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JIMinPHX
12-27-2007, 08:34 PM
With the price of lead going through the roof & wheel weights becoming hard to find, I decided that it was time for me to build a little bullet trap so that I can reuse my lead.

I’m toying around with a couple of different design ideas, but coming out of the gate, I decided to stay with a tried & true design. I basically copied the .22 rimfire traps that can be had commercially for about $50 & just made one out of heavier material. I used a piece of 3/8” A-36 steel plate at a 45 degree angle for the backstop. I took a couple of shots at it with a pellet rifle & the pellets ended up in the decelerator chamber, so I think that I have good geometry.

The next big question is how hard can I hit this thing without damaging the backstop. I’m going to try it out tomorrow. I’ll hit it with some 38s first & if that goes well, then I’ll move up to a .45acp. I’m a little shy about pointing a magnum at it, even with just 13BNH lead. Does anyone out there have any experience with a 3/8” soft steel plate backstop? Does anyone know how big of a slug I can throw at this thing & how fast before I bend it? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

jhrosier
12-27-2007, 09:14 PM
Jim,
Way back when, I shot NRA Hunters' Pistol Silhouette. We used 3/8" hot rolled steel for the targets. The .41 Mag and heavy .44 Mag loads would bend the targets. 41 Mag was the worst offender.. Now, these targets were oriented 90 degrees to the muzzle, so that probably aggravated the problem. High velocities will ruin your backstop in short order, but non-magnums should be OK. You might consider welding an "X" shaped truss of the same material to the backside of the impact area.
BTW, if you know someone in the local haghway dept., see if you can get some broken blade edges from a grader or other earth moving machine. They are said to be very hard and wear resistant.

Jack

Lloyd Smale
12-27-2007, 10:55 PM
take a look at mine here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21235 it was made of simular material and takes constant hits from 500 linebaughs and ive shot .223 and .308 fmj at it many many times and it shows absoultely no wear. The day that pic was taken i emptied the lead barrel for the second time and it weighted 325 lbs so you can get some idea how much lead that its taken so far.

floodgate
12-27-2007, 11:32 PM
JIMinPHX:

Keep us posted, and provide photos or sketches when you get it worked out. I have gotten some bismuth from STP here, to try out (straight or alloyed with 5-8% tin) as an alternative to the soon-to-be-banned lead here in PRK. But at $6-8 per lb., I definitely want to be able to recycle it. I plan to work with loads in the range of .22 CF Maynard to .44 Spl., at least to start with.

floodgate

imashooter2
12-27-2007, 11:42 PM
Static steel plates made of the same material will dish after many shots and become unsafe. Those are hung near vertical though. Your 45 degree backstop should extend its life quite a bit. I'd stick with pistol rounds.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 11:40 AM
Thanks for the info guys.

Lloyd’s trap looks to have less angle than mine does. That’s one reason his will take hotter hits than mine will. Also, boiler plate is probably a bit tougher than the A-36 (hot roll) that I used. I’ve pointed a .308 at a piece of 3/4" 1018 at a 45 degree angle before. .308 ball ammo will take a nasty gauge out of it on the very first shot.

I’ve got 2 traps in the works right now. The first that I started building is the one that will probably become my main unit. It has a detachable decelerator chamber for easy emptying & a removable backstop plate for two reasons. The first reason is that the current 1/2" plate that I have is 40 pounds all by itself & removing it makes moving the trap much easier. The second reason is that I will be able to change the back stop if it gets messed up. It will accept up to a 1” thick back plate, or sandwich of back plates. I figure that if I get a thin piece of hard plate, I can put it in front of the thicker back up plate for hot rifle calibers. This one is not finished yet.

The one that I’m going to test today is bullet trap Jr. It’s a small one with a 3/8” back plate. The whole thing is little bigger than the piece of copy paper that I make my targets out of. I figured that if I am going to end up doing some destructive testing to find out what my max caliber is, I’d rather not loose too much material (plate) in the process. Bullet trap Jr. is shown below.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 11:44 AM
Bullet trap Sr. in progress below

Ricochet
12-28-2007, 02:08 PM
A few years ago my little sweetie (pictured in the "Christmas Goodies" thread) shot at a friend's 3/8" steel pig silhouette with my .300 Weatherby magnum from about 50 yards. The 200 grain Speer Hot Core spitzer, loaded over 100 grains of WC860, drilled the neatest round hole you ever saw right through the pig.

fishhawk
12-28-2007, 02:26 PM
as a kid and not haveing much free cash at the time i did a boolit trap a little differnt i used 1/8 steel plate set at a 45 degree angle but what i did differnt was back up the 1/8 plate with some 4'' x8'' timber that i had, never had a 357 mag round even dent it or the 45 acp either just set it on the ground and let the ground be my catcher

44man
12-28-2007, 02:46 PM
My 50 yd plate of 1/2" steel looks almost like yours. HEE, :mrgreen:, I need to dig up the woods and smelt the dirt to recover any lead. Boolits from heavy handguns just explode and cut a trench. I can pick up a few gas checks now and then. The plates are bolted to the frame with stainless aircraft bolts and I have sheared a few. I have not bent the plates though.
I think Lloyd has the best but I can't make one at home. It would take 20 tanks of oxygen.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 08:24 PM
Well, I did my first test this afternoon. I was a little short on time, so I just sent a couple of rounds downrange, but I learned a lot.

130 grain 13BNH .357 slugs at 675fps & also 1350fps did no damage to the backstop, but the remains of the bullets were just about powder. Results from .45 cal 200 grain commercial lead semi wad cutters at 800 fps were similar, but some of the remaining chunks were bigger.

Not that much of the bullet material ended up in the decelerator chamber. A lot of it simply fell on the ground. Some spattered back out through the back of the paper target, mostly within an inch of the top edge. I suspect that a piece of cardboard may have stopped it. In all, I sent 2170 grains downrange & recovered about 950, a little less than half.

The gray spatter in this picture is worth a thousand words.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 08:28 PM
I had a piece of paper under the open area behind the front legs. That caught a lot of gray dust & probably accounted for about 35% of my recovered material. Very little of the gray dust seemed to go through the paper. What little did go through was at the right & left edges. The next time that I use this thing, I'm going to cover up all the open areas with cardboard & also the top inch across the front opening. I think that should improve my recovery ratio quite a bit.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 08:40 PM
This side view (with wood removed) gives you a little bit better idea of how it's put together. The yellow line shows the angle of the bottom deflector plate & also where it ends.

BOOM BOOM
12-28-2007, 10:12 PM
HI,
What would happen if you made the slope longer?
Less lead splatter/dust maybe?
I am going to do the bullet trap also, small portible, thinking of 2 layers of rubber mud fiaps attached to front & back of 2x4's at front as decelerators. Also would work to put targets on.
Tire wts. are getting hard to scroung. And on a school teachers pay I can not buy them & afford to shoot.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 10:29 PM
HI,
What would happen if you made the slope longer?
Less lead splatter/dust maybe?


I suspect that would be the case.

JIMinPHX
12-28-2007, 10:41 PM
HI,
I am going to do the bullet trap also, small portible, thinking of 2 layers of rubber mud fiaps attached to front & back of 2x4's at front as decelerators.

I thought about building a decelerator box too. I was going to use crumb rubber, also known as rubber mulch. I did a little sniffing around. If you call it rubber mulch, you can pay as much as $0.75 per pound in 1 cubic foot (30 pound) bags. If you call it crumb rubber, the price can go down as low as $0.17/Lb in bulk quantities.

The biggest difference in grades seems to be the percentage of wire free material that is guaranteed. Landscape grade is usually 98% wire free. Play ground base is 99.9% wire free. At a 6" depth, the playground grade had a maximum safe fall height rating that is about twice that of wood/bark mulch. Nugget sizes can be had from wire mesh sizes up to over an inch.

I was just about ready to go out & buy a cubic foot of this stuff to play with, then I read an article that said this stuff kills plants because it leaches zinc into the soil. Since zinc is not the caster's friend, I decided to hold off on trying that material. Also, the stuff doesn't float, so I would need to come up with a good way to separate it from the salvage metal efficiently. I don't have that one figured out yet.

357maximum
12-29-2007, 12:04 AM
Jim

I use rubber mulch in a 3sided 2X2 square steel box with one end having a 2ft wood
bullet paster board and also a wood top like a dog house.

as far as separating...I was thinking ofworking with salt water seperating baths before I took a new job....I have not had time to mess with is since august...but I will, and I think it will work. at some point the rubber should floatin the brine if I am remembering some old chem classes correctly,,,

mtgrs737
12-29-2007, 12:44 AM
I built a bullet trap 25 years ago for my basement that worked fine. I would suggest that you decrease the slope of the steel back plate so that you get the bullet to slide down it rather than smash into it and break up. At the bottom of the slide the bullet needs to pass into a chamber that has a deflector plate set at an angle to stop the bullet or turn it into another deflector/stop plate and contain the lead shards and powder from getting out of the trap. You may lose a small amount of lead from the inpact on the first plate but the second impact and the one that stops the bullet should be in a confined area inside the trap. You can design a clean out door or device to retrieve the PB. Hand gun traps are simple to make, High velocity rife traps are more difficult.

Lloyd Smale
12-29-2007, 07:07 AM
I can bet one thing looking at your desing. the bottom 2x4 isnt going to last long. The bullet fragments are going to tear it up. But they it would be easy to replace. As to the lead dust. In the one i make thats what you end up with for the most part especially if your using harder alloys. When i empty my drum its about 3/4s full of just lead dust.
This side view (with wood removed) gives you a little bit better idea of how it's put together. The yellow line shows the angle of the bottom deflector plate & also where it ends.

JIMinPHX
12-29-2007, 08:47 AM
the bottom 2x4 isnt going to last long. The bullet fragments are going to tear it up. But they it would be easy to replace.

That's exactly what I figured.

It turns out to be correct. I had left that area open so that I could have a hole to empty out the catch bin. The damage to the wood was a little less than I had expected, but it is deteriorating. With a trap that small, it turns out that it is easier to just turn it upside down & empty it that way, so I'm going to weld up that opening.

This picture shows the wood that covered that opening.

