Need help keep stupid law from passing NY to ban rough cut lumber

[Outer Rondacker]

They want to ban the use of rough cut lumber in NY state. This is going to put a lot of people out of work. Drive building cost way up. We need your help. Please just one email It takes 60 seconds to drop in some info and hit send. Thanks for your help keeping the power to the people.

http://capwiz.com/nyfb/issues/alert/?alertid=64043546&type=CU&show_alert=1

[dakotashooter2]

I think that a "blanket" ban is probably out of line, but a ban for certain uses may be justifyable. I suspect the insurance agencies, building officials and fire inspectors are probably driving this. One of the problems is that many of the people who utilize such a product because it is cheaper may not have the knowledge necessary to determine if those materials are structurally sufficient for the job they are doing since there may not be any design standards available for it.. Eg. just because a rough cut 2x6 is dimensionally larger than a dimensional 2x6 that doesn't make it stronger. It may not be structurally sound to substitute one for the other. That's where inspection on the code enforcement end runs into trouble.We are expected to inspect a job with lumber that has no data readily available vs a product that does and expected to make engineering decisions (not our job) on a product that likely has more variance in quality than dimensional lumber. Now if this product is used in a barn or shed where failure is unlikely to result in any human casualty it's not as big a deal but if a failure occurs in some type of occupied structure the trouble starts.

[waksupi]

Message sent. I have first hand experience with the strength of native lumber. Beats the hell out of the planed stuff, plus the price beats it considerably.

[Outer Rondacker]

Thank you sir.

[C. Latch]

but a ban for certain uses may be justifyable..

Regulating the building industry is not a legitimate function of government.

[Hardcast416taylor]

We actually HAVE a government?Robert

[RayinNH]

How on earth did this country survive without all these government nannies coming along. As a kid I had a BB gun and ran with scissors, I'm still here.

[gds45]

Regulating the building industry is not a legitimate function of government.
I agree. Message sent.

[Outer Rondacker]

Hopefully we make a point. Every time I hear a new ban or law its always for the good of the people. Funny thing is I never once run into one person who wants the new law or ban. It must be all for them cityits.

gds45 thanks for your support.

[firefly1957]

Passed it on to relatives there.

[Duckiller]

dakotashooter where do you get structural data for Home Depot/Lowes 2x4 or 2x6? I have seen lots of rough cut that are clear that are a lot better than commercial wood. The main function of a building inspector is to make sure any improvements are added to the value of the structure so you get to pay more taxes. Plywood is 1/32" thinner than the nominal size. Has your building code been modified to allow this undersized wood? As a registered I think that most building codes based on UBC require structures to be build way above what a engineered design would call for. The exception to this is earthquake loads. The stresses that an earthquake can put on a structure when it happens right under the structure are beyond what you can economically design for. At best you design to keep the building standing until it is evacuated. Rough cut is good.

[Vopie]

You can't spit around here without hitting a mill. Must be the mob boss in Albany figured there's more money to be bled from use up here in the hills.

[Multigunner]

There was a ban on unfinished lumber imported from Canada , is this the law or does it extend that law?

The Canadians got around it by boring a hole in one end to claim it was machined.

Much of the frame of my home is rough cut lumber. When repairing the dry wall in the bathroom I found the studs of one wall were about 3X8 and a friend said the wood appeared to be cypress, I suppose to prevent rotting in case of leaks. The original bathroom plumbing was in the wall rather than running under the floor.

[altheating]

Message sent. Just another way to make sure they get the tax dollars. Someone elected these bozo's. Same thing with the NY ban on Outdoor Wood Furnaces. Can't tax firewood so ban the stove and make you buy fuel oil, then oil companies can send millions of dollars to their cronies in Albany and Washington.

[daniel lawecki]

sent hope this helps

[country gent]

Gosh some of the older farmhouses and structures must really be weak and usafe. Not even rough cut but hand hewn lumber no nails or screws but jointed and wood dowels.

[winchester85]

i own a small mill.

i mill all of my own lumber, and used to sell quite a bit too. there is NO structural degradation from the wood being rough. if it is sound, it is probably stronger than a surfaced 2x. not to mention that there is a 65% greater cross sectional area of a true 2x4 vs a 1.5x3.5 (2x4).

i would bet the large mills are the ones pushing this, small mills typically do not surface their material nor do they have grade stamps. but, a bunch of small mills can sure put the hurt on the big boys. the margins in the wood business are small, large volume is required to make it worthwhile. but, a mom and pop mill can turn out a lot of lumber without having to provide workers comp insurance because they are the business owners. a large mill has major insurance costs, major labor costs, and government regulations for just about every aspect of their business.

[reloader28]

I have a mill too and agree with winchester85. This is 100% about money.

New York has without a doubt some of the dumbest laws on the planet.
My wife runs a water bottling plant and has to deal with the extreme stupidity every day in order to ship water there. You wouldnt believe half the stuff they have to do to pass inspection.

[ascast]

What next ? Like a "codes officer" knows his back side from ....
It would take about 1 hr to write up some guide lines for the "codes officer" to look at, so he could ruin somebodies life with irrefutable proof in hand.
It's all about the money, and always hidden in some "safety".
I called the forester Monday to see about a firewood contract for the summer ($10 full cord). The lawyers have decided that somebody could hurt themselves and the state would be responsible.
I would leave in a heart beat if I could.

consider message sent

[altheating]

Code Officer = collect fees for building permit = add more value to property = pay more taxes!

[MaryB]

Message sent. Parts of my house are over 120 years old and rough cut lumber. Heck some of the floor beams are debarked tree trunks! Stuff is a lot sounder than the junk the big box stores pass off as lumber these days

[Outer Rondacker]

Thank you MaryB. Thank all you guys. I just found out today they want to make a law in NY state that if you build a new house it has sprinkler system in it. Who can afford that. I am looking at building a post and beam log cabin with all open rooms and a loft bedroom size is going to be 28x36. If you are not sitting on the throne or in the tub you would be able to see the other side of the house. Sprinklers really? This state is nuts.

[MtGun44]

Big companies have long known that the easiest way to succeed is to have
the government outlaw your competitors.

Bill

[quilbilly]

I had my own trees (mostly old growth hemlock) milled in rough cut full dimension to build my barn and the found out the codes wouldn't even allow me to do that so when the inspectors left...

[William Yanda]

O R
Could you give us an email address for the code committee, I will write my own letter? Thanks
Bill

[w5pv]

Messge sent

[Outer Rondacker]

They wont give it out. Good luck getting it. You can contact the Manager of Public Affairs, Associate Director
sammerman@nyfb.org and ask for it.

[shooter93]

It's not just the fact that it's rough sawn but also the species. Some are quite weak and not fit for load bearing. That being said we got code enforcement because of unscrupulous builders and customers who don't do their home work. The final bid price is all that matters to them. Then if troubles arise they scream for government intervention to "protect" them. Years ago when they tried to expand code enforcement into the area I lived in one of the Township supervisors listed all the troubles he had with his house and gave it as the reason we needed it. At the time not one thing on his list was covered by the codes. But the builder was low bidder by a very substantial amount from 3 other builders.
Enforcement officers here used to be retired builders but for the last 20 years or so they aren't. They get trained and only understand the "book" and have zero comprehension of building. There is one exception at that's an electrical inspector who is a very sharp guy. Every year you get new codes added and many of them are simply foolish but they do "justify" their jobs and why we still need them.
Sprinklers was defeated here. It's simply not workable. People in rural areas or on a moderate flowing well would have to have huge holding tanks, pumps and a back up generator in order to meet the code. Needless to say that cost is staggering. Top that off with the fact that sprinklers save very few lives. It's smoke detectors that do a tremendous job alerting people and getting them outside....they are life savers....but it should be your choice not the governments. We now have a State wide code (so they say) I was told by an inspector....you should be glad for this. You are an extremely well known as a very reputable builder and this will weed out the fly by nights. I looked at him and said....you've had code enforcement here for years and there are more fly by nights now then there have ever been.

[Denver]

Message sent. It's been quite some time since I looked into it, but if I recall correctly, the building code here required "Association Graded" lumber only to be used for residential construction.

