hot water heater question

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I currently have a 50 gallon electric I think it to be about 12 years old it was hear when we bought the house but suposedly installed shortly before I looked but don't see a date on it

we had natural gas installed in the house after we moved in 2004

my experince with hotwater heaters is replacing 40 gallon natural gas units with the standard chimney and I have only done a few of them and never worried about efficiency much as they wer what my dad bough and I was just installing them

both my houses have had electric when I bough the house and I always said I was going to replace with gas when they died , but both had been installed just before i bought the houses , was only at the first house 5 years , this one 11 now and the water heater is acting up

one day it will make water so hot it scalds then next I can hardly get in a 5 minute shower without freezing

to water consumption 1 shower a bath room sink , a kitchen sink with dish washer , and a cloths washing machine , but I never run them all at the same time , the most to run is generally shower and a little bit of sink usage at the same time or dishes and laundry at the same time

this house also does not have a chimney for a traditional gas hot water heater so it will be a power vent

question being do I go power vent tank or tank-less , how much money savings is gained when you figure 2 showers a morning then 8-10 hours of nothing then some laundry a load of dishes and maybe one more shower then 8-10 hours of nothing again

I want something to last , the reason I change out my dads last hot water heater is because it was 20 years old and he wanted it done before he retired

[jcren]

Not what you asked, but the problem is likely one of the 2 temp control thermostats is sticking. When you have plenty of water they are both heating, when you don't have much, only one element is heating. Fairly cheap and easy fix.

[jsizemore]

Like jcren said, your temp controls are acting up. It's about $25 to replace both thermostats. Probably cheaper then a gas H/W heater with plumbing and venting. My H/W heater is 22 years young. I've replaced 1 thermostat and element.

[KAF]

At our gun club we have a shower and two half baths. There is a tank-less on demand water heater there. When camping there and using the shower the hot water in the sink has to run full open to make sure you have hot water the whole time, reason is the on demand heater, no matter how high you have the temp set, HAS to have at least a 5gal per minute to heat, with the shower only there is not that flow, so you have to run the sink, I'd never have one in my home...ever.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I looked at replacing the thermostats last year called the plumber just out of town said he had the parts just let him know then the next day it went back to working fine for months so I let it go. I think he had said 30 each for me to just pick up the parts

this would be less in the short term


does the difference between heating water with electric vs natural gas pay for it's self or am I just trading bills

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I see now I can get the thermostats from true value hardware for 16.99 for upper and 10.99 for lower for that it is worth doing them for now

but still wondering which is more cost effective gas or electric heating of water

[Goatwhiskers]

What I want to know is why anyone would want to heat hot water? GW

[RP]

What I want to know is why anyone would want to heat hot water? GW
In some cases you need a booster water heater to get the temps needed for washing dishes in a commercial setting for health reasons. It has to do with killing germs. Oh I am guilty of saying hot water heater when in fact it is just a water heater if that what you were asking.

[oneokie]

I see now I can get the thermostats from true value hardware for 16.99 for upper and 10.99 for lower for that it is worth doing them for now

but still wondering which is more cost effective gas or electric heating of water

Would need to know your cost per KWH and price per thousand cubic foot of NG. And considering the new electronic controls of the new gas water heaters, I personally would stay with the electric.

[waksupi]

When I built my cabin, I went tankless. When I took the heater to the check out counter, it was packaged, two units together. The girl at the check out said that can't be right, and separated them, giving me one, for an outrageous price. Hooked it up at home, and could have water at a trickle at best for good hot water. Contacted the company, they said you needed two in line to work right. Went back to store, (some weeks later) to complain, and try to get the other half of the heater unit. Refused.
I limped away in this manner for several months, suffering burned out elements at an alarming rate.
Checked with the company again, they said I needed a water conditioner to remove all of the minerals before it goes into the heater.
I then ripped the damn thing off the wall, and put in an electric heater, living happily ever after.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

water and light said the price per kw was .1143 and the gas company said .90 per hundred cubic feet , they called that a therm

[MtGun44]

Go down to a home store and look at two water heaters (one gas and one electric) that are the
same gallon size and quality. Read the number on the huge yellow sticker on the side. It has
an energy calculation for a year based on standard use and some particular cost of gas or electricity,
which is printed on the yellow tag in small print. Correct their calcs up or down for your actual
electric and gas prices. Add in the fact that electric is trending WAY up (due to wind and
solar lunacy being mandated) and gas is trending flat to down, due to fracking.

The most important thing is to unscrew and replace the anode about every 5 years.
If you do this religiously your heater will last almost forever. They won't corrode as
long as the anode is there, but the anode corrodes away in about 5 years in most
situations (which is why good heates have a 5 or 6 year warranty). Once the anode
is gone, the tank starts corroding inside pretty quickly.

Takes a 7/8" or so socket to unscrew it from the top and a new one is $25-35
or so. Aluminum or magnesium, sometimes one works better depending on
local water trace elements. Ask a plumber which he recommends, altho few
replace them, so he may not know.

