Contender Pistol cast bullets

[Jim..47]

The pistol is chambered for 30/30 Win. Has a 15 inch barrel. The bullet is a Lyman #311291 which is supposed to drop a 170 Gr. round nose bullet. My bullets are dropping at 182.3 grains without gas check or grease. Adding the gas check n grease takes them up to 192.3 grains. Drops bullets at .308-.309. Using straight wheel weights. No leading from 3 shots at all.

My question is this. Since my bullets are dropping at almost 12 1/2 grains heavier then listed what load/charge should I be using? Also, isn't it odd for a mold to drop bullets that much heavier then its listed for?

The biggest bullet Lyman's cast bullet handbook (Third edition) lists is a 311407 and lists at 173 grains.

I shot 3 cartridges with R7 at 28 grains which is the heaviest load for that powder. The primers were smashed pretty good but no signs of pressure on the brass, and recoil was moderate.

Obviously I need to drop the charge at least 2 grains but haven't loaded anymore yet.

One more question for now. This is of course a steel mold. Is there any way I can make it to drop semi-wad cutters or at least some mepplate?

[Tatume]

Moderate your charge and then work up carefully. The Contender should not exhibit any stickiness on opening. If it is hard to work the lever, tip up the barrel, or extract the empty, the load is too hot for the Contender. The Contender should always open easily and extract easily.

The Lee C309-170-F is extremely accurate in my guns and has a nice meplat. Others have reported that the C309-150-F is also very accurate, and should give increased velocity (I've not tried it, yet). These are $21 molds that work well, produce very accurate bullets, and will last a lifetime. Why risk your nice Lyman mold with modifications when these are available?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/574963/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c309-170-f-30-caliber-309-diameter-170-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/720790/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c309-150-f-30-caliber-309-diameter-150-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

[mdi]

Your first three loads were the max. listed loads? With over weight bullets? Not a real good idea. It's OK to use data for a slightly lighter bullet if you start at the starting load...

[bhn22]

The 311291 has been a staple of 30 cal. hunting since it's inception. If you want a flat point design, consider 311041 or RCBS 30-180 FP. I have killed deer with 311291 in 30/30s, and also .307s, and bullet performance has never been an issue for me. As for loading data, just use data for 180 gr bullets, and do your normal load development from there. Happily, jacketed bullet data for the 30/30 is usable with cast bullets. Cast bullets just go faster.

[Jim..47]

I guess I need to put my history and experience in my profile or somewhere so that you can all read it.

My Contender is not new. Its about 35 years old or so, and I've cast 75% of the bullets that I've shot out of it, which is thousands and thousands. I know the load I posted above is hot, I already said that. I have shot many other hot loads (or listed as max.) out of it, but this is almost the first time its showed that much pressure, and no it wasn't the first charge I shot. I'm well aware of safety practices but thanks again for your advice.

I was simply looking for someone who may have shot that bullet before. It was the first time I have ever used R7 for 30/30, but I was out of W748 and there was no other listing for powders I normally use, odd because I have a fair selection.

I was not aware that you could use jacketed bullet data for cast bullets. Is this true for all calibers and guns. Just sounds odd. Why do they always have a separate listing for cast bullets, is to list a recommended top velocity?

BHN22, how do you kill deer sized game with a round nose? Did you get any expansion? Or were using a soft nose so it would expand. I have never dabbled in making a dual mix bullet. Don't you have to pour them both while the first one is still molten?I had never heard that, but I haven't tried it either. Thanks for the offerings of those other bullet molds. That's the reason I was wanting a flat point.

Also, I have never heard that cast bullets are faster then jacketed with same charge. Its been a long time since I've chronographed anything out of the Contender till yesterday.

By the way, I didn't mention that I had no leading from shooting 2200fps. I was quite surprised at that, so I guess my new lube formula is getting better. I want to try shooting some other calibers that have a higher velocity to see just how fast I can go.

One last thing, I've read that some big game hunters have used hard cast bullet with a big mepplate and they worked well simply because the sharp edges of the mepplate cut so well. Does that sound right?