JIMinPHX
12-29-2007, 08:51 AM
as far as separating...I was thinking ofworking with salt water seperating baths


That's a good idea. I know from scuba diving that ocean water is 34/33 times heavier than lake water. I'll have to see if I can find out what the maximum % solubility of salt is in water & compare that density to rubber.

JIMinPHX
12-29-2007, 09:13 AM
I would suggest that you decrease the slope of the steel back plate so that you get the bullet to slide down it rather than smash into it and break up.

That's on my list of things to try next. I was thinking of making some adjustable length legs for the back of my test trap so that I can vary the angle of the back plate until I get what I'm looking for. If you could let me know what angle you used, that would give me an idea of how much range of travel I should build into the adjustable legs.

Thanks,
Jim

mtgrs737
12-29-2007, 12:11 PM
My trap has been gone for years now, but I think that it was over 45 degrees. I would make it extra long and concentrate on the stop chamber as that is where bullet is stopped.

JIMinPHX
12-29-2007, 07:53 PM
357 Max's idea about using brine to separate crumb rubber from lead should work well. I did a little digging around & found that typical ocean water is 3.5% salt (4 oz salt per gallon) while the maximum % solubility of salt in water at 70 degrees F is about 26%. There is plenty of room to boost up the density of water with lots of salt.

This question still remains - will enough zinc leach out of the rubber to cause problems with recasting the recovered material?

Lloyd Smale
12-30-2007, 06:43 AM
thats one problem ive even ran into with my trap that needs some more thought when i have time. I put plywood on the front of it to staple targets too and when you smelt the lead it has ALOT of wood in it and it makes it a real bugger and a mess to resmelt.

imashooter2
12-30-2007, 10:38 AM
The problem you are going to run into with separating the rubber from the lead with water is that this lead will be very fine compared to WW. Once wet, it will not dry out easily and you will be forced to run every pot from a cold start just to be sure.

13Echo
12-30-2007, 12:22 PM
Not to mention the salt left on the lead unless you carefully rinsed it after separating.

Jerry Liles

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 01:02 PM
I found some rubber mulch last night. Lowe’s had it. It was $12 & change for a 0.8 cubic foot bag. This stuff is a little different from the black nuggets that the range builder guys seem to favor. The stuff that Lowe’s had is ground into flakes of varying size & it is colored to match redwood. The bag also says that it is recommended as a playground base. I think that this means that this stuff is the 99.9% wire free, highly processed variety. The black chunks may be the less expensive variety or it may have been chosen by the range guys because bigger chunks last longer. I don’t know.

I tried a float test with this stuff. It seems to be of varying density. I threw a handful into a little over a pint of water. At first most of it floated. After I stirred it around a little bit, about 95% sank. Adding an ounce of salt didn’t seem to do much. 2 ounces had some of the stuff on the bottom starting to stand up a little. 3 ounces had most of the material almost at neutral buoyancy in the water. 4 ounces had a fair amount floating. 5 ounces had most of it floating & with 6 ounces of salt in 20 ounces of water, nary a scrap was still on the bottom. This would be my recommended separation mix, 6 ounces of salt to 20 oz. of water or about 38 ounces (almost 2 1/2 pounds) per gallon.

I dumped most of the rest of the mulch into a 7 x 9 x 15” cardboard box, with a couple of cardboard separators in it. That will be my test set up to see how far boolits go through this stuff. I’ll check each cardboard separator for holes between shots to see how far each boolit went. I’ll keep trying hotter rounds until I hit the last separator or run out of ammo to test.

I don’t think that I’ll have problems with lead dust here. I don’t think that this box trap will break up the boolits. I also don’t see a problem with salt contaminating the recovered material. A fresh water rinse shortly after recovery should be enough to fix that.

I’ve also got my original steel trap, boolit trap Jr., set up with a nut hanging on the end of a string & a few hand drawn marks to show what angle the back plate is at. I want to try it at a bunch of different angles & see what angle I need to have so that the boolit gets into the decelerator chamber before it shatters. I’ll bring both the boolit box & boolit trap Jr. with me the next time I get out to my shooting area. It should be an educational day.

buster
12-30-2007, 01:05 PM
I tried to build a trap with a hinged back stop out of a old fireplace insert but it did'nt work. Thought it would soften the impact, so I tried to slow it down before it hit with two flaps of 1/2 in. rubber,but that did'nt work either.I gave up and am using a 30 in. locust log. I hope to split and burn it to retreive the lead.

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 01:35 PM
I just made a smaller version of the box trap & tried it with a pellet rifle. A 5mm pellet at 700fps went through the cardboard separators at 1" & 3" depth, but not the one at 5". The skirts of the pellets were bent a little, but the noses looked like new except for the points being dulled a little & the finish now having a sandy texture. I put them back in the gun & fired them again. The second time they did not pass the 3" marker. The skirts were more heavily bent on one side. I don't think that they were flying straight. I think that they were partially sideways when they hit the box & the larger broadside area is why they didn't penetrate as far.

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 01:44 PM
I was able to separate the pellets from the media by dumping it into a large box & shaking it around. The pellets went right to the bottom. When I tipped the box & gave it another gentle shake, they rolled right out to the side. I don’t think that I’m going to need the brine.

Scrounger
12-30-2007, 02:16 PM
I was able to separate the pellets from the media by dumping it into a large box & shaking it around. The pellets went right to the bottom. When I tipped the box & gave it another gentle shake, they rolled right out to the side. I don’t think that I’m going to need the brine.

Just like panning for gold...

Could you use the bigger chunks of rubber mulch and simply screen the lead out with half inch screen?

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 02:53 PM
Just like panning for gold...




Exactly!

The only problem that I see with screening, might be that small chunks of rubber are going to break off as this stuff gets used. that's just what I expect to see though. I will not know what's actually going to happen until I try it.

Scrounger
12-30-2007, 03:17 PM
Exactly!

The only problem that I see with screening, might be that small chunks of rubber are going to break off as this stuff gets used. that's just what I expect to see though. I will not know what's actually going to happen until I try it.

That is the point at which your salt water bath may become useful.

Ricochet
12-30-2007, 03:30 PM
Buy the salt in those big bags meant for deicing and it'll be reasonably inexpensive.

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 04:01 PM
Buy the salt in those big bags meant for deicing and it'll be reasonably inexpensive.

We don't have that here in Phoenix.
;-)

Ricochet
12-30-2007, 05:13 PM
Well, you're just really missing something!

fishhawk
12-30-2007, 06:21 PM
water softner salt...you do have water?

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 06:54 PM
Well, you're just really missing something!

Actually, I see enough of it when I visit Rogersville. That is down in your neck of the woods, isn't it? There's some pretty country down off the Lee Highway & 25e.

Also, I've spent some time up around St. Paul, Chicago & Buffalo. The heavy snow in places like that is one thing that I don't miss.

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 06:59 PM
water softner salt...you do have water?

Actually, Phoenix is in the Sonoran desert. Water is pretty scarce here too!

I was just joshin around about the lack of ice (& water) around here. I'm sure that I can find bulk rock salt or water softener if I go looking for it.

It is kind of strange though. If I go into an auto parts store here in town & ask for windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze, a lot of the guys don't know what I'm talking about. Most of them don't seem to carry ice scrapers either. If I go north a few hours to Flagstaff, all that changes.

floodgate
12-30-2007, 07:53 PM
JiminPHX:

"It is kind of strange though. If I go into an auto parts store here in town & ask for windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze, a lot of the guys don't know what I'm talking about."

Which brings up something I have been puzzling over; though we get mild freezes here, and hard freezes at higher elevations, all of the washer fluids I see in the local home improvement stores and auto parts places is marked "Good down to 32*F (0*C)" or something similar. Has the older, freeze-proof stuff we used to be able to buy been taken off the market for some reason??? ("Nanny strikes again!"). One place did have an anti-freeze WW fluid additive, but they were very cagey about what it was, how much to add, and offered it sorta "under the counter". WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

floodgate

Scrounger
12-30-2007, 08:12 PM
Yes, Floodgate. A fella in a gun shop (claimed to be a 'Forensic Chemist') was telling us that a good way to get rid of cats and birds without the neighbors knowing about it was to put out a bowl of the old type antifreeze. They drink it and they're history.

floodgate
12-30-2007, 08:21 PM
Scrounger:

That is certainly true for the old radiator type antifreeze (ethylene glycol), but that also attacks paint and wax, and was NOT the additive used in windshield washer fluid, since that blows all over the finish; I thought that it was one of the alcohols, maybe methyl alcohol (which IS toxic, but not as nasty as glycol). I'm still a bit baffled.

Doug

13Echo
12-30-2007, 08:21 PM
Antifreeze poisoning is a terrible way to die. The Ethylene glycol in the antifreeze tastes sweet. Once in the body it is converted to small crystals that clog vessels and the kidneys. Most animals die in agony with renal failure and seizures. I had a dog killed by some SOB that way. It wasn't pretty and it made me mad enough to want to feed some to whoever did it.

Jerry Liles

Scrounger
12-30-2007, 08:29 PM
Jerry, I am just relating the story, I would never hurt a cat or dog. Any killing of animals has been limited to hunting.

JIMinPHX
12-30-2007, 08:37 PM
The only place here in town where I've found the freeze proof windshield washer fluid is by the gas pumps at Fry's. Auto Zone, Pep Boys & Checker don't seem to carry it in this area. I don’t think that there’s anything cagey about buying it, it just costs more & since it doesn’t really freeze here in the valley anyway, they just don’t sell the expensive stuff because most people don’t need it. The last time that I went up through Flag, I made sure that I had some in the reservoir of the truck before I left. It was about 20 degrees once I got up over about 7,000 feet. Once up there the stuff is as common as dirt & can be had anywhere. It just ain’t easy to find here.