[thxmrgarand]

You people in NY need to either move or take over. First your guns and ammo, and now telling you the lumber used from 1600 to 1930 or thereabouts is no good. I honestly could not stand it, and I don't know how you do so. You would have been better off in the Soviet Union because at least there you could fairly pay off enough of the bureaucracy that you could have done whatever you wanted. Overt corruption would be better than having state government control every aspect of your lives for no good reason but that they can. The toilets you can buy, the light bulbs you can use, the wheelweights on your truck, and virtually every aspect of our lives is regulated more and more to no good end.

I would not be at all surprised if state equipment left by itself had its hoses cut, state restrooms on the highway are vandalized with sulfur or in some other way, and state troopers have young women call their homes and ask if they are there (so their wives can be more interested in their schedules). Government is no one's friend but in NY it's clearly your enemy. Either using the political process or by using resistance you have to either push back against government or it will push you around more and more. Does anyone think that it's only inner city people who can protest and who have something to protest?

[ol skool]

Regulating the building industry is not a legitimate function of government.

Yup, this is between you, your family, your bank and your insurer.

[ascast]

the "code data" has been around for 200 years, just look at the rough cut , heavy timber buildings that are still standing.
Marks Mechanical Handbook, circa 1930 has ALL the data would ever need regarding span, load, knots etc. It was all done a long time ago.
The trick is to get code guys who can read ( at least) and have some background in the trade or industry; NOT somebodies old friend or nephew.
Or better yet, lets just get rid of them.

[shdwlkr]

As others have said it is the big saw mills trying to get rid of the small rough cut mills. I have worked with rough cut lumber a few times and the only difference I ever noticed is with rough cut gloves are a good think and with milled most of the time they are not needed. As to the structural issue if the log was sound so will the boards made from it.

It is amazing how political types that live in the big cities know so much about everything and really understand nothing. Read agenda 21 it all becomes very clear then what is going on and what is coming next.

[starmac]

It is all about money and not at all confined to NY, in fact many if not most states have laws against using lumber without the grade stamp.
The big mills have their own grade stamps, which means exactly nothing in the big picture, except for protecting their market. If a piece of chitty grade stamped lumber fails, no matter how much damage or cost associated with it, all they are responsible for is the cost of that one piece of lumber.
The laws are to protect big (very big) business and that is all. Anybody tat uses even a little amount of lumber, knows how much trouble it is to sort through a bundle to find a somewhat straight and clear board from any lumber yard. As far as rough cut goes, it means nothing, many small mills also have planers, edgers, and kilns, but can't get a grade stamp for any amount of money.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

BTW, NY state was where to the drive for "safety" gas cans originated (from a manufacturer). Look at the garbage we have to work with now with the spread of that deed.

BvT

[jmort]

California enacted the first stupid gas can law. I know in the battle for the most idiotic state there are a number of contenders, but it is hard to out-stupid California.

[jcwit]

Remember when barn had a Hay Loft? Today they have a rafter loft.

[Newtire]

Code Officer = collect fees for building permit = add more value to property = pay more taxes!Igot a job in a new store in Capitola, Kalifornistan. Building inspector shows up & says the door dampening strut was out of calibration. Of course the inspector " knew a guy" so he makes a few turns of a tool & says it's good now...$150.00 later. After watching the next ten people about dislocate their shoulders opening the door, we adjusted it ourselves. Inspector walks in, looks at the sign off & tries the door..There now, that's more like it. Crooked?...Idiot? " There are no wrong answers!"

[altheating]

I bet the safety gas cans have caused more gas spills than all the old style cans combined. There is not one of them worth buying. They are all pieces of $#|+ !

[MaryB]

Local Menards hates me, I make them bring in fresh pallets of 2x4's when doing a project instead of buying everyone's rejects. Amazing the people who just grab stuff off the pile and use it and some of their projects show it.

I was helping a friend hang kitchen cabinets and having a hard time finding the studs. went around the back of the wall to see what he had done and everything was corkscrew, only half thick because of bark running down it... He said I saved a ton of money buying the cheap studs. Then I told him the bad news, he was going to have to sister in something straight everywhere we needed to hang a cabinet or I was not helping put them up. They would not have stayed up hanging from the garbage studs and in many cases they were so crooked the cabinets would not line up to them to attach.



It is all about money and not at all confined to NY, in fact many if not most states have laws against using lumber without the grade stamp.
The big mills have their own grade stamps, which means exactly nothing in the big picture, except for protecting their market. If a piece of chitty grade stamped lumber fails, no matter how much damage or cost associated with it, all they are responsible for is the cost of that one piece of lumber.
The laws are to protect big (very big) business and that is all. Anybody tat uses even a little amount of lumber, knows how much trouble it is to sort through a bundle to find a somewhat straight and clear board from any lumber yard. As far as rough cut goes, it means nothing, many small mills also have planers, edgers, and kilns, but can't get a grade stamp for any amount of money.

[C. Latch]

I bet the safety gas cans have caused more gas spills than all the old style cans combined. There is not one of them worth buying. They are all pieces of $#|+ !

http://ezpourspout.com/

<---satisfied customer

[Outer Rondacker]

Local Menards hates me, I make them bring in fresh pallets of 2x4's when doing a project instead of buying everyone's rejects. Amazing the people who just grab stuff off the pile and use it and some of their projects show it.

I was helping a friend hang kitchen cabinets and having a hard time finding the studs. went around the back of the wall to see what he had done and everything was corkscrew, only half thick because of bark running down it... He said I saved a ton of money buying the cheap studs. Then I told him the bad news, he was going to have to sister in something straight everywhere we needed to hang a cabinet or I was not helping put them up. They would not have stayed up hanging from the garbage studs and in many cases they were so crooked the cabinets would not line up to them to attach.
When I buy box store I do the same thing if I just need a small amount. When I am doing a bigger job I take 5-10 banded units and just return the 1-2 units of junk I end up with.


I bet the safety gas cans have caused more gas spills than all the old style cans combined. There is not one of them worth buying. They are all pieces of $#|+ !
I hate these new cans. I buy as many old style ones with the vent hole I can find for using. The few without vents I have I do fill but siphon into the ones with vents and old pour spouts to use. My god I need more coffee.

[Lloyd Smale]

building codes in Michigan don't allow it either

[dragon813gt]

http://ezpourspout.com/

<---satisfied customer

Illegal to sell in PA. Don't tell the internet that ;)
My only complaint is gas leaks out around the vent. On the cans I have there is about a 3" area you can install them. Other designs are a lot more forgiving.

[freebullet]

They are gonna tax air and wiping next.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess theres a reason for not allowing rough cut lumber. Not everyone is building for themselves. What if contractors were allowed to use it. Whats keeping them from using junk or even using lumber that real wet that will shrink after there long gone and cause problems. The building inspectors don't have the time to inspect every piece of lumber a contractor is using to build your home. Even if your doing it for yourself. Theres allways the chance that you will have to sell and move a year later. Kind of like when I was a lineman. Guys bitched they had to pay an electrical inspector to pass there house. Many claimed they knew more then the inspector or a certified electrician. Some of the **** we saw was almost scary. I know I sure wouldn't have wanted to buy that house before the inspector showed up. Same thing with most states demanding you use engineered truss. Sure some might do them better by themselves but some might want to save money there too.

[C. Latch]

I guess theres a reason for not allowing rough cut lumber. Not everyone is building for themselves. What if contractors were allowed to use it. Whats keeping them from using junk or even using lumber that real wet that will shrink after there long gone and cause problems. The building inspectors don't have the time to inspect every piece of lumber a contractor is using to build your home. Even if your doing it for yourself. Theres allways the chance that you will have to sell and move a year later. Kind of like when I was a lineman. Guys bitched they had to pay an electrical inspector to pass there house. Many claimed they knew more then the inspector or a certified electrician. Some of the **** we saw was almost scary. I know I sure wouldn't have wanted to buy that house before the inspector showed up. Same thing with most states demanding you use engineered truss. Sure some might do them better by themselves but some might want to save money there too.

There are free-market solutions to these sorts of problems that don't require giving government authority over every aspect of our lives.

[Steven Dzupin]

Maryland now has a rain tax !