Bill

[shooter93]

In all the houses I have built or added to or renovated....which is quite a few......a lot of the customers chose an on demand gas/propane water heater. Not a single one has ever been anything but happy about the choice. And when working around there using a lot of water I never ran out of hot water.

[Eddie17]

Installed a Rinnai tankless heater when we upgraded ours. The only down side is you have to let the hot water run for say 30 sec to get hot water. Other then that you could take a piping hot shower all day if you wanted. We can also adjust the temp thru a remote from our master bathroom!

[MrWolf]

I never knew about replacing the anode. Started reading up on it but have a question. I have well water and water softner and wife says there is a smell to the water (I don't smell it). Some state buying a power anode helps with the smell but at like $250 it js the cost if a water heater. Do they work? Sorry to hijack the thread.

[MtGun44]

No idea about the smell and a power anode. I have heard of using a different metal in the anode
to avoid the smell. Power anode seems overkill, to me, and I know the concept is sound as
far as corrosion control, but I have no reason to believe that it would be better than a std anode
replaced every 5 years as far as tank corrosion is concerned.

The concept is that the aluminum or magnesium will corrode to provide a tiny electrical current which
prevents the steel tank from corroding. One online source says that using an aluminum/zinc anode
instead of the more common aluminum or magnesium anode will prevent the smell in private well
water - IF IT IS ONLY IN THE HOT WATER. If you have smell in both hot and cold, it is just sulphur in your water. If it is only in the hot, it may be a kind of bacteria that combines sulphur and the aluminum anode to
make the smell. Reports are that water softeners make the smell a lot worse.

Apparently draining the water heater and dosing with chlorine bleach will kill the bacteria and prevent
or slow the recurrence.

Bill

[KYCaster]

Before you go replacing parts, you need to determine what the problem is......and it can sometimes be frustrating to find the source of an intermittent problem.

First....it's really unusual for a thermostat or a heating element to have an intermittent problem, they're either good or bad, they don't repair themselves.

This isn't the first thing I'd expect to be the problem, but it's the first thing I'd check because it's so easy to do.

Both heating elements do not operate at the same time. The top thermostat will switch power from the top element to the bottom thermostat....you will have either 220V across the lugs on the top heating element or 220V available at the bottom thermostat, not both at the same time.

It's best to have the WH up to normal temp before you start.

You need a clip-on amp meter and volt/ohm meter (or multi meter). Take the covers off both top and bottom elements. Check the voltage at the top lugs of the top thermostat.....you should have 220V across the two lugs and 110V from each lug to the tank(ground).

At the bottom element, clip the amp meter on one of the wires connected to the heating element. It should read "0". Turn the temp control on the bottom t-stat up until it clicks on....you should read around 10 to 12 amps. Turn the temp control on the TOP t-stat up until it clicks....the amp meter on the bottom element should go to "0". Clip the meter to the top element and it should read 10 to 12 amps. Turn both t-stats back down to original settings(120-125 deg.). Assuming both heating elements are good, this test will tell you if there is a problem with either t-stat.

To check the heating elements, turn off the circuit breaker. Check the voltage at the top lugs of the top t-stat to make sure you don't fry yourself. Remove both wires from the element you want to check. With your ohm meter, check the resistance across both lugs of the element. You should read some resistance...how much isn't important...as long as it shows a continuous circuit with some resistance is all you need to know(unless you're really OCD. If that's the case you can do some research to determine exactly what it should be....good luck!). If it shows an open circuit, you have a bad element and it needs to be replaced.

Check the resistance between each lug and the tank(ground). You should read an open circuit here.....if you have ANY continuity between the heating element and ground, you have a bad element and it needs to be replaced.

OK, that takes care of the heating elements and t-stats. Takes much longer to read it than it does to check it.

NEXT.....Now that we've eliminated t-stats and heating elements, we're left with the fact that, somehow, cold water is mixing with hot water before it comes out your shower....two possibilities here.

One......bad tub/shower faucet. There should be a valve on the cold water pipe feeding the water heater.....turn it off and open a hot water faucet....if you still get water from the hot side of the faucet, there's something wrong....if not, open the tub faucet and see if you get water from the hot side of any other faucet. If you do, it will be cold water and there's a problem with the tub faucet. Replace the cartridge. If that cold water valve at the WH actually does turn off all the hot side, then continue to the next step.

Two.......In the water heater, there is a "dip tube" on the cold water inlet that carries cold water to the bottom of the tank and forces hot water to rise up to the outlet. Think about that for a bit and you'll understand why the t-stats switch from bottom element to top. If the dip tube is damaged it can allow cold water into the top of the tank to mix with hot and cause the problem you describe. (seems to be a fairly common problem around here).

Couple of disclaimers here.......If you're bleeding hot water out the temperature/pressure relief valve, disregard all of the above.
If you have a Westinghouse brand from Lowe's with the electronic controls on top, none of this applies. Call the toll free number on the sticker that says "Do not return this to place of purchase" and they'll send you a new control box like they do for every other sucker who bought that ***.


