So.....What happens to the dacron?

[milrifle]

I have never found any trace of Dacron filler downrange. I have a bullet trap and while the bullets themselves turn to dust, I find gas checks in the trap and there's no sign of any burnt or melted Dacron on them. So what happens to it? Is it consumed? Vaporized? Is it laying on the ground a few yards downrange and I've just not noticed it? Or what?

[btroj]

It is blown out and dissipates into lots of little Dacron fluffs floating on the wind. I have found bits here and there and it is never melted in any way.

[runfiverun]

it can't handle the rpm's and just blows itself up on exit.

[btroj]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/atomic.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[DrCaveman]

I loaded some *goofy* slow 38 special rounds with imr 4227 and a 200 grain round nose. I think around 300 fps was the slowest it got from my snubbie. I decided that some filler was in order, just to be "safe"

The intact dacron bits floating away after each shot were quite a surprise. There was way more dacron in the air than smoke. And it is so light, it was swept by the wind within inches of leaving my barrel.

Also used it in my 30-30 a bit, and usually spotted a bit drifting away from the muzzle if i kept my eyes open through the shot like im supposed to. Those were fairly high pressure loads too, at least 25 kpsi

Crazy thing is how it runs from a bic lighter like a scared puppy. Basically shrinks and melts back into a plastic solid

[geargnasher]

Anyone still thinks that hot gas melts the bullet bases? Anyone? News flash, same thing happens with twisted paper jacket tails, usually they aren't even discolored.

Gear

[DrCaveman]

Anyone still thinks that hot gas melts the bullet bases? Anyone? News flash, same thing happens with twisted paper jacket tails, usually they aren't even discolored.

Gear

So im probably talking about **** that has already been covered, debated, and led to general animosity, but here goes

Where is all that combustion energy going? Is it as simple as the fact you can swipe your hand across a propane torch flame without getting burned... I can tap the top of my woodstove which is registering 700* and not get a blister...

The 1-3 milliseconds of INTENSE heat during powder combustion is insufficient to even melt the dacron? Of course, the required calories to melt a .452" disk of lead are far greater...

Keith mentioned several times how the velocity limitation of powders like Bullseye and Unique were due to the intense heat generated by heavy loads causing poor accuracy, likely because of base deformation... Melting? I doubt it. But something close to melting maybe

Gear, im with you, no question, but the physics and chemistry intrigue me. Always looking for a more efficient load, and questions like this are pertinent. I am interested in Nobade's use of reactive fillers as a sidebar

[Green Lizzard]

i have fired thousands of dacron filled cases since the 70s without ever seeing any exit the muzzle, last week i fired a dud(no powder) and found a glob of black melted dacron still in the case mouth, those primers are hot. i do not think it melts on firing a normal load, i suspect if you used more of it than you should or a light enough load you might see some gun snow from the muzzle.

[btroj]

Time. It takes time for the stuff to melt. We can find bullet lube on a bullet after firing and it melts at a lower temp than Dacron. We find unburned powder in the bore at times too, how can that happen?

Shoot a 45-70 with a 400 to 420 gr cast bullet with 22 to 24 gr of 2400 and a healthy amount of Dacron. You WILL see a snowfall of Dacron leave the muzzle.

I have found bits of that Dacron and it was not melted. Told me I used too much too.

[geargnasher]

Also consider that there's heat, but not much oxygen to react with the Dacron. Smokeless powder is more or less a stoichiometric blend of fuel and oxidizer. Still, my take on it is like Brad said, not enough time exposure. The old passing the hand over the flame quickly to not get burned analogy.

Gear

[303Guy]

Yup. Time exposure and heat. Load it up with a small charge of fast powder under a fair boolit weight in a rifle and it will melt. Sometimes into neat round beads and sometimes a bit irregular. I often find them with light test loads into my test tube where I can recover patch fragments and melted or not Dacron. I even got cotton wool to burn. I have also found unmelted Dacron fluff. Paper never scorches. The only boolit melting that occurs is from gas cutting down the length of the boolit, never its base.