Thanks guys. :smile:

[cbrick]

Using jacketed data for cast in the 30-30 is pretty common. Most all max jacketed 30-30 loads are well within the realm of useable cast loads. No, that's not true of all calibers. Many jacketed cartridges can go upwards of 3000 fps and 50-60000 PSI, obviously not for cast. The 30-30 even when run hot is well within realistic cast ballistics/pressures/velocities. The 30-30 is a great cast cartridge and easy to work up loads for. I mostly only use jacketed load data for all of my handgun loads, just match the alloy to the load.

In most instances you'll get higher velocity from cast using the same data (load). It takes less pressure to engrave cast and push it down the bore. Add to that the cast bullet is lubed and the jacketed isn't. It means a bit higher velocity for equal bullet weight.

Rick

[Jim..47]

Thanks for that info Rick. Very interesting indeed, but makes sense.

[Hickok]

Jim, I believe most Lyman molds state cast boolit weight when using Lyman #2 alloy or linotype, depending on the caliber. Look in the Lyman reloading manual and it will state the alloy and weight with that boolit.

Wheel weight usually cast heavier.

[bhn22]

Blunt roundnose bullets like 311291 will expand a bit on medium game if you balance the alloy to your actual velocities. And, as mentioned before, cast bullets have less resistance going down the bore, so velocities can be higher. There's a lot of good loading data available for the 30/30 in Contenders. I had one, and used the faster rifle powders to get the desired velocities, RX7 has always been a standard powder for me. It's my primary 223 Rem. powder. IMR 4198, 3031, and others of that class work well too. I don't mess with dual alloy bullets, or bullets with annealed noses. For the velocities you're working with, plain wheelweights with a few percent of tin added should work well for you. Play with it a bit during the off season here. It really works quite well.

[JohnH]

Off topic... Was at a public range about 1 1/2 years ago. I was shooting my 44 Contender off hand at a Clorox bottle which had been left on the berm. Young guy, early 20's asks me what I'm shooting. I said a 44. He said no, the gun, what is that. A contender I replied, to which he said he'd never heard of one. It's been years since I've seen one on a gun rag cover, still farther back when men like Bob Milek wrote regular feature articles on them and the chamberings for them. The 30-30 Contender barrel killed the 30 Herrett. I am a dinosaur... Back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

[Jim..47]

Blunt roundnose bullets like 311291 will expand a bit on medium game if you balance the alloy to your actual velocities. And, as mentioned before, cast bullets have less resistance going down the bore, so velocities can be higher. There's a lot of good loading data available for the 30/30 in Contenders. I had one, and used the faster rifle powders to get the desired velocities, RX7 has always been a standard powder for me. It's my primary 223 Rem. powder. IMR 4198, 3031, and others of that class work well too. I don't mess with dual alloy bullets, or bullets with annealed noses. For the velocities you're working with, plain wheelweights with a few percent of tin added should work well for you. Play with it a bit during the off season here. It really works quite well.

bhn22, I appreciate you sharing that with me. How do I go about balancing my alloy with my velocity, and do I need to drop my velocity to do that? I may be using more RX7 myself. I never really liked W748 as it reaches high pressure before it meets the velocity I want, I'm talking about jacketed bullets here, which I just don't use much anymore.

Another question for you if you are willing. How fast can guys shoots .243 Rem. cast bullets and what do they have to do to get higher velocity. Gas checks I'm sure, but what about the metal and alloys?

[bhn22]

If you're planning on running at normal 30-30ish velocities, wheelweights with about 2% tin should fit the bill. I wouldn't go much harder myself because if you make the bullets too hard, they could fragment on impact. My Lyman "Pistol and Revolver Reloading Handbook" shows 1936 FPS for a 14 in. Contender using a max load of RX7 using the 311291 bullet. Expect roughly 1400 FPS at 100 yards & 1250 - 1300 FPS at 150. That's still in the effective range of WW/Tin alloys that have NOT been water dropped to increase hardness. I would still take the shot. I do understand your reservations about a roundnose bullet, but 311291 did work well for me, and was more accurate than my 30-180-FN from RCBS. I too have reservations about relying on expansion of cast bullets, but I've also had success with them too. I have never recovered a cast bullet from game, so I honestly don't know how much expansion, if any, I got. I only know that they worked well. I'd suggest some experimentation during the upcoming "off" season to verify results. I would be more inclined to expect expansion with a properly balanced cast bullet, than I would with an equivalent weight jacketed bullet.

[Jim..47]

Thanks bhn22, you've convinced me. I will be testing them too once I get all spring chores done and a little early season crappie fishing.

[bhn22]

If it doesn't work to your satisfaction, go to plan "B". I think you'll like what you see.

[leadman]

Jim, high velocity that equals jacketed can be obtained but in my experience it takes a very hard heat treated alloy, very good lube, a boolit that fits the throat well and a powder on the slow side for the cartridge. I have found that it takes some experimenting with each gun as what works in one may not work in another gun shooting the same cartridge.
I have shot the Lee "Bator" 22 caliber boolit in my Contender with 23" bull barrel chambered in 223 Rem to 3,619 fps average with no leading. Accuracy was about 2.5 moa at 100 yards. This gun shoots jacketed into 1/2" groups most of the time at 100 yards.
There is a thread posted on this site in which members are working on the high velocity goal with much good info in it.

The 30-30 is an excellent choice for cast as has been mentioned as jacketed velocity is normally easily obtained.

[CWME]

I have nothing of value to add other than to say thanks for reminding me that I have a 30-30 contender in the safe to play with. I can't remember the loads but the 311291 shot well for me. Had a lot of fun with the contender before the kids came. Will need to dig it out and fire it up again here soon.

[Jim..47]

Jim, high velocity that equals jacketed can be obtained but in my experience it takes a very hard heat treated alloy, very good lube, a boolit that fits the throat well and a powder on the slow side for the cartridge. I have found that it takes some experimenting with each gun as what works in one may not work in another gun shooting the same cartridge.
I have shot the Lee "Bator" 22 caliber boolit in my Contender with 23" bull barrel chambered in 223 Rem to 3,619 fps average with no leading. Accuracy was about 2.5 moa at 100 yards. This gun shoots jacketed into 1/2" groups most of the time at 100 yards.
There is a thread posted on this site in which members are working on the high velocity goal with much good info in it.

The 30-30 is an excellent choice for cast as has been mentioned as jacketed velocity is normally easily obtained.

Yeah I'm quite aware of at least some of the challenges of meeting extremely high velocity ie 3600fps, But with out great accuracy that won't be my goal. I want an effective bullet, but more importantly an accurate one.

Thanks for the info on your Contender rifle and reaching that high velocity, I may try it in the future but only for punching paper, which I like to do.

May I ask what kind of gas checks do you use and where do you get them from. I've read that gas checks punched from soda cans are very limited in their effectiveness.

[Jim..47]

I have nothing of value to add other than to say thanks for reminding me that I have a 30-30 contender in the safe to play with. I can't remember the loads but the 311291 shot well for me. Had a lot of fun with the contender before the kids came. Will need to dig it out and fire it up again here soon.

Agreed, I've had a lot of fun with my Contender pistol. Its the original unaltered one. I wished I had a few more barrels for it that would fit as it is.

[JohnH]

Agreed, I've had a lot of fun with my Contender pistol. Its the original unaltered one. I wished I had a few more barrels for it that would fit as it is. My Contender is in the same vintage era as yours. All the new barrels will fit, the alteration, least as I understand it, is to simply make the action easier opening. The G2 Contender action was given the same lock work treatment as the Encore, allowing the hammer to be lowered from the cocked position and then recocking without having to open the gun to reset the lock work, all barrels made for Contenders, be they old model or G2's interchange. Also, if you haven't, check out www.gunbroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com) there are almost always a page or two of Contender barrels for sale, lots of older stuff too. Do a search on "Contender Barrel" there, and you'll browse for a couple hours at least.

[bhn22]

There is a huge difference between a 3600(?) FPS 223, and a 2300 FPS 30-30.