Try to beat that. LOL

Regards,

Steve

[Outer Rondacker]

Maryland now has a rain tax !

Try to beat that. LOL

Regards,

Steve

You are messing with me?! I am going to look into this so the joke is prob on me but I have to know.

And look it up I did. There is a tax. Good old EPA.

[reloader28]

That rain tax is sheer stupidity at its finest.

I'm going to try some of those easypourspouts. That looks as close to the old spouts as you can get.

[starmac]

You can still buy vented gas cans. They are for race gas, our hardware store has a sign next to them saying they are not to be used for gasoline. lol

[cajun shooter]

Why not just set up a tour with all of the voting members of the bill. The tour of course would be all the old homes that are still here from the 1700's, 1800's, all of which were built with rough cut lumber.
What about the buildings that are erected by the Amish? I don't think they will take too kindly to such a law. Look around the Watertown area. Later Fairshake

[starmac]

I am looking at a sawmill now, so have been trying to research our laws on using rough cut lumber with no grade stamp. So far what I have come up with is, there are no state laws against using it, but and it is a big but there are guidelines for financial institutions to loan money if you decide to sell.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't like government intervention anymore then the next guy but when it comes to building a home there needs to be some accountability. To many think that they can save a buck here and there and don't understand that its sometimes safety there playing with. Ive seen so wiring jobs that buddys have done on garages ect that make my hair stand up. Sure you may be willing to take a chance but what about when you sell it and the next guy doesn't know whats in those walls. Because you have some nice rough cut timber that's as good or better then store bought doesn't mean joe down the street does. I get angry too sometimes. A few years ago when I built my pole barn we had the frame all done and the inspector came to check it and gigged me for not using galvanized nails. We had to renail the whole thing. I didn't do it on purpose but it never occurred to me that pressure treated lumber is wet and nails can corrode in it. How many other things would I need to know that I don't if I was building a home. How many mistakes would I make without an inspector. Some people think these inspectors are Nazis that want nothing more then to ruin your day but in fact there job is to protect you. Like I said maybe you feel you don't need it but what about 10 years from now when your buying a home someone else built. Don't you want to know that it was done right. that it wasn't thrown together with scrap lumber.
There are free-market solutions to these sorts of problems that don't require giving government authority over every aspect of our lives.

[dragon813gt]

I don't like government intervention anymore then the next guy but when it comes to building a home there needs to be some accountability. To many think that they can save a buck here and there and don't understand that its sometimes safety there playing with.

My house is the perfect example of this. Previous owners decided they were going to put a glass atrium on the side of the house. It was already torn down when I bought the house. But in their infinite wisdom they did the following. They cut out three courses of brick 14' long by 12" high. This was an outside load bearing wall and they did nothing to resupport the wall. But it gets better. Apparently the atrium had nice exposed beams in it. Because some of them are still connected inside the house. They're connected to a header. But the header is 3' in from the outside wall. They cut all the joists along that 14' span and headed them off 3' into the home. Of course the header isn't correct and they didn't support either end. So the floor in the room above all this sinks 9" in the middle. The windows, before I replaced them, had major gaps in them. The entire outside wall fell, figuratively, in the middle so the sills fell w/ it. This is why building inspections are needed.

Very few people in the trades complain about the inspectors. It's the homeowners that don't know what they're doing that complain. They feel they should be able to cobble together whatever they want however they want.

I have no idea how my house didn't collapse, it's 115 years old this year. The previous owners hacked everything up. You don't want to see the electrical work. And I'm still trying to figure out why I have a 12" thick bed of gypcrete poured around the perimeter of my living room. Maybe there was some floor rot and this was their fix? Thankfully I got my house for a steal because of all the issues.

If people knew what they were doing and did it properly every time inspectors wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately there are to many people that think they're a contractor. When in reality they shouldn't touch a tool. Sorry for the rant but it's not the professionals that complain.

The issue w/ building code is when it becomes corrupted. Someone's buddy owns a company and next thing you know you have to use that product. Big business does this on a large scale.

[C. Latch]

I don't like government intervention anymore then the next guy but....

I believe in gun rights, but.....
I believe in free speech, but......

I hope that one day people like you wake up and see that your mindset has enslaved us just as surely as any democrat scheme ever hatched.

[Lloyd Smale]

you have rights but in my opinion they end when you can possibly hurt another
I believe in gun rights, but.....
I believe in free speech, but......

I hope that one day people like you wake up and see that your mindset has enslaved us just as surely as any democrat scheme ever hatched.

[Lloyd Smale]

you have rights but in my opinion they end when you can possibly hurt another. What you don't have a right to do is build some substandard dangerous home that someone else might have to live in and cant even tell is wrong until the walls come down. Or with the "I can do anything even if I don't know how" attitude wire your home that when I come and put a meter in it the meter blows in my face because of a dead ground! Ask me how I know about that. It happened a few times to us before we had electrical inspections that had to be done before we plugged them in.
I believe in gun rights, but.....
I believe in free speech, but......

I hope that one day people like you wake up and see that your mindset has enslaved us just as surely as any democrat scheme ever hatched.

[Lloyd Smale]

Very few people in the trades complain about the inspectors. It's the homeowners that don't know what they're doing that complain. They feel they should be able to cobble together whatever they want however they want.
My experience exactly. Guy builds a 200k home and trys to cut corners on something that will save him a couple hundred bucks. Its why id never in a million years buy a home that the owner built himself. Contractors have there license to worry about so wont let you build your home out of some lumber you cut up with your chainsaw in the back yard.

[altheating]

The Amish will be out of business if they can't use rough cut lumber. It's not the material they use its the incompetence in their building skills that cause a problem. I know of three homes that are built with rough cut lumber all from good logs. They will be standing for many, many years. All the lumber was far better than the **** you have to pick through at Lowes or Home Depot. Screwbolts, you better watch out, your house is going to fall down based on the opinions above. I had a Amish crew build my 40X60 pole barn. Nothing was cut with a circular saw, they used a chainsaw to cut, notch and finish the building. Less than 1/4" on the 60' side out of square. From what I saw, it was a 6x6 pole that moved that caused the 1/4" shift. I would build with rough cut any day.

[Screwbolts]

Altheating , I am holding my opinion. Not worried about the house or building falling. Actually have neighbors that say this is the place to be in case of earthquake.

It all goes back to a simple FACT: " Ignorance can be educated out, But there is no fix for STUPID".

Ken

[starmac]

Well I pulled the plug this morning and bought a mill and 2 blade edger, so I will eventually saw some rough cut lumber. Soooo what can I build. lol

[C. Latch]

you have rights but in my opinion they end when you can possibly hurt another. What you don't have a right to do is build some substandard dangerous home that someone else might have to live in and cant even tell is wrong until the walls come down. Or with the "I can do anything even if I don't know how" attitude wire your home that when I come and put a meter in it the meter blows in my face because of a dead ground! Ask me how I know about that. It happened a few times to us before we had electrical inspections that had to be done before we plugged them in.

I also work in the electric industry, and what you fail to see - what you are absolutely, totally wrong about - is that there are free-market solution to ANY issue with substandard building. NOBODY has ever been forced to buy or live in a substandard house. Such a thing simply does not exist. Building inspections are simply, totally, absolutely outside the legitimate scope of government.

If an electric service provider doesn't want to work on suspect wiring, they don't have to. A utility can refuse to serve a customer they suspect of substandard work - or they can, as I have seen thousands of times, serve them anyway and let the owner worry about whether the house burns down.

You're not wrong to have concerns about poor building practices, but it is absolutely, unarguably immoral to neglect the use of free-market solutions to these problems and appeal to the state to 'fix' these things. Such appeals have absolutely ruined our nation by feeding the growth of the state.

[Screwbolts]

C. Latch, Total agreement here.

[Outer Rondacker]

Well I pulled the plug this morning and bought a mill and 2 blade edger, so I will eventually saw some rough cut lumber. Soooo what can I build. lol
Oh boy the list is endless. New question is what can you not make. Start by cutting some 4"-3" slabs for bar tops. Better get them drying asap. OH wait boards that is what the mill is for. 1"x12"s always can be used. Now put some 6-8" base wood clamped on a 45 angle in there and cut 3/4" ovals for horns. The longer the angle the bigger the mount. I can go on for days. Congrats on the mill you will love it.

