Custom Mold Boring

[Greg5278]

I just received my homemade mold block back from Steve Fotou at Victory molds. I did all of the machining on the blocks except for the cavity. He lathe bored the 12 gauge cavities for me.

His machining is first rate, and he spends the additional time to cut a special air relief. His molds are polished and deburred to ensure trouble free casting.
His air relief will not get clogged or trap air. I had two molds bored for 12 gauge, and both were heavy slugs, 820, and 860Grains in WW.
One is a Maxi-ball design, and is perfect, the other is a Truncated Cone design, and is wonderful.

He also will bore other mold blocks, and rework existing molds for a reasonable fee. I encourage you guys to check him out at
www.victorymolds.com .

I will be sending my future business his way. Mr Fotou is eager to answer your questions, and make sure you get exactly what you want.
Greg Sappington

[Buckshot]

..............Sounds like a good resource, especially about reworking an existing mould.

.............Buckshot

[PatMarlin]

Greg- what do you use your 12ga slugs for, and what does re-working an old mold consist of?

[Greg5278]

Pat, my slugs are used for Deer, and Wild pigs. They are for rifled barrels only. My mold was bored on a set of blocks that I made myself. He can bore out messed up molds to larger calibers, assuming there is sufficient space between the handle slots. He could change a 45 Colt mold to 12 gauge if the blocks are large enough.

Molds that have been damaged through careless use can be rebored, or fine tuned and saved. Some molds do not hold the alignment well, and Steve will add another pin to ensure the bullets are round, and straight.

Greg

[Buckshot]

............Greg, if you'd like to send me one each of your slugs I'd be happy to pohograph them and post pics. PM for my address if you don't still have it, and would like to have that done.

...............Buckshot

[Greg5278]

Thanks buckshot, one of the other membersmade the same offer. I sent them today, So hopefully you guys can see pics next week. I hope he puts a .22 or something next to it for perspective, because that slug is big. It mikes .734"diameter, by .950" long
Greg

[fatnhappy]

I'd be very interested in seeing those pics. I have a couple of fully rifled 12 gauges I feed.

[longbow]

Greg5278

Have you got pictures of the slugs? I would like to see them.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

Guys, I am still waiting on the pics from someone else. I hope they can get them up soon, so you can check them out. I guess I have to work on my digital camera skills. Greg

[lar45]

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/misc/12ga-01.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/misc/12ga-02.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/misc/12ga-03.jpg

Hi Greg, sorry for the huge delay in getting these up. Those are some gnarly lookin slugs.

[Greg5278]

Thanks LAR45. The first slug is a 770 Grain Truncated cone bullet. The second is an 860 grain Maxi-ball design. The third is an 811 grain Whitworth.
All of the slugs are cast in Wheelweight plus 2% Tin. I have some other molds, but didn't have any other slugs cast for pictures.

The 770 grain TC bullet shoots 1-2 inch groups at 50 yards. You can probably do better, but the 52-58 Ft-LBS of recoil makes it difficult. I sight in with a 10# sandbag between my shoulder, and the buttplate. I have yet to recover a slug from an animal. In clay, and fired as cast they mushroom to 1.125". When Heat treated they stay together, and do not rivet or expand. the Muzzle velocity is 1400 FPS.
Greg S

[Bman]

I have had visions of this very thing something like the Whitworth, loaded into a FL Brass case. Although that TC looks mighty fine also. Only I think I'd want a crimp groove and some custom dies to load her up like a steriodal straight wall cartridge. My assumption is that you load these in regular shot shell hulls?

My idea was to add some type of express sights to a Savage bolt action slug gun. Then 'enjoy' a modern 12 Bore rifle.

[Greg5278]

I load them in regular plastic hulls. They are limited innpressure to the same as a brass hull. The Action is the major limiting factor in shotgun performance.
The recoil is heavy already, I don't think most people can handle any more. The 1400FPS load is pretty rough, and my 615 grain hollow base is worse. It literally kills on both ends. I fired one shot last year from a treestand, and was only able to put half of the buttstock on my shoulder. The rail on the stand would not allow a proper stock mounting, if it wasn't for the many layers of clothing, I probably would have been hurt. Greg

[Buckshot]

...........Bman, I was kind of thinking the same thing. Could you see a 16ga rifled barrel single shot like an H&R using a tapered or necked 12ga brass hull as a cartridge case?

http://www.fototime.com/7C6776752B29618/standard.jpg

The above was for a different project, and are 32ga. Yet the casemouth will still take a .520" or somesuch diameter slug. Case length on these brass Mag-Tech cases is 2.5". They're all pocketed now to take large pistol primers. Previously they took a Mag-Tech #56 Berdan primer. Those primers were REALLY sorry and would pierce if you looked at them sternly.