Ricochet
12-30-2007, 09:33 PM
The labels I've seen on windshield washer fluid in the past have mentioned methanol and ammonia.

brshooter
12-31-2007, 12:12 AM
I'm in Northern NY and looking at a gallon of windshield washer fluid, rated for -25 degrees F and contains Methyl Alcohol & contains a bittering agent. VOC content exceeds 35% so sale is prohibited in Texas,non-Type A areas in CA, certain counties in GA and Maricopa County, AZ. Picked up another gallon rated at -40 F, contains Methyl Alcohol and Propylene Glycol.

floodgate
12-31-2007, 01:44 AM
brshooter:

That prolly explains it, as I AM in California (*sob!*).

floodgate

PatMarlin
12-31-2007, 01:53 AM
I bought some windshield wiper fluid here in CA that was not supposed to freeze, and by the time we got up to Spokane it was frozen solid.. :roll:

JIMinPHX
12-31-2007, 11:10 AM
Phoenix is part of Maricopa County, so I guess that explains a few things. I have no idea why they would ban it here.

Scrounger
12-31-2007, 01:15 PM
Guys, in case you haven't noticed, liberals have moved into all the great retirement living places like Phoenix, Tucson, Denver, Las Vegas, Prescott, et al. They move there because they are so different and immediately start turning them into the places they left.

sundog
12-31-2007, 01:19 PM
Scounger, now THAT'S a rather astute observation that mostly cannot be argued with!

mauser1959
12-31-2007, 01:38 PM
I do not know if this idea will help you or not, but we use rail Road plates ( the base plates that ribbon rail sits on) as reactive targets and have not put a hole in them yet ; and we have shot them with some pretty big bores. If put on a 45 or more degree angle I think that it would take a pretty strong rifle to shoot through them . I know that my 44 magnum loads do not shoot through the plates. And on top of that the plates are cheap ; read that free for the taking. Either weld them up to the size that you want or because they already have 4 holes in them you could bolt them into the size that you want. Those plates carry millions of tons of frieght and have no damage done to them , so it would be a heck of a bullet that would hurt them as long as they are on an angle. Though I am sure that a Armor piercing round would go through them.

Ricochet
12-31-2007, 03:03 PM
My Dad always called those "fish plates."

JIMinPHX
12-31-2007, 03:34 PM
Guys, in case you haven't noticed, liberals have moved into all the great retirement living places like Phoenix, Tucson, Denver, Las Vegas, Prescott, et al. They move there because they are so different and immediately start turning them into the places they left.

Yes & that really fries my oysters.

BOOM BOOM
12-31-2007, 09:44 PM
HI,
I was thinking that a 30 degree slope would be better than 45.
What degree slope did you use?

spurrit
12-31-2007, 10:41 PM
That's on my list of things to try next. I was thinking of making some adjustable length legs for the back of my test trap so that I can vary the angle of the back plate until I get what I'm looking for. If you could let me know what angle you used, that would give me an idea of how much range of travel I should build into the adjustable legs.

Thanks,
Jim

Use all thread for the legs.

JIMinPHX
01-01-2008, 05:33 PM
Well, I hope that everyone is starting off the new year well. I decided to start off by trying a few more trap tests.

I started off with a 15” long box full of rubber mulch. The first shot that I took at it was with a .45. A 200-grain LSWC at 800fps penetrated 14-1/2” & wound up facing backwards in the box. I then switched to a .357. a 158-gr TC at 675fps penetrated 9” & stayed facing forward. A 130-grain RNFP at 1350FPS came out the back of the 15” long box. The two recovered boolits looked like they had gently coasted to a stop on a mountain of cotton candy. Except for the engraved lands & grooves, I could see no damage.

Next I set up bullet trap Jr., my little 3/8” steel plate trap. I started it out at 30 degrees & had at it with the .45 shooting a 200-grain LSWC at 800fps. The boolit still broke up into small fragments as it had before, but almost all the material was in the trap area this time. Next I changed the backstop angle down to 35, then 40 degrees. Results looked the same. The cardboard that I had used to close up the holes on the sides & bottom was still in tact.

The next thing that I did left me with a little feeling of trepidation. I set up a 11” long box full of the rubber mulch in front of the steel trap at a 35 degree angle & let a 150-grain Remington PSP fly from a 30-30. I thought that for sure I would poke a hole in that poor little metal test trap. To my pleasant surprise, the steel withstood the challenge. I could tell the spot where it had hit the backstop because that was the one clean & shiny spot on the whole surface. Everything was cleaned off of it, the mill scale, the lead residue from previous shots, everything. The biggest piece of the jacket that I found in the trap looked like about 20-25% of it. The core was powder & was mixed with the other powder in the trap. A lot of the rubber mulch ended up in there too, probably about 2 cubic inches of it.

I recovered about 650 grains of material total from the steel trap. Considering that I had sent 3 x 200 + 1 x 150 = 750 grains downrange at it, that is a huge improvement over my recovery ratio from the last time that I used this thing. I’m over 85% recovery now & more than 90% of that was in the trap chamber where it belonged. I still haven’t welded up the two little openings on the ends of the trap chamber & I have a little gap there between the metal & the wood, so I think I’m still loosing a little lead there. I expect that the recovery ratio should be over 90% if I close this thing up properly on the bottom.

Separating out the rubber mulch from the powder was a pain. I ended up using the salt water trick. It worked well, but was a little messy. I only mixed up about a cup of it. When I later removed the cardboard strip from the top two inches of the trap, it had some spatter marks on the inside, but almost nothing had gone through it.

I had really planned on making this into a big welding project with a lot of high tech calculations to choose the right materials, make an efficient decelerator chamber & keep the weight down so that I would be able to move the big behemoth thing around. Now that I’ve seen what I’ve seen, I’m kind of liking the box full of rubber concept. The convenience of getting whole bullets back is just too much to ignore. That lead powder from the steel trap is kind of a mess to deal with. I’m thinking that maybe I’ll make up a wooden box full of rubber with a steel back plate just as a safety to stop the fast movers that sneak through the rubber. That will probably be my next step.

PatMarlin
01-01-2008, 05:40 PM
Keep up the experiments. I would like to build one, but we have stumps and logs to shoot into. I'll reclaim it when the wood rots.. :mrgreen:

JIMinPHX
01-04-2008, 11:56 PM
Well, I took another crack at this boolit trapping thing again. I built a wooden box that was a little over 2 feet long out of some 7/16” OSB board that was on sale at Home Depot for under $7 per sheet, some 2 x 4s & some 2 x 2s. I also put a piece of 3/8 plate on the back, just to be sure that everything was going to stay inside of it, even the 30-30s. I also brought along a little 11 inch long cardboard box to try with .22s.

The 11-inch long box of rubber mulch worked well with 40-grain PMC sidewinders that have a claimed speed of 1250. I found them all between 8 & 10.5” deep. A Stinger went right through. So did an Agulia Super Max.

Next I moved up to the big wooden box, which had the rubber mulch packed tightly. I hit it with 7 200-grain .45’s at 800fps, 3 130-grain .357s at 1250fps, 3 158-grain .357s at 675fps & a couple of 30-30PSPs. Most of the .45s sunk in 11.5-13” deep with 2 going 17-18”. The 158-grain TCs went in 11.5-12”. The 130-grain RNFP at 1250fps went in 17-19” & to my surprise, the 150-grain 30-30 with a factory claimed speed of 2390 only went in 20” deep. I think that the 170-grain 30-30 with a claimed speed of 2200 was somewhere near there too, but I missed finding it when I was unloading the trap & I didn’t actually see it until after I was putting the rubber mulch back inside. Nothing hit the back wall so I know that it didn’t go that far. I had a piece of cardboard in front of the back panel & the cardboard didn’t have a mark on it. The boolits were all completely whole, except for the two 30-30 PSPs which mushroomed as they normally do & look to have retained almost all of their weight. I haven’t actually weighed them yet. A few boolits have dents in them where it looks like another boolit hit them. I guess that I must have been shooting with better than average accuracy a few times.

I’m wondering if the fast moving 30-30s stopped where they did because they had traveled through 20 inches of stuff or because they were within several inches of a hard backstop & the rubber was packing up tight against the hard backstop. I think that next I will try to shorten the box a little & see if the fast movers stop sooner. Does anyone else have any ideas or requests?

JIMinPHX
01-05-2008, 12:04 AM
Recovered from rubber mulch
(sorry about the condoms that are mixed in)

JIMinPHX
01-05-2008, 12:06 AM
Recovered from steel plate trap

357maximum
01-08-2008, 04:27 AM
Jim

Now you see why i chose the rubber.....whole bullet recovery.....I actually reloaded some 38spcl FMJ just to prove you could do it....looked kinda cool all pre-rifled and such...(I did run them through the lee push though first, just to be cautious).....maybe i will write csi and have them do an episode about the 12 groove right and left rifling...[smilie=1::roll:

I find 2 foot more than adequate, but i compress mine a bit with the slip on "doghouse" lid.

JIMinPHX
01-12-2008, 01:51 PM
Max,
Thank you for tipping me off to that.

JIMinPHX
01-12-2008, 02:00 PM
I just finished up a little more testing. The .30 cal mold that I had on backorder with Midway came in a few days ago & I finally got my first chance to take a crack at casting rifle boolits. The casting event had the usual little first time issues with needing to clean & lube the mold, but all in all, I got my first handful of boolits out of it with no unexpected trouble.

I tried the 150-grain .30 cal gas-checked RNFP 12-BNH slugs at velocities from about 1300-2000fps. The 1300fps slugs penetrated 23” into the crumb rubber & the slugs retained their shape pretty well. I was able to inspect the riffling’s engraving easily, which was one of my prime goals since I was using a microgroove barrel & I have been told stories about them tearing the riffling off of cast boolits. When I pushed these same pills at 2000fps, They ended up 24” deep in the crumb rubber & I found a dent 1/4" deep in the 2 x 4 that was an inch behind them. Apparently, they bounced back after denting the wood. The dent was bigger than the boolit, so I think that some rubber stayed in between them. Where two boolits hit the same spot, the dent was a little deeper. The front half of these boolits were pretty well smooshed up, but I could still inspect most of the rifling on the heals, which looked good even at this speed. The Remington PSPs that I had previously tried did not go as deep as the cast boolits did, even though they were traveling faster by nearly 400fps. I believe that the PSPs opened up sooner & therefore allowed their energy to be bled off faster.