[starmac]

The only thing we have big enough for slabs is spruce. Actually spruce and birch is pretty much all we have in this area, except for what we call cottonwood. The cottonwood looks like some kind of aspen cross. lol

[Outer Rondacker]

Frozen straight 3" birch cut down the middle twice makes for some nice rustic molding. Four equal parts looks nice in a man cave. White really offsets a room.

[Lloyd Smale]

double post

[Lloyd Smale]

why should the amish get any break any other contractor doesn't?
The Amish will be out of business if they can't use rough cut lumber. It's not the material they use its the incompetence in their building skills that cause a problem. I know of three homes that are built with rough cut lumber all from good logs. They will be standing for many, many years. All the lumber was far better than the **** you have to pick through at Lowes or Home Depot. Screwbolts, you better watch out, your house is going to fall down based on the opinions above. I had a Amish crew build my 40X60 pole barn. Nothing was cut with a circular saw, they used a chainsaw to cut, notch and finish the building. Less than 1/4" on the 60' side out of square. From what I saw, it was a 6x6 pole that moved that caused the 1/4" shift. I would build with rough cut any day.

[Lloyd Smale]

what you fail to see is theres many cheapskate people building there own home that would do anything to save a buck. There are also MANY unscrupulous contractors that will take short cuts to save money. If you haven't seen both of these many times id like to know what facet of the electrical industry you work for. An electrical utility has no way to police or to know who is doing good safe work and who isn't. We cant go and inspect every home ourselves or that cost would have to be passed on to all the utility customers. So what happens is you yourself out of your own pocket pay for your inspection so others don't have to.

You may say im building it for myself so its nobodys business what I do but your WRONG. If you have a fire you can not only burn down your home buy the homes next to you. Also whos to say that 2 years from now you might get a job transfer and sell that place. If the home has passed a structural inspection at least the new owner can about bet it wont fall down on him.

Sure you may be smart enough to use even better wood then store bought wood. Im not arguing that and I personaly think there should be an option of paying (yes paying because he has to use his time to do it) the inspector to come and inspect your wood just like he has to do when he inspects your trusses ect. But it should be an extra cost inspection because I shouldnt have to pay for your choice in lumber.What I sure don't agree with is that you should have free will to slap anything you want together with any material you can get cheap and build plumb and wire your house anyway you see fit. People being killed and people getting ripped off by these kinds of things in the past is what brought you these inspections.

Don't know about you but even though I consider myself pretty handy I sure am not an expert in every facet of building a home and if a building inspector can steer me away from making mistakes the 100 bucks he cost is money well spent. Ive built garages that probably cost twice that in beer to get done.

it was brought up in someone else's post that its not the contractors that are complaining, at least not the reputable ones. Sure sign of a shoddy contractor or someone who is trying to cut corners is a person who is afraid of or cusses a building inspector.
I also work in the electric industry, and what you fail to see - what you are absolutely, totally wrong about - is that there are free-market solution to ANY issue with substandard building. NOBODY has ever been forced to buy or live in a substandard house. Such a thing simply does not exist. Building inspections are simply, totally, absolutely outside the legitimate scope of government.

If an electric service provider doesn't want to work on suspect wiring, they don't have to. A utility can refuse to serve a customer they suspect of substandard work - or they can, as I have seen thousands of times, serve them anyway and let the owner worry about whether the house burns down.

You're not wrong to have concerns about poor building practices, but it is absolutely, unarguably immoral to neglect the use of free-market solutions to these problems and appeal to the state to 'fix' these things. Such appeals have absolutely ruined our nation by feeding the growth of the state.

[starmac]

Why would contractors complain, or even be against it? Wouldn't that be like complaining supper was on the table. Belive it or not, there are still places in this country you can still build your own house without a permit or license, or even an inspectionand for some strange reason folks are still alive there.

[badbob454]

sent from nevada ... dont know if it will count...

[Lloyd Smale]

maybe in the mountains of Alaska by those "Alaskan bush people" but I don't know of any place in the lower states that you can build a home without pulling permits or inspections..
Why would contractors complain, or even be against it? Wouldn't that be like complaining supper was on the table. Belive it or not, there are still places in this country you can still build your own house without a permit or license, or even an inspectionand for some strange reason folks are still alive there.

[jmort]

There are a number of counties that do not require building permits. Many will require permitting and/or inspection of the septic system. Two that I can think of off the top of my head, Howell County Missouri and Pershing County Nevada. They are out there for sure.

[Outer Rondacker]

Thank you badbob454.

Lloyd, This law if passed will make it so you can not even build a POLE BARN or SHED out or rough cut lumber even if kiln dried and faced planned. It is no different then waking up tomorrow and finding out there is a law you can not cast your own bullets or buy from anyone who does make bullet heads unless it was one of the four major name brands. Oh my this happened overnight thanks to some lobbying done on the part of making it safe for your reloading. ANYTHING can be done half butt. That is not the point. We are not looking to build a house with no inspector. This law will not just state NO HOUSE BUILDING. It covers way more then that and even cuts into your personal rights and will take out Tens of thousands of jobs in just one state.

[dragon813gt]

This particular law is bad news all around. Building code in general is not. This one reeks of big business legislating the small competition out of business. It has nothing to do w/ you not building your own home. It has to do w/ shutting down small local businesses to the benefit of the large corporations.

[starmac]

I do not know how it is now, and it was some years ago, but when I built my house in Leon county Texas, a resident required no permits of any kind. Some counties did, some didn't, it isn't just an Alaska thing.

There was a time when most folks (outside of cities) built their own homes. Many times with help from friends and neighbors and for the most part they were sound, rules and regulations have dumbed the population down to where the average person anymore doesn't wouldn't know where to start.
Nearly everybody drives a vehicle of some kind, but these days many doesn't know how to change a flat tire or check their oil, should we not be able to do these things either.
Many people doesn't think reloaded ammo is safe, and for sure all of it isn't, should we have to get permits to load our own ammo?
In other words where do you draw the line on more government control and insight for our daily lives?

[Outer Rondacker]

Funny you say that about the neighbors and friends helping. This spring when I build my new SMALL home all the local neighbors and true friends have offered to help. The house is going to be well over built and very simple to erect. I have just over 1k feet of cherry dried cut to 5/4" for my cabinets.

As for cars well some of the makes have a tool needed to take off a cover over the motor. You can not do anything without this tool. It is not sold just issued to dealers. Can not even change the batt without it.

[cajun shooter]

The Parish that I live in(Yes we have what is known as a Parish, it comes from the Catholic Religion) in Louisiana has just enacted building permits and inspectors on all jobs in just the last 5 years. Before that, you could build what you wanted and where you wanted.
Lloyd, I think you are correct in what you are saying but you are missing the point on why some of us are objecting.
It's big business that is behind this bill, you can smell it from a mile away. If I owned 500 acres and I decided to use my lumber to build my home on my property, that would not be allowed. Even if I hired someone with a portable mill and had them do my lumber on the job. I would have to go to my local Home Depot, Lowes or Lumber yard to purchase the stamped lumber that they sell. That's not right and it stinks to high heaven.
Let me give you some background, my family has been in the building trades for the past 5 generations and we all have been Union trained and have been strong believers in the union trades. Here in Louisiana, the unions were busted out of business in the early 70's by the huge Chemical Industries in the area. Our electricians, carpenters, bricklayers and so on are now making the same wages that I made in the 70's.
The man who pushed the bill through became sick with terminal cancer about 3 years ago. His last thing to do was to print a full page ad in the Baton Rouge, La. paper apologizing to all of the working people in Louisiana. He said that if he knew that the bill would have destroyed the working man's wages for over 30 years, he would have not passed the bill.
I used this as an example of what big business can and will do to control the flow of money in this country. As a working man, you should see that the middle class is no more and the chance to better yourself has been lost for the tradesman.
They just had on our National news last week that the top 1% of the richest people in the USA now control 51% of all the funds. Does that sound as if they need more money to keep going?
The reason that many area's in Louisiana had to go to permits and inspections were because of substandard work being done by all the illegals working on our jobs.
My wife and I had a home design drafting business before the recession set in. One of our contractors was having a problem with the layout on one of his lots and wanted us to come out to check out the plot plan. While there he showed us a fireplace in a home we designed for him that was built by the South of the Border workers. The wall was out 4 1/2 inches in just 4 feet. So this type of labor I'm strongly against but I built a home on my property and did all the sub work. I hired nothing but licensed electricians, plumbers and other crafts. I also built things on my own. I used rough cut cypress logs from the Louisiana swamps for a lot of my construction. It's not right that I could be told no if I decide to do it again. Later David

[starmac]

Lol. Who benefits the most by saving a buck a square foot, or even 10 bucks. Is it the guy that builds his own house once or twice a lifetime, or contractors that have 50 tract homes going at a time? If you really want to see corners cut, look at tract homes the bigger the contractor the more corners cut you will see. Most of owner built homes I have been around are way over built compared to mass produced homes.