[JWFilips]

I have developed this theory based on whether the rifling has a RH or LH twist. If it is a Right hand twist, the dacron is spun open into individual fibers and is dispersed in the air upon leaving the barrel….If it is a Left hand twist, the dacron will tighten up before being expelled from the barrel….in theory one could find it on the ground.
Now, if the above examples are fired south of the equator….. it would be the reverse.
So wadaya think?
:bigsmyl2:

[RobS]

I have developed this theory based on whether the rifling has a RH or LH twist. If it is a Right hand twist, the dacron is spun open into individual fibers and is dispersed in the air upon leaving the barrel….If it is a Left hand twist, the dacron will tighten up before being expelled from the barrel….in theory one could find it on the ground.
Now, if the above examples are fired south of the equator….. it would be the reverse.
So wadaya think?
:bigsmyl2:

sounds like something in a toilet bowl. :p

[geargnasher]

ROFLMAO!!!!

Thanks guys, I needed a laugh really badly right about now!

Gear

[btroj]

That is why I only buy right handed dacron.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Dunno. i DO know that if you forget you stuffed your Stars & Stripes newspaper up the breach of your tank's 105mm guntube and for get it's there, it makes confetti when the first round pushes it out of the barrel.

dale in Louisiana

[1Shirt]

IMO, if you are finding any Dacron down range, you are most likely using to much Dacron for fill!
1Shirt!

[44man]

Keith was correct about the fast powders but he never recognized the instant pressure and slump, he had the idea the base was deformed or melted. Deformed-YES but not melted, he was skidding rifling too. Soft lead!
I use Dacron in my 45-70 revolver and do find some in front of the bench, never burned. HD Poly wads and paper wads from a BPCR do not burn either. I put a newspaper wad over the flash hole and some blacken but I can still read the print, none are consumed. I have to pick them out of the brass.
If you think a boolit base will melt you live too close to the sun! :holysheep

[44man]

IMO, if you are finding any Dacron down range, you are most likely using to much Dacron for fill!
1Shirt!
Naw, you bought the wrong twist! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[aspangler]

As a side note, Wasp nests will burn when lighted with a match but won't even scorch when used as a wad over a charge of black powder.

[bedbugbilly]

So . . . Jim . . . what happens if you load the dacron in upside down or backwards? Especially south of the equator? :-)

[Blanco]

I use ambidextrous Dacron

[Echo]

I have developed this theory based on whether the rifling has a RH or LH twist. If it is a Right hand twist, the dacron is spun open into individual fibers and is dispersed in the air upon leaving the barrel….If it is a Left hand twist, the dacron will tighten up before being expelled from the barrel….in theory one could find it on the ground.
Now, if the above examples are fired south of the equator….. it would be the reverse.
So wadaya think?
:bigsmyl2:
Right On! The Coriolis Effect will cause the reversal...

[fouronesix]

So . . . Jim . . . what happens if you load the dacron in upside down or backwards? Especially south of the equator? :-)

Actually it comes out of the bore in a counter twist direction :)

I think in response to the OP, the answer about what happens to a low density dacron filler that is fired has to do with basic "specific heat" of the reaction during firing. While the absolute heat of the burning powder is very high, the extremely short duration of the event means that the specific heat of the event is likewise extremely low. So the dacron is simply blown/shredded out the bore. I've never seen any identifiable dacron residue left in a bore after firing and have, as others have noted, commonly seen the cloud of shreds blown out. Also, if you shoot over fresh snow on a calm day, you can usually find pieces of shredded dacron a few feet/yards out in front of the muzzle.

Conversely, if the firing event is relatively long as with some types of "squib" loads, the specific heat will be much higher and the dacron can burn/melt, resulting in a glob of melted dacron. :)

[milrifle]

I'm gonna start looking to see if I can see it floating around in the air after I fire. I certainly see some smoke, but never noticed if there were bits of Dacron in it. I kinda expected that one could find the whole tuft a few yards ahead of the bench, but I have never seen it. Never looked REAL hard, but I have kinda looked at the ground as I was walking downrange and never seen any. But then I didn't have a good idea how far it would go. Just speculation. And it's not real important. Just something I've wondered about.

[44man]

So . . . Jim . . . what happens if you load the dacron in upside down or backwards? Especially south of the equator? :-)
South does not matter. The problem is when you live at or close to the equator. Spin is confused! Some will try to go one way but the rest resists that.