I also tried some 150-grain .357 semi-wadcutters doing 1250fps, also at 12-13BNH. They went in about 22” & 1 of them broke in half. I think that it may have hit another boolit that was already in there. They maintained their shape pretty well. The bases were pretty well speckled with what looked like a bunch of small powder burn craters. I think that I am approaching the limit of what I can do without a gas check here.

I kicked up the speed of some 130-grain RNFPs to 1300 & found them mostly at 18” deep with 1 at 22”. The bases of these boolits had less speckling than the 150-s above. I am not sure if this is because H-110 burns hotter than Unique or if it is because the heavier boolit caused higher pressures.

I also tried some super max .22 Rimfires, which are the hottest thing that I have ever found in a .22. They went about 13-14” deep & opened up a little more than the Remington HPs that just sort of turned into a cylinder with rounded corners.

colbyjack
01-12-2008, 07:51 PM
This side view (with wood removed) gives you a little bit better idea of how it's put together. The yellow line shows the angle of the bottom deflector plate & also where it ends.

looks good, got a question. if you or someone shoots that with a full metal jacket or harder lead bullet could it come back at ya? looks like maybe if it hit the steel travels down hits angle iron maybe it could be directed back at the shooter.

target looks good, just asking cause i know 2 guys thats been hit by bullets coming back. could you make it deeper and make a catch pan and fill it with sand so maybe if it did go way in or deep the sand trap pit would stop it. itd be easy to sift to catch the lead.

i made some spinner and some steel plates to simulate IPSC plates. i used A-36 and i case hardend mine for 18 hours and then rehardend it for 3 hours with ammonia and oil quenched it. my test pin on 1018 material showed .080" case depth. i had to give it a temper to bring it down a hair. and i ended up with like a RC 51/52 or convert to a 500 brinell hardness. it holds up to all the pistols FMJ or lead. rifle only at a long distance, tested a spinner at 30 yards with a .223 69gr SMK and it made a diviot. can be welded i guess but i dont like divots or any dents in metal targets.

just becarefull if shooting with rifles or high power, it may penatrate the steel.

-chris

floodgate
01-12-2008, 10:04 PM
JIMinPHX:

Jim. I have been looking around; got some samples of both the gardening mulch and the "playground" type, then ckecked Wal-Mart and they had two types in stock: one was just irregular shreds, from woodchip bedding size on down; the other was irregular little cubes about the size of peas or canned diced carrots - about 1/4" on a side, 0.8 cu. ft. for $8.95 and $7.95 respectively. The "cubed" stuff looks like it would be easiest to handle and sort through. What type have you been using? (Photo???) I thought I'd get a metal locker box about 12" x 15" x 24"-30", cut a 10" x 12" section out of one end and screw a section of truck mudflap inside it with paper targets taped to the outside, pack it good & full and clamp down the lid. Maybe put it up on a wheeled frame to make it easy to handle at the range. I'll be shooting .38 Spl. and .44 Spl. at no more than 900 fps at 10-15 yds. to test the Bismuth/Tin alloy bullets for "leading", accuracy, etc.

I really appreciate your writeups on these experimental traps; it has saved me a lot of thinking and potential expense!

floodgate

JIMinPHX
01-12-2008, 10:19 PM
looks good, got a question. if you or someone shoots that with a full metal jacket or harder lead bullet could it come back at ya? looks like maybe if it hit the steel travels down hits angle iron maybe it could be directed back at the shooter.

target looks good, just asking cause i know 2 guys thats been hit by bullets coming back. could you make it deeper and make a catch pan and fill it with sand so maybe if it did go way in or deep the sand trap pit would stop it. itd be easy to sift to catch the lead.

i made some spinner and some steel plates to simulate IPSC plates. i used A-36 and i case hardend mine for 18 hours and then rehardend it for 3 hours with ammonia and oil quenched it. my test pin on 1018 material showed .080" case depth. i had to give it a temper to bring it down a hair. and i ended up with like a RC 51/52 or convert to a 500 brinell hardness. it holds up to all the pistols FMJ or lead. rifle only at a long distance, tested a spinner at 30 yards with a .223 69gr SMK and it made a diviot. can be welded i guess but i dont like divots or any dents in metal targets.

just becarefull if shooting with rifles or high power, it may penatrate the steel.

-chris
When a cast boolit hits the plate at 45 degrees, it shatters & the fragments go in every direction. About 20% of the spatter seems to want to come back out the front in tiny fragments. By the time you get to 40 degrees, that number is down below 10%. I went down as far as 30 degrees, but didn’t see any real difference after 40.

The material that is recovered after contact with the steel plate is mostly dust/powder. You also get a few chunks mixed in if the original slug was big & slow, like a .45. Cast or jacketed, they all seem to shatter on impact with the steel. This material would not be easy to separate from sand. It was a pain to separate from crumb rubber, even after I got that stuff to float.

This trap is just made from a piece of virgin 3/8” A-36 with no heat treat. I’ve hit it with a 130-grain 13BNH cast slug at 1250fps & a 200-grain cast slug at 800fps so far with no damage. I also hit it with one jacketed 150-grain soft point bullet from a 30-30 that had been slowed down by going through a small box of crumb rubber first. I don’t know the actual velocity that it hit with. I would estimate it to be around 1,000-1,500fps, but that’s just a guess. That bullet did not bounce back. It shattered like all the others, but knocked the mill scale off the steel where it hit. I found jacket fragments in the decelerator chamber with the other lead. It left the same few small shrapnel marks coming out through the top of the paper target, mostly in the top inch.

When the slug hits a backplate, almost all the shrapnel seems to want to stay within an inch of the plate. After it hits a second surface at a 90 degree angle, like the 3” steel sides, it deflects & seems to then want to stay within an inch of that plane. I probably could have gotten away with side plates that were half as wide as the ones that I used. I probably should have added 1” strips of metal under the side plates to catch the spatter that falls. I'm guessing that a 1” catch rim across the top of the trap would probably bring the ratio of recovered material up from 90% to about 97ish%.

It’s been my experience that BB’s will bounce back at you from a .22 trap that I had years ago, but pellets would not. I suppose that jacketed bullets might bounce back if the velocity was low enough to be below the threshold of elastic deformation of the jacket, but that’s pretty slow. An included angle of more than 90 degrees between the two backstop plates might make a bounce back more likely, but I didn’t try that.

So far, I haven’t exceeded the capacity of this backstop with anything that I have shot at it. I know from past experience that .308 ball ammo hitting a piece of 3/4" 1018 at a 45 degree angle will take a nasty chunk out of the plate & the bullet fragments will behave much like what I have described above. I’m not planning on hitting this little thing with any ball ammo from a high power rifle of any description.

The crumb rubber traps that I have been experimenting with have been showing promise for recovering boolits whole & also for stopping faster moving rifle rounds. See my last few posts here on this thread for more info on that.

colbyjack
01-12-2008, 10:28 PM
sounds like a good trap. looks good too. -chris

JIMinPHX
01-12-2008, 10:42 PM
JIMinPHX:

Jim. I have been looking around; got some samples of both the gardening mulch and the "playground" type, then ckecked Wal-Mart and they had two types in stock: one was just irregular shreds, from woodchip bedding size on down; the other was irregular little cubes about the size of peas or canned diced carrots - about 1/4" on a side, 0.8 cu. ft. for $8.95 and $7.95 respectively. The "cubed" stuff looks like it would be easiest to handle and sort through. What type have you been using? (Photo???) I thought I'd get a metal locker box about 12" x 15" x 24"-30", cut a 10" x 12" section out of one end and screw a section of truck mudflap inside it with paper targets taped to the outside, pack it good & full and clamp down the lid. Maybe put it up on a wheeled frame to make it easy to handle at the range. I'll be shooting .38 Spl. and .44 Spl. at no more than 900 fps at 10-15 yds. to test the Bismuth/Tin alloy bullets for "leading", accuracy, etc.

I really appreciate your writeups on these experimental traps; it has saved me a lot of thinking and potential expense!

floodgate


I’ve been using the stuff that looks like big chips of redwood. Now that I know I can get the little cubed stuff for less, I will probably try using that next. It was what I really wanted in the first place.

I started out just using a cardboard box full of the stuff & that worked OK until too many shots went to the same area, then the cardboard gave way. I’m now using a 26” long wooden box with 2 layers of 2 x 4 & a 3/8” steel plate for a just in case backstop. So far, the only thing to hit the back wall was a 30-cal 150-grain slug doing 2,000fps. It just put a dent in the first layer of 2 x 4. I’ve been using cardboard on the front face where the targets go. That’s been working out OK. This wood chip looking stuff really doesn’t seem to want to run out of a small hole in the cardboard the way that something like sand would. Right now, my box is about 10 x 14 x 26”. It weighs about 90 pounds stuffed with rubber. It’s 15 pounds less if I pull the plate off the back, which I do when moving it.

It sounds like your intended setup should work well. You might want to put a few layers of wood inside the back wall before you fill it, just in case.

This is the material that I used:

JIMinPHX
01-12-2008, 10:48 PM
The current wood box

JIMinPHX
01-12-2008, 10:50 PM
The back of the wood box with 3/8 plate in easy removal slot

PatMarlin
01-13-2008, 12:31 PM
looks good, got a question. if you or someone shoots that with a full metal jacket or harder lead bullet could it come back at ya? looks like maybe if it hit the steel travels down hits angle iron maybe it could be directed back at the shooter.

target looks good, just asking cause i know 2 guys thats been hit by bullets coming back. could you make it deeper and make a catch pan and fill it with sand so maybe if it did go way in or deep the sand trap pit would stop it. itd be easy to sift to catch the lead.

i made some spinner and some steel plates to simulate IPSC plates. i used A-36 and i case hardend mine for 18 hours and then rehardend it for 3 hours with ammonia and oil quenched it. my test pin on 1018 material showed .080" case depth. i had to give it a temper to bring it down a hair. and i ended up with like a RC 51/52 or convert to a 500 brinell hardness. it holds up to all the pistols FMJ or lead. rifle only at a long distance, tested a spinner at 30 yards with a .223 69gr SMK and it made a diviot. can be welded i guess but i dont like divots or any dents in metal targets.

just becarefull if shooting with rifles or high power, it may penatrate the steel.