There you go.....so much for trouble shooting your electric WH. If you're doing the work yourself, a new 50 gal. elec. WH should cost you less than $500, installed. Gas will probably cost about $100 more just for the WH, due to recent govt. regs on the safety valve, plus the gas supply pipe and flue. Power vent gas will be at least $1000. You can probably buy a lot of KW's for the cost of converting to gas.

Tankless water heaters continue to improve. If you're interested, do lots of research before you decide. Most of the common problems have been addressed, but they still require regular maintenance to operate efficiently. Best to avoid electric and keep gas vent pipe to a minimum.

Any other questions, let me know........
Jerry

[mold maker]

Three years ago I installed a commercial Rinnai tankless heater to replace an oil fired boiler. I also installed a smaller unit for hot water.
The savings were out of this world. The nat gas bill was <1/2 what the oil had been and the electric was only 2/3 the previous.
I am totally satisfied and would do it again, in a heart beat. A 2600 sq ft, 73 year old brick home w/basement, in piedmont NC is a bear to heat. My 3 teen G Kids use hot water like it's free, not to mention the constantly opened doors.

[MrWolf]

Thanks Bill. That is a lot cheaper route using the aluminum/zinc anode.

[wv109323]

There are two other things you can do to improve efficiency and lower costs.
Get a blanket for the water heater. This is just additional insulation to keep the water hot longer.
The other if your schedule allows is to put a timer on the water heater. If you shower at 6 AM and consume all your hot water in the morning hours then the timer shuts the water heater off till say 5AM the next day. Or you can set the timer for twice a day. Hot water heater on in the morning and evening. There is really no reason to heat water that you are not going to use immediately.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, not to beat this horse to death but, I agree it is WAY cheaper to fix the one you have. Unless the tank is leaking, it is far easier/cheaper to just repair the existing tank type electric unit.
I've been running a power vented propane fired water heater for years but I like the idea of a tankless heater. Unfortunately the initial costs outweigh the savings so unless I have to replace the tank type model, there is no savings in switching to a tankless unit. The electric to gas conversation isn't as expensive but it is still not worth the cost/effort unless the current tank type unit starts to leak.
If I was starting from scratch, I would build a duel system that utilized a solar water heater backed up by a tankless heater.
A combined solar/gas would be difficult to retrofit to an existing home and even in a new home it would take years to realize the savings. The old tank type units aren't very efficient but they are cheaper and have proven to be simple workhorses. Sometimes you just have to look at the bottom line and go with what works best in the given situation.

[geargnasher]

I salvaged an A.O. Smith 50-gallon from a trash heap, cleaned an honest 5 gallons of lime scale out of it, replaced the anode rod, P-T valve, drain valve, and put it to work. That was eight years ago. We turn it off when leaving for more than a few days and it will keep water plenty warm for five straight days. I see no benefit to heating "on demand" unless that demand exceeds the capacity, which at 5Kw will keep up with a 2.5 GPM shower head indefinitely with inlet water temp at ~70F. In that same eight year period my dad has replaced his super-duper propane on-demand heater three times. Funny thing, I bought a new element when I overhauled the thing and it's still in the package hanging from the same nail in the water heater closet where I put it the day I installed the unit.

Lots of sound advice on this thread, what it boils down to is don't forget the cost of maintenance when calculating cost of operation. I could have heated a train load of water for the cost of the three units my dad bought.

Gear

[TXGunNut]

The OE 50 gallon water heater for my house started leaking a few years ago, I scratched my head a bit and replaced it with a 30 gallon heater with two elements. I only need hot water for showers and dishwashing. As long as the showers are 15-20 minutes apart I'm GTG. Keeping 50 gallons of water hot 24/7 is silly in my situation. If you had teenage kids I'd opt for twin 50 gallon water heaters, lol.

[StolzerandSons]

I installed a Bosch Aquastar(tankless, Propane) ten years ago and I've been happy as can be with it ever since. It takes it about 30-60 seconds to get hot water to the tap or shower but once it's hot it will run hot water until it runs the propane tank dry. There are very few things nicer than coming in stiff and sore from working in the cold and taking a nice long(as long as you want) hot shower to soften the muscles up.

[Plate plinker]

Curious has anybody had experience with heat pump type water heaters often referred to as hybrid because they have electrical backup heater.

[lightman]

KYCaster, thats a lot of good info. For those of you thinking of using a timer on your water heater; modern water heaters are insulated so well that its often cheaper to maintain hot water than to heat in up from cold. I would use the cost of the timer to buy a insulated blanket for it.

When we built our house I put a meter socket and a kwh/kw meter in the closet to track the usage. After living there for a little while I wrapped a piece of vinyl insulation around it, like they use in metal buildings. There was a measurable difference in the usage.

Our water causes a huge build up of scale in the bottom rather quickly. I wish they had a larger opening in bottom to make it easier to clean it out! You should see the assortment of homemade devices that I use on my shop vac to get into the bottom where the scale builds up!

[Plate plinker]

Filter, filter, filter, and or softener. Extend the life of your appliances.

