NavyVet1959]

That's too bad. Keep using sawdust if you want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Great... I was really concerned that it might hurt your feelings... :)

[cbrick]

How about beeswax, candle stubs, crayons, rosin, canning wax, junk lubed bullets. I'll let you work it out from there.

Not a chance that ANY of those will flux your alloy. Why? Simply because they are not fluxes and your deciding to call them flux changes nothing. But I don't believe for second that you will believe that so carry on.

There are others however that would like to learn and expand their knowledge so for them don't fall for the old wives tales.

For those who would prefer some actual knowledge on the subject I highly recommend chapter 4 in the following. I recommend the entire book but chapter 4 is on fluxing.

From Ingot To Target by Glen Fryxell (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

Rick

[LeRoy.Beans]

All of those are great REDUCERS as btroj said, not fluxes. Both have their place, but a reducer will not clean the garbage and gunk out of your dirty filthy COWW's in your re-melting pot.

Well, strangely, you are wrong - at least in MY pot. I'm only interested in best quality bullets and so they prove to be in matches all the time.

Must be magic, but it works nonetheless.

In the end, they are all organic hydrocarbons, wax, sawdust, rosin, whatever. I don't think the "garbage and junk" much care where those hydrocarbons come from actually, they are just glad to see'em and glom on and out they go.

[LeRoy.Beans]

Great... I was really concerned that it might hurt your feelings... :)

Nope not a problem at all, but your ego seems to be badly bruised.

So funny how some people get all upset about folks that don't care to follow their gospels from on high, but I'm sure you will get over it. Time heals all (if you don't catch any moisture in that sawdust anyway)....

[btroj]

I give up

[bangerjim]

I give up

I am with you.

[LeRoy.Beans]

I'm cool with that.

Onward and I'll continue to hope the best for you.

[cbrick]

I give up

No Brad, don't give up. We both know that there are people that know more than anybody and everybody and the thought of them learning ANYTHING from the unwashed lesser people couldn't possibly occur to them.

However, we both also know that there are people both willing and eager to learn and they read these posts also. Thus the reason for my posts, certainly not to try and pry open a closed steel trap which as we both know is a waste of time.

Rick

[NavyVet1959]

Nope not a problem at all, but your ego seems to be badly bruised.

So funny how some people get all upset about folks that don't care to follow their gospels from on high, but I'm sure you will get over it. Time heals all (if you don't catch any moisture in that sawdust anyway)....

LMAO! I don't care what anyone uses for flux. I use what is convenient for me and what seems to work. Sawdust and used motor oil is what is most readily available for *me* and it seems to be good enough for my uses. A long range shot for me would be maybe 50 yards though -- the brush is just too thick to see very far. So, as long as my bullets and loads are accurate to MOH ("minute of hog"), I'm satisfied.

[LeRoy.Beans]

Then you're good! For me, a long range shot is 1000 yds. It's gotta be at least a 9 on average to win.

[NavyVet1959]

Then you're good! For me, a long range shot is 1000 yds. It's gotta be at least a 9 on average to win.

Just curious... Where are you located that you can have shots like that? Definitely not typical for the hunting that I do.

[LeRoy.Beans]

I shoot all around the country. From Tennessee in the East to Arizona in the West, and many places in between.

[ballistim]

deleted

[NavyVet1959]

I shoot all around the country. From Tennessee in the East to Arizona in the West, and many places in between.

I just hunt close to home. The brush is so thick locally that I'm luck to see 50 FEET, much less 50 YARDS. There's a couple of ranges around here that have the distance that you mention, but I just don't see the need for it. Besides, I'm usually hunting with a .45-70 and at the distances you are talking about, that's not shooting, that's ARTILLERY... :)

[BrentD]

Navyvet1959,
I am having a heck of a time posting for some reason, but, lots of people, including myself, travel oround the nation every year to shoot long range (1000 yd) . Though I mostly shoot silhouette, Creedmoor shooting is great fun (lots moreso than typing on this darn cell phone). It is probably the finest example of cast bullet shooting with either muzzle loaders or cartridge rifles, and many people do it with bullets cast using beeswax or similar stuff for flux.