These new laws, rules or regulations are never put in place to protect the end user. The mills that produce graded lumber has exactly the same responsibility at time of failure as a guy that cuts his with an axe, except they have to refund the money on the one board that fails. Much if not most graded lumber is machine graded these days anyway.

[Certaindeaf]

I'm on it. Been voting Republic since the git go.

[shooter93]

The free market checks are doing your research. I'm the easiest guy to check on. Call anyone I've ever done work for....anyone.....you will not be worried about buying something I built. If the home owner tells you he built it and that bothers you.....don't buy it. I fully understand your concerns about wiring and things like that but an inspector is there for minutes. A shoddy builder could do the minimum and then do anything he wants after you leave. Trust me I see it all the time. Do your research. It's a huge investment.

[MaryB]

When my dad built his first new house it had a cantilever deck that wrapped around a corner. Building inspector came out and said that the 45 degree joist running out from under the house floor was way to long and we could have made it half as long and just used a cheap treated lumber instead of the cedar. My dad looked at him and flat out said "I am not building a spec house, I am the one who is going to be living here and everything is going to be built to last." Inspector shrugged and signed off saying it wasn't his problem, it would never fail. Over the years that deck had enough people out on it to push that corner joist over the maximum if it had been made shorter and with a cheaper material.

Average person building a home for themselves is not like joe blow trying to add a room on and knows nothing. My dad was an electrician and he had been around construction his entire life. We had been gutting and remodeling houses since I was 10(I made a lot of money in the summer tearing out plaster and lathe) and totally redoing them. Only thing dad would not do is plumbing.

[Lloyd Smale]

your arguments that contractors can be more shoddy then a home owner only adds to my argument that ALL builders should be held to standards. There for everyones safety. If you build better then code more power to you. But once a home is built you cant tear the walls down before you buy it to verify that it was built right. Knowing that the home had a electrical, plumbing and structural inspection would sure make me more comfortable plunking down my money. I kind of chuckle at the guys claiming its un-American, taking away freedoms. What about seat belts, helmet laws, smoking in public, speed limits, laws against illegal drugs, all could fall under the category of its my business and im not hurting you. But in fact building code violations can effect others. Its why homeowner and home buyers need to be protected against shoddy work. Not everyone understands what it takes to build a good home and wouldn't know a dangerous thing if it bit them in the nose. Only possible argument I can see against inspections and codes is someone who wants to skirt them to save a few bucks. If those few bucks make the difference in you being able to build that home or not then your in way over your head doing it in the first place.

I don't like rules either. I think I should be able to smoke in a bar and if you don't like it leave. I think I shouldn't have to wear a seat belt or a helmet on my bike. I don't think because you cant handle your Malibu at over 55 mph without a higher risk of accidents that I should have to drive my vette 55. But the thing is I do. Even if I am better at it then the next guy I have no choice. Why? because people who came before you ruined it. they cant take driving skill or building skill on a one at a time basis. So we get blanket laws. There was no doubt some cases where in you example someone used so shoddy rough cut timber and maybe a house or garage came down and hurt someone. In the case of electrical inspections im sure they came about from homes burning down due to poor wiring practices. So you pay the price for those who came behind you and those that are constantly trying to put things over on others.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't see it taking out jobs. Just the opposite it probably adds jobs. Someone has to plane that lumber and dry it and grade it. Use rough cut off your own property aren't you taking away there jobs? How is you using lumber you made to build your garage saving jobs anywhere?
Thank you badbob454.

Lloyd, This law if passed will make it so you can not even build a POLE BARN or SHED out or rough cut lumber even if kiln dried and faced planned. It is no different then waking up tomorrow and finding out there is a law you can not cast your own bullets or buy from anyone who does make bullet heads unless it was one of the four major name brands. Oh my this happened overnight thanks to some lobbying done on the part of making it safe for your reloading. ANYTHING can be done half butt. That is not the point. We are not looking to build a house with no inspector. This law will not just state NO HOUSE BUILDING. It covers way more then that and even cuts into your personal rights and will take out Tens of thousands of jobs in just one state.

[C. Latch]

May your chains rest lightly.

[cajun shooter]

Lloyd, It's clear that your mind has been programmed to zero in on one thing and keep stating it over and over regardless of the information provided you. I've always enjoyed exchanging information with you during my time on this site but in this case it's a bang your head against the wall situation. So I'll close my side out by saying we will agree to disagree. Take Care David

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't agree. I think its a safey thing and it protects the home buyer. If you want to save a few bucks get your rough cut lumber planed and graded. This isn't a political thing. The political thing is just grasping straws by the few that it hurts. Personaly if I lived in NY my time would be spent fighting your gun laws. They effect MANY more then this rough cut building code does and is a REAL political problem. I don't now of a single large corporation around here that builds homes. Ill bow out of this now because it doesn't effect me in any way and have said my peace.
This particular law is bad news all around. Building code in general is not. This one reeks of big business legislating the small competition out of business. It has nothing to do w/ you not building your own home. It has to do w/ shutting down small local businesses to the benefit of the large corporations.

[dragon813gt]

Grasping at straws? Not even close. I agree w/ you that building code is a good thing. But you are being short sighted if you don't see the political side of this particular law. There are many large builders in my area. Toll Brothers, Pulte and Ryan just to name a few. I don't think they will really benefit from this law. But I know for a fact they negotiate w/ inspectors so they can cut corners when they build their McMansions.

W/out living in the state I can't say how many people this law will effect. But we have members that are saying it will cost jobs. I will defer to them since they are the ones there. As an outsider looking in I can see the political motives behind this. Most laws in New York are anything but benign. And they're never about safety. You only need to look at the S.A.F.E. Act to realize that part.

[starmac]

LOL More than a few of small sawmills finish plane and kiln dry their lumber, even home operations. lol I just bought a mill and will have a kiln before the year is out.
The mill here that I haul logs too employees quite a few people, plus keeps several logging companies going, milling several truckloads a day, yet they are not big enough to have the corporate clout to be able to have graded lumber.

This law has nothing to do with inspections or even permits, it has to do with keeping all the lumber business for the big corporations period and keeping the smaller operator in their place.

[waksupi]

A point which I think some miss, is rough cut lumber is considerably stronger than graded lumber.

[ballistim]

A point which I think some miss, is rough cut lumber is considerably stronger than graded lumber.

I buy rough sawn when I can for two reasons, one already mentioned by waksupi, the other is that I'm supporting someone local with a sawmill and developing a good relationship should I need custom cut lumber in the future.

[Outer Rondacker]

You guys have made for some wonderful reading. No really I mean it thank you all. Let me just add a few things that have already been said.

Every mill needs at least one operator, and maybe one to tail the mill. Some employ more to load logs and plan chip slabs so on. They all BUY logs from local loggers. This means guys in the woods. If there are guys in the woods that means saw, skidders, fuel oil so on. Truck drivers to hall logs. All that makes LOCAL jobs. Local mill sells slab wood for outdoor burning in boilers.

Big business= lots of machinery and very few jobs. Lots of money in a bigwigs bank account. Price control.

I have the right to choose.