[shdwlkr]

Also be aware that very soon in just a few months the new EPA mandated water heaters hit the market. think twice the cost at least and larger in height and larger diameter to accommodate the extra insulation and who knows what else they have required. I am thinking of buying one now just to have when I have the chance to get a home of my own.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

thankyou everyone especialy KYcaster with your excelent directions , I ordered an amp clamp , I have my multi meter and I will be fixing this one , I was at Menards and found they had the thermostats for 10 and 12.99 so I have one of each , menards if far enough away that it was just easier to get them both and return what i don't need later.
amp clamp should be here early next week and I will start testing , I also got a blanket for the water heater

I see the anode in the manual and will get a new anode rod

thank you very much for the education on electric water heaters learned a bunch and it makes a lot more sense now

Also I found menrads has a timer with up to 24 start stop points for 48 dollars , I think I will get that once have things working and only let it run from 5-8 am and 5-10 pm and save heating water the other 16 hours of the day that should get me some savings

[turmech]

Don't know what brand your water heater is but some anodes are not a separate item. Bradford White for example has the anode made into the cold water fill tube. Not that expensive or hard to change but not what most would think of as an anode. Most around my area stay away form magnesium as the consensus is they make the water stink. They work well at protecting the heater but smell.

[turmech]

It has already been mentioned but I'll say it again. 04/16/15 the government has mandated changes in water heater. This will mainly mean they will grow in size. If your space is tight this can be a problem. Tank capacity also are changing IIRC 50 gal will be the largest storage capacity allowed. So if you want a new one now is the time.


Also mentioned, is it is easy and inexpensive to fix. If trouble shooting it is overwhelming I would suggest just replace both element and both thermostats. I would suspect around $75 in parts. It is always best in my opinion to change the elements in pairs as well as the thermostats anyway. In my experience if I change the thermostats one year with in a few more one of the elements go.

[Petrol & Powder]

IME The elements burn out more than the thermostats fail. Back when I had electric water heaters I would always replace both elements as a set but I rarely had to replace thermostats. The exception was a low-boy (short) water heater that I had in a crawl space in one house. That thing was a nightmare and I had to replace both elements AND both thermostats to get it back on line. If I had stayed in that house I would have relocated the water heater inside the house and converted to a conventional tall model. I don't know if the short heaters are more prone to failure in general but that one sure was.

[Charley]

In terms of overall efficiency, demand heaters fueled by natural gas are the most efficient, standard gas heater second, then electric, then tankless electric. Planning on replacing my electric with a heat pump water heater when it give up the ghost. Replaced it only two years back, so it should be a while.

[mjwcaster]

It has been mentioned before, but remember total cost of ownership.

My folks have high-efficiency vented nat-gas water heaters (2) and they suck.
For the cost of a replacement blower motor you could have bought a ton of gas or even electricity.
And both of them have had the blower go bad.
One of them is discontinued, so dad managed to find either NOS or something that fit, can't remember which.
It sounds like garbage, I don't expect it to last long, and it cost several hundred dollars.
My MIL just replaced her water heater, the gas valve went bad.
Those things must be made of gold, another couple of hundred dollars for it, decided to just replace the water heater.

Again could have bought a lot of $15 elements and electricity for that much money.
A power surge just took out a couple of 20yr old electric water heaters in my apartment building.
Landlord replaced them, I would have looked into replacing all the wiring, elements and thermostats for <$100 and kept going.

I used to be on the nat gas and high efficiency bandwagon, now I am not so sure.
And I will definitely pick electric again if I ever go back on propane, especially with todays propane prices.

I have talked to several HVAC and plumbers who think the high efficiency just takes the savings from gas and puts it in their pockets for repairs.

Last one I talked to (replaced gas valve in in furnace at folks house) just laughed when I mentioned the cost of the blower motors and said I should price out the newer variable speed ones.

My folks high efficiency furnace hasn't cost too much money, but that is because we fix it ourselves.
If we had to pay for a service call every time something little went wrong with it you could have bought several furnaces.
Almost all related to that stupid blower motor, clogged drain causing condensate to back up and block vacuum sensor, bad vacuum sensor, bad blower motor etc.
And then bad ignitors, not a biggie, but if you have to pay $85-$100hr for someone to fix it, you could have kept a pilot light running for a long time.

Insulate the heater and pipes, go regular efficiency (if we could) and invest the initial savings and save on repair costs may be more cost efficient in the long run.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

one more question , how do you de lime a hot water heater


I definitely hear you on the efficiency thing

don't give up your old washer and dryer either , the new one break very reliably at 6-8 years and cost more than the initial purchase to fix ,I am still running my oil furnace , I think it was put in in 1964 that is the date on the one thermostat that just went out in December , 50 years on a part not bad , I have a freind that has a HVAC company , he is the guy who fixes rather than replaces , and he said we could use a littel more fuel and he could be a lot less busy it is always the safeties and computerized controls that go out it and seems , and most of the time better insulation of the home woudl do more than replacing the furnace with a "higher efficiency one"

If I had a chimney I could go out a standard gas with pilot light would already be done

[dragon813gt]

Also be aware that very soon in just a few months the new EPA mandated water heaters hit the market. think twice the cost at least and larger in height and larger diameter to accommodate the extra insulation and who knows what else they have required. I am thinking of buying one now just to have when I have the chance to get a home of my own.