-chris

You have any pics of your targets Chris?

PatMarlin
01-13-2008, 12:37 PM
I’ve been using the stuff that looks like big chips of redwood. Now that I know I can get the little cubed stuff for less, I will probably try using that next. It was what I really wanted in the first place.

I started out just using a cardboard box full of the stuff & that worked OK until too many shots went to the same area, then the cardboard gave way. I’m now using a 26” long wooden box with 2 layers of 2 x 4 & a 3/8” steel plate for a just in case backstop. So far, the only thing to hit the back wall was a 30-cal 150-grain slug doing 2,000fps. It just put a dent in the first layer of 2 x 4. I’ve been using cardboard on the front face where the targets go. That’s been working out OK. This wood chip looking stuff really doesn’t seem to want to run out of a small hole in the cardboard the way that something like sand would. Right now, my box is about 10 x 14 x 26”. It weighs about 90 pounds stuffed with rubber. It’s 15 pounds less if I pull the plate off the back, which I do when moving it.

It sounds like your intended setup should work well. You might want to put a few layers of wood inside the back wall before you fill it, just in case.

This is the material that I used:


Gosh darn I've got loads and loads of that stuff around my mill.

I know... how bout' "PatMarlins World Famous California Trap Filler" or PMWFCTF.

?.......:mrgreen:

JIMinPHX
01-13-2008, 02:19 PM
Pat,

It LOOKS LIKE big chips of redwood...not actually big chips of redwood.

Sorry about that.

PatMarlin
01-13-2008, 02:21 PM
What kind of chips are they?

JIMinPHX
01-13-2008, 02:57 PM
They're rubber mulch from Lowe's.

JIMinPHX
01-13-2008, 03:07 PM
The stuff is made from ground up car tires.

JIMinPHX
01-13-2008, 03:09 PM
Ya got to read the fine print

AZ Pete
01-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Jim, that has to be the best (most practical) idea for a bullet trap that I have seen. With the growing difficulty of getting wheel weights..for free.. I think that there is one of your designed traps in my future. I will have to be careful not to let one of the guys I shoot with use the trap though...he has shot the legs of my target stand 3 of 5 times I have let him shoot at it, and it's 16'' wide.

Thanks for sharing the results of your experiment.

spurrit
01-13-2008, 06:56 PM
Guys,

Just remembered a little tidbit from my past. Dressage (the dancing horses) riders use rubber footing from ground up tennis shoes for arena footing. Someone might look into that, as it's sold in bulk.

JIMinPHX
01-14-2008, 01:25 AM
JIMinPHX:

Jim. I have been looking around; got some samples of both the gardening mulch and the "playground" type, then ckecked Wal-Mart and they had two types in stock: one was just irregular shreds, from woodchip bedding size on down; the other was irregular little cubes about the size of peas or canned diced carrots - about 1/4" on a side, 0.8 cu. ft. for $8.95 and $7.95 respectively. The "cubed" stuff looks like it would be easiest to handle and sort through....
floodgate


Hey Floodgate,
Could I ask you a favor? I just tried 3 different Walmarts near me & none of them had any rubber mulch. Could you please take a box full of the stuff that you have & see how far a .22LR goes into it? That way I would have something to compare against what I saw with the material that I have & figure out which one works better.

Thanks,
Jim

floodgate
01-14-2008, 02:05 AM
JIM:

I'll pick up a bag of it next time I'm in Ukiah, probably the middle of the week, and give it a try.

Doug

spurrit
01-14-2008, 02:13 AM
For .22's, you may as well just use phone books.

Coastie
01-14-2008, 02:16 AM
My present trap is made of two 1/4" steel plates placed together on a 45 degree angle into a sand trap - the target is placed on a carpet remnant tacked to the trap frame in front of the plates. Haven't noticed any return splatter since using the carpet flap on the front of the trap. This set up works pretty well with lead bullents (mostly cast from wheel weights) - handgun or rifle, but I plan to try some heavy rubber sheeting in front of the plates when the weather clears up some. Some friends used my range while I was at work and they decided to to test a 8mm with some military surplus ammo. I don't recommend this trap for that level of ammo as it is a bit tough on the plates. I used the two plates rather than a 1/2" single plate as they have lasted longer that the single 1/2" plate I first tried and by rotating them I have been able to get a fresh surface. My only real problem is that screening the sand does not give full recovery of the lead, so I have read with interest the posts on the shredded rubber in the recovery bin. I appreciate everyones posts.

floodgate
01-14-2008, 02:23 AM
spurrit:

Jim wants to "calibrate" the cubed stuff I spotted against the shredded rubber mulch he has been trying. A .22 might interact with one of the chunks (about the same size as the bullet) and take off at an angle; or it might just burrow on through. We want to see how the various types of rubber mulch work to trap bullets without turning them to powder, the way the flat plates do.

floodgate

spurrit
01-14-2008, 09:55 AM
Ah, musta missed that. I was just trying to save time/trouble/money.

I still want to build that baffle tunnel thingy, but I'd be too tempted to use it in my back yard here in town.

PatMarlin
01-14-2008, 01:21 PM
Ya got to read the fine print


Waht will they think of next.. :coffee:

JIMinPHX
01-14-2008, 09:32 PM
I still want to build that baffle tunnel thingy, but I'd be too tempted to use it in my back yard here in town.

That’s a temptation that I have to fight every day…now that we have Shannon's law here.

spurrit
01-15-2008, 04:38 AM
You sure you don't want to delete that? I was talking about using it for load development and practice.

chinewalk
01-15-2008, 11:37 AM
Does anyone else have any ideas or requests?

Jim,

I was wondering if you are planning to try other calibers.

I don't know if you want to risk tearing up your trap, but it would be interesting to see if the size of your current box would hold up to heavy .44 mags or the .500s.

Ed

JIMinPHX
01-16-2008, 12:24 PM
You sure you don't want to delete that? I was talking about using it for load development and practice.

I was also talking about load development & practice. Shannon's Law prevents us from doing any shooting within city limits, even if we have a safe backstop & neighbors that don't mind the noise. The only exceptions are for air guns, blanks & justifiable self-defense.

JIMinPHX
01-16-2008, 12:26 PM
Jim,

I was wondering if you are planning to try other calibers.

I don't know if you want to risk tearing up your trap, but it would be interesting to see if the size of your current box would hold up to heavy .44 mags or the .500s.

Ed

I don't have, or have access to a .500. I'll try a .44 the next time that I get out shooting. I'm interested to see what that does too.

JIMinPHX
01-20-2008, 10:26 AM
it would be interesting to see if the size of your current box would hold up to heavy .44 mags.

Ed

I did a little more testing yesterday afternoon & found that hot .44's will need about a 3-foot deep crumb rubber trap.

I had tried 3 different .44s. The first was a 240-grain semi wadcutter Boolit at about 1,000fps. It went in about 23" deep. The next was a 240-grain at 1450fps. It went in 28-33 " deep. Finally I tried some 180-grainers @1800fps. They ended up about 30" deep.

In order to measure these depths, I had to increase the length of my trap from the 26" that I originally had. Since the original box trap was already 90 pounds, I did it by making a separate add-on box to go in front of it. The add-on was basically a 1-foot cube with cardboard on two opposing sides. The front cardboard held up well, but after a bunch of boolits went through the same area, the back side cardboard opened up a hole about 4" in diameter & the crumb rubber started to pour out when I removed the cube from the front of the main trap. Keeping the two sections of the trap up tight against each other helped while they were being used, but once I took it apart to take the stuff home, I had a little bit of cleaning up to do. For limited use, like a few shots, this would have been no problem. Otherwise, it could get a bit messy, but still be acceptable if portability needs to be maintained.

I tried a few other calibers too. A CCI .22Mag FMJ @1875fps goes from 14-22" deep. .Federal 22Mag hollow points @ 2300fps shatter pretty badly, with no piece retaining more than 1/3 of the original weight. They end up 10-12" deep. TNT HP's @ 2200fps break up worse than that.

A .223Rem FMJ @2950fps goes in about 21" & gets flattened out a little & bent sideways a bit. This was coming out of a 1:12 twist barrel which is a little slow for that slug, so the projectile may not have been properly stabilized. A faster twist may make that FMJ drill it's way in deeper. A 40-grain V-max @3200fps shattered badly. I found 2 of the 3 jacket heels about 11 or 12" deep. That’s all that was big enough to find. The heal fragments were 20% of the original jacket at best.

I also tried some .380s. I was surprised to find that my low power cast boolits over 3 grains of Bullseye ended up in the same place as factory FMJ ammo. They were all around 10" deep. This was done in a different crumb rubber box trap that was only 12" deep & had a back wall that was only made out of 1/8" plate backed by 3/8" OSB particle board. I had designed this one for .22s & was surprised to find that it held up to .380s so well.

13Echo
01-20-2008, 11:01 AM
I keep thinking how to stop a lead bullet without shattering it or burying it deeply into sand, sawdust, or rubber and I keep coming back to a trap using Kevlar. How about facing a box packed tightly with shreded rubber with a couple of layers of ballistic Kevlar. Unless you are shooting high power rifles it should stop just about any lead bullet you care to try and most jacketed pistol bullets. The packed rubber ahould provide a bit of "give" with relatively little rebound to help absorb the bullets energy and the spent bullets should just drop to a box in front of the trap. Armor quality Kevlar 50" wide sells for about $35 to $50 per yard. A good box made of steel would weigh much more and probably cost about as much. However, I don't know how many hits Kevlar can take before it no longer works. Comments?

Jerry Liles

JIMinPHX
01-20-2008, 11:07 AM
I’ve seen some guys at the gunshows selling kevlar vests. They often have a sample vest that has been “tested” along with the test projectile. That projectile is generally pretty smoshed up. The crumb rubber leaves the projectiles in pretty good shape, except for the fast moving varmint bullets. It’s really not that tough to separate boolits from crumb rubber. You just dump it into a big cardboard box & shake it around a little. They separate out pretty easily.