Last thing. If I cut logs off my land it does make jobs. I hire a local kid in high school or college to stack wood and sticker it. I hire the portable mill operator and mill to come cut on my land. I hire backhoe guy to come pull stumps and hall away after trees are cut. I cut the limbs of the trees I cut down into firewood saving me money from the big oil company. This money I save I spend at the local pub with the boys. Owner of the pub needs more help and hires my buddies wife. Buddies wife then recycles money hopefully local. Wash rinse repeat.

Once again thank you all that have helped out and I am really enjoying reading and posting with you all.

[wgr]

How on earth did this country survive without all these government nannies coming along. As a kid I had a BB gun and ran with scissors, I'm still here.
you are a very lucky man.

[shooter93]

Ric...rough cut is not always stronger than surfaced lumber. It's the species not whether it's rough or planed. Some woods are stronger or more flex resistant than others. It's the species....you don't use rough sawn balsa wood as a main means of support unless it so friggin huge you can't move it and you'd still end up with a weaker structure. Lumber and engineered products are rated for a reason. I'm not defending the law NY is trying to pass. Things like this for me fall under the....How did we ever survive this long before we had all these rules and regulations?....we did pretty good I think and most of this all boils down to an intrusion.
Many people think the license required by builders protects them....nope. We now have a license law here. My family is a founding member of this chapter of the PA. Assoc. of Builders which is the state chapter of the NHBA. I fought licenses my entire life. If you want to start a business...do it....do good work...you survive. I don't need a knee jerk politician in the capital writing a "test" to see how good a builder I am. The group of builders who got on board with the licensing scheme were the large builders....protecting their market. When I mentioned if we are going to really protect the consumer then the requirement for getting a license should be a minimum of 35 years experience in every trade in building a house. They all just looked at me....yep....you all work for me now because I'm the only one here that can make that claim.
Well...the law passed with their help....BUT....it only applies to the small builders who also do remodeling work.....not the large "home builders" The largest scandals in this state over slip shod work and sun standard adherence to codes has been by those same builders. The person protecting you is you....do your research. Anyone who doesn't believe in any area there are "multiple codes " in their area depending who you are hasn't been around all that much or isn't paying attention.

[starmac]

correct sawn rough cut is always stronger than finish planed lumber, but you can't compare different species. Even balsa should be stronger rough than finished, it is just a size thing

[MaryB]

And the moral of the story is your money stays in the local community where it helps others instead of going to some multimillionaire in a city far away who then banks it offshore to dodge taxes.



You guys have made for some wonderful reading. No really I mean it thank you all. Let me just add a few things that have already been said.

Every mill needs at least one operator, and maybe one to tail the mill. Some employ more to load logs and plan chip slabs so on. They all BUY logs from local loggers. This means guys in the woods. If there are guys in the woods that means saw, skidders, fuel oil so on. Truck drivers to hall logs. All that makes LOCAL jobs. Local mill sells slab wood for outdoor burning in boilers.

Big business= lots of machinery and very few jobs. Lots of money in a bigwigs bank account. Price control.

I have the right to choose.

Last thing. If I cut logs off my land it does make jobs. I hire a local kid in high school or college to stack wood and sticker it. I hire the portable mill operator and mill to come cut on my land. I hire backhoe guy to come pull stumps and hall away after trees are cut. I cut the limbs of the trees I cut down into firewood saving me money from the big oil company. This money I save I spend at the local pub with the boys. Owner of the pub needs more help and hires my buddies wife. Buddies wife then recycles money hopefully local. Wash rinse repeat.

Once again thank you all that have helped out and I am really enjoying reading and posting with you all.

[MaryB]

Modern lumber cut from new growth fast growing trees is JUNK compared to timber cut from old growth trees or natural trees instead of some hybrid designed to grow fast.

And I would think someone cutting lumber FOR THEIR OWN HOUSE would pick species that are strong and not junk species like poplar. I am a firm believer in do it right the first time because it really sucks to have to tear it out and redo it. I learned that early on helping mom and dad remodel houses.


Ric...rough cut is not always stronger than surfaced lumber. It's the species not whether it's rough or planed. Some woods are stronger or more flex resistant than others. It's the species....you don't use rough sawn balsa wood as a main means of support unless it so friggin huge you can't move it and you'd still end up with a weaker structure. Lumber and engineered products are rated for a reason. I'm not defending the law NY is trying to pass. Things like this for me fall under the....How did we ever survive this long before we had all these rules and regulations?....we did pretty good I think and most of this all boils down to an intrusion.
Many people think the license required by builders protects them....nope. We now have a license law here. My family is a founding member of this chapter of the PA. Assoc. of Builders which is the state chapter of the NHBA. I fought licenses my entire life. If you want to start a business...do it....do good work...you survive. I don't need a knee jerk politician in the capital writing a "test" to see how good a builder I am. The group of builders who got on board with the licensing scheme were the large builders....protecting their market. When I mentioned if we are going to really protect the consumer then the requirement for getting a license should be a minimum of 35 years experience in every trade in building a house. They all just looked at me....yep....you all work for me now because I'm the only one here that can make that claim.
Well...the law passed with their help....BUT....it only applies to the small builders who also do remodeling work.....not the large "home builders" The largest scandals in this state over slip shod work and sun standard adherence to codes has been by those same builders. The person protecting you is you....do your research. Anyone who doesn't believe in any area there are "multiple codes " in their area depending who you are hasn't been around all that much or isn't paying attention.

[waksupi]

Around here rough cut is pine. If you get larch, you will most likely be drilling a hole to drive a nail. That is what my cabin is built from, and I can tell you, if you need to pull a nail, you will pull off the head, and be wondering how the hell you are going to get the rest of the nail out. Once it is nailed, it stays nailed.

[merlin101]

DONE!! Thats just about what I've come to expect from the former Empire state.

[Outer Rondacker]

Poplar in my area is used for two things. Molding since it has very few knots and passes down the edger molder easy. Two outdoor firewood.

Pine, spruse and eastern hemlock get made into framing. We go true 2x6 here in the dacks in the walls. For my new home I am up in the air on which way I am going to go. 8x12 D shaped logs off the mill out or red pine or stick built.

MaryB you hit the nail on the head. Local money.

Merlin101 thank you.

Waksupi what you said about taking out a nail is spot on. If we use hemlock its the same way. We even have locust here but that is all used for trailer beds and fence posts. You cant screw it they just brake. Nails no way. The fence post I put in the ground as a young farm hand are still there and standing strong.

[Screwbolts]

Where is John Galt??

[Lloyd Smale]

like I said it sure isn't causing job loss. Someone had to mill that lumber, dry it , grade it. I live in an area that is about completely supported by wood. Be it cutters, lumber mills, paper mills ect. Lots of jobs. After the Chicago fire Chicago was rebuilt by lumber from trees cut with in a 50 square mile area of my home. If anything you going out and cutting your own is cutting jobs. So whos benifiting more. A larger contractor paying union scale to his workers or some local carpenter paying ten bucks an hour to a bunch of guys he cant hold on to after payday because there on a one week drunk.

Whats your cut off forbeing called local. Is it 2 miles from your house, 10 miles, a 100 miles. You want to support local jobs. So who are you going to hire to build your home. The big contractor or the little guy when the big contractor comes in 10k cheaper. I would sure have to guess your picking the big contractor to save money. If not you wouldn't be worried about saving a few hundred using rough cut wood.

I was on your side a while back. When my pole barn burned to the ground I had to have another built. I wanted to stay local (in my home town) so I hired the local contractor, who does have a good reputation, and didn't bother with any other bids. He build me a nice barn. No doubt about it. My other two neighbors liked it so much they decided they wanted new pole barns. They both hired the same contractor that's business was in a town about 60 miles from here. All he does is pole barns. they both had similar barns to mind built and had the done for 6k less money. Whos the sucker here?

How many of the keep in local guys are shopping on Saturday at Walmart or driving a Japanese car? Give me a break. If that big company your badmouthing could save you 5k youd use them in a heartbeat. The only one this law is maybe hurting is the few and I mean FEW people that have land that has wood and can cut it themselves and can mill it themselves. Im sure that's less then 1 percent of all the pole barns or homes built. Even here where the wood is in your back yard id bet not 1 percent would do it. Your not fighting this for any ideals be they political or not. Your fighting it because your one of the rare ones that many can do this and think you should get a special set of rules just for you. In that way It does kind of remind me of the rich and politicaly powerful. Now I am out of here. All it is is some wining because you want laws that save you money personaly. Not laws that are there to keep the other 99 percent of us safe and secure in the fact that when we buy a home we know it was built right.

