6.5x55 formed from 30-06, etc. ?

[ballistim]

I've been interested in forming 6.5x55 from 30-06 military brass since my first rifle was a Swedish Mauser Model 94 back in the 70's and brass was almost impossible to find. Over the years I've considered it, but never followed through on it. I've seen posts from several here who've had a lot of experience and wanted to see what results others here have had with this, what form dies were used, if fire forming, neck turning, etc. were required.
Hoping to learn from others with experience to know what I need to do this.

[Maven]

I've done that, mostly just to see if I could: it works, but is quite labor intensive. Here are the steps I took:

1) Place '06 or .270Win. brass in the appropriate shell holder (with lube well below the shoulder) and run it into a 6.5 x 55mm form & trim die. Follow the instructions that come with your form & trim die for setting it up. If no form & trim die, use a the FL sizing die (with decapping rod & expander ball), lowering it in 1/2 - 3/4 turn increments until it makes firm contact with the shell holder. Rotating the brass periodically as per Grumpa's suggestion during the forming process is an excellent idea too.

2) Clean up the case mouth, chamfer it, and then inside neck ream it. I use a Forster trimmer with the 6.5mm neck reamer. You can use an external neck turner to very lightly true up the necks (Forster again, but only a very light cut), but it really isn't necessary in my military rifle.

3) Full length size it with the appropriate FL die. (Mine are Hornady New Dimension.)

4) Use the appropriate Lyman (or other) M-die to expand the case necks for cast bullets.

5) Anneal both the shoulder & neck.

6) Uniform the primer pocket and remove the burr on the flash hole if you choose.


Once fire formed, I've found no difference in performance and case life between the reformed brass and actual, i.e., Graf & Sons (Privi Partizan) and Winchester brass with typical cast bullet/fast twist loads. Btw, the latter 2 generally require a different shell holder as their bases are wider (.478" & .475", resp.) than '06 or .270Win. brass (.473").


P.S. Trim to length after step 2 or 3, but trim to the MAX. length as the cases will be a tad shorter after the first firing.

[ballistim]

I've done that, mostly just to see if I could: it works, but is quite labor intensive. Here are the steps I took:

1) Place '06 or .270Win. brass in the appropriate shell holder (with lube well below the shoulder) and run it into a 6.5 x 55mm form & trim die. Follow the instructions that come with your form & trim die for setting it up.

2) Clean up the case mouth, chamfer it, and then inside neck ream it. I use a Forster trimmer with the 6.5mm neck reamer. You can use an external neck turner to very lightly true up the necks (Forster again, but only a very light cut), but it really isn't necessary in my military rifle.

3) Full length size it with the appropriate FL die. (Mine are Hornady New Dimension.)

4) Use the appropriate Lyman (or other) M-die to expand the case necks for cast bullets.

5) Anneal both the shoulder & neck.

6) Uniform the primer pocket and remove the burr on the flash hole if you choose.


Once fire formed, I've found no difference in performance and case life between the reformed brass and actual, i.e., Graf & Sons (Privi Partizan) and Winchester brass with typical cast bullet/fast twist loads. Btw, the latter 2 generally require a different shell holder as their bases are wider (.478" & .475", resp.) than '06 or .270Win. brass (.473").

Thanks Maven!
I now have a much better idea of what's involved and can decide if it's worth buying the forming dies, I have a Forster trimmer, so I could pick up what I'd need to ream & turn the necks & already uniform pockets & deburr flash holes. I already have a large supply of LC brass. I'll post back if I give it a go.

Tim

[GRUMPA]

When it comes to reaming the case I do things just a bit different. Here's something for you folks to consider whenever you do or think about case forming. In almost all instances when moving a neck down further the brass gets thicker, this is almost always the case. Whenever I ream when I form I remove the decapping rod completely and here's why.

If the decapping rod is left in, and the new neck is formed, when the expander is allowed to come back up through the new neck there's a lot of taper now on the outside of the new neck. With the expander left out, almost all the taper is inside the neck, that's when I ream, to get most if not all the taper out of the neck. Once I get done reaming all of them I re-install the decapping rod and run them through the sizer once again.

I noticed when I did the 35Rem from 308 brass, the outside of the neck had about .005-.009 taper. So now I do things a bit different and I'm lucky to find anymore than .001 taper on the outside of the neck.