Yep, I was going to post about this because I went to a meeting about it last week. April 15th, or right around there, is the switchover date. The physical size of the units won't be changing that much. A few inches in diameter and height to accommodate more insulation.

There are two major changes. There will be no more 80 Gallon electric water heaters. Any electric over 55 gallons will be a heat pump. These have some major issues. One is they subcool the space they're in. Depending on what's in the area you could have condensations and rust issues. And speaking of condensation. They require a drain because they have a defrost cycle. The water has to go somewhere. Personally I think they're junk because of the subcooling aspect.

On gas fired units there will be no more standing pilot models at 40 gallons. These will all have spark ignition. Natural draft will have vent dampers. So they now have to be plugged in which means no hot water when the power goes out.

I'm buying one now. I normally replace at ten years no matter what. I've seen to many homes damaged from water heaters that let out. The minimal cost for a new one is worth the peace of mind.

BTW, they are a WATER HEATER. Hot is not placed in front of water. This is one of my pet peeves.

[6bg6ga]

Go down to a home store and look at two water heaters (one gas and one electric) that are the
same gallon size and quality. Read the number on the huge yellow sticker on the side. It has
an energy calculation for a year based on standard use and some particular cost of gas or electricity,
which is printed on the yellow tag in small print. Correct their calcs up or down for your actual
electric and gas prices. Add in the fact that electric is trending WAY up (due to wind and
solar lunacy being mandated) and gas is trending flat to down, due to fracking.

The most important thing is to unscrew and replace the anode about every 5 years.
If you do this religiously your heater will last almost forever. They won't corrode as
long as the anode is there, but the anode corrodes away in about 5 years in most
situations (which is why good heates have a 5 or 6 year warranty). Once the anode
is gone, the tank starts corroding inside pretty quickly.

Takes a 7/8" or so socket to unscrew it from the top and a new one is $25-35
or so. Aluminum or magnesium, sometimes one works better depending on
local water trace elements. Ask a plumber which he recommends, altho few
replace them, so he may not know.

Bill

Electric is far more costly to run than gas is.

Secondly, no water heater will provide a long life because you get lime build up inside. Soft water does prolong a water heaters life.

Had both over the years. Spent the first 10 years with an electric with a $50 electric bill just on the water heater. Changed elements every 5 years and the thing still managed to lime up and then start leaking. Ist Gas water heater lasted 10 years even with monthly draining. Second water heater lasted 15 years with soft water.

[Yodogsandman]

GREENCOUNTRYPETE, I have an electric 50 gallon water heater that's about twelve years old that acted up kinda like yours. It turned out to be just that the reset button needed to be pushed. Both heating elements have them and if they detect any little thing, they kick off. A little bubble in the tank will trip them.

Good luck with yours...YMMV

[Petrol & Powder]

mjwcaster - I hear you and agree that total cost is key. Having used both gas and electric I have to say that the gas fired units are cheaper to operate, at least for me around here. YMMV. The cost of the propane used to heat water is trivial compared to the cost of electricity used to do the same job.
The other HUGE advantage to a gas fired unit is the ability to have hot water when the electricity is out. You still need a generator or some other source of AC power to run a power vent model but it is a minimal amount of current compared to what it takes to power those electric elements for enough time to heat up 40-60 gallons of 55 degree water.
I do think that the more complicated stuff gets the more prone to failure it becomes and the more it costs to repair when it breaks. In our constant quest for efficiency we often take something that is simple and highly functional and turn it into something complicated that does the same job at far higher initial cost; and doesn't do it as well over the life of the device. I couldn't agree with you more that one can buy a LOT of new elements and a LOT of electricity for the price of some new "highly efficient" water heater.
Something that works day in & day out for 15-20 years with minimal service has much more value to me than something that costs 2 - 4 times as much up front, fails a lot and only saves a small amount of energy. I'd rather have hot water available every day without failure than to save a little everyday but endure higher initial cost, more failures and higher repair costs.

Dragon813gt - as to calling them water heaters as opposed to Hot water heaters,; an acquaintance once yelled at a clerk for trying sell him a Hot Water Heater. He said if the water was already hot he damn sure wouldn't need to HEAT it! :holysheep

[dragon813gt]

Dragon813gt - as to calling them water heaters as opposed to Hot water heaters,; an acquaintance once yelled at a clerk for trying sell him a Hot Water Heater. He said if the water was already hot he damn sure wouldn't need to HEAT it! :holysheep

Like I said, it's a pet peeve of mine. When the guys working the supply houses call them one I just roll my eyes. Your acquaintance was correct in his observation. I never go as far as yelling at someone over it.

As far as cost it's relative to what your utility costs are. But as far as recovery rate it goes Oil then Gas(Natural/Propane) and then Electric. And these are directly related into how many BTUs you are firing at. Oil is putting out more BTUs then one electric element. The top element runs first and once satisfied the bottom will run. Both are not running at the same time.