I don't know and never did look to see the chamber differences between a paper hull and one of these brass cases, as to what would have to be done throating wise. Since the brass case is thinner your slug diameter would be larger (I suppose) so throating would have to be a bit different I'm thinking.

After you shot it you'd have to take the next day off work to recover. Ole Gregg must be made from stern stuff!

...........Buckshot

[Greg5278]

I may be tough, but still am 6'0" and 156# soaking wet. Recoil in my 7# JC Higgins pump gun was Brutal. I had to put a mercury recoil reducer in the stock, just to make it shootable. You would get an instant headache from more than 2 rounds. the load was 615 grains at 1555FPS loaded with IMR 4759. Greg S

[Oldfeller]

Strange thoughts occur to all of us at one time or another.

I have a repeated thought about if you had an old .410 shotgun and a properly designed "tap through" microgroove rifling broach for it (a long pilot and a long post-rifling follower -- install it from breach end and just tap it on through with a soft brass hammer) you could micro-groove rifle just about any .410 single shot that didn't have a real thin barrel (you'd have to ream away the swaged choke before doing this of course).

Now take a virgin never folded 3" long long brass based hull and some nice long heavy .416" bullets and some W820 pull-down powder and make up a nice low pressure shot-gunnish type load. Or you could even use a bunch of slower powder (but it would be messy to shoot).

===================================

The shades of the mid 1800's British BP & early cordite Safari Express rifle cartridges walk the face of the earth again ......

===================================

Of course, if we had something like that .410 rifling broach built up and we passed it around among the group somebody would wind up getting overly enthusiastic with it and blow up an old shotgun on themselves and it would become a bunch of trouble for everybody.

So I put the idea away again.

Then I see some of these $200 5 shot Saga .410 shotguns based on an AK action -- and the thought comes back again ..... why doesn't somebody make a rifled barrel for those things? Why doesn't Saga?

If they did you could ....

Some thoughts just keep coming back.

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Kelly,

Would that button turn itself? I often wondered about that, would love to see how they do a button rifled barrel. I do know talking to the barrel makers that those buttons cost alot to have made.

Joe

[Jumptrap]

Kelly,

Would that button turn itself? I often wondered about that, would love to see how they do a button rifled barrel. I do know talking to the barrel makers that those buttons cost alot to have made.

Joe

Joe,

You need to drive over to Douglas barrels and take a tour one day. I've been there before and watched them make a few barrels, even watched the guy working on buttons.....he is in a seperate 'clean' room and hand cuts the buttons like a jeweler...by hand under a magnifier.

Yes, the button turns itself and it is PULLED through the barrel in a vise looking affair with a hydraulic cylinder. One pass and it's done.

[Bman]

Buckshot, cool photos and I like that idea. Actually going to a 16 or 20 ga even would give a better BC and sectional density. I was planning on keeping the velocity around 1200 fps or so to limit should dislocation some. :grin: Personally I do not see 'needing' anything like a 12 bore rifle or a .62-12ga but every so often the really big bore express sighted bolt gun pops up in the old noggin.

I have a good while to ponder though I'm back in college and will be doing the starving student thing for at least one more year. My original thought was something like a scaled up 454-424 pushed by what ever a case full of 777 would do. Pressure limits permitting. Also I expected to cut the cases down to what ever OAL would feed correctly.

Anyway didn't mean to hijack anything.
Greg I did read somewhere that being slim helped with handling heavy recoil. Your lighter mass will move with the recoil sooner than my 210 lbs. So you slow the rifle less during the recoil impulse. I don't know how much something that theoretical works in real life.

[Oldfeller]

You guys are talking buttons and I'm talking a tap broach. Same effect, except the tap broach has a series of sharp cutting edges (increasing) off a pilot diameter that engages the bare bore. You have a long rifled non-cutting follower to support the cutter as it exits as well.

As soon as the cutting section engages, they start rotating just like a tap or a button, but a bit of skid at the very first engagement with a micro-groove broach is possible. I'd throat it after rifling so as to cover any skid area with the bullet supporting .416" throat area.

Building the rifling broach isn't the project stopper, it is what folks would wind up doing with up to 3" of powder space that worries me.

Plus it would kick like **** (again).

Still, the thought keeps coming back to me every time I see a nifty .410 over and under shotgun or a semi-auto .410 shotgun.

Oldfeller

[Blackwater]

Buckshot and Oldfeller, y'all ain't right! I know! I've had the same thoughts, and I KNOW that I'M not right, so .... welcome to the club. I've got a neat little 32 ga. SxS with side hammers that keeps BEGGING me to rifle the left barrel. It has no choke at all, and at 12 yds. a quail, dove, or maybe even a squirrel could be unscathed even if centered properly. Half an ounce of #8's in a cylinder bore just doesn't cut it for anything but snakes at 6 ft. or so.