I ream by a totally different method altogether, must faster and easier using a lathe and a steady rest. Thing is you have to do the math and get the right size reamer, I use the type machine shops use and not a custom reamer for any of the bench mounted trimmers.

[brstevns]

When it comes to reaming the case I do things just a bit different. Here's something for you folks to consider whenever you do or think about case forming. In almost all instances when moving a neck down further the brass gets thicker, this is almost always the case. Whenever I ream when I form I remove the decapping rod completely and here's why.
If the decapping rod is left in, and the new neck is formed, when the expander is allowed to come back up through the new neck there's a lot of taper now on the outside of the new neck. With the expander left out, almost all the taper is inside the neck, that's when I ream, to get most if not all the taper out of the neck. Once I get done reaming all of them I re-install the decapping rod and run them through the sizer once again.

I noticed when I did the 35Rem from 308 brass, the outside of the neck had about .005-.009 taper. So now I do things a bit different and I'm lucky to find anymore than .001 taper on the outside of the neck.

I ream by a totally different method altogether, must faster and easier using a lathe and a steady rest. Thing is you have to do the math and get the right size reamer, I use the type machine shops use and not a custom reamer for any of the bench mounted trimmers.
How did you swage the base of 308 to 35 rem?

[GRUMPA]

How did you swage the base of 308 to 35 rem?

You know they charge a hefty price for piggy backing a thread?

That's something I don't discuss...

[rmatchell]

I have made 6.5x55 from 308 blanks. Works great and no need to uae up good 30-06.

[brstevns]

You know they charge a hefty price for piggy backing a thread?

That's something I don't discuss...
Sorry about that, my curiosity got the best of me.

[ballistim]

Interesting to hear GRUMPA's methods of reaming, another reason I buy brass I need that he makes, he can do things in a larger production with the proper equipment that I can't do as well if at all on my own, so I'd rather have more time for casting, reloading & shooting with my available time. I'd still like to know what I can to be able to make up brass when nothing is available or price is through the roof, which has been too often lately.

[GRUMPA]

That's part of the reason I looked into brass conversions. All except for 1 that I do the rest are pretty reasonably priced all in all. I get so tired of looking around and seeing how much brass costs. After working in Aerospace for 27yrs as a precision grinder and running lathes and mills for my own tooling in the grinding dept. something like this is right up my alley. There's much more to case forming than a person realizes, it's not as simple as basically squashing a piece of brass into another shape. There's just so many variables you really have to stop and think which is the best way to get this done.

I'm still working on the 5.45x45 brass conversion, that so far is a brain teaser. But I'm bound and determined to make that case work. For that case to my knowledge there no reloadable brass, so there's a need for it. Trust me the final price is going to be up there in price with the amount of work required. And believe it or not the parent case is the 30-30 case, lots of work to make that happen.

I'm sure there's more conversions I'll do later, there's many that just spark my curiosity. Thing is many times when I research into a given cases it's the parent case that seems to cost more than what the finished case cost in the first place.

I have come up with some odd results though, 9mm shot loads from 223 brass, 45LC blanks, 300 Blackout shot loads etc.

My mind just comes up with all kinds of ideas when I'm converting 1 thing into another.

[ballistim]

I once read where someone preferred using military '06 brass for the 6.5x55 because with the thicker brass they were able to trim, ream & neck turn to exact size to fit chamber after chamber cast or pound cast, I can see where that would make it worth while loading for one particular gun.

[upnorthwis]

I've made it out of .30-06 brass too and it's a real pain. Lot's easier to make it out of .257 Roberts, 6MM Rem, or 7MM Mauser. One pass through die and trim.

[ballistim]

I've made it out of .30-06 brass too and it's a real pain. Lot's easier to make it out of .257 Roberts, 6MM Rem, or 7MM Mauser. One pass through die and trim.

I've noticed when there is an option, many seem to neck up rather than neck down.

[EDG]

Here is my experience or lack there of with the 6.5X55 and cases with undersized heads.

When I got my first Swede 6.5X55 about the only brass around was Norma. I managed to buy enough at the then stratospheric price of $5 a box for new brass. Then I ran into Hansen ammo (nny same as PPU) and got it for $5.65 a box for loaded ammo. Then I acquired a few other cases here and there in what I did not know was the golden age of brass availability. Some of the brass was the extra heavy PMC.