[fouronesix]

I'm gonna start looking to see if I can see it floating around in the air after I fire. I certainly see some smoke, but never noticed if there were bits of Dacron in it. I kinda expected that one could find the whole tuft a few yards ahead of the bench, but I have never seen it. Never looked REAL hard, but I have kinda looked at the ground as I was walking downrange and never seen any. But then I didn't have a good idea how far it would go. Just speculation. And it's not real important. Just something I've wondered about.

Try letting someone else shoot. Maybe stand behind and slightly to the side and watch the smoke and debris cloud out in front of the muzzle. Of course lighting and wind conditions will determine how well it may show.

[JeffG]

I'm gonna start looking to see if I can see it floating around in the air after I fire. I certainly see some smoke, but never noticed if there were bits of Dacron in it. I kinda expected that one could find the whole tuft a few yards ahead of the bench, but I have never seen it. Never looked REAL hard, but I have kinda looked at the ground as I was walking downrange and never seen any. But then I didn't have a good idea how far it would go. Just speculation. And it's not real important. Just something I've wondered about.

Like fouronesix says, generally sight the rifle, then back you head up and place your gaze near the muzzle and not down range, but don't exactly focus on anything. You are seeing everything but focusing on nothing. Same thing spotting patches shooting round ball.

[JWFilips]

Of course one "could" adjust their sights to see the puff of dacron...not really sure if it is as much fun as seeing the bull hit at 100 yds...but it could just answer the question!;)

[N4AUD]

I use ambidextrous Dacron

I thought that was for guns with two barrels.

[runfiverun]

the powder don't burn all that hot, if it did it would keep on softening the brass and we wouldn't have to anneal it.
I'd be pretty dang sure that the flame temp of powder [even under pressure] isn't over 400-f.

[MUSTANG]

As a side note, Wasp nests will burn when lighted with a match but won't even scorch when used as a wad over a charge of black powder.

Is that with or without Wasps & eggs in the nest when using as a black powder wad? Inquiring minds want to know.

[btroj]

With wasps. That is the secret ingredient in CCI Stingers......

[swheeler]

the powder don't burn all that hot, if it did it would keep on softening the brass and we wouldn't have to anneal it.
I'd be pretty dang sure that the flame temp of powder [even under pressure] isn't over 400-f.

Lamar that doesn't sound right?? could have sworn I've read about 1200*F?


Edit: I think that was only for the newest St Marks Winchester Ball powders, you know "New Lower Flame Temperature" advertisements of not that many decades ago, like cutting the flame temperature in half or thirds over the old IMR single based stuff. If you put a 2 infront of your 400 you may be in the ball park at PMAX

[fouronesix]

the powder don't burn all that hot, if it did it would keep on softening the brass and we wouldn't have to anneal it.
I'd be pretty dang sure that the flame temp of powder [even under pressure] isn't over 400-f.

It's well over 400- way hotter! It's the Specific Heat that counts during a short duration event as in a firearm.

[coffeeguy]

The Dacron gets blown into a parallel universe...Where powder and lead supplies never run low. Paradise indeed.

With regard to the claims of a bullet base melting during firing, it's not so much the heat generated by the powder as it is the pressure. You can demonstrate the principle with a couple of ice cubes by squeezing them together HARD in your hand for several seconds. Their temperature doesn't change but because of the pressure they'll partially melt and fuse together, then the water re-freezes when you release the pressure. Anyway, no, the bullet base doesn't really melt but it is softened by the heat and pressure. Also, the friction produces heat as well, as anyone who has touched a hot drill bit (or gun barrel) knows.

But the Dacron? Cool stuff indeed.

[nanuk]

there has to be temperature AND time to add the calories to the product to reach its flame temperature.

take a paper bag, fill it with water and set it on a bed of coals.
the bag will burn down to the top of the water and no further.
the water boils, keeping the paper touching it cool enough it will not ignite.

dacron is probably the same way.
not enough heat/time to read the flame point.

now, replace the shot/wad in a 12ga, jam the barrel into a LONG pipe so it fits tight, making a super long barrel, and fire it off... you'll probably find the dacron burned as some point, having long enough time to reach the flame point.

[fouronesix]

The temps that have been measured for burning smokeless powder range from about 2700 F to 3800 F depending on type of powder and confinement. The single base powders usually burn at lower temperatures in that range and the double base powders usually burn at the higher ranges. In the chamber and bore of a firearm, the temperature of the plasma is very high but the specific heat of the burning plasma is very low. The time of exposure between the plasma and the more dense materials like brass, bullet base or even wads/fillers is very short. So no melting or burning of those materials.