I too do not like using sawdust for flux. Tried it and got spattered with lead. I do not doubt it can be made to work, but that hardly means that beeswax will not. I also still use some flux that I bought from Walt at NEI some years ago. Works great, no danger of lead spatter (or worse). I think Walt knew what he was about. To each his own, but do not sell beeswax and the other nondust stuff short.

Now let's see if this will post right this time.

[geargnasher]

Beeswax etc. does not any ability whatsoever to act as a true FLUX by removing undesirable metallic contaminants. Those can only be removed by adsorption via activated carbon or other adsorbers such as molten borate glass.

Beeswax etc. are sacrificial reducants, which revert oxidized metals to their elemental state through electron transfer. That's all they do, and are capable of doing, PERIOD.

It's simple chemistry, not mumbo-jumbo. If you wanna argue with that, go tell it to a post, 'cause I'm not listening.

Gear

[cbrick]

It is probably the finest example of cast bullet shooting with either muzzle loaders or cartridge rifles, and many people do it with bullets cast using beeswax or similar stuff for flux.

I too do not like using sawdust for flux. Tried it and got spattered with lead. I do not doubt it can be made to work, but that hardly means that beeswax will not. I also still use some flux that I bought from Walt at NEI some years ago. Works great, no danger of lead spatter (or worse). I think Walt knew what he was about. To each his own, but do not sell beeswax and the other nondust stuff short.

Now let's see if this will post right this time.

I tried calling the dog poop in my back yard rose bushes so I wouldn't have to pick it. Didn't work, it's still dog poop. Folks can call wax flux or rose bushes or dog poop but it won't work, it won't be any of those things.

I've used nothing but sawdust for many years and not single pop or splatter or as some claim, dirty alloy & bullets. I guess if someone tried to force wet sawdust under the surface of the melt you would get both the tinsel fairy and dirty bullets but that's very much the wrong way to use it.

Go to post #68 and click on the link, the whole thing is explained in very easy to understand language. Bottom line is that wax is not flux, wax cannot flux simply because it is not flux. Wax is a good reductant but so is sawdust plus sawdust is also a flux.

Rick

[BrentD]

Gears,
I like chemistry, but as some have said earlier in this thread, you need to keep an open mind :)

What works is what works. Beeswax works plain and simple. Why does that bother you?

Oh well, I will keep using wax and winning matches.

I think that is really all anyone is saying. What is so bad about that?

[BrentD]

Rick, was it not you that said something about keeping an open mind? Why the anger?

Did you call up old Walt Melander (I hope I got that name right) and yell at him for marketing what he called flux and which works extremely well for that purpose?

Lots of anger here in you sawdusters.

[cbrick]

Anger? Really?

What Walt sold as flux is flux, same as Marvalux, a true flux but in no way a reductant, it removes everything.

What you amazingly take as anger isn't even remotely close. And no it's not even intended to open a closed mind. It is however for others that read these posts that actually do want to learn something.

Rick

[BrentD]

Rick, you sure read angry to me. Seems to be alot of personal esteem at stake for some of you. Why are you so angry that some folks flux with wax? If it works for them, why does that bother you?

After all, in just a few moments whether you start with with wax or whatever its all just carbon.

Anyway some of us do fine with wax. And we do not have a lot of anger management issues either.

[LeRoy.Beans]

Anger? Really?

What Walt sold as flux is flux, same as Marvalux, a true flux but in no way a reductant, it removes everything.

What you amazingly take as anger isn't even remotely close. And no it's not even intended to open a closed mind. It is however for others that read these posts that actually do want to learn something.

Rick

Lookin' to me like ya DON'T want others to read that they can shoot great scores with great bullets cast using lot of other stuff for flux...

I'm likin' that sugar idea just for fun... :)

[cbrick]

No Brent, it's exactly like I said. Other people read these threads and many of them wish to learn. I haven't the slightest anger for closed minds, a bit of pity maybe but anger? No.

Rick

[cbrick]

Lookin' to me like ya DON'T want others to read that they can shoot great scores with great bullets cast using lot of other stuff for flux...

If you keep telling yourself that over and over it will give you a warm fuzzy feeling.