After that I bought a 7.5 Mas 36/51. Like the Swede round it has a bigger case head - even larger than the Swede round.
I had several different choices for MAS donor brass. This was before there was any boxer brass for the MAS round.

I made up 20 rounds of MAS brass using PMC 6.5X55. I used the PMC because it was so heavy. It still gave what to me was a huge step at the solid head juncture when fired. I also made a few cases using Norma 7.5X55 Schmidt Rubin brass. The Norma cases were tough to form the head down but they did work ok. I never liked the the 6.5X55 cases used in the MAS. I later traded that rifle off. After that little exercise I never had any desire to make 6.5X55 cases out of some thing with a smaller head I don't care how much money it saves me.

In the mean time I have ran into a few Remington cases in 6.5X55 and found they are under size but the heads do not seem to produce the huge step that you would expect.
Federal cases are full size and produce no step.

Fortunately over the years I have ran into more PPU brass and then a very nice man donated a mother lode of new Norma brass. I don't think I will have to buy anymore 6.5X55 brass especially at todays prices but if I needed it I would never make it out of something undersize.

In the years since I have had even more experience with the big step you get with undersized case heads with both the .303 British and the 6.5 Jap rounds. The .303 Lee Enfield stretch brass both radially and longitudinally and has become one of my favorite rifles to dislike since it destroys brass at such a rapid rate. I have made .303 brass out of both .444 Marlin and .405 Win cases. Both have larger heads and take a lot of work. The .444 Head has to be cut about .004 smaller.
The .405 rims can be too thick and the case necks needed turning in my rifle. These are very expensive cases to acquire so the numbers produced have been small but they do work better than the run of the Winchester and Remington cases with their undersized heads.

[gunwonk]

Once fire formed, I've found no difference in performance and case life between the reformed brass and actual, i.e., Graf & Sons (Privi Partizan) and Winchester brass with typical cast bullet/fast twist loads. Btw, the latter 2 generally require a different shell holder as their bases are wider (.478" & .475", resp.) than '06 or .270Win. brass (.473").

I kind of backed into this, and found that maybe it's not the base diameter, but the extractor groove depth. At least it is in my particular situation. I'm sort of forming .30-06 case heads on 6.5x55 brass.

I decided to use some once fired Igman 6.5x55 brass that I'd been avoiding. It's that horrible stuff with the undersize flash hole, that grabs your decapping pin unless you drill out the flash hole before decapping the first time.

After getting past the flash holes, I wanted to use a Redding competition shell holder set to control shoulder bump on resizing. This is 5 shell holders with the bottom faces machined to .002", .004". .006", .008", and .010" deeper than standard. (To bump your shoulder a little more or less, use the next up or down shell holder.)

I already have the .30-06-size set of 5 shell holders, and didn't feel good about coughing up another $70 for the 6.5x55 set, just to accommodate a .005-ish base diameter difference. Come to find out there is enough space in the base diameter dimension of the Redding shell holders. The problem was that they hung up on the extractor groove, which is a few thousandths deeper on the .30-06, and where the Redding .30-06 shell holders are nice and and tight.

So I've been cutting the extractor groove a smidgen deeper on this batch of Igman 6.5x55 cases -- more or less forming .30-06 case heads on 6.5x55 brass -- and using my .30-06-head-size shell holders to resize them.

(Maybe I should have bought the 6.5x55 shell holder set in the first place, and used it for my .30-06 & .308 stuff. Oh well. :smile: )

[n.h.schmidt]

I form 6.5X55 from 30-06 this way and its easy with no loss. Start with a standard 308 sizer die. Remove the expander.Put a 1/8" drill bit between the die and shell holder and tighten down. Lube the case and size. This is as easy as any FL sizing. You will have a case with a long neck. Trim the case to just a little longer than you need. Change the die to the 6.5 X55 FL die and remove the expander. Lube the case and size. The neck sizes down easily in this step. When done with your cases,put the expander back in the die. Lube the inside case necks and run them through the expander ball. I would not go any farther into the die but to expand the neck. The cases are now formed but with too thick necks. Outside neck turn to thin them out. Final trim and you are done.
n.h.schmidt

[pworley1]

I use a process much as Maven described except that I use a 7x57 die as an intermediate step.

