M1892..sooth me..advise me

[Ragnarok]

This concerning my M1892 .44-40/.44wcf saddle-ring carbine project-gun. I had a topic earlier about rough bores and will it shoot...


Anyhow. I've got the thing wrenched back to serviceability..lots of work for a roughly handled old carbine. Looked like previous owners/gunsmiths had been skilled at shoeing horses and re-fitting wagon wheel rims...not much on gunsmithing skills or cleaning bores either! My gunsmithing skills being better...but at an amateur level and with tools not much better than a village blacksmith would possess!

The bore is un-deniably badly pitted and somewhat worn...although it does have rifling from one end to the other. I have shot some factory 200gr softpoints(j..j..jacketed bullets)...it did not do too bad with those! Shot to point of aim and seems to stabilize those bullets satisfactorily. The bore slugs at .431 and comes out rifled ok...still looks like a sewer-pipe though.

I guess I just need to try some lead bullets out of my 'new' carbine..see what it will do with lead bullets..although I'm about positive it will lead the throat.


options I've considered...#1. I have a new M94 carbine 20" .44-40 barrel. This would require a real gunsmith to fit and a new mag-tube..plus a lot of work that I've already put into the original barrel(which was shortened already and I shortened more to get rid of a pinched muzzle). This would have to wait until I have more cash to expend on my project-gun


Option #2...just shoot the thing with lead bullets and hope to get lucky. This I intend to try and do hope to get lucky and not have to clean a horribly leaded bore. I've thought about trying some .429/.430 or larger bullets.. but don't know if a bullet so large will chamber??


Option #3... cast a bore lap and lap the **** out of it!...This scares me for a variety of reasons as I've never done it before and don't want to damage what is left...still an option though


Option #4...just load and shoot copper jacketed bullets in this particular relic. At least until I can have the new barrel professionally fitted. This possibly incurring wrath from fellow forum members..but it's an option for a derelict old Winchester carbine. I am somewhat less enthusiastic about this option as I already own a couple .44-40 lever guns that shoot lead bullets just fine.


Talk to me about rotten bores and tell me how good I can make them shoot....I'm getting 'wishy-washy' and about scared to try lead bullets in this old gun...partly because I once leaded the bore bad(BAD!)on my Marlin 'Cowboy carbine' .45 Colt. I cried while I de-leaded it(wasn't that bad really...but I was pe'od)!

[TXGunNut]

Shoot it! You won't know how CB's will do until you try some.
I have a similar 92 in 32 WCF, nice enough gun but the bore is ugly. I knew about the bore when I bought it but figured it might shoot. I was wrong. I have no interest in shooting J-words so it's sitting on the back row of my safe until I come up with the funds for a re-line.

[clum553946]

I'd go with option 2 first, then try 3 when you figure you have nothing to lose.

[Ragnarok]

Hmmm..dug around in my reloading stuff looking for .44 bullets. Found a bag of 180gr .429" bullets(that actually measure about .430")

I lubed and loaded a handful of these in Remington brass just a bit ago. No-go in the Winchester chambers...just barely go in my Rossi carbine.

The only other .44 bullets I have on hand are the Hornady .427 knurled 'cowboy bullets'...these ain't .427" diameter like the box states..but are .424"/.425" diameter...soft as all git-out. Our member 30wcf recommended me a load for these in another topic here that works well in my Rossi .44-40 carbine....but the Rossi has a nice clean .427" bore. I have a hard time imagining these bullets slugging-up to the .430 bore in my Winchester 1892 rifle..and an even harder time seeing these slugging-up to the .431" bore of my 'new' Winchester carbine.


I had some .427" lead bullets(these actually measured like .428") from Graf and Sons..but used these all up in my old Winchester sporting rifle. These bullets worked great in the Winchester M1892 rifle which has a fairly clean/nice bore(.430" according to my bore-slugging).


I have a pile of Precision Cartridge new .44-40 ammo..loaded in Star-Line brass(single groove lead bullets about like my bullets from Graf and Sons). I may try these in the rotten-bored carbine and see if they lead it up or no

[pworley1]

You might try paper patching. It will improve the accuracy and condition of many poor bores.

[Ragnarok]

You might try paper patching. It will improve the accuracy and condition of many poor bores.

I've done some paper-patching with .577/.450 Martini Henry...worked pretty decent until I bought a proper bullet mold that drops .469" bullets.

I did read somewhere that paper-patching was a no-go for rough bores(my Martinis all have pretty decent bores). Not for sure just where I read that bit of info though...probably online.

Could try paper-patching those Hornady knurled bullets I suppose...they are small diameter and might take a couple wraps of thin bond-paper or cigarette-papers....hmmm...I'll consider that.

[dubber123]

Don't overlook firelapping. I have a rough bore 32-20 revolver that shot around 8" at 50 yds. it shoots about 3" at the same distance with nothing other than firelapping done. The bore looks much better, and it doesn't lead like it did.

[EDK]

Another vote for fire lapping.

Try loading the largest boolits that will chamber. Maybe hard alloy or gas checks.

[cajun shooter]

Why don't you take a look at relining the barrel. They have loads of info on this and it seems to work on problem bores like yours. I have a 1898 Krag and it's bore is black and I thinking real hard about having the bore relined.
It seems that some member on this forum posted about how nice his project rifle shot after having this work performed if IIRC. Later David

[rintinglen]

The best paths in my view are a re-lined barrel or fire-lapping. In fact, I'd try the latter regardless of what I did later. But first I'd soak the bore with a good bore cleaner like ED's Red or Hoppes and let it soak overnight, then I'd brush the heck out of it. I'd repeat this for a week or so. It is surprising how much this may clean up a dark bore. I have a Model 71 that I bought for 700 bucks because the bore looked horrible, but after cleaning thoroughly, it is hard to believe it is the same barrel. You probably won't be as lucky, but it will at the very least show you what you actually have.
After I scrubbed down to bare metal, I'd fire lap the barrel with 20-30 .429 boolits and I might give thought to polishing the chamber throat a smidge to allow bigger boolits to fit. Then I'd give her a try with the largest boolits that would chamber, cast as soft as I can manage. If that doesn't shoot well, you'll at least know you gave it your best before you start saving up your nickels for a re-line.