Rick

[geargnasher]

No, it isn't all just carbon. The byproducts of wax combustion (which is a redox reaction) are heat, CO, CO2, C, H2O, and trace other stuff. The carbon form is just soot, it doesn't adsorb jack because it forms above the surface of the melt and floats off as smoke. In the presence of metallic oxides like lead, tin, antimony, silver, gold, and copper, this redox reaction involves the transfer of oxygen molecules from the metals to the carbon in the wax as the hydrocarbon chains break down. Essentially you take HC and, say SnO2, and end up with CO2, H2O, and elemental Sn. The carbon dioxide and water exit stage left as vapor and your shiny tin remains behind to do it's job in your alloy.

But what if you have some calcium oxide in your alloy? Or Zinc oxide? Guess what, wax won't reduce those. Wax won't adsorb them, either, so they stay in your melt to play hoc with fill out and the flux, or "flow" (to use the English translation) of the alloy. What to do? Well, due to ionic attraction and the nature of the microscopic surface texture of charcoal, these sorts of un-reduced, contaminant oxides get sucked right up by direct exposure to charcoal bits on the surface of the melt, where they are captured long enough for us to skim it all off.

Now, what can reduce the oxides we want to keep, while quarantining the stuff we'd like to get rid of? SAWDUST! It does both things we want to do, it reduces good oxides like wax does, but it does more, it makes charcoal that will slurp up the bad stuff so when we skim, we only take out the bad and leave the good in usable form.

If you have bad stuff in your alloy, and want to get rid of it, you'll have to flux as well as reduce. Grease/wax/oil only does the reducing, not the fluxing. You can use beeswax to reduce and borax to flux if you like and it will work fine, but you have to deal with the mess of using borax. Do what you prefer, but remember that borax is far more hygroscopic than sawdust and far easier to get under your melt. It also hardens into a glaze mess when it cools, coats everything, rusts steel, and will cause one hell of a steam explosion if you have any on a spoon and submerge it in the melt. And some people think sawdust is dangerous? If you're just using wax, you're only doing half the job. If you have reagent grade alloy with no contaminants, then I suppose all you need to do is keep the oxides reduced and will have no need for any sort of flux....but for those of us who use random, contaminated lead scrap a lot from any cheap to free source we can find, we need to do the whole job to cast the best bullets.

Gear

[30Carbine]

Gear actually you are right on part of your statement but, simply putting sawdust on the melt does not make charcoal, charcoal can only be made true in the absence of oxygen.
what burning sawdust makes on our melt is ash. for charcoal to work like you think it should you need to use activated carbon or activated charcoal which is about the same thing. again can only be made in the absence of oxygen. glen was right on that you need activated carbon but you don't get that with just burning sawdust on the top of a melt.

I use sawdust on my pots just to make a oxygen free zone and to reduce the tin back in. but in the smelting pot I go a step further and add activated carbon to it. you know where I get it go to any junk yard and pull the evap cans off of old cars break them open and there you go. most junk yard will almost give them to you.

[olafhardt]

Water is able to remove reactive components from molten metals that carbon will not. But you can't put water in the melt. You could blow superheated steam through the melt if you got it handy. But there is an easy way to put water into the melt by stirring in carbohydrates such as sugar, starch or wood. If you leave the carbohydrates lay on the top of the melt, the water is driven off by heat and carbon is left which does not attack zinc, aluminum, calcium and other reactive metals as rapidly as steam. So if you throw in some carbohydrate and shove it under the surface before it chars it will release steam into the melt where the reactive metals will snatch the oxygen off the water molecules and leave hydrogen which along with the carbon reduces the oxides of the less active metals. Thus the carbohydrates recover the lead and tin and strip out the zinc, aluminum, calcium, magnesium etc. It's basic chemistry.

[Airman Basic]

Noticed Wally World sells activated charcoal for $20 a 2 pound bottle. Use as flux? Should last a while and it's already charcoal.
http://www.walmart.com/c/bg/activated-carbon-buying-guide
No worries about introducing moisture to the melt, I imagine.

[bangerjim]

Fish aqurium filters use activated charcoal if you are interested in going down that path. sold almost everywhere the sell pet stuff.