[ballistim]

I form 6.5X55 from 30-06 this way and its easy with no loss. Start with a standard 308 sizer die. Remove the expander.Put a 1/8" drill bit between the die and shell holder and tighten down. Lube the case and size. This is as easy as any FL sizing. You will have a case with a long neck. Trim the case to just a little longer than you need. Change the die to the 6.5 X55 FL die and remove the expander. Lube the case and size. The neck sizes down easily in this step. When done with your cases,put the expander back in the die. Lube the inside case necks and run them through the expander ball. I would not go any farther into the die but to expand the neck. The cases are now formed but with too thick necks. Outside neck turn to thin them out. Final trim and you are done.
n.h.schmidt

Is the 1/8" drill bit used to create the gap between the size die & shell holder? I just want to make sure that I understand that part. I like your method described here, sounds very doable for me, lots of good information in all the posts so far, keep 'em coming!

[Swede 45]

Or just have a friendly Swede ship you some?! ;-)
We are knee deep in them here!

[BruceB]

Or just have a friendly Swede ship you some?! ;-)
We are knee deep in them here!

Many years ago, we in Canada were buying AG42B Ljungmann semi-auto 6.5 rifles for about $40, many as-new, and all with complete parts-and-cleaning kits.

Now, the 42B is a WORSE finger-biter than a Garand ever thought of being.... MUCH worse (don't ask how I know!) The loading of the rifle was designed to use stripper clips, and those were unavailable where we were. (They are a different size from our 7.62/.30'06 clips).

Soooo...... a very good friend of mine wrote directly to Norma , the Swedish ammo maker. He explained our problem, and asked if the company was aware of a source for the 6.5 strippers.

A couple weeks later, he received a box in the mail, direct from Sweden, containing SEVERAL HUNDRED 6.5x55 stripper clips.... no letter, no explanation, NO CHARGE.

Our AG42B rifles were then much easier to use (and much safer for our fingers). We were deeply appreciative of the generosity of the Norma company.

[Swede 45]

Bruce.. That was probably back in the days when Norma had a customer service worth speaking of ...

[ballistim]

Many years ago, we in Canada were buying AG42B Ljungmann semi-auto 6.5 rifles for about $40, many as-new, and all with complete parts-and-cleaning kits.

Now, the 42B is a WORSE finger-biter than a Garand ever thought of being.... MUCH worse (don't ask how I know!) The loading of the rifle was designed to use stripper clips, and those were unavailable where we were. (They are a different size from our 7.62/.30'06 clips).

Soooo...... a very good friend of mine wrote directly to Norma , the Swedish ammo maker. He explained our problem, and asked if the company was aware of a source for the 6.5 strippers.

A couple weeks later, he received a box in the mail, direct from Sweden, containing SEVERAL HUNDRED 6.5x55 stripper clips.... no letter, no explanation, NO CHARGE.

Our AG42B rifles were then much easier to use (and much safer for our fingers). We were deeply appreciative of the generosity of the Norma company.

I bought several boxes of the Swedish stainless steel stripper clips some years back, they were great for filling bandoliers for my 1903A3, worked perfectly-and cheap!

[geargnasher]

The whole point of forming 6.5x55 brass from '06 or .270 today is to get the thicker necks. I never inside-reamed, no need at all. Just outside turned for a snug fit in the chamber with throat-sized cast bullets and good to go.

The body, obviously, will expand a lot down near the case head, so use good, relatively new brass or the forming. A key point is to cut a narrow strip of cellophane tape and wrap even layers around the case head just in front of the extractor groove to center the case snugly in the chamber for fire-forming, this keeps the rim concentric with the body and prevents off-center, excessive bulging or "guppy brass".

I knock the shoulder back with an 8mm Mauser die, then put through the Swede die with the decapping rod out of it, then trim to length, expand the neck to mandrel size and outside turn. Chamfer and done.

Gear

[ballistim]

I had read many of the things mentioned here by gear in an old thread where a former member here posted about shooting milk jugs and much controversy and discussion followed regarding HV and the 6.5x55 which included making brass from military '06 citing the neck thickness and centering the case with tape to fireform. I've been thinking about trying it ever since.

[Yodogsandman]

I had read many of the things mentioned here by gear in an old thread where a former member here posted about shooting milk jugs and much controversy and discussion followed regarding HV and the 6.5x55 which included making brass from military '06 citing the neck thickness and centering the case with tape to fireform. I've been thinking about trying it ever since.

Same here!