I feel sorry for those on electric. 80 is the only way to have a decent recovery rate. If you have an 80 and need to replace it after April buy a smaller one and install a mixing valve on it. Run the water heater at a higher temp and mix down. A 55 gallon water heater will give you almost the same capacity as an 80 when run this way.

[MtGun44]

I got 30+ years out of my first nat gas water heater, drained the lime "rocks" out of the bottom
for several years, then no more rocks, it stabilized. If I had known about replacing anodes,
it would still be running.

You have to replace the worthless plastic globe valve, which will pass zero rocks with a nice
metal ball valve to get the lime rocks out.

Bill

[KYCaster]

Like I said, it's a pet peeve of mine. When the guys working the supply houses call them one I just roll my eyes. Your acquaintance was correct in his observation. I never go as far as yelling at someone over it.

As far as cost it's relative to what your utility costs are. But as far as recovery rate it goes Oil then Gas(Natural/Propane) and then Electric. And these are directly related into how many BTUs you are firing at. Oil is putting out more BTUs then one electric element. The top element runs first and once satisfied the bottom will run. Both are not running at the same time.

I feel sorry for those on electric. 80 is the only way to have a decent recovery rate. If you have an 80 and need to replace it after April buy a smaller one and install a mixing valve on it. Run the water heater at a higher temp and mix down. A 55 gallon water heater will give you almost the same capacity as an 80 when run this way.


Dragon, I have the same peeve, but so far I've managed not to punch anybody because of it.

I disagree with your statement about the recovery rate of an 80 gal. heater vs. 50. The gallon rating on the heater refers to the amount of hot water the heater will initially supply before you start getting a cold shower and need to let it recover.

A 4500W element will provide the same number of BTU's regardless of the size of the tank it's in, so the recovery rate is actually going to be longer in the larger tank.

The purpose of the larger tank is to provide more hot water initially, like three showers in quick succession as opposed to two with the 50 gal. tank.....or filling a whirlpool tub. Still takes an hour or more to recover after your shower gets cold.

Lots of good info here.........bottom line is total cost over the life of the heater. Switching from electric to gas or vice versa can be a huge expense that will take many years to recoup.

Heating element life is almost entirely a function of water quality. The more minerals dissolved in your water, the more often you'll have problems. Mineral deposits will accumulate on the heating elements and eventually flake off. These flakes will build up in the bottom of the tank till they cover the bottom element, causing it to over heat and burn out. Draining a couple of gallons from the tank regularly does very little to alleviate the problem since the flakes are too large to go through the valve. The easiest way to remove it is with a wet/dry vac through the hole where the bottom element is screwed into the tank.

Thermostats.........no way to predict when they'll fail. They either work or they don't.

If you want to keep spare parts on hand, go to the local plumbing wholesaler (not Lowe's) and ask for a "water heater rebuild kit". You'll get two heating elements and two thermostats for about the same price as two elements.

Good luck with your water heater.....a cold shower really sux!
Jerry

[dragon813gt]

I disagree with your statement about the recovery rate of an 80 gal. heater vs. 50. The gallon rating on the heater refers to the amount of hot water the heater will initially supply before you start getting a cold shower and need to let it recover.


My comparison was for a regular 80 gallon compared to a 50 gallon w/ a mixing valve.

Gallon rating is storage size. Combine that w/ recovery rate and you know how long until you run out of hot water. Water heaters have the same recovery rate no matter the storage size. We use Bradford White, I'm not a plumber. Electrics have a 21 gallon per hour recovery rate. Natural gas fired has 43 gph while propane has 41. Even w/ gas a larger tank helps. So does a mixing valve. The less hot water you take out the quicker it recovers and less fuel/electricity it uses.

Let's say an average shower is 10 minutes at 2 gpm. You'd drain half of a 40 gallon or one quarter of a 80 gallon. When refilling w/ cold water it will mix w/ the remaining water and heat up. The mixed water will be a lot warmer in the 80 gallon compared to the 40. And while the recovery rate is fixed. The larger tank will be up to temp quicker because the water was warmer to start w/.

I did the math and for my use a 40 gallon natural gas fired w/ a mixing valve was enough. Now that the step daughter is 14 and likes showering I need to re run the numbers. Or I could just shut the hot water off when she's in there to long. You think she would have learned after the first time ;)

[MT Gianni]

High effiency does not equate to longer life, just a higher effiency. As noted, most repairs are more costly and parts can soon be unobtainable.

[geargnasher]

I use rainwater, which Texas at least still allows me to do without going to prison like some places. Still have a well, but it redefines "HARD" water and is universally tough on water-using appliances.

BTW, Bill, thanks for commenting on the anode rod thing a couple of times, it has reminded me that it's time to pull mine out and check it.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Cheapest "fix" on a water heater is a $30 anode every 5 years or so. Just put a new
one in my sister's heater, gone at 5 years. Got about 2-3 gallons of rocks out of her
heater, pretty mild water, apparently.

Gear, how do you collect rain water and put it into service for domestic water? I have a
place in Colorado that might benefit from this.