[Outer Rondacker]

Lloyd others have already said it so in case you missed it I will repeat it once more. There is just no talking to you. You have a one track mind and that is you are right no mater what.

How do you take turning what I said about having more local jobs with small owner operated mills and turn it into more jobs for big mills. One fact if you looked into it is large operations are computerized. Unless I missed a stage in evolution computers are not people. They sure as heck are not local. Let me define what I feel is local for you. Local as in the area around me leeding up to the next large town in all directions.

I drive an F250. I do not shop at walmart.

God willing I will never pay for something I can do as long as I can still walk this earth. I build with men who are in there 60-70s all the time. My daddy dint teach me anything worth a spit but my friends fathers and granddads have showed me more then I can teach in the time I have left on this earth. One of the best things I learned from a man I would be proud to call my father is a comment I wish to use now.

Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I see now this sheep can not be lead to water.

We can all see why you are in favor of the big guy. You feel you got screwed 6k and still have not got over it. Let it go....

[MaryB]

I do business locally as much as I possibly can. If it cost me a few dollars more it is worth it to SCREW WALL STREET


like I said it sure isn't causing job loss. Someone had to mill that lumber, dry it , grade it. I live in an area that is about completely supported by wood. Be it cutters, lumber mills, paper mills ect. Lots of jobs. After the Chicago fire Chicago was rebuilt by lumber from trees cut with in a 50 square mile area of my home. If anything you going out and cutting your own is cutting jobs. So whos benifiting more. A larger contractor paying union scale to his workers or some local carpenter paying ten bucks an hour to a bunch of guys he cant hold on to after payday because there on a one week drunk.

Whats your cut off forbeing called local. Is it 2 miles from your house, 10 miles, a 100 miles. You want to support local jobs. So who are you going to hire to build your home. The big contractor or the little guy when the big contractor comes in 10k cheaper. I would sure have to guess your picking the big contractor to save money. If not you wouldn't be worried about saving a few hundred using rough cut wood.

I was on your side a while back. When my pole barn burned to the ground I had to have another built. I wanted to stay local (in my home town) so I hired the local contractor, who does have a good reputation, and didn't bother with any other bids. He build me a nice barn. No doubt about it. My other two neighbors liked it so much they decided they wanted new pole barns. They both hired the same contractor that's business was in a town about 60 miles from here. All he does is pole barns. they both had similar barns to mind built and had the done for 6k less money. Whos the sucker here?

How many of the keep in local guys are shopping on Saturday at Walmart or driving a Japanese car? Give me a break. If that big company your badmouthing could save you 5k youd use them in a heartbeat. The only one this law is maybe hurting is the few and I mean FEW people that have land that has wood and can cut it themselves and can mill it themselves. Im sure that's less then 1 percent of all the pole barns or homes built. Even here where the wood is in your back yard id bet not 1 percent would do it. Your not fighting this for any ideals be they political or not. Your fighting it because your one of the rare ones that many can do this and think you should get a special set of rules just for you. In that way It does kind of remind me of the rich and politicaly powerful. Now I am out of here. All it is is some wining because you want laws that save you money personaly. Not laws that are there to keep the other 99 percent of us safe and secure in the fact that when we buy a home we know it was built right.

[starmac]

Did I hear union, lol I see said the blind man.By your own figures, home owned mills probably mill less than one percent of the lumber, but we need a SPECIAL law to keep that one percent or less for the big guys. Oh yea and the unions, can,t let them have any competition.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lots of democrats here that don't even realize they are democratic. Scream free enterprise until it hits your own wallet. there you wanted to make this political so id did. Like I said this isn't a political issue its a safety issue. Just because you think you can tell good lumber from bad doesn't mean the next guy buying your house can. With consistant rules a man can go anywhere in the country and buy a home and know it was put together at least well enough to pass code. So that a building inspector doesn't have to inspect every single board you use to build for strength and dryness because my friends that would cost you more then the inspected lumber. It makes me feel so good that I can move to NY and buy a home that I know isn't going to fall down or have to see the walls start cracking 10 years from now when the lumber shrinks. So good I might just pack my bags:popcorn:

[Lloyd Smale]

So do I mary but in most cases the lumber mills are within "local" distance of your home anyway. But old festus running the portable mill in his back yard and no doubt not paying taxes on the money hes making can probably do it for a couple bucks less. The mill no doubt has to pay its employees a competitive salary so that there family just like yours can afford to eat. You see Mary theres a lot of dishonesty here. These guys could care less about jobs or if there money is staying local or for that matter about the next guy that might buy there home or if the man milling there wood can afford to buy school clothes for his kids. All they care about is there OWN wallet period. How much money THEY can save and screw everyone else. Like I said its sounds a lot more like a bunch of democrats the more they get angry and say what they really feel. Id bet anything I have that I buy as much local and by as much made in the USA as ANYONE here. But like I said building codes aren't made up without safety reasons.
I do business locally as much as I possibly can. If it cost me a few dollars more it is worth it to SCREW WALL STREET

[Lloyd Smale]

one thing I learned that my dad used to preach. Theres no arguing with a man that votes with his wallet instead of his heart.
Lloyd others have already said it so in case you missed it I will repeat it once more. There is just no talking to you. You have a one track mind and that is you are right no mater what.

How do you take turning what I said about having more local jobs with small owner operated mills and turn it into more jobs for big mills. One fact if you looked into it is large operations are computerized. Unless I missed a stage in evolution computers are not people. They sure as heck are not local. Let me define what I feel is local for you. Local as in the area around me leeding up to the next large town in all directions.

I drive an F250. I do not shop at walmart.

God willing I will never pay for something I can do as long as I can still walk this earth. I build with men who are in there 60-70s all the time. My daddy dint teach me anything worth a spit but my friends fathers and granddads have showed me more then I can teach in the time I have left on this earth. One of the best things I learned from a man I would be proud to call my father is a comment I wish to use now.

Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I see now this sheep can not be lead to water.

We can all see why you are in favor of the big guy. You feel you got screwed 6k and still have not got over it. Let it go....

[Outer Rondacker]

There is nothing worse then an uneducated twerp stomping his feet and having a temper tantrum. Moving on this morning I am at the 1959 hunting camp on the lake. Built of 2x4 rough cut. Even the roof is only 2x4s. There is an entire winters of snow on the roof and all looks good. Every other camp on this lake is from the 50-60s and was cut from local pine on the old swing mill. Build from sub part 2x4s we cant even use now and days in these parts. Built on blocks and hand hued beams. I have never heard of one falling down or having a roof fall in with 6ft of snow on them. I have knocked a few down to build new modern day camps/houses.

[Lloyd Smale]

so now its name calling. A bit childish. Looks like your crying isn't going to do a bit of good anyway. Its called America. Where the majority rule. Sometimes common sense really does win out.

[dragon813gt]

You really think there is no political motivation behind this bill? And I mean none, zip, zilch, not one iota of political motivation.

[Lloyd Smale]

everything is political. Every thing political has two sides. That's why in America the majority rule not the few with special interests. I think its kind of comical myself that the original poster would even waste time crying about it here. Does he think that for some reason bullet casters from all over the world are going to come together to fight this issue for him or is he just looking for a pity party. Id would think he would better spend the time hes wasted here doing some leg work around his area with a petition so his opinions could be spread amongst people who really are effected by this. I would guess in the less then a year hes been on this forum he hasn't drummed up many people that will REALLY help him or even could if they wanted to. I see nothing constructive here just some tears.

[ballistim]

Around here rough cut is pine. If you get larch, you will most likely be drilling a hole to drive a nail. That is what my cabin is built from, and I can tell you, if you need to pull a nail, you will pull off the head, and be wondering how the hell you are going to get the rest of the nail out. Once it is nailed, it stays nailed.