BTW, the ignition temperature for most smokeless is about 600 F.

[MBTcustom]

Hey fellers, check this out. I found it interesting. It deals with jacketed bullets, but it's still pretty cool (pun intended) LOL!
http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/CBI/Resources/Documents/IRTechnology.pdf

[Deadpool]

I think it has to do with the stoichiometry of the fuel+oxidizer. The dacron acts as a buffer when the manufacturing ratio isn't exactly perfect, providing a little extra fuel in case there is too much oxidizer, but will not react if there isn't enough oxidizer. It's like measuring 'zero', the perfect balance. Sure you can get as close as you can measure to zero, but it will never be exactly zero. Measuring zero is like measuring infinity in this way. If the powder manufacturer has "acceptable tolerances" and you find that it isn't worthy of use for competition powder, then you're getting the point of this. If the manufacturer put slightly too much fuel and not enough oxidizer, it won't help either. But it helps on one half of that equation anyway. This is my theory, I guess!

Another way to look at it might be like making a DC rectifier circuit with a bridge and capacitor. No matter how big a cap you use, you still have a waveform riding the offset potential. The 'dacron' flattens one side of the bias.

[btroj]

Oxidizer isn't required for melting. We are discussing the melting of Dacron, not the burning of it.

The hand thru a flame example is the best. Not enough time for the Dacron to melt.

Wanna see where it goes? Load a 45-70 with a light charge and too much Dacron and you see plenty of it floating around.

[44man]

Very interesting pictures, looks like the SR 71. Strange to see the very tip that hot.

[Bigslug]

The purpose of the Dacron is to act as a mild compressor to the powder right? The powder burn starts at the back of the stack and moves forward - the last of the powder to burn will be that which is closest to the Dacron. In a perfect load scenario, the powder will finish burning just before the bullet clears the muzzle. So. . .my theory:

In heavy loads, the foreward portion of the powder stack is actually insulating the Dacron until the very final bit of combustion.

In mouse fart loads with fast powder, the same applies but the time duration of the burn is even less.

[35remington]

The recovered Dacron, when it can be found, varies in appearance depending upon the load used. Moderate pressure loads using slower powders show the fibers being broken in to shorter lengths and the fibers have a gray appearance. High pressure loads, especially with fast powders like Unique may have a fused or melted spot that may also approximate or equal the area of Dacron in contact with the base of the bullet.

In other words it's melted into a disk the size of the base of the bullet. When used according to most recommendations with slower powders and moderate pressures the first observation applies and there's the scorched Dacron "smell." It's hard to find any appreciable quantity when going about one's business because most loads use very little. If one is interested in doing so put somewhat more in the case that you would otherwise and shoot a number of shots to increase the odds of finding it. Or, use it in a larger case to increase the amount used.

Its a a lot harder to find Dacron fired from a 25-20 than a 35 Whelen.

I'd call Dacron much more a "positioner" than a "compressor" of powder. It acts more like a barrier to movement and in my observation exerts little compressive force on the powder. Slow powder moderate loads see the powder granules survive intact to be thrown into the base of the bullet on primer ignition even without Dacron being present.....so they do insulate the Dacron, at least until the time they are consumed. This is no great revelation and is pretty much as you'd expect.

[Pilgrim]

Re: "out of whack powders"...I don't think that happens. The chemistry is essentially fixed by the physical laws, so the ratios of the components will always be the same. That is the reason why powders are nearly identical batch to batch. The different burn rates are determined by the coatings and I suspect the operator running the machine. If he/she lets the machine doing the coating run a bit longer or shorter that will effect the burn rate of that lot of powder hence the lot to lot variations we hear about. That is also how slow powders are made from faster powders. Sure there is double base vs. single base and manufacturing differences but any powder from any specific manufacturing process is essentially identical except for the coatings.

R5R - Smokeless powder burns hot. Real hot. It is the combination of flame temperature and gas velocity that erodes the rifling in front of the chamber. Keep your barrel cool, and the steel will be more resistant to erosion. Machine gun barrels go away faster than rifle barrels for that reason. As far as how long the powder burns, I have read many times that complete powder combustion occurs within the first few inches ahead of the chamber.