[higgins]

If you have a chainsaw, you probably have oiled sawdust under the sprocket cover. I probably have my oiler set to put out more oil than some, so yours may not be as oily as mine. If you have a selection of logs or firewood, you have a choice of hardwood or softwood sawdust.

[geargnasher]

Gear actually you are right on part of your statement but, simply putting sawdust on the melt does not make charcoal, charcoal can only be made true in the absence of oxygen.
what burning sawdust makes on our melt is ash. for charcoal to work like you think it should you need to use activated carbon or activated charcoal which is about the same thing. again can only be made in the absence of oxygen. glen was right on that you need activated carbon but you don't get that with just burning sawdust on the top of a melt.

I use sawdust on my pots just to make a oxygen free zone and to reduce the tin back in. but in the smelting pot I go a step further and add activated carbon to it. you know where I get it go to any junk yard and pull the evap cans off of old cars break them open and there you go. most junk yard will almost give them to you.

True. "Activated" essentially means that the charcoal is formed under controlled conditions to maximize the surface area, it's like a sponge. But what we make on the surface of the melt at the sawdust turns black is still useful and does the job. I advocate skimming before it turns to ash for the reason you stated.

Now, how much free oxygen do you really think is present in the reducing atmosphere just off the melt's surface? I'll wager pretty close to zero if you light off the sawdust with a BBQ lighter. Charcoal aplenty is formed on top of my melt under these conditions, and it does remove some junk. After several sawdust fluxings, that abates and clean black grains are all that are left to skim.

Gear

[30Carbine]

AH I did not know you lit off the sawdust I don't remember you saying that earlier, so yea you are making basic activated charcoal that is something that needs to be pointed out to new guys that don't understand the y of the process. yes you are correct you have to light it off to get charcoal, I use to run argon over the melt from my tig but that get's real expensive real quick. now I have 2 55 gallon drums from evap cans so no worry. also yes sawdust is the best thing everyone can get a hold of that is free or near free today.
it still works the same I still don't get y everyone thinks that just using wax or oil is a flux but each his own.

[edctexas]

Just be sure that you "sawdust" flux is purely wood. Free sawdust from Lowes or Home Depot etc. has the glues from particle board and OSB. The glue is not human friendly when it is brunt.

Beewax is a great reducer. Better than parafin or candle wax. Nearly any pure wood product (animal litter, wood sawdust, etc) will be a great flux. Flux works to turn the unwanted compounds into dross. A reducer (wax and other) takes tin oxide and antimony oxide and release those two desireable metals back to the melt.

I love the smell of beeswax and cedar shavings in the casting area!

Ed C

[Cowboy_Dan]

So do light the sawdust? The only time I tried smelting so far my pet bedding spontaneousky combusted because the melt was way too hot.

Also, my pet bedding has small bits of paper in it. Is this ok or do I need to remove them?

[btroj]

The pet bedding I have is all wood but a bit of paper isn't a big deal. I put a bunch on the surface and let it sit for a bit, maybe 30 seconds. It will begin to smoke and smolder. I then start spooning lead from the pot and pouring it thru the wood. Once it starts to really smoke I light it with a match, mostly to keep the smoke down. Keep spooning lead thru the flux. Once the firs is out I stir like crazy bringing metal up from the bottom of the pot. I then skim the wood debris off the surface. It should be light stuff as it should have no discernible metal in it. If there is still a metal sludge on the surface I wait to skim til I repeat enough times to get that melted in.

[Hannibal]

The biggest discovery I have made with help from forum members is to use a SS spoon to scrape the sides/bottom of my pot with and never, EVER push anything below the surface. The lead should be clean already before it goes into the casting pot. No need to get all that junk into the melt when you're tryin' to cast perfect boolits. Since I adopted these methods my cheap Lee pot has never dribbled or clogged. Not once. I'm from Missouri, and that showed me.

[pdgh59]

I had my first attempt at using sawdust on Sunday. I had twenty pounds of dross accumulated over the years that I was too lazy to throw away. Four lots of sawdust reduced the dross to approx 10 pounds of very hard alloy. I will do a hardness test on them next weekend. I am converted to sawdust. Thank you for showing me the light.