Problem is, I just LOVE this little gun! It comes up better than anything I've ever held in my sweaty little hands, and those long 29 5/8" barrels just LOOK so darn NEAT, and swing just like a good gun should, too. I'm plagued. Seems like I'm always falling into projects like this. It's like being in love with a knockout blonde, who has an IQ of about 40!

If I could rifle those .50 cal/32 ga. barrels, I'd have the neatest little swamp hog gun a man could ever imagine. Probably wouldn't bound off deer, either. I think many of the .50 cal. ML'er projectiles, from RB's to R.E.A.L.'s to Maxis to Minies may work, and I'm sure one of them would prove out by enlarging the cavity if necessary. At least the moulds would be cheap and plentiful IF I could ever get the darn thing rifled.

I have the Dillin book "The Kentucky Rifle" from the NRA classics library, and it's got some pics of some of the original rifling setups the old timers used way back when, and it looks to me like making up one of those and using a single point adjustable cutter is the best way to go. Should be reasonably adaptable to different calibers, too. With all the old shotgun barrels laying around just crying to be used again, instead of rusting away, something like this COULD cause REAL problems!

I always envisioned using BP only in my little, light 32 ga. SxS. It's a cheapie Euro import from somewhere along the line. Case hardened receiver, and some cheap, rather crude hand engraving, but it's got double crossbolt lockup and seems to be sturdy enough. Made by Dumoulin, but it's obviously NOT one of their top drawer models by ANY means. That slender little receiver reminds you of Dolly Parton's waist, and a couple of big lead slugs could be reminiscent of .... uh .... her "other assets." Real "lady" of a gun!

I wish you guys would QUIT feeding this probably painful obsession of mine! Y'all ain't RIGHT!

So now that THAT's established, what do you think about the old timers' way of rifling these things? If made from the getgo to cover different diameters, I think it'd offer some real, if PAINFUL sometimes, possibilities.

And Jump, NO! You CANNOT take that lil' 32 ga. out on a date! Down boy! Down I say! DOWN!!!

[lar45]

I think a 50 BMG case would be the place to start. I have some with the rim turned off and another one soldered on, then turned down to have a 12 ga rim. they fit a 12 ga chamber. I'm planning on anealling them and fire forming with COW to iron out the cases. I can then cut them back to length and have a real strong case. I've soldered a bushing in the primer pocket and then reamed out for a 209 shotgun primer. I'm planning on putting a rifled barrel on my H&A falling block sometime. I have a Savage takeoff and a Shaw blank to work with. I have an old stock partially inletted for the action, but it's been sitting on the shelf for awhile now.

7# is way light.
My 470 is just over 9# and seems about right for a 500 @ 2150. My middle finger on the right hand takes a beating from the trigger gaurd. I've picked up a finger recoil pad from Brownells, but haven't tried it yet.

You'll probably end up hurting yourself with that ol 32ga double. You should send it to me for safe keeping and think about other things for awhile.;)
If the barrels are thick enough, I'd say go for it. I like the idea of a broach to do the existing barrel. Maybe something like a cutter/button? Make it take a small cut, then iron the rest out. Lube the Sh&t out of the barrel and pull through with a hydralic ram or something? Or maybe see about sending it to Bauska barrels and see if they could run a 50 cal button through it? They used to charge $50 for a rifled blank. It's $100 now. So if they could put your double barrels in their fixture and pull a button through??? Maybe it would be cheap?? It might disturb the solder joints on the rib and stuff? So you'd have to be willing to have it put back together should that happen.

But there are alot of ifs in all of that, so you really should sell it to me and start thinking about a 17 cal cast gun on a 25 acp case to shoot those Pammy pellets out of.

[Buckshot]

.............Okay, so ain't none of us very rich, and as Blackwater has so clarvoiantly stated, we air a bit 'tetched' how about this idear? You take Granpaw's ole Farly's grain and feed hardware store bought SS break open 12 guage as a platform.

Getchersef a 50 or 54 cal ml'er b'rrl and turn that rascal down a bit and solder thet dude inside the scattergun barrel. Then you get summa them Mag-Tech 32, 28, or 24 guage 2.5" long shotshells. Whutever suits. Bore yor'sef a kinda straight taper chamber inta the ba'rl with a bit of a straight piece for a neck. Leave the same setup in place and bore yor'sef a size die from a bit'a truck axle. Thread'er up ta 1.5x12 fer a Rockchucker with the adapter out.

Now if ya wuz'ta use wunna them sa-bow shootin' kinda inline ba'rls yu'd have the twist to far awf a big ole hunka lead and really hurt yur'sef? Keen, eh?