FWIW...Pilgrim

[303Guy]

In mouse fart loads with fast powder, the same applies but the time duration of the burn is even less.It's with mouse fart loads that I recover melted beads of Dacron. That's using AS30N (Clays) 4.4gr under a 168gr boolit with about 3/4gr Dacron in a full length 303Brit.

[tazman]

Back in the day when I was loading cast for my Marlin 45-70 using cast, I found a bag of real cotton balls to use instead of Dacron. I always found the remains of the balls(sometimes intact) about 7 yards from the muzzle. I was loading 3031 under 350 grain roundnose boolits looking for a more or less standard load that could also be used in a trapdoor.

[milrifle]

Well Guys, I saw it today. My wife and I shot 30-30's this afternoon. When she was shooting, I could see what looked like individual fibers floating around in the sunlight. I had expected to see a tuft, but when I began to look for fibers, I could see them.

[RED333]

Dacron turns into fairy dust under the very high pressure and heat of the round being fired.
Catch it on old panty hose and rub the dust on your sights and improve your shooting.
Now I have let the cat out if the bag and we can all move on.

[44man]

Very true about powders, coatings and shape controls burn rates, many powders are the exact same formulation whether single or double base. Fast powders have a larger affect on a boolit then slow ones because of a faster pressure rise even though final peak is lower.
I don't exactly buy that slow powders are gone in an inch or so. We have shot plugs of powder out the muzzle to burn in the grass. I feel even after peak, slow powder can continue to burn and add to velocity, sustained push instead of one bang. I find 3031 in the bore and bench from a 10" revolver in 45-70 but lengthen the barrel and it will all burn. Super good powder from the rifle but velocity from a 10" barrel is very low.
I understand the expansion ratio stuff but once powder is gone, there is no more gas generated. Even a too long barrel in a .22 rim fire shoots slower then a short one. A big magnum rifle with a lot of powder benefits from barrel length. It can mean only one thing, powder is adding gas well down the bore. A .300 with an 18" or 20" barrel is just a 30-06 with more recoil from powder added to bullet weight. If 88 gr of 4831 all went off in 2" of the .300 Weatherby, you have a bomb.

[BAGTIC]

It is blown out and dissipates into lots of little Dacron fluffs floating on the wind. I have found bits here and there and it is never melted in any way.


How can that be when everyone knows that combustion gases are hot enough to melt lead.

[BAGTIC]

the powder don't burn all that hot, if it did it would keep on softening the brass and we wouldn't have to anneal it.
I'd be pretty dang sure that the flame temp of powder [even under pressure] isn't over 400-f.


Temperatures are considerably higher than that. http://e-ballistics.com/ebook/propellants-energy.htm

[44man]

Powder gas temps are over steel melting temps but it is TIME of exposure.
Some powders like Lil'Gun have a different coating or very little to none at all so they make more heat then pressures. Seems they reduced oxygen generation so reduced the coating for ignition and a slower pressure rise. I don't know what they did but the powder burns two to three times hotter. Maybe they make more oxygen with less to burn. Cutting torch with more oxygen then acetylene.

[runfiverun]

okay,okay I know gas temps are much hotter than the number I quoted.
the brass thing was a leading statement.

sooo how come if you only have to heat brass up to 715-f to anneal it [with no time duration]
why doesn't the much hotter gas temp anneal the brass case?
it is capable of eroding a steel pipe.

[btroj]

The brass never gets that hot. The much hotter gasses never have the time to transfer the heat to the brass.
It really is like passing your hand thru a flame. The flame is well over the temp required to burn you but you don't give the flame time to transfer enough heat to the skin to start charring your flesh. Go slower and see what happens.

It is all about time

[swheeler]

okay,okay I know gas temps are much hotter than the number I quoted.
the brass thing was a leading statement.

sooo how come if you only have to heat brass up to 715-f to anneal it [with no time duration]
why doesn't the much hotter gas temp anneal the brass case?
it is capable of eroding a steel pipe.


Brad got it. BUT I DO LIKE YOUR IDEA OF SELF ANNEALING BRASS!:groner:

[swheeler]

But your 7x57AI may come closer to annealing the necks than your standard 7x57, not close enough though. P Otto used his 40* shoulder to move the flame point inside the case neck instead of pointing it at the leade, another one of the claims made as advantage, less throat erosion.