[Ragnarok]

I think the bigger bullets may work ok. As far as that goes..I believe my crimp was a little over-zealous 'cause the .430 bullets I used the other day are quite hard. It was a bulgy crimp and not the bullet diameter preventing chambering.

You know?...Maybe I'm obsessing over this leading issue...I fired 18 rounds of PCI commercial lead bulleted .44-40 ammo out of the ancient Winchester yesterday evening. I don't think it left much if aany lead in the bore....I saw one tiny spec on my cleaning patches.

The old carbine didn't shoot those very good though... although it does seem to stabilize them...no sideway bullet holes in the target. The sights really stink too. The gun is wearing it's original 'German silver' front blade..and I had fitted a brass fixed rear blade(stolen from a muzzle-loader kit). I should've blacked the sights before I went shooting. I had 'Bud light' can homemade sights on it when I shot it with jacketed bullets...these were better!

I gotta do something different for sights before getting excited about no accuracy...

The fire-lapping is starting to get interesting to me. I may give that a whirl. I need a better selection of bullets in bigger diameter to try.

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like you may be onto something, maybe all it needs is the right boolit....and sights. Carry on!

[Ragnarok]

Sounds like you may be onto something, maybe all it needs is the right boolit....and sights. Carry on!

Yeh...be a shame to have to go back to Bud light can sights and jacketed bullets to get this cool old carbine to shoot.

It's interesting That my Winchester 1892 sporting rifle will shoot the PCI ammo superb with it's .430 bore...my Rossi M92 carbine shoots these fine too with a .427 bore...the Winchester 1892 carbine slugs .431 and don't do so good with it...two clean bores and a rough bore...hmmmm. Maybe I should either fire-lap it or cast a lap and hand-lap it

If I was smart(and had more money) I would haul it to a proper gunsmith and have the new M94 Winchester .44-40 barrel screwed on it

[Ragnarok]

I worked on my rough old M1892 more this last Saturday. Took all the goodies out of the action(and discovered another broken part..the left cartridge guide shell-stop spring)..anyhow..I used some valve lapping compound(fairly coarse stuff) and tight patches. I just made a few passes breech to muzzle and decided it was too coarse a stuff..got scared and quit.

I was baby-sitting two toddler grand-sons..so didn't flush the bore until daughter came to get the kids. Flushed the action and bore and it really helped! I don't think I'm going to use the coarse stuff I had tried anymore...I do think I might try drill the base out of a .44-40 casing and protect the chamber and maybe find a finer grade stuff to try 'patch-lap' the bore some more...

Still torn on attempting to fire-lap...or cast a in-bore hand lap...or despite the negatives maybe patch-lap some more...or just experiment with bullets and diameters to see what shoots...or bust the barrel loose and fit the new M94 barrel.

This is certainly a fun project..however I think I'm just about in over my expertise level!!

[Wayne Smith]

Keep on it, you will increase your expertise level!

[gwpercle]

I had a sewer pipe model 95 Mauser , (7X57 with corrosive primers ) that responded well to a brass brush, wrapped tightly with 0000 steel wool and coated with J-B Bore Compound , wetted with Kroil or Marvel Mystery Oil.
I did three or four cleaning/scrubbing sessions, removing old wool , re-wrapping , adding J-b and Kroil and scrubbing until my arms got tired, Next day do it again, and again, and again. When it looks as good as you think it's going to get, stop and shoot . Try them coated boolits they might work.
The 0000 steel wool and J-B Compound is not aggressive, have to do it a lot to damage bore. More fine polish than abrasive.
My bore is still dark, but shoots surprisingly well....there were no pits just dark frosting through out.
Good luck....gary

[John Taylor]

The 94 barrel should be the same threads as the 92. you would need to cut two notches in the bottom at the chamber for the ejector. New mag tube from Wisner's and your ready to go.

[Ragnarok]

The 94 barrel should be the same threads as the 92. you would need to cut two notches in the bottom at the chamber for the ejector. New mag tube from Wisner's and your ready to go.

Yeh I have seen the need for ejector notches...and had been considering a topic in the gunsmithing or barrels sub-forum concerning the barrel-thread compatability. The new M94 barrel I have is fully chambered..has all the cross-notches(for the m94 band screws) and new style front sight base. It's a beautiful barrel!

Just how hard do you think it would be to 'un-screw' the old barrel?...The one that's been on the 1892 since 1906!?

[w30wcf]

If you firewall the base of the cast bullet, you might be surprised on how well it might shoot. You can do that by using PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer). If you have some 2400 or 4227 ( nothing faster!) try 16 of the former or 18 gr of the later then fill the rest of the case with PSB to about 3/4 of the way up the case neck, then seat the bullet compressing the PSB.

You can even use undersized bullets.

A fellow had a .45-60 original 1875 Winchester which had the worst barrel I had ever seen. In fact fired cases needed to be removed with a cleaning rod since they expanded into slight depressions caused by rust.

Anyway, cast bullet accuracy was hopeless with bullets key holing. We added PSB and what a difference that made! No more keyholes and the rifle began shooting respectable groups.

w30wcf