Give it to your mother in law. "Here Ethel, shoot this", heh, heh. [smilie=s:

..............Buckshot

[Greg5278]

Hey guys, the rifled barrel SxS seems like a good idea. I don't think they could be button rifled. The pressure is too great on the button, and the steel would probably split. Pacnor barrels told me that they have to start with 1.500" stock for their button rifled 12 gauge barrels. An existing barrel can be cut rifled, but the muzzle needs to be cut off. The cutter tends to chatter near the muzzle, and flares slightly. Bill Moody might be able to cut rifle one for you. His tooling cuts well, but tyhe finish leaves something to be desired. He normally cuts 11L17 steel for Muzzleloaders. I had him cut the 4140R material, and the grooves were a little rough. Each cutter head needs to be set up for a different material, for the best finish. Greg

[Oldfeller]

Buckshot, what OD size are .35 caliber 18" barrel liners? Numrich sells them, 45 caliber barrel liners too. Memory places the cost around $22.

Take one of such, machine up a support bushing for the front end that matched the bore diameter of your shotgun then sweat it to the front of the tube and then sweat a steel "shotgun shell" shaped bushing to the back end of the tube. Once done, clean up the surfaces and chamber the removeable insert to your favorite "long for the caliber" straight case.

Now the only trick is to figure out how to transfer the shotgun ejector motion to the sub-caliber case.

.410 shotguns are hell for strong in the chamber area, and they get real thin out towards the end only on the older 1960's type shotguns.

The modern .410s are made of better steel and are "lawyer thick" at the muzzle now-a-days. I was eyeballing me a Rossi kiddy .410 shotgun just the other day ..... lots of meat even on that one.

You know I have me an ongoing weakness for a nice little light carry rifle .... one that was a hidden sleeper British Express Rifle wouldn't be too shabby to me either. Stick a little pistol or shotgun scope up on it and go to town.

Oldfeller

[Greg5278]

Well, Ihope the molds will fill my need for some good shooting slugs. They are of limited use in standard 12 gauge rifled barrels, because they are oversize.
I have a sizing die, but can only siz them so far for other guns. I have sized some down as far as .010" and not noticed any loss of accuracy. The bullets are ugly, and some lead is sheared from the bands, but they still seem to shoot well.

I think the accuracy question can only be answered in a test involving a bolt gun, weighing 14-20#. The recoil is just too much for accurate shooting from a normal gun and a bench rest. I have designed the gun with a heavy wall Octagonal barrel, and used a more dense wood for the stock. The wood is Quilted Sapele and almost double the density of Walnut. I also gave the stock less drop, and made the butt larger.

Assuming you can control the gun, is is sufficient for all game in the USA. I thin k it would do fine on a big bear with a heat treated slug. The slugs can also be cast of Zinc which cuts the weight to about 64% of the WW+2% Tin
slug. It penetrates 3/8 1018 plate at 50 yards, and recoil is reduced. The zinc slugs do not expand, and may be an option for less recoil, but may sacrifice penetration.
Greg S

[Oldfeller]

Don't use zinc -- it is trace poisonous to all lead alloys causing total failure over time. You can't get it off your equipment and out of your pot without major sandblasting, etc.

If you want a bullet that is 66% the weight of a lead bullet cast it out of 95/5 bar solder (readily available from a plumbing supply house or Lowes). It costs about like linotype, but is much lighter in weight.

It also doesn't poison your pot. Casts real good too.

Oldfeller

[drinks]

2 suggestions;
Savage makes a .729 bolt action something, not sure what might be done with it, but it seems to be big enough to satisfy all but the 4 bore faddists.
The other suggestion is to contact Dan Pederson , Classic Barrel and Gun Works, Prescott, AZ.
cutrifle.com
He rebores and cut rifles barrels on a custom basis.
Might be able to make some of your wilder fantasies come true, with enough money, of course!

[Bman]

Drinks that Savage bolt gun was the platform I have had my eye on.

Haven't held or even seen one. I wonder what the good folks at Savage would say if I called and asked them about it??

If I find out will post....
B

[Blackwater]

LAR45, I keep wanting to do SOMETHING with that cuddly little 32. Just can't make up my mind which way I want to go. Would make a neat scattergun for squirrel with choke tubes, and Comp-N-Choke's just down the road in neighboring Screven Co. I'm actually half scared to approach him on the matter, actually. Keep thinking doing the tube thing, with one pair of tubes being rifled, would give me Paradox rifling, and enough accuracy, probably, for anything I'd use it for, plus I'd still have it useful as a shotgun to boot. But there's just SOMETHING about having a bona-fide "Double Rifle" in .50 cal. that .... well, just kinda' appeals to me. I think it's evident that a bunch of you here understand WAY better than we all WISH we did! :veryconfu :redneck: :bigsmyl2: