PDA

View Full Version : Pressure Differences Between Hodgdon Triple Seven's ffg vs. fffg



Southern Shooter
01-27-2015, 11:21 AM
Does anyone know what are the pressure differences are between Hodgdon Triple Seven's ffg and fffg?? Does anyone know what pressures these two generate, at all?? This would be from a .45 Colt with a 265 grain boolit.

I am just trying to understand why the fffg version is not supposed to be used in cartridges.

Thanks

Don McDowell
01-27-2015, 11:57 AM
I am just trying to understand why the fffg version is not supposed to be used in cartridges.

Thanks

For answers beyond what Hogdons has to say here.
Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads. *See WARNINGS below.

You would be well advised to call them and ask.

Southern Shooter
01-27-2015, 12:00 PM
I did call them. They were very polite. The answer I received was just that they did not like the pressures when using fffg in cartridges. But, that does not satisfy my curiousity. I am looking for more than generic answers. What are the numbers? Why? What happened? What were the conditions?, etc.

Don McDowell
01-27-2015, 12:11 PM
The people that make the stuff tell you not to do it, yet you still don't want to take their answer?? Maybe it's best you take up tennis or some such before you end up hurting yourself or worse some innocent bystander because " that does not satisfy my curiousity".

Southern Shooter
01-27-2015, 12:15 PM
Be polite and give me more credit than that. I am considerate of those around me when I shoot. And, curiousity does not mean someone is going to do something other than ask lots of question...or, do you go blindly on what is always told to you. Anyway, people are far more in danger when I am swinging a tennis racquet than when I am at the range. ;)

Don McDowell
01-27-2015, 02:17 PM
Well maybe if Hogdons telling you they didn't like the pressure spikes wasn't good enough, you should invest in the RSI pressure trace system and see if you see things that might be cause for concern... Good lord do you also question Alliant as to why you can't just use enough Bullseye to just touch the bullet base?

Southern Shooter
01-27-2015, 02:18 PM
Gee, DM...having a rough day in Wyoming? And, it has been nice meeting you, too. :-P It is a terrible plight...wanting to learn the whys of the world.

Oh, and yes, Alliant has answered a lot of questions for me...Lee Precision has...Tom at Accurate Molds has...John Linebaugh has...etc.. And, all answers were shared with patience and kindness. I like asking questions and learning. :smile:

Lead pot
01-27-2015, 05:22 PM
Don.

Some people ask questions and get answers then argue because they want a reason to use or do it anyway. Even when the manufacturer warns them not to use or do it they still look for someone to tell them that it's ok. Then they have a reason to lay the blame on them when the damage is done.
Then you get people that say I been doing it for years with out a problem. Some come up with ways that makes me wonder if they ever did lower a loading press handle in their life or even use black powder or shoot a black powder gun.

Don McDowell
01-27-2015, 06:12 PM
Yup..

John Boy
01-27-2015, 07:17 PM
The answer I received was just that they did not like the pressures when using fffg in cartridges. But, that does not satisfy my curiousity. I am looking for more than generic answers. What are the numbers? Why? What happened? What were the conditions?, etc.
SS, RSI system will give you all you need to know about PSI's ... http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm ... $800 for the package
All I know about Triple Seven FFg is I used it twice: a 30-30 Hodgdon approved load in 2001 and a 45-70 load in 2004. Both about ripped my face off from felt recoil. That was enough for me using this powder

Southern Shooter
01-27-2015, 08:08 PM
Lead Pot, I am not sure if you are referring to me, but I have not been argumetative. Nor, am I looking to justify using the powder when it is clearly not a good idea. I just wanted to learn from people who know more than me. I will never apologize for asking questions to learn and not being satisfied with a brush-off answer.

Where is the civility that drew me to this site?

cajun shooter
01-28-2015, 01:19 PM
It's still here Southern Shooter, but in this case you are barking up the wrong tree. If you want something beyond what you received from the makers of the powder, then your next stop is a testing lab that does pressure testing of gun loads.
Don is a very nice man who has years of time behind the butt of rifles that shoot the real BP and not some sub powder made to imitate.
I myself have never understood why persons ask about subs on a BP forum anyway. They have nothing in common other than the subs have a chemical added to make "FAKE SMOKE" Why don't you ask the staff to open sub powder section. That way you would be with the group that has like values in your shooting choice. Why come to a BP forum and then chastise the member who took time to answer your posting? Take Care Fairshake

Southern Shooter
01-28-2015, 02:40 PM
Cajun,
I agree. I debated where to go with this in the first place. It seems like such a misfit powder.

I do want express my gratitude for this site. It is a great teaching source and a good place to meet swell folks.

hylander
01-29-2015, 01:50 PM
I can't answer the Op's original question.
However I would like to comment on the "why ask about subs in a BP forum".
I shoot almost only Subs, mostly 777.
One reason is Real Black is Very hard to come by around here, I also have other reasons.
Just because someone shoots subs once in awhile does not make them an outcast.
There are no Forums that I know of dedicated to subs, so that leaves a person with questions on subs
to ask questions in the BP forum.
There are a lot of BP shooters that also shoot subs, so sub shooters look for answers here.
In reading the Op's post's it is pretty clear that he is just looking for info to learn, not to get an answer to justify some agenda.
I to like to learn the why's and not just settle for an answer "Because I said so".
Again not because I have an agenda, I just want to know the why's.

montana_charlie
01-29-2015, 02:39 PM
In reading the Op's post's it is pretty clear that he is just looking for info to learn, not to get an answer to justify some agenda.
This 'search for knowledge' about fffg Triple 7 has turned into somewhat of a saga that covers (at least) three separate threads.
He wants to use fffg in a ffg application.

Why does he want to? Perhaps something from one of the other threads sheds light on that.

When the drought of powders was in full swing creativity had to be used. And, the store near my home came into a load of Triple Seven and I bought 4 lbs. of it to experiment with.
See, he made a mistake when he bought that granulation and now he wants it to stop being a mistake.






I to like to learn the why's and not just settle for an answer "Because I said so".
Again not because I have an agenda, I just want to know the why's.
If you read all of the associated threads you will find that there is no "I" who is telling him not to use fffg in a cartridge.
The manufacturer says it should not be done, and they didn't back off from that when he contacted them.

I did call them. They were very polite. The answer I received was just that they did not like the pressures when using fffg in cartridges. But, that does not satisfy my curiousity. I am looking for more than generic answers. What are the numbers? Why? What happened? What were the conditions?, etc.

As you can see, he is determined to find somebody who will agree with him that it's okay to use the fffg in his cartridges.

So far, I don't see you mentioning any experience in that area ... experience that refutes the manufacturer.

I don't either so I have not offered any advice ... but I am tempted to tell him to strap a gun or two to some tires and use a long string to see if they blow up.

CM

Lead Fred
01-29-2015, 02:40 PM
I tired just about every sub in the flinter and the 45/70.
None worked worth a darn, and no where as good as holy black.

Southern Shooter
01-29-2015, 02:45 PM
Montana Charlie,
I don't, nor would anyone else, appreciate the condescending attitude. In stead of bashing me and talking about me in the third-person for a persistent question, why not ask what my line of thinking is so we can connect and I can be taught something other than to accept a brush-off response.

Seriously...drop it. Please.

I am a bit surprised at the hostile response and assumptions made for asking a question.
I am just trying to understand why the fffg version is not supposed to be used in cartridges. This was a sincere request to be taught by people who are interested in sharing their knowledge and not beating up someone. I like to understand beyond the "because I said so" answers. Teach me some chemistry, physics...share some experiences. Or, admit that the answer is not known. But, heck fire, stop the negativity.

FYI:
I was fortunate to be able to make an equal swap, this week. My 3 lbs of FFFg to local muzzle loader for 3 lbs of FFg.

I am done with this. Time to move on to another topic.

Thank you

Don McDowell
01-29-2015, 06:34 PM
One reason is Real Black is Very hard to come by around here, I also have other reasons.

Where is it you live? FedEx, and UPS deliver just about everywhere inside the lower 48, and Powder Inc, Grafs, Buffalo Arms and a whole host of other vendors will send you from 5-50 lbs per order...

cajun shooter
01-30-2015, 05:07 PM
Don, I was just about to ask Hylander if he had a mailing address and to tell him that I've heard that statement from every person I've ever asked about sub use.
When I was a Police Officer, the common answer to , How many drinks have you had tonight Sir, was always 2. We would make bets on how fast they said two.
The most common answer to not shooting BP is that it's hard to purchase in my area as no one sells it.
You gave my standard answer. Later David

PS If y'all read all the postings by those who run things, you will find where it covers this very subject. If they have enough request about having a new subject matter, they will address it. It does not say they will start one but it will be looked at.

hylander
01-31-2015, 01:25 AM
I live in northern California.
There is one shop about 25 miles away that sells real black, however his prices are to high.
I don't shoot enough to buy bulk to make it worth paying for shipping and hazmat.
Also I'm pretty sure here you are only allowed #1 of real black in your house.

Don McDowell
01-31-2015, 01:46 AM
5 lbs of goex is 25$ (125) a lb delivered to your door. That's not a lot of powder.
Northern California is full of bpcr shooters that need more than one pound of powder just to load enough to shoot a days match..

RPRNY
01-31-2015, 03:24 AM
T7 is not Black Powder. Is is a substitute for black powder and it substitutes at @ 15% more powerful than black powder equivalent. So, 20 grs of FFFg T7 is equivalent to 23grs FFFg Holy Black. T7 FFFg is a very regular and dense grain compared to Holy Black. Thus, it will compress more readily. 20 grs of T7 FFFg is equivalent to 23 grs of Holy Black and will readily compress to the equivalent of less than 20 grs Holy Black. When heavily compressed, T7 FFFg delivers pressure spikes.

When loading cartridge, as with Holy Black, air space between T7 and bullet base is bad. It will generally take more T7 FFFg to fill a given volume of space than it will of FFFg Holy Black. 35 grs of T7 will fill less space than 35 grs Holy Black but is the equivalent of 40 grs Holy Black. 40 grs FFFg black powder was the original load in the 45 long Colt. By 1875 that had backed down towards 35 grs because it was awfully heavy.

In a cartridge, one is likely to over load T7 FFFg, or over-compress it. Both unsafe according to Hodgdon. If one does neither, FFFg T7 has a propensity to compact. This could create an airspace between bullet and powder. That is deemed bad.

Thus, T7 FFFg in cartridges is dangerous for several reasons. So, Hodgdon's' s law firm wants that made very clear.

oldred
01-31-2015, 05:50 AM
5 lbs of goex is 25$ (125) a lb delivered to your door. That's not a lot of powder.
Northern California is full of bpcr shooters that need more than one pound of powder just to load enough to shoot a days match..


I just in the last couple of weeks pointed out this very same thing to a fella who brought his ML to my shop to have a stuck breechplug removed (we wound up drilling the dang thing out!) and he told me he shoots Pyrodex exclusively. When I explained why BP was a lot better he told me that he would love to shoot BP but can't find it anywhere, pointing out that ordering it was simple enough he came back with the usual reply that he would have to buy too much at a time. I once thought the same thing but shooting the subs was so unappealing to me I went ahead and ordered a minimum order, I was surprised at how soon it was time to reorder but after looking at how often I would have been buying it a pound at a time I shouldn't have been surprised. BP will last FOREVER! So the people who think they will only be buying a pound or so each season and it's so convenient to pick up at Walmart just buy the minimum order and you won't have to buy powder again for years! I don't understand why someone would pay hundreds of dollars for a firearm but balk at spending a bit over a hundred for ammo, especially when they will still be spending the same amount but just spread out over time.

BTW, I gave that fella a half can of Goex FFG so he could try the real McCoy and that weekend he called me back and he now wants to get on the share list for our next order!

Don McDowell
01-31-2015, 12:09 PM
oldred, that's an excellent example.

hylander
01-31-2015, 01:34 PM
Here you are only allowed #1 of real black in your home.
So I can't legally have any more at one time.
I may see if I have a few guys here that want to split up an order.

montana_charlie
01-31-2015, 03:28 PM
Here you are only allowed #1 of real black in your home.
If a guy has a flintlock rifle with a can of fffg for his main charge, and a can of ffffg for priming, he is a criminal.

I find that astonishing ...

CM

dtknowles
01-31-2015, 06:05 PM
I just in the last couple of weeks pointed out this very same thing to a fella who brought his ML to my shop to have a stuck breechplug removed (we wound up drilling the dang thing out!) and he told me he shoots Pyrodex exclusively. When I explained why BP was a lot better he told me that he would love to shoot BP but can't find it anywhere, pointing out that ordering it was simple enough he came back with the usual reply that he would have to buy too much at a time. I once thought the same thing but shooting the subs was so unappealing to me I went ahead and ordered a minimum order, I was surprised at how soon it was time to reorder but after looking at how often I would have been buying it a pound at a time I shouldn't have been surprised. BP will last FOREVER! So the people who think they will only be buying a pound or so each season and it's so convenient to pick up at Walmart just buy the minimum order and you won't have to buy powder again for years! I don't understand why someone would pay hundreds of dollars for a firearm but balk at spending a bit over a hundred for ammo, especially when they will still be spending the same amount but just spread out over time.

BTW, I gave that fella a half can of Goex FFG so he could try the real McCoy and that weekend he called me back and he now wants to get on the share list for our next order!

Please explain again why Black Powder is a lot better than Subs. Are you blaming Pryodex for his stuck breach plug? I have part of two cans of BP(2f and 3f) and part of a can of Pryodex and a whole can of 777. That will last me for years. As far as being frugal about ammo after spending hundreds on a Gun. If I am careful about my gun purchases I can recoup my investment and maybe even make a little if I sell it. What I spend on ammo is usually gone with no recovery. I only have one powder that I have 5 pounds or more of and that is because I just bought an 8 pound jug. I think it is only the third time I have bought a large quantity of a single powder. I had an 8 pound jug of Green Dot (down to a couple pounds) and before that it was an 8 pound jug of 231 (down to a pound or so). Each lasted a decade. I like shooting a cap and ball revolver or a Hawken or such every once in a while but some years I don't shoot either if I am busy with other shooting interests. Anyone think that 3f 777 would not be an excellent powder to use in my Ruger Old Army. I can only load and shoot it so fast so that jug should last quite a while once I get around to breaking it out. I certainly will run out of caps first, anyone know were to get a deal on them?

Tim

Nobade
01-31-2015, 06:33 PM
Heck, if I take the kids and friends out to shoot the Old Army I can go through a pound of powder in an afternoon. That's only 175 shots after all. And this is one reason why I started making my own.... it's about $3/lb to make.

I just got back from Sportsman's Warehouse. A pound of Pyrodex is $27, pound of T7 is $32 and 10 oz of Blackhorn is $37 all plus tax. Ouch! Old "E" is $16 including shipping and haz mat if you buy a case, and if you're not in Arkansas there's no tax. Big difference if you shoot a lot.

-Nobade

dtknowles
01-31-2015, 06:55 PM
Heck, if I take the kids and friends out to shoot the Old Army I can go through a pound of powder in an afternoon. That's only 175 shots after all. And this is one reason why I started making my own.... it's about $3/lb to make.

I just got back from Sportsman's Warehouse. A pound of Pyrodex is $27, pound of T7 is $32 and 10 oz of Blackhorn is $37 all plus tax. Ouch! Old "E" is $16 including shipping and haz mat if you buy a case, and if you're not in Arkansas there's no tax. Big difference if you shoot a lot.

-Nobade

See, what works for one person does not work for another. If I take the Old Army out, I will be shooting by myself and will have other guns that I will shoot as well. I doubt I would shoot 50 rounds thru it in a single trip to the range more like 30. I bought the jug of 777 more than 5 years ago (I paid less than $20 for each jugs/cans of BP and Subs I have purchased) and it is still unopened. I have had the Old Army at the range just a couple times right after I bought it. It shot nice, I am glad I bought it and I want to have supplies to shoot it again if I get the urge but one pound of powder is enough. Making my own powder might be interesting but I expect there would be a learning curve and much testing required. I have enough projects without adding another.

The reason I don't order bunch of BP is that I just don't want the have that much more powder around, a case would probably last me the rest of my life. I have a bunch of smokeless powder because I overreacted to the chicken littles around this forum and bought too much powder, it will take me decades to use what I have. I shoot almost every week for a couple hours but I don't go thru a lot of ammo. Lately I have been shooting mostly .22 Hornet, 30 BR and .22 LR all with lead bullets. The .22 Hornet Green Dot loads are more than 2000 rounds per pound of power and the BLC2 loads for the 30 BR are like 200 per pound. I used to buy a new jug of powder when my jugs were getting low or when I saw a good deal like the 8 pound jug of Green Dot. I started using it in everything is was good for, like 9 x 19, midrange loads for .357 mag. cast loads for 30-30, 7.62 x 25 and the .22 Hornet. 10 years later I still have a couple pounds left.

Tim



Tim

country gent
01-31-2015, 08:18 PM
In cap and ball revolvers and pistols a pound of powder does last longer and buying a pound or two is a supply. When loading for the rifle cartridges that same pound isnt near the supply you think it is. In my 45-90 a pound of powder is about 80 rounds. The 45-80 is just over 100 rds and the 40-65 is around 130 or so. When you get into the bigger rounds it goes even faster. A 50-120 or 140 or a 45-120 will eat powder at an alarming rate. If you can get enough friends club embers together you can put together an order min or maybe even a level for the price breaks. Our local club does this occassionaly with reloading components for trap and skeet, rifle and pistol components. A large order ad decent breaks on prices doing this.

Gunlaker
01-31-2015, 09:06 PM
Yeah we all have different needs for sure. I've never tried a substitute because I can get the real thing.

A pound of black powder can last me more than a month if I'm shooting my little .32-40's and loading at the bench ( which really slows things down ). On the other hand, with the .45-90, or .45-110's a pound goes away in a very short period of time :-).

Chris.

dtknowles
01-31-2015, 09:51 PM
I see a lot of people suggest splitting a shipment of powder with a group. That is easy if someone else does the work. Nobody ever has asked me if I would like to get in on a group buy for Powder of any kind. There are a few guys that shoot at the same range that I know by name and talk to when we are there together. I have never seen them shoot anything with black powder. I know four guys from work that I have gone with and I know that one has a Ruger Old Army and I bought two basket case side lock muzzle loaders off him when I got a couple thousand primers from him as I was short and he really stocked up in the Clinton scare (this deal was during the Bush years). We have not shot together in a long time. Putting together a group buy would be so much effort that I would just buy the powder myself if I wanted it that bad. Seeing some BP Sub on the shelf for a reasonable price while shopping for other stuff can cause me to make an impulse buy, that's how I got the 777 and I am not sorry. I cleaned up and assembled (yes they were true basket cases, box of parts) those basket case Muzzle Loaders, tested them and took them to the range a couple times shot them with the powder I had (Goex 2f and 3f) they are in the safe now and waiting for their turn again.

Tim

country gent
01-31-2015, 10:09 PM
A lot of gunshops you have to ask for black powder its not on display

oldred
02-01-2015, 10:23 AM
Please explain again why Black Powder is a lot better than Subs. Are you blaming Pryodex for his stuck breach plug? I have part of two cans of BP(2f and 3f) and part of a can of Pryodex and a whole can of 777. That will last me for years. As far as being frugal about ammo after spending hundreds on a Gun. If I am careful about my gun purchases I can recoup my investment and maybe even make a little if I sell it. What I spend on ammo is usually gone with no recovery. I only have one powder that I have 5 pounds or more of and that is because I just bought an 8 pound jug. I think it is only the third time I have bought a large quantity of a single powder. I had an 8 pound jug of Green Dot (down to a couple pounds) and before that it was an 8 pound jug of 231 (down to a pound or so). Each lasted a decade. I like shooting a cap and ball revolver or a Hawken or such every once in a while but some years I don't shoot either if I am busy with other shooting interests. Anyone think that 3f 777 would not be an excellent powder to use in my Ruger Old Army. I can only load and shoot it so fast so that jug should last quite a while once I get around to breaking it out. I certainly will run out of caps first, anyone know were to get a deal on them?

Tim


Where did I even hint that I was blaming the Pyodex for the breech plug?? As far as BP being better well we could go on for pages over that so let's just say that I should have said that "In my opinion" BP is a lot better and just leave it at that! As far as someone having part of 2 cans of BP and a whole can of a sub with that being enough to last for years then yes indeed if someone doesn't shoot anymore than that then it makes a lot of sense to just buy one of the subs at Walmart and I have agreed several times in the past with those folks that it probably is too much trouble and expense to order real BP.

I feel kind of sorry for those who can only shoot a pound or so of powder a year but of course as long as they have fun doing so it don't matter much what kind of powder they are using!

ascast
02-01-2015, 11:45 AM
SS - NO, no-one knows for sure, not even the folks that make it. I'd guess something happened or was indicated could happen, and they could not figure out how, or why, so they cover their backside with warnings. It is not likely they will tell YOU anything over the phone about an in house , proprietary issue.
good question
be safe

Lead pot
02-01-2015, 12:02 PM
There is a guy that is a shooter at our range mostly shooting his .22 hornet and hand gun. Every fall a week or so before Deer season he comes with a nice .54 TC Renegade and takes a few shots to check his sights and puts the rifle back in the case and shoots the .22 Hornet for the rest of the time.
A couple years ago I saw him just before the season with a shot gun setting the scope for 100 yards. I walked over and talked to him and I asked where is the TC? not using it this year? he said I made a lamp out of it. why I asked, well last year after I got the deer and when I got home I put a quick patch down the bore and oiled it and went up for supper. I forgot to do a good cleaning before putting it in the closet. Well the bore rusted so bad that it felt like I had sand paper in it. I scrubbed it for an hour and it would still pull the patch off my cleaning rod jag so I used steel wool and penetrating oil and it did get better but it just would not shoot like it did.
He said I used to use DuPont but I wanted to try some of this new Pyrodex that everyone is talking about.

dtknowles
02-01-2015, 12:23 PM
I have agreed several times in the past with those folks that it probably is too much trouble that it probably is too much trouble and expense to order real BP.

I feel kind of sorry for those who can only shoot a pound or so of powder a year but of course as long as they have fun doing so it don't matter much what kind of powder they are using!

Ordering a case of BP online is barely any trouble or expense for me. Having 4 pounds of Black Powder that I may never use seems foolish. "Kind of feel sorry" that would be like me saying that "I kind of feel sorry for people who have to shoot rifles of ancient design using an obsolete propellant." I shoot many pounds of powder every year, just not Black Powder. The .22 Hornet and 30 BR may sip propellant but the 30-06 and 25 Krag Ackley Improved burn it at a much higher rate, not to mention all the other rifles I have in the safe. Save your pity for starving children in Africa. Yeah, I know your chosen minor firearm pursuit is superior to all others! anyone not shooting Black Powder is just a plebe.

Tim

Don McDowell
02-01-2015, 01:03 PM
Not sure of anybody that thinks folks that don't shoot black is just a plebe.
But I am pretty sure the folks wonder if a person doesn't shoot black then other than having some need for attention when they post in a black powder forum?

dtknowles
02-01-2015, 01:28 PM
Not sure of anybody that thinks folks that don't shoot black is just a plebe.
But I am pretty sure the folks wonder if a person doesn't shoot black then other than having some need for attention when they post in a black powder forum?

How much Black Powder does one have to shoot to qualify to post here. I shoot some Black Powder most years, last year it was probably around 4000 grains not counting Subs but that is because I won't shoot anything but black in my 450 BPE double rifle and I shot a couple boxes of reloads in it. Not sure I will shoot it this year, I have my loads developed and sitting on the shelf. That is why I am low on BP and have been following threads on BP and Subs and where to get BP. If I don't find some at a gun show soon I might have to order a case even though a pound would be enough.

Tim

Don McDowell
02-01-2015, 02:40 PM
You likely won't find any blackpowder at a Gunshow. Why order a case, when you can get 5 lbs? Why not just call over to Doyline and ask them where the closest place you can buy a pound of powder over the counter is?

oldred
02-01-2015, 04:21 PM
Ordering a case of BP online is barely any trouble or expense for me. Having 4 pounds of Black Powder that I may never use seems foolish. "Kind of feel sorry" that would be like me saying that "I kind of feel sorry for people who have to shoot rifles of ancient design using an obsolete propellant." I shoot many pounds of powder every year, just not Black Powder. The .22 Hornet and 30 BR may sip propellant but the 30-06 and 25 Krag Ackley Improved burn it at a much higher rate, not to mention all the other rifles I have in the safe. Save your pity for starving children in Africa. Yeah, I know your chosen minor firearm pursuit is superior to all others! anyone not shooting Black Powder is just a plebe.

Tim


Well I guess I just can't say anything right! When I said I kind of felt sorry for someone who only shoots a pound or so of powder a year I honestly meant I just felt sorry for those folks who don't get the chance, for whatever reason, to shoot a lot more than that and for all the fun they are missing. I never at all meant it as a smart@%% remark and I honestly TRIED to agree that someone who only shoots a pound or so a year probably shouldn't order more powder than they might use for many years! Apparently, just like that breech plug/pyrodex connection that never even occurred to me until you mentioned it, I suppose you will just read into whatever I say to mean whatever it is you want. Let's just drop it, ok?

Springfield
02-01-2015, 04:23 PM
For what it is worth, hylander is right in that in California you are only allowed to have 1 lb at a time. Since this is a ridiculous and never enforced law we all just have to ignore it. The shops rarely carry it as the storage rules are very tough to follow and make it totally not profitable for them. I just split an order with other BP shooters. In the last 8 years I have asked 3 firefighters, who should know, how much Blackpowder I am allowed to have, and none of them had any idea, which shows it just isn't a problem. A lb of BP does not go very far, my wife and I shot more than that at the California Championship shoot. And I shoot BP in at least 2 shoots a month.

dtknowles
02-01-2015, 06:02 PM
You likely won't find any blackpowder at a Gunshow. Why order a case, when you can get 5 lbs? Why not just call over to Doyline and ask them where the closest place you can buy a pound of powder over the counter is?

Oh, a case is more than 5 pounds, I would get what seems reasonable when I go search for some more in earnest, I don't know about Doyline, do you think he knows who stocks Black Powder in my area. I have check around a lot and I have not found anyone who stocks any reloading supplies other than for muzzle loaders. Any place I haven't checked is probably a two hour round trip but for caps, powder and who knows what, could make it worth the trip.

I just googled Doyline Black Powder, were you making a joke? Millions of pounds of improperly stored Black Powder!!!!!!!

Tim

dtknowles
02-01-2015, 06:07 PM
Well I guess I just can't say anything right! When I said I kind of felt sorry for someone who only shoots a pound or so of powder a year I honestly meant I just felt sorry for those folks who don't get the chance, for whatever reason, to shoot a lot more than that and for all the fun they are missing. I never at all meant it as a smart@%% remark and I honestly TRIED to agree that someone who only shoots a pound or so a year probably shouldn't order more powder than they might use for many years! Apparently, just like that breech plug/pyrodex connection that never even occurred to me until you mentioned it, I suppose you will just read into whatever I say to mean whatever it is you want. Let's just drop it, ok?

We can, I can let it go, sorry for repeatedly misunderstanding you, I will accept some of the blame for the miscommunication.

Tim

Nobade
02-01-2015, 09:17 PM
dtknowles, how far from you is this guy?

http://www.jackspowderkeg.com/#!form__map/c24vq

Might be a solution.

-Nobade

dtknowles
02-01-2015, 10:18 PM
dtknowles, how far from you is this guy?

http://www.jackspowderkeg.com/#!form__map/c24vq

Might be a solution.

-Nobade

Thanks, it is about 2 hours one way. I live as far east as you can go on I-10 in Louisiana at the intersection of I-10, I-12, and I-59. Just west of the big swamp, Honey Island and the Pearl River delta.

Tim

Don McDowell
02-02-2015, 12:16 AM
I just googled Doyline Black Powder, were you making a joke? Millions of pounds of improperly stored Black Powder!!!!!!!

Doyline La. the location of the Goex powder plant.

longranger
02-02-2015, 07:34 AM
900+ new laws in CA each year for the past 7 years and your worried about having more than one pound of B/P ?

montana_charlie
02-02-2015, 10:26 PM
For what it is worth, hylander is right in that in California you are only allowed to have 1 lb at a time.
I read some of the code covering California law on powders.
It's pretty plain that one can only keep 1 pound of black powder on hand, but another part of the code tells how five pounds is legal to transport.

So, it almost seems like you can only have a pound in the house ... but you can keep five more out in your car.

CM

oldred
02-03-2015, 10:35 AM
Ok it's only legal to keep one pound of uber-super high explosive nuclear BP powder at home but how many gallons of gasoline is allowed? What about a tank or two of LP gas for the bar-b-q?