PatMarlin
01-20-2008, 12:40 PM
I also tried some .380s. I was surprised to find that my low power cast boolits over 3 grains of Bullseye ended up in the same place as factory FMJ ammo. They were all around 10" deep. This was done in a different crumb rubber box trap that was only 12" deep & had a back wall that was only made out of 1/8" plate backed by 3/8" OSB particle board. I had designed this one for .22s & was surprised to find that it held up to .380s so well.

Hail the cast boolit.. :Fire:

13Echo
01-20-2008, 02:19 PM
JIMinPHX,

I've no doubt gravity separation of lead from rubber is realtively easy, however, being fundamentally lazy, I'm trying to avoid sifting through a hundred pounds of rubber, sand, or oiled sawdust, especially if I can come up with a way to have the lead deposited in a nice, neat pile. Probably a pipe dream and, I suspect, even Kevlar will suffer some damage each time it stops a bullet till they finally slip through.

Jerry Liles

JIMinPHX
01-20-2008, 11:42 PM
Hail the cast boolit.. :Fire:

Ya know…
I probably should have seen that coming, but I didn’t. I should have realized that since the cast boolits are not deforming much at these velocities, they should penetrate at least as well as hardball, but somehow that expectation escaped me. I realized that the Rem psp soft points stopped faster than the cast 30-30s that I tried because the psp expanded & the cast did not. But I did not think that a slower moving cast .380 boolit would penetrate as far as a faster .380 FMJ. Now that I think about it some more, the jacket is less dense than it’s core or the cast boolit. This gives the cast boolit greater total density & probably explains why the cast does more with less umph behind it. To boot, it does more with less powder & less pressure too. Boy, talk about "progress" in jacket technology taking us a step backwards…. Sheesh!

Ricochet
01-20-2008, 11:46 PM
The jacketed factory bullet may not be going as fast at the muzzle as you think, either.

JIMinPHX
01-20-2008, 11:56 PM
The jacketed factory bullet may not be going as fast at the muzzle as you think, either.

This is true. I was going off of chrony numbers from a different lot of Independence FMJ ammo. I should really chrony both loads the same day when they are side by side under the same conditions.

JIMinPHX
01-21-2008, 12:27 AM
Another funny thing that I noticed was that the way the bullets opened up in the crumb rubber was pretty much identical to the way that they look when you recover them from an animal.

PatMarlin
01-21-2008, 12:27 AM
Boy, talk about "progress" in jacket technology taking us a step backwards…. Sheesh!

Kinda like what digtal has done for our old analog cell phones... :roll:

JIMinPHX
01-21-2008, 12:33 AM
I also had boolit trap Jr. (a 45 degree steel plate trap) along for the ride the other day. I threw a couple of .45acp hardball rounds at it to see what would happen. It held up well with no apparent damage. The jackets blew apart into a few large fragments. The cores blew apart into large, misshapen, somewhat flattened chunks. They did not shatter into powder like the cast boolits or the jacketed rifle bullet did. After the trap had been moved around quite a bit & there was ample opportunity for chunks to fall out on the ride home & from being moved around in my shop, I still recovered about 75% of what I sent downrange at it.

JIMinPHX
01-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Well, in the last month or so, I’ve learned a lot about boolit traps. I think that I’ve about reached the point where I have what I need to do what I want to do, so I’m probably going to break off the R&D work here. I’m going to write up a condensed version of the info that I now have & post it back on the first page of this thread. That way, anyone who stumbles in here in the future has the bulk of what they need to know easily at their fingertips without wading through all those posts about windshield washer fluid & other unrelated things that just sort of popped up. I would like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread. Without you, I would not have made the progress that I did.

Thanks,
Jim

JIMinPHX
01-23-2008, 06:00 PM
Hey,
I just found out that I can't edit the original opening post anymore. I had everything all written up that I wanted to put there. Ain’t that just a peach?

JIMinPHX
01-23-2008, 11:52 PM
I guess that I'll post the condensed version here -

This is a condensed version of the 6 pages that developed over the course of about a month. It gives you a pretty good snapshot of what I learned from this little project. I would like to thank all those who contributed & made this thread what it is.

Two different types of traps were tested. One had a 40-45 degree steel plate backstop & the other had a box of crumb rubber for the backstop. Each has its advantages & disadvantages. Since I needed my trap to be portable, only traps weighing less than 75-pounds were tested. In some instances, I used modular components that each weighed less than 75-pounds to make up something bigger. Traps that are larger than what I tried may give better performance.

Metal Plate Traps

What it was made out of -
I tried a few slight variations on a beefed up version of the .22 rimfire traps that are available commercially for about $50. I used a piece of 3/8" A-36 hotroll plate for the backstop. This is a garden variety steel plate that any steel supplier should have available. It is similar in formulation to 1018 cold roll bar stock. The A-36 is a tad higher in carbon, manganese & silicon, but not that much.

What happened to various boolits that hit it -
The steel plate traps had a tendency to break up the boolits pretty badly. 12-13BNH pistol boolits traveling between 700-1300fps turned into powder when they hit the steel. .45 cal semiwadcutters left some slightly larger chunks behind, but even they were mostly reduced to powder. .45acr 230-grain hardball left behind much larger chunks that were pretty flat & very little powder. Their jackets were torn apart. When the cast boolits shattered, the fragments went in every direction, including a small percentage that came back out the front. Reducing the angle of the backstop plate from 45 to 40 degrees greatly reduced the back spatter. I did not test angles past 30 degrees. The difference between 30-40 degrees seemed negligible from visual observation. When the boolits shattered, the fragments mostly stayed within about an inch of the plate that they had hit. Metal side guards of more than 2” wide are not really needed. The decelerator chamber at the bottom of the trap caught most of the material when the backstop was at 40 degrees. Enclosing the rest of the target area with wood, or even cardboard contains almost all the rest of it.

What it will withstand -
The 3/8 plate showed no signs of damage from 13BNH 130-grain cast boolits at 1300fps, 150-grain @ 1250fps or 200-grain @800fps. Commercial 230-grain hardball also did not seem to cause damage. I know from something that I saw many years ago that a .308fmj hitting a piece of 3/4” 1018 at a 45 degree angle will take a big chunk out of the steel, so I didn’t try any hot rifle calibers on this trap.

How big & heavy are they?
A trap that is big enough to hold an 8-1/2 x 11” sheet of paper weighed 27 pounds. A trap that was big enough to hold a 10-1/2 x 12” standard pistol target weighed about 45 pounds. I used wood in the areas where steel wasn’t needed to keep the weight & cost down.

Crumb Rubber Box Traps
Apparently some other people, like 357Maximum here on the board have been shooting into crumb rubber with good results, so I decided to try that for myself.

What is Crumb Rubber?
Crumb rubber is a salesman’s buzzword for chopped up old car tires. It is also sometimes sold as “rubber mulch” or long lasting mulch. The mulch comes in landscape grade & playground grade. The playground grade has some ASTM rating for fall protection & this stuff is also guaranteed to be 99.9% wire free. It’s the most expensive variety of this stuff out there. Lowes by me sells it in 0.8 cubic foot bags for about $14. Lower grades in bulk can be had for as low as $0.17/lb. It is usually about 25-30 lbs./Cf. Other people have reported Walmart carrying it for less, but my local stores did not have it.

What happened to various boolits that hit it –
This is the real advantage of the crumb rubber trap. You can recover whole boolits in most cases. 12-13BNH boolits traveling from 700-2100fps stayed intact. The ones that didn’t hit the hard stop at the back of the box retained their shape very well. Even the ones that bounced off the back wall & put a 1/4” dent in the 2x4 back there were only mashed up about half way back. Other types of bullets, like soft point 30-30 hunting ammo expanded as they normally would in game animals if they didn’t hit bone. Retained weight was excellent. Only thin-jacketed fast-movers like .22mag hollow points & .223 V-max bullets broke up badly.

What will it withstand?
If you have a deep enough box of this stuff, you can hit it with just about anything. I’ll list a chart of various boolits & how deep they went on average so that you can get an idea of what you need for different calibers that you might want to use.



Caliber Weight Speed Average Depth
.22LR 30 gr 1300 13.5”
.22LR 40 gr 1150 12”
.22LR 40 gr 1050 10”
.22Mag 40 gr FMJ 1875 14-22”
.22Mag 30 gr HP 2300 10”
.22Mag 30 gr TNT 2200 12”
.223 40-gr V-max 3200 11.5”
.223 55-gr ball 2950 21”
.380 90FMJ 830 10”
.380 100 LRN 850 10”
.357 130 LRNFP 1300 19”
.357 150LSWC 1250 23”
.357 158 TC 675 11”
.45 200 LSWC 800 14.5
.44Mag 240LSWC 1000 23”
.44Mag 240 FP 1450 30.5”
.44Mag 180-grain FP 1800 30”
.30 cal 150RNFPGC 1300 23”
.30 cal 150RNFPGC 2000 25.5”
.30cal 150 gr Rem PSP 2390 20”

That last one didn’t go as deep as the slower cast boolits of the same diameter & weight because the PSP mushroomed & dumped it’s energy sooner. 140 of 150 grains were recovered in a single chunk. 150 grains were recovered in one chunk from a 170-grain PSP, but I didn’t get an accurate measurement of it’s depth.

How big is it & what does it weigh?
The crumb rubber box traps are a bit bigger than the steel traps are. My big trap was 90 pounds when ready to go. If I pulled the safety plate off the back, it was 75 pounds. That was as heavy as I was willing to call portable. It had 26” of depth with 2 layers of 2 x 4 & a 3/8” steel plate on the back as a safety stop. It had a big enough face for an 8-1/2 x 11” sheet of paper.

A similar box trap that was designed for general pistol use & had a face big enough to hold a 10-1/2 x 12” pistol target was 22” deep. It had a 1/8” steel plate backed by 2 x 4s for a safety stop. It weighed in at about 65 pounds. A 12” deep, by 2 foot wide trap with 1/8” steel + 3/8” OSB on the back for nonmagnum rimfires & light pistol loads weighed about the same.

A 12” cube with cardboard on two opposing ends that I used for a trap extension weighed about 27 pounds. I used this in front of the main trap to test the hot .44 Mag loads.