While hunting, I saw an oil jug once at 30 yards but, I've always wanted to walk up on an unaware milk jug. I think the conditions have to be just right to be able to fool them.:kidding:

[n.h.schmidt]

Ballistim
The 1/8" drill is only to get the spacing about right . Any 1/8" thick item could be used. A washer for instance would do.
The tape idea for centering the base is also usefull. I have done that in making 7.5 French from 30-06. Now that will bulge. I use them only for cast and low power loads in general.
n.h.schmidt

[ballistim]

Ballistim
The 1/8" drill is only to get the spacing about right . Any 1/8" thick item could be used. A washer for instance would do.
The tape idea for centering the base is also usefull. I have done that in making 7.5 French from 30-06. Now that will bulge. I use them only for cast and low power loads in general.
n.h.schmidt

That's what I thought, thanks!

[GRUMPA]

How did you swage the base of 308 to 35 rem?

After thinking on it a bit I will say this.....

The base of the case as we know is to big, I made a base reduction die that squeezes it to size. I don't remove material or brass from that section of the case.

[geargnasher]

Grumpa, I used a Lee .457" push-through bullet sizing die followed buy a .452" one, case heads ended up about .456" or so. Later, I tried sizing bullets in the .452" die and they were coming out .454". Oops.

Gear

[gwpercle]

Here is another method, rather low tech.
Back in the day, I reformed 30-06 into 7X57 Mauser by lubing 30-06, slipping shell holder onto base of case and using a CH4D sizing die, with decapping rod removed, in a large vice to slowly squeeze the case into the die. When it had gone in full length, stopped by the shell holder, I then used a steel rod to tap the case out of the sizing die. Didn't have $$$ for special case forming dies. It worked, had to trim and turn necks but I did make cases at low cost.
Gary

[nanuk]

Grumpa, I used a Lee .457" push-through bullet sizing die followed buy a .452" one, case heads ended up about .456" or so. Later, I tried sizing bullets in the .452" die and they were coming out .454". Oops.

Gear


isn't 35Rem a 0.458/0.460 base diameter? would you really need to use the .452? perhaps a .454 would be even better and allow spring back to be near the 0.458 SAAMI spec'd diameter?

[EDG]

The .35 Rem is about .450 as in one of a kind oddball. Just a little larger than the .446 to .448 Mannlicher based rounds.

[nanuk]

The .35 Rem is about .450 as in one of a kind oddball. Just a little larger than the .446 to .448 Mannlicher based rounds.

SAAMI shows it to be 0.460 Rim -0.010, and 0.4574 at the 0.200 reference distance from the (face?)

I always thought using 303Brit brass would work for a 35RemRimmed. should make a nice fit.

[EDG]

My .35 Rem RP brass measures .450 to .452 at the solid head and .452 to .455 over the bulge after it has been FL sized.
You are right about the .303 making a .35 Rem rimmed. I think there are people that do it with the Contender.
If you have a lathe all you have to do is chuck the barrel and use a small boring bar or hand ground tool to bore the rim recess. You can even leave it a close fit so the brass never has any significant rim clearance in the Contender barrel.

Most RP and WW .303 brass is abut .453 down to .450. (unfortunately most .303 chambers are .460 at the rim)
.303 NNY/PPU measures .455 to .453.

6.5X53R Dutch Chambers measure about .454 at the rime so the .303 US made brass will work well.

The Normal 6.5X50R Jap brass measures somewhere around .446 and is a sorry fit in the large 6.5 Jap chambers.
My 6.5 Jap chamber measures .464 ahead of the rim so the .303 is a better fit. I have reformed .308 to 6.5 Jap but the rim is really a little too small for my rifle.



SAAMI shows it to be 0.460 Rim -0.010, and 0.4574 at the 0.200 reference distance from the (face?)

I always thought using 303Brit brass would work for a 35RemRimmed. should make a nice fit.

[kywoodwrkr]

RCBS had, maybe still do, a two die set for base forming.
They were capable of taking 30-06 down to 7,62x39 head size if I remember correctly.
The set I had were in a cardboard box so at least old!
They were designed to be used in an arbor press or large vise, very similar to Lyman full length sizers of 310 days.
The internal edges(sharp) were cut with a small rebate so brass could be swaged and/or shaved off the case.
Two dies, four reduction sizes. Thought CH-4D had similar set up but theirs might have been for a reloading press.
Were I to make any dies like this, I'd make them for the RCBS RC with the 1 1/4-12 thread and from A2 steel.
YMMV