Bill

[Petrol & Powder]

I'd bet you could forego that $30 every 5 years and still get 25 years out of a water heater; without replacing the anode.
You're still going to have to replace the tank when it rusts through and I doubt you'll get 30 years out of a tank EVEN with a new anode every 5 years.
Replace the elements when they burn out and throw the whole damn thing away when the tank starts to leak. You'll be money ahead. They are NOT made to last, they are made to be profitable. If I can buy one and use it for 25+ years, I'm still ahead of the game; in fact even at 20 years I'm OK.
The limiting factor is the integrity of the tank and I don't think that the tank will last more than 25 years, even with maintenance. It is basically a disposable unit with a 20-25 year life span, at best.

[.45Cole]

Greencountypete-
It may have been stated before in the 3 pages of replies, but I'm a little lazy. Your water quality is immensily important to how your water heater is going to work. Bad water is bad for metal, scaling, ect. A report can be had from the library usually, in the form of the yearly water report. In short, you need to assess the energy you require (as in heat of water, 150*F water plus 50*F water is 100*F for a shower, of what duration). This will give you a daily heat requirement in gallons. Doing recovery rates and such you can off hand calc what you need as far as heat goes. I would thing two heaters might be good, one gas and one electric. You will always have hot water, and you can throttle one back if it becomes too expensive. I'm in the energy calculating business and have benefited from this site. If you PM me I can help with your needs on an energy side, but not so the plumbing side.
You should see my hot water heaters, 20k+ SCFHr monsters.

[badbob454]

dont water heaters need to be flushed out or back flushed to remove calcified crud that builds up on the bottom? i heard this should be done about once every five years ..

[MaryB]

I need to find a deal on a solar preheat tank and build a hot water solar collector. It sits before the water heater and if I can raise my 45-50 degree water to 100 I save a bundle on energy costs. And with only myself a 30 gallon tank is plenty for a shower in the AM.

[MtGun44]

Petrol & Powder -
The anode rod COMPLETELY eliminates internal corrosion in the tank, it will last
forever if you don't run out of rod. Tanks are glass lined, but there are always
pinholes, and the anode rod corrodes preferentially to protect the iron. It is hard to
grasp without understanding the electrochemistry. Here is a short version; iron can't rust
if there is enough surface area of a metal that is higher on the electrochemical chart
nearby and connected physically, which aluminum, zinc and magnesium all are. External
corrosion is negligible.

I have no doubt that the tank would not corrode thru in 100 yrs if anodes replaced
regularly. The one issue is lime buildup on the inside. I wonder if it would eventually
nearly fill the tank. In any case, with anodes intact, internal corrosion is stopped.

No real need for "back flushing", but in some water conditions, NOT all, lime rocks
precipitate out and need to be washed out. The original plastic drain valves are globe
type with an internal maze structure that will only let water and rocks about 1/16" or
so thru. Must be replaced with a straight thru ball valve, which will let over 1/2" size
stuff thru. Even then you have to occasionally clear it with a metal rod. Do this
after about 1 yr and then again at 2 yr if you have lots of lime like we do in KC.
The fourth year mine had no significant new rocks. I was told that with our water,
so this may vary, once the tank is coated with lime the rocks stop building up.

Bill

[DCM]

I got 30+ years out of my first nat gas water heater, drained the lime "rocks" out of the bottom
for several years, then no more rocks, it stabilized. If I had known about replacing anodes,
it would still be running.

You have to replace the worthless plastic globe valve, which will pass zero rocks with a nice
metal ball valve to get the lime rocks out.

Bill

Big + 1 on that.

[Bad Water Bill]

I live over a HUGH limestone deposit.

When we moved in over 40 years ago heaters lasted about 3-4 years.

Being born and raised in Germany my wife said TANKLESS was the only way to go.

Well after over 35 years I replaced the first one "just because" and it must have taken me all of 15 minutes to do the job by myself.

Whats not to like about that service and I never have to remember to drain it either.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

an update on the water heater

I got the amp meter and tested the elements they were fine thermostats worked as they should , went to try an drain it and the drain valve is completely plugged So I figured the tank must be full of lime , well we got the new gas one and had it in the house before I disconnected the old water heater , yesterday

I had to lay the heater on it's side to drain it but got it drained , took a look down in there the anode was only about 1/2 eaten and the drop tube was laying in the bottom , so the issue all along was broken drop tube and never having been drained in 12 years the drain plugged


if some one wants it an anode and a drop tube and it would probably give many more years of service but I have already committed to the new gas water heater and looking forward to what should be a very long hot shower as soon as I get the gas run over to it

On a side note I decided even though it was really convenient to just put connectors and copper right to the water heater when I put all the copper plumbing in my house in 2006 getting rid of the old iron pipe from 1939 , I should have put unions in to be able to disconnect the water heater , I had to cut it out and this time I put Unions in

looking down in inside the water heater I was surprized how good of shape it was in and how little lime there was , but there must be an awful cake of rust at the bottom

going to flush the new one every few months and try for a long life with a much lower electric bill

[MtGun44]

Replace junk OEM drain valve with a big ball valve from home store before
installation. Drain at 6 months and then wait another year. I got a lot of rocks
first 3-4 times then no more. Seems to stabilize a lime coating after a while,
but no doubt depends a lot on water pH and mineral content.