I framed these out with 2 x 2 & 2 x 4s. I used 3/8” or 7/16” OSB particle board for the panels. I assembled everything with drywall screws.

Jack Straw
01-25-2008, 07:43 PM
Thanks for all the research and info... this has been quite an interesting read.

How did you cover the front opening of the crumb rubber box to keep the crumbs in? I'm sure it was somewhere in the 6 pages, but I must have missed it.

Jack

JIMinPHX
01-25-2008, 09:38 PM
Thanks for all the research and info... this has been quite an interesting read.

How did you cover the front opening of the crumb rubber box to keep the crumbs in? I'm sure it was somewhere in the 6 pages, but I must have missed it.

Jack

Cardboard

colbyjack
02-02-2008, 01:31 AM
so if one was making a basement trap for .22 and a stray .45 acp. should one use the 45* angle and plate steel trap? or should one be better off with a box trap made of wood with rubber mulch in it?

we need more pics just for the helll of it.. lol -chris

JIMinPHX
02-02-2008, 10:05 PM
If you want the smallest trap possible, then you want the steel plate trap. If you want to recover whole bullets instead of lead powder, then you want the box trap.

For indoor use, you are probably better off with the box trap. Lead dust in the basement is probably not something that you want extra of.

JIMinPHX
02-02-2008, 10:11 PM
The jacketed factory bullet may not be going as fast at the muzzle as you think, either.

Give the man a cigar!

I just chrony'd a few loads side by side & Ricochet's suspicions were right on the mark. I have made the appropriate corrections to the .380 data above.

chinewalk
02-06-2008, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE=JIMinPHX;274559]I did a little more testing yesterday afternoon & found that hot .44's will need about a 3-foot deep crumb rubber trap.

Jim,

It looks like you are getting there with a good solution for all of us! I think I will try a box a little bigger and see what will hold up to the .500s using your design. It probably won't be portable, but in my case that will not be a problem.

You mentioned that instead of using the premium rubber mulch from Lowes that "lower grades in bulk can be had for as low as $0.17/lb". Can you provide some sources? Going bigger is really driving the price up on the rubber.

Ed

JIMinPHX
02-06-2008, 06:07 PM
http://www.tirerecyclingcrumbrubbershredder.com/rubber-crumb.html

These guys offer crumb rubber for $0.17/lb in bulk for all the sizes that they carry. Their minimum is $250 which translates to about 1,500 pounds or about 40 cubic feet. They also sell a “sample” for $150.

Bigger sizes are probably less likely to fall out of the boolit holes that you make in the cardboard. I haven't tried smaller sizes yet. Floodgate was saying that he had found some smaller cubes, but I didn't hear any feedback from him on how well they worked.

These guys at the web address above sell the machines to make the crumb rubber too.
Hey Pat Marlin, did you say that you wanted to get into selling this stuff?

floodgate
02-07-2008, 12:30 AM
JIMinPHX:

Sorry, but with the rains and other stuff going on, I just haven't gotten back to the crumb rubber. The Wal-Mart 1/4"+/- cubed stuff was $5.39 for 0.8 cu ft., which went about 20 lbs. per bag (about $0.27/lb.) and each bag nicely fills a 5-gal plastic barrel. I'm now frantically drinking my way through a bunch of those 5-liter boxes of "bag-wine"; each box is about 3-3/4" deep x 10-1/2" high x 9-1/2" high (nice size for short-range targets), and I'll set them in 10-ream Xerox paper boxes, about four to a carton, two or more cartons end-to-end. Then lift each one out until I come to the last one with an entry hole and no exit hole, dump it and sift out the bullet. That is, when the "round tuit" I've ordered from Midway gets here - it's on backorder now). Gotta go drink up some more of that bag-wine...

floodgate

mroliver77
02-07-2008, 10:24 AM
Our WalMart dont carry the stuff. They looked at me like I was speaking Russian when I asked. They have no mulch of any kind in the winter months. They are starting to put out spring items now. I will hit the landscape yards when it warms a little. I asked at an indoor range down by the city and they use rubber for their backstop. They use a big vacuum to lif it and the lead can be shoveled out. Sounds really good to me. I have a vacuum head designed to fit on a drum with a 3" suction hose. For a small 20 yard range in the barn this should work well.
J
J

JIMinPHX
02-10-2008, 12:20 PM
Our WalMart dont carry the stuff. They looked at me like I was speaking Russian when I asked.

I got that response from my local Walmarts here in Phoenix too.

njmj
02-10-2008, 02:28 PM
There are a couple ranges in my area that have steel traps. One is a three hundred yd. range where highpower rifles are comon. The plate is at a 22 1/2 degree angle and is uneffected by fmj ammo. Fifty cal/. fmj does dent it badly though. I don't know how thick the plate is but am guessing it is no thicker than 3/8". The shallower the angle the less small fragments and dust there will be. There should be some sort of deceleration chamber also. A piece of 8 or 10" pipe welded tangent to the opening in the back of the trap will act as a decelerator. A slot in the bottom will allow the spent bullets to drop into a bucket. Because of the slight angle of the plate, traps of this type require more space front to back so are better for outdoor ranges where room is more available. Traps for basements usually must be more compact so this design may not be suitable. For a really nice design look at Savage bullet traps. NJMJ

bobthewelder
02-10-2008, 04:15 PM
Our local indoor range uses 1/4" on their carriers at 45* to the ground. I have replaced the hinges on many, but the plate only shows smears from all calibres of pistol bullets, not holes, or dents. I replaced the 1/2" swiss cheesed high power carrier with leaf springs at 45*. Smears and a broken weld which was actually ripping from the base material. These have held up through tons of high powered shots since before deer season. Leaf springs are hard! Just don't use steel cored surpluss ammo and your 3/8" plate should be fine.

chrisx1
02-10-2008, 07:00 PM
How about using a truck mud flap or some conveyer belting for the entry side instead of cardboard? Might stay together longer?

Also, have you done any long term testing on the rubber chip design? What happens after hundreds of rounds are shot into a box? Will the lead settle to the bottom of the trap as more rounds come in?

JIMinPHX
02-10-2008, 07:22 PM
I haven’t tried mudflaps or belting. They probably would last longer. The real low power gallery loads that I sometimes use might bounce back at the shooter though. That’s why I stuck with cardboard. I can get a few hundred rounds through a sheet of it before it needs to be replaced. 30 seconds with a staple gun takes care of it. The mudflap/belting idea might be real good for the back side of my extension box that I’ve been using in front of my main trap for high power rifle rounds.

After the box traps get a bunch of use, especially with larger calibers, tunnels tend to form in the rubber mulch & the boolits go in deeper because they travel further before hitting the first layer of resistance to their motion. This is especially true if you are shooting very small groups. This is why I put a hard stop at the back of my traps.

After the tunnels form, new boolits sometimes hit old boolits that are already in there & boolits start getting mashed up & can even break in half. I’ve only had a few get mashed up. I’ve only had one break in half so far. I think that each time I use it, I get a few more small rubber chips & a few less big rubber chips. I have not seen the boolits drop to the bottom yet. I have not fired more than about 75 or 100 rounds before recovering my boolits & fluffing things back up in the process. So far, I’ve only been using these things for load development & test shots. By the time I’m 100 rounds into it, my test ammo is spent & my wife is tired of shooting her little pocket auto. I haven't given any of the traps a real serious workout yet.

I’ve got too many of these things now & I’m thinking about getting rid of all but 1 or 2 of them since I’m done with my tests. I may put a post over in the swapping & selling area pretty soon.

BOOM BOOM
06-17-2008, 11:22 PM
Hi,
Well The Pistol Trap Is Finally Built With The Great & Patient Help Of Rassmusson Inc.
My Original Designs Were Much Improved By His Input. He Changed The Angles Slightly, Changed It To A Flattened 4 Sided Cone /funnel Shape.
This Redused Costs & Wt.
It Is On 2 Wheels & Can Be Moved Like A Wheelbarrow ,very Stable. I Use A 6' Ramp To Get It In & Out Of My Toyota Truck. As It Is Too Heavy To Just Lift As I Am Now Pushing 60.
In Fact It Is So Heavy I Will Probibally Not Build The Planned Rifle Trap.
It Is Buil Out Of 3/8" Plate W/ Some 1/2" Welded At Rear.
There Is A Vertical Decelerator Pipe At Rear W/ A Removeable Top For Any Repairs If Needed.
The Decelerator Pipe Empties Into A Welded Bucket Made Of 1/2" Pipe & Plate.
I Used Used 2 Rubber Mats , The Type Commonly Use To Staple/tape Targets To On Commercial & Police Ranges.
1st Test Was W/38+p Lead 180gr. 50 Rounds, Then 38+p Jacked 6 Rounds, No Prob. At All, In Fact 2 Lead Bullets Did Not Compleatly Exit The Rubber Baffels In Front.
2nd Test Was V. Hot 180gr. Lead 357 50 Rounds. No Prob.
Then 6 Rounds V. Hot Jacked. 2 Small Scraches On Pipe.
Will Do Another Test On Thurs. Using 5 Rubber Mats On Front.


2nd Test Was W/

BOOM BOOM
06-24-2008, 06:59 PM
HI,
2ND TEST WAS W/ 5 OF THE RUBBER FLAPS (XSPORT RUBBER MAT MADE IN PRICE UT.) MATS ARE ABOUT 1/2" THICK RUBBER W/ NYLON FIBERS W/ AN OCCASIONAL STEEL WIRE .
USED 50 HOT 357'S 180GR. Pb BULLET (1,300'/S) & 20 7MM/06 SQUIB LOADS (1300'/S W/ 168GR. Pb BULLET). FIRED AT 50 YDS. NO PROB. A FEW BULLETS DID NOT EXIT MATS.

yondering
06-28-2008, 12:37 AM
OK, I built a bullet trap tonight; it's pretty crude and very simple, but I think it'll work. I bought some rubber mulch from Lowe's, I got 2 bags ($12.95 ea for 0.8 cu ft) but only needed one, which almost fills a 5 gallon bucket. It's made from shredded tires. They also had some for $9.95 that was 1/4" chunks, but I figured the shredded stuff would be less likely to come out the holes.
I got lucky and found a piece of scrap steel that's round and fits the bottom of the bucket, so I drilled a hole and bolted it to the bottom, on the inside. Then I filled the bucket with the rubber mulch, and cut 3 pieces of carpet to fit the top 2" or so of the bucket. I taped a piece of cardboard over the mouth of the bucket, and I'll just tape or staple targets to that. I've only shot it with my .22, but I think it'll hold up to at least medium 45 Colt loads. I'll try some heavy loads just to see how it does, and maybe some .223 as well.
I think the lead will separate out if I just shake the bucket a bunch, hopefully it will all just sink to the bottom.