[Bonz]

From Ingot To Target by Glen Fryxell (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

Rick

This is the article that I referred to that changed my mind from fluxing with wax and begin using "sawdust" as flux

"Is there anything that combines these two modes of operation so that wecan get all three of the desired attributes? Fortunately, there is. What’s more,you probably already have a pile of it in your shop. It’s good ol’ fashionedsawdust (hold the motor oil, thank you). The benefits of sawdust are that it‘s asacrificial reductant that can reduce any oxidized tin back to the metallic state,and it‘s cheap enough that the caster can use enough to form an effectivebarrier layer to protect the alloy from subsequent oxidation. What’s more, asthe sawdust chars on top of the melt, it forms activated carbon, which is a highsurface area, porous sorbent material that has a large number of binding sitescapable of binding Lewis acid cations like Ca, Zn and Al. So it not only keepsthe tin reduced and in solution, but it effectively scavenges those impuritiesthat raise the surface tension and viscosity of the alloy (Al, Zn and Ca), keepingthe alloy in top shape for making good bullets. Vigorously stirring in a heapingtablespoon of sawdust into a pot full of bullet metal does a fine job ofconditioning and protecting that alloy. Sawdust doesn’t really qualify under theformal definition of “flux” as it doesn’t produce a fusible slag, but it does verycheaply and very effectively accomplish the three primary goals that we set outfor cleaning up bullet metal. Reduce, remove and protect, sawdust does it all! "

[cbrick]

Gear actually you are right on part of your statement but, simply putting sawdust on the melt does not make charcoal, charcoal can only be made true in the absence of oxygen.
what burning sawdust makes on our melt is ash. for charcoal to work like you think it should you need to use activated carbon or activated charcoal which is about the same thing. again can only be made in the absence of oxygen. glen was right on that you need activated carbon but you don't get that with just burning sawdust on the top of a melt.

Well . . . From Glen Fryxell.

What’s more, as the sawdust chars on top of the melt, it forms activated carbon, which is a high surface area, porous sorbent material that has a large number of binding sites capable of binding Lewis acid cations like Ca, Zn and Al.

What are Glen's qualifications to make such a statement? Here is a short description of his qualifications . . .

He has more awards, degrees, citations than would be practical to cut & paste here. In short, he is: Chief Scientist; Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Adjunct Professor of Chemistry, One of the countries leading scientists in nanotechnology, been published in too many scientific journal's to list, author of several books in his field, over 7,700 citations by his peers and far more, I could go on and on.

I don't think I'll argue with him or pretend to be more knowledgeable.

Rick

EDIT to add, in addition he is also a life long devout cast bullet handgun hunter.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Water is able to remove reactive components from molten metals that carbon will not. But you can't put water in the melt...

Well, actually you can put water in the melt...

I once read an article from a visit to a shotshell factory. They made their own shot through the short drop system. As for fluxing the molten lead, they used raw potatoes!! I tried it (very reluctantly, I may add) and it actually works great. You can force the potatoes below the surface, causing a stream of bubbles rising up through the melt, but hardly any splatter and no explosions - and, as a bonus, it smells like when you were roasting potatoes in the embers of the campfire as a kid.

[NavyVet1959]

As for fluxing the molten lead, they used raw potatoes!! I tried it (very reluctantly, I may add) and it actually works great. You can force the potatoes below the surface, causing a stream of bubbles rising up through the melt, but hardly any splatter and no explosions - and, as a bonus, it smells like when you were roasting potatoes in the embers of the campfire as a kid.

Well, I guess we have a use for potatoes that have started to go rotten now...

Or maybe another use for potato peelings for those who do not eat the skins on fried or baked potatoes?

If potatoes work, how about onions? Might make an interesting smell to confuse people nearby... :)

Come to think of it, I have a bunch of wild chives in my yard...

[geargnasher]

I've used unsalted potato chips before, grits, and some stale corn meal, essentially things we inherited which were for one reason or another not fit for human consumption (ever try salt-free, baked potato chips?) I agree it all worked.

IIRC Dr. Fryxell also did original research on the effects of heavy metal poisoning on children for on of his degrees, interesting stuff.

Gear