Bill

[Bad Water Bill]

Calcium is the real culprit here.

When I moved into my home it was 16 years old and the 3/4" steel piping was so loaded with calcium the water was restricted to a trickle.

Calcium does not collect on copper so my 30 + year old tankless heater had 0 calcium buildup in it when I finally changed it out.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

water PH has a lot to do with lime deposit , the last town I lived in most of us in the old neighbor hood my house was built in 1873 had lead water pipes into the house , the guys with city water watch the ph very close they knew how to keep a layer of lime on the inside of those pipes and make sure they passed every lead test . most of them live just down the street and had the same lead pipes into their houses

[Petrol & Powder]

Bill, I hear you and as usual; you are absolutely correct.
The sacrificial anode does save the tank from rust and using a real drain valve will help to remove the solids that collect in the tank. If my view was totally shaped by chemistry I'd go with your method. However I must insert economics into that process and at some point we reach diminishing returns on extending the life of that electric water heater. There's no doubt that Ph, mineral content, particulates and maintenance all play a big role in the life of that tank. Even locally the water quality changes dramatically over just a few miles. I think it's a balancing act between cost of the unit, cost of operation and cost of maintenance vs. The ultimate cost over the life of the unit.

[pete501]

We are all electric and I had looked into the Heat Pump water heaters. Energy savings and a generous rebate was tempting. One of the workers at Lowes has a Heat Pump water heater in his home and had some info that was helpful in deciding against one. First the noise was such that it can be heard inside when the placement was in the garage. Second the unit produces cool exhaust making the garage a constant 38 degrees which will not work because our water heater is inside the laundry room. It might be good if you lived in a hot climate and could use the "free" air conditioning. The water heater is our largest consumer of electricity. To save money, we turn on the circuit breaker about 15 minutes before a shower. Shower every other day, wash dishes after showers. Just the two of us and wouldn't work with a larger household. We save about $20-$25 a month. Hard water here so I drain the tank and use a shop vac and a 1/2" flex hose to get all the crud out. Filters are pointless since the dissolved solids boil out into solid when heated. Water softener would help but I don't want the salt discharge in the septic tank or in the soil.

[Bad Water Bill]

"Water softener would help but I don't want the salt discharge in the septic tank or in the soil."

If a member of your family or a guest has a heart condition the softener salts MIGHT be hazardous to their health.

[MtGun44]

BW Bill -

As said by others - the issue is pH of ground water AND the local mix of (non toxic) chemicals
like calcium (lime) and magnesium and others that are dissolved in the water. The water
conditions vary A LOT, and sometimes over short distances, too. One place I lived in
central Virginia copper pipes turn to lacework in 15 years and drinking the first water of the day
after it sat in the pipes overnight would make me throw up if I drank a glass of water in
the morning on an empty stomach - too much copper dissolved into the water overnight.
OK if you run the water for 2 minutes in the AM. Other places lime deposits build up
rapidly in iron pipe, not so quickly in copper. In rural east KS, we ONLY have "city water" (actually
county water) because ground water has oil, nat gas, salt, etc. This area was the bottom of an
ocean and not good for ground water here. BUT, copper pipes last forever. Lime does deposit
fairly much.
In my vacation home in CO, I put in all plastic pipe, more affordable, reliable as heck (father's house
had it in Va where copper dissolves, perfect after 40 yrs) and does not build up lime.

This is why I mentioned "ask a local plumber" about which water heater anode metal works best
WITH THE LOCAL WATER. All anodes will stop the rust, but some last longer and some will react
with local chemicals and bacteria to make smells.

As to the long term economics. I can't see how you can lose spending 1/2 hour and $30-35
every 5 years to keep the water heater going almost forever. This is ~50 cents per month. A
new heater is about $350-400 with a 6 yr warranty, and $670 with a 12 yr warranty. Guess
what the difference is? The 12 yr one has TWO anode rods from factory so they last for 11 yrs
without replacement, then tank rusts trough in the next 2 years if you don't replace the
anodes. So save the $300+ and put in a $30-35 rod at the 5 yr mark, and again at 10.

Pete - your comments on Pb pipe are right on - OK if covered with lime and pH is right, dangerous
in some waters.

Bill

[Petrol & Powder]

".........As to the long term economics. I can't see how you can lose spending 1/2 hour and $30-35
every 5 years to keep the water heater going almost forever. This is ~50 cents per month. A
new heater is about $350-400 with a 6 yr warranty, and $670 with a 12 yr warranty. Guess
what the difference is? The 12 yr one has TWO anode rods from factory so they last for 11 yrs
without replacement, then tank rusts trough in the next 2 years if you don't replace the
anodes. So save the $300+ and put in a $30-35 rod at the 5 yr mark, and again at 10..."


I don't think I have 50 years left in me and I SO don't care if the next owner of my house has to replace the water heater!