[44man]

I have caught many cases from guns. Yes they are hot but not hot enough to take skin off let alone hot enough to anneal brass. Put a few twigs in your wood burning stove and cook a stew. You need more fuel. it takes a long time for the stove to heat up. Powder burn is like a sheet of newspaper in your stove.

[MUSTANG]

I have caught many cases from guns. Yes they are hot but not hot enough to take skin off let alone hot enough to anneal brass. Put a few twigs in your wood burning stove and cook a stew. You need more fuel. it takes a long time for the stove to heat up. Powder burn is like a sheet of newspaper in your stove.

Slight disagreement, over the years on a couple of occasions I have caught both 5.56 and 7.62 brass down the collar from shooters on the line, resulting in 2nd degree skin burns on the neck. Not hot enough to do serious damage, but enough to leave a mark. It's all about the time is the key: how long the boolit & Dacron is in the barrel, and how long the brass is on the skin, and how tender the material exposed to the heat is.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=MUSTANG;3128624]Slight disagreement, over the years on a couple of occasions I have caught both 5.56 and 7.62 brass down the collar from shooters on the line, resulting in 2nd degree skin burns on the neck. Not hot enough to do serious damage, but enough to leave a mark.QUOTE


Firing BREN light machineguns on a packed-clay firing point, I received a bad burn from an ejected .303 case.

The BREN ejects straight sown, and on the hard surface the cases bounced all over.

I was wearing a long-sleeved uniform shirt with the cuffs buttoned, and one case entered the slit above the cuff and wedged against my skin.

It DEFINITELY "left a mark"... a big red welt that took days to go away.

Pretty difficult to maintain concentration on the sights.....!

[milrifle]

In my experience, the temperature of a fired case has a lot to do with how hot the chamber has gotten and how long the cartridge stayed in the chamber before firing. Nowadays, I shoot relatively light loads, so they don't usually get too awfully hot, but the tenth case to come out of a rifle is significantly warmer than the first one, even with the same loads. Also, if you just load a round and fire it, the case is not nearly as hot as when you load a round and then have make adjustments to your glasses or hearing protection or rest, and THEN fire the round.

I never had hot brass down the neck when I was in the Army, but a couple of my left handed buddies did. This was back in the M-16-A1 days. My son is a Marine and is right handed like myself, but he managed to have a piece of brass from an M-4 get against his neck and could not get it out due to the body armor he was wearing at the time. It left what will probably be a permanent scar. It's been 4-5 years and it's still there.

[btroj]

I agree, I think more heat transfer occurs between chamber and brass than powder gases and brass. Let the round sit in the chamber very long and it can get hot even if not fired.

[milrifle]

It would be interesting to know how much of the barrel heat is generated by gasses and how much from friction.

No doubt the gasses get hot though. I've seen the gas tube in an M-16 glow red at night.

[44man]

Sustained fire does heat brass. But we don't do that. Seen rifle barrels glow red. We don't do that either.

[btroj]

I certainly don't sustain fire fast or long enough to get a barrel that hot.

[Jim..47]

If it doesn't burn up with a full charge of powder then why do your loading manuals tell you to back off the charge by xxx if using a filler because of increased pressure. Increased pressure? Well! I guess it must be burning is my thought.

My observation is based on shooting thousands of 45/70 Contender pistol loads! AND reading manuals. :killingpc

[btroj]

It doesn't burn but it DOES effectively reduce case capacity which raises pressure.

In a different thread Runfiverun mentioned a bit of Dacron is similar to an extra .5 gr of powder. My scant testing shows that to be pretty true velocity wise.

[cbrick]

It would be interesting to know how much of the barrel heat is generated by gasses and how much from friction.

No doubt the gasses get hot though. I've seen the gas tube in an M-16 glow red at night.

I've seen the barrel of an M-14 glow red at night when shooting blanks. No bullet, no friction. Heat from burning gas only.

Rick

[JSnover]

It's a matter of combustion and pressure. If you increase one you increase the other.

[bedbugbilly]

Hmmm . . . . I don't know how hot the brass really gets but I do know when my shooting buddy had an ejected .380 go down the front of her blouse and get hung up along the way once in the blouse, it made her jump for a few minutes . . . being a gentleman, I offered to assist her with the removal of the spent casing but she respectfully declined . . . . :-)