Several types of both hardwood and softwood rough sawn were available when I bought my place, some of it stacked in the barns here and some given to me by a neighbor who's barn was being razed. According to him, all of it was cut to clear for crops directly behind my property and the neighbor directly 1 mi. south of me owned a sawmill and made lumber from all the trees from my property and his property. Projects over the years consumed all of that & I've bought more. Waksupi isn't kidding, aged rough sawn hardwood requires drilling and still produces bent nails & broken screws but once it's there it's not going anywhere.. looking out the window at the pole barn in 25 mph winds as I'm typing this.

[starmac]

Oppressive laws are oppressive laws, it doesn't matter if they are about lumber, guns or lead bullets. I would bet that NY already had laws concerning ungraded lumber for structural use in residiential or commercial buildings, but it takes a special kind of person to think that you should have to use store bought lumber to build the wood shed or or doghouse.
This law (if followed) will cause a lot of waste as most small mills use trees from sources too small for the big mills to be able to use for financial reaons. In fact many of the trees cut by small owners are now slated for the land fill.

[blackthorn]

As a "stand alone issue", An all encompassing law to prevent the use of (generic) rough sawn lumber is everything evil submitted here by its detractors! It is not the fact that lumber is either rough or planed or really if it has a "stamp" or not! The issue really is (or should be) whether or not the product is an appropriate specie and if it is safe to use. There is no reason building inspectors can (could) not check, although the lumber one intends to use would have to be seen before it was nailed up. All one has to do is to go into a Home Depot, Rona or other big box lumber store and take a look at the garbage you are supposed to buy (you will find a "stamp" on it) but there is a large amount that I would not feel safe using. There is NO argument to be made that lumber produced in a Union or non-Union mill is any better (or worse) than the other, BUT there are a lot of people making good wages in the non Union sector that are doing so only due to the fight and sacrifice of their Union brothers and sisters! There are more than one type of "freeloader". The OP raised legislation preventing the use of rough cut lumber as the issue, not whether inspections where a good idea, and I think we got a bit (as we often do) off topic. Inspections = good! Legislating type of cut = bad! I will say, that if I lived in the USA, from some of the comments made on this thread, there are for sure a few people here I would not care to do business with!

[Outer Rondacker]

I think its kind of comical myself that the original poster would even waste time crying about it here. Does he think that for some reason bullet casters from all over the world are going to come together to fight this issue for him or is he just looking for a pity party. Id would think he would better spend the time hes wasted here doing some leg work around his area with a petition so his opinions could be spread amongst people who really are effected by this. I would guess in the less then a year hes been on this forum he hasn't drummed up many people that will REALLY help him or even could if they wanted to. I see nothing constructive here just some tears.

I do think bullet casters would care about this. I have more respect for casters as they work with there hands and tend to be more of an All American kinda person. Yes all over the USA I do think people would like to fight this in one state before it comes to a state you are in. I am doing a lot of leg work as you call it in my own state and area but if you look at most of my posts on this topic they are before people are even out of there house most times. Kinds hard to talk to people if there still in bed. And yes out of state people will help by sending an email in. If you opened the link you would see there is a place to check what state you live in. Lloyd thank you for bringing the worst out of me. Good day

[Screwbolts]

Who is John Galt?

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry bucko but it wasn't me that started the immature name calling. It was you. Ever get through MI stop and see this uneducated twirp. I use my real name when I post for a purpose. Sorry if I ruined your day but nothing I posted is untrue and nothing that someone else that's going to go up against you in this thing isn't going to say. If you cant handle me without loosing your cool you don't have much of a chance up against a career politician. Good luck with it because with your approach your going to need it. Anyway this is a cast bullet forum not a political forum so ill go back to posting more on topic. You should try it.
I do think bullet casters would care about this. I have more respect for casters as they work with there hands and tend to be more of an All American kinda person. Yes all over the USA I do think people would like to fight this in one state before it comes to a state you are in. I am doing a lot of leg work as you call it in my own state and area but if you look at most of my posts on this topic they are before people are even out of there house most times. Kinds hard to talk to people if there still in bed. And yes out of state people will help by sending an email in. If you opened the link you would see there is a place to check what state you live in. Lloyd thank you for bringing the worst out of me. Good day

[shdwlkr]

I remember way back in the 70's when I lived in NYS and building my new house. The inspector liked the concrete work, I didn't north wall leaned out almost a foot. I worked with a lot of licensed Civil Engineers then and they came out took pictures, measured somethings and wrote up a report. The inspector lost his job, the contractor had to come in and redo the wall with the house sitting on it according to the drawings the licensed engineers mandated.
The electrical inspector was not a happy camper the first time he came to the house to inspect the wiring, until he started looking he could not believe that I used a heavier wire then I needed, had better connections than usual and he could see everything very easy. He came back three times it was a pleasure to have him come out to the house.
All this says is that just because they are inspectors it doesn't make the house safe or even correct.
My brother and I want to build me a house one day and we are the most picky individuals to deal with. I am the dirt and concrete guy, he understands everything else about house building. We like built up trusses much easier than trying to figure it out for ourselves, we over build everything just cause we can.
think of insulation we like R38 at least in the walls, R50 in the ceiling is nice, does it cost more of course it does but the savings in engry can only save me money later. We will bring in the subs we need to do things we don't wish to as we need them. We are willing to let someone else hang the sheet rock. On the 6000 square foot house we last built it was sheet rocked in 2 1/2 days the whole house by the sheet rock guys. they worked with 14 and 16 foot sheet rock and it was so easy for them.
As to NYS passing another silly law what else is new. One reason I am in the state I am in now along with it is better health wise for me.
Stating that no one can build better than a licensed whoever is just being short sighted, some can some can't it is that simple. I like rough cut lumber if you have to run it through a plane to take the roughness off who care it is still thicker than the twisted yellow pine of lows or homedopt. I looked one day at both places for just two straight 2x6x8 lumber, I wasted most of the day doing so found one at each place.
If I do get to build one last place I will buy a whole bundle and take what I want and return the junk to the next person. I am not going to waste my time sorting for someone else.
Sheet rock will buy by the truck load saves me time and aggravation
You spend your money as best you can and build as best you can no matter if it is you or a contractor.

[MaryB]

They still spend in the local economy, that money stays in the community or near it instead of padding some wall street bankers account. They need to buy fuel, they have to buy vehicles, they have to buy food... so they undercut the big guy and get a $10k order, say they get 4-5 of these a year. They are not getting rich, in fact by the time they pay expenses they are probably just getting by like the bulk of this country.

But when you buy at a Home Depot, Menards etc part of that money leaves the community and never comes back again. It lines shareholder pockets somewhere. And the people working there get crappy wages so they are likely getting food stamps to get by themselves.



So do I mary but in most cases the lumber mills are within "local" distance of your home anyway. But old festus running the portable mill in his back yard and no doubt not paying taxes on the money hes making can probably do it for a couple bucks less. The mill no doubt has to pay its employees a competitive salary so that there family just like yours can afford to eat. You see Mary theres a lot of dishonesty here. These guys could care less about jobs or if there money is staying local or for that matter about the next guy that might buy there home or if the man milling there wood can afford to buy school clothes for his kids. All they care about is there OWN wallet period. How much money THEY can save and screw everyone else. Like I said its sounds a lot more like a bunch of democrats the more they get angry and say what they really feel. Id bet anything I have that I buy as much local and by as much made in the USA as ANYONE here. But like I said building codes aren't made up without safety reasons.

[MaryB]

Wow what country do you live in because it sure as heck isn't the USA. We DO NOT have majority rule, special interests get the money and screw the small guy on a daily basis.



everything is political. Every thing political has two sides. That's why in America the majority rule not the few with special interests. I think its kind of comical myself that the original poster would even waste time crying about it here. Does he think that for some reason bullet casters from all over the world are going to come together to fight this issue for him or is he just looking for a pity party. Id would think he would better spend the time hes wasted here doing some leg work around his area with a petition so his opinions could be spread amongst people who really are effected by this. I would guess in the less then a year hes been on this forum he hasn't drummed up many people that will REALLY help him or even could if they wanted to. I see nothing constructive here just some tears.

[Tackleberry41]

I wonder if such a ban would have less to do with the quality of the product, and more with protecting entrenched business interests who dont want people stealing their business.