BOOM BOOM
06-29-2008, 09:40 PM
HI,
TEST 3,
50 YDS. 11 layers of rubber baffels/flaps
-44 MAG. 250GR. Pb bullet on top of 20grs. Wc820 . good results. 4-5 of the 50 rounds did not exit the last flap all the way.
100YDS- 7MM/06, 168 GR. Pb bullet on top of 24.5grs IMR4198 w/ DACRON FILLER.
GOOD RESULTS. A few of the 50 7MM bullets did not exit the last flap.
No damage to the trap, fair amount of Pb dust

yondering
07-01-2008, 01:34 PM
I tried out some mid-level and heavy 45 Colt loads on my bucket trap. The mid-level loads (260gr SWC at 1,050 fps) were stopped at the steel plate with no issues. Some of these did not make it to the plate at the bottom of the bucket, and were stopped in the rubber.
The heavy 45 Colt loads (300gr and 330gr hard cast over 23gr H110) penetrated all the way to the bottom of the bucket and splattered on the steel plate. Some fragments started to exit the sides of the bucket. I think a piece of 3/16" flat bar bent in a circle around the inside base of the bucket would take care of this.
I also fired some .223 40gr V-Max and 55gr SP loads into the bucket, as well as some 6mm 70gr TNT bullets at 3,900 fps. None of these reached the steel plate, all were stopped in the rubber, and all of them fragmented beyond recognition.

My one complaint with this shredded rubber is that the lead won't separate to the bottom easily when it is shaken. The rubber shreds compact together too well, so it's hard to get the small pieces out.

JIMinPHX
07-01-2008, 03:36 PM
splattered on the steel plate. Some fragments started to exit the sides of the bucket. I think a piece of 3/16" flat bar bent in a circle around the inside base of the bucket would take care of this.


1/8" hot roll flat bar will work fine. That's what I've been using to stop side spatter on my steel traps.

SPRINGFIELDM141972
07-01-2008, 03:47 PM
I believe I read that someone was going to try to use water to float the rubber from the bullets. Did this this get tried and did the rubber float? Thanks, I couldn't find the results in the thread.

Regards,
Everett

yondering
07-01-2008, 04:33 PM
I believe I read that someone was going to try to use water to float the rubber from the bullets. Did this this get tried and did the rubber float? Thanks, I couldn't find the results in the thread.

Regards,
Everett

I tried it, the rubber doesn't float. Somebody posted here about making a salt water solution, and the rubber floated with enough salt in the water. I didn't try that, maybe after I shoot a lot of lead into the trap it'll be worthwhile.

BOOM BOOM
07-01-2008, 06:06 PM
HI,
FORGOT TO MENTION IN DESCRIPTION THAT THE PLATES ARE ON A 22&1/2 DEGREE ANGLE.
RESULTS SO FAR:

150 ROUNDS 180GR. Pb HARD CAST, WARM LOADS 38 SPECIAL NO DAMAGE TO TRAP USE 2-3 RUBBER FLAPS TO REDUCE Pb POWDER. 6 ROUNDS JACKED +P NO DAMAGE.

240 ROUNDS 180GR. Pb HARD CAST, VERY HOT LOADS! 357 NO DAMAGE TO TRAP.
USED 5-6 R. FLAPS TO REDUCE Pb POWDER. 6 ROUNDS JACKED 2 SMALL SCRACHES ON DECELERATOR PIPE.

50 ROUNDS 250GR. Pb HARD CAST, HOT LOADS, 44 MAG NO DAMAGE TO TRAP.
USE 11-12 R. FLAPS TO REDUCE Pb POWDER.

200 ROUNDS 168GR. PB AIR COOLED TW. SQUIB LOADS (1,300'/S), 7MM/06 NO DAMAGE. USED 5-6 R. FLAPS.

20 ROUNDS 168GR. HARD CAST MID RANGE LOADS (1,800-2,000'/S), 7MM06 NO DAMAGE. USED USED 11-12 r. FLAPS TO REDUCE Pb POWDER.

ALL FIRED AT 50YDS. NOW.
ANOTHER ADVANTAGE TO THE R. FLAPS IS THERE IS NOTHING COMING BACK OUT THE FRONT OF THE TRAP. RICORCHIE MIGHT BE A PROBLEM W/ STEEL PLATES AT LESS THAN A 45 DEGREE ANGLE.:Fire:

RP
07-01-2008, 07:26 PM
And yes if you make a brime solution the rubber will float and save it because it wont go bad and it will kill the grass if you dump it out

leftiye
07-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Kill the grass? I spend all summwer trying to kill the grass. Problem is it kills the ground too, like forever.

Boomer Mikey
07-04-2008, 03:12 PM
I cleaned out and changed the sand in my bullet trap today so I decided it was a good time to take a few pictures to share with you.

I don't have the luxury of being able to shoot on my property here in the city but about five years ago I decided to make a bullet trap for use in my workshop to use for barrel break-in and checking pressure levels of loads before loading up a bunch of test loads that I would need to tear down after a trip to the range.

My long time shooting friend J.D. moved to Barstow when the Navy closed down Mare Island Naval Shipyard and he had the audacity to take his bullet trap with him when he left. After wasting a bunch of time and procrastinating for 5 years I built this trap.

The old advertising slogan "three rings of steel" came to mind when I built this and as you can see from the pictures nary a bullet as ever struck the 1-1/2" thick hockey puck on the bottom of the trap.

I've fired full power 338 WinMag into this (my proof test).

The bottom two rings and the hockey puck are welded to a bottom plate that's sitting on the bottom of the barrel. The barrel is 3/8" thick, the bottom is 1/2" thick and the top 3/8" thick.

Another ring is welded to the top so a bullet can't be launched at any angle or bounce off another surface at an angle that could result in it getting out of the barrel.

A full bag of 30 grit sand fills the bottom half of the barrel and layers of shop cloths and old cotton towels surround the ring welded to the top creating a noise baffle system. The barrel is vented to the rear at the top for gasses to escape.

I fired several 308's into the barrel last night starting a barrel break-in cycle on my new M1A, you can see what's left of the 30's in the middle of the recovery pile.


Boomer :Fire:

Thumbnails:

Mister Tom
07-05-2008, 12:01 PM
Has anyone tried making a trap out of hardplate such as AR400 or AR 500 ? Where I work we use it for fabricating wear plates on anything from heavy equipment buckets to steel mill parts. The stuff is plenty hard, resists abrasion and does not like to deform either. I made some cutting edges and teeth for a bucket on my small backhoe last year and they look like they day I made them after going through rocks and sand. I imagine it would stand up to the most punishing of loads.

Next time I do some shooting I will give a scrap piece a torture test and post the result.

cropcirclewalker
07-11-2008, 08:03 PM
For the past few years I have been shooting into oak logs. Maybe 14" dia. Rifle mostly and cast. After a few hundred rounds the log starts to crack and disintegrate but I have another log just like it behind and like that.

Once the log falls apart I put the pieces in the lid of an old aluminum gas grill (cock the grill lid so that there is a corner lower than the rest) and set it afire. Next morning I go out and carry the lid over to my hydrant where I start a slow flow of water into it. Ash and unburnt wood floats out and I am left with a puddle of lead and lotsa little bbs. Let the whole thing dry (I only recover a log every few months) and it is ready to dump back into my smelting pot.

Lately I have been thinking about Walmart bags.

You all know they are plentiful. Instead of the rubber crumbs. How would one shred up a bunch of Walmart bags easily?

BOOM BOOM
08-03-2008, 09:49 PM
HI,
Well I have made some modifications.
I cut off the metal tabs that I was bolting the rubber flaps to at the bottom, also I cut off the lower part of the vertical decellerator pipe to make easier to wheel.
Have fired over 1000 rounds of hot 357, 44's-50 rounds, 150- 38"s, and at least 750 - 7MM/06 into it most all at 50 yds. All save a few 38 & 357 rounds were cast.
When I moved to the mid-range velocity (about 1800-2000'/s) 7MM/06 loads the removable cap to the pipe rose up under impact so I am loosing about 1/2 the Pb out the top.
Only solution is to put something real heavy on it to hold it down or just weld it down , as far as I can see.
Also the rubber flaps are starting to look like shreaded wheat. I did assume at the start that I would have to replace them from time to time.

Blackwater
09-05-2008, 09:35 PM
FWIW, I've been thinking along similar lines, and have concluded that, despite a bad back, probably the best idea for me is to simply drive some small treated posts into the ground and have some dirt and/or clay dumped in a pile over it. The posts should give some support to the pile, at least for a while, but will need a bit of shovelling now and then to keep it near its original height. At least the clay/sand/dirt will trap the lead for future recovery. With all the talk about banning lead, we MAY have need of conserving what we've got at some time in the not too distant future. Digging several hundred pounds of lead out, washing it off and remelting it will at least leave us with SOMETHING to shoot. I'm lucky. I can put it in my back yard, and if I shoot through my fence gate, I can get about 100 yds. range to boot, depending on where I put my bench. I've got some land where I can shoot long range, up to @ 550 yds., which is fortuitous, though my real aspirations stop at closer to 300 with cast. I may have to put up a 2nd bank to shoot into at the farm for the longer ranges. Heck, I know I will, but if nothing else, I'll know where to find some lead. There's a lot to be said for that these days.

Artful
09-15-2008, 10:07 PM
Has anyone tried making a trap out of hardplate such as AR400 or AR 500 ?
Next time I do some shooting I will give a scrap piece a torture test and post the result.

I have metal targets out of AR500 which takes rifle fire with FMJ just fine - No AP
I have welded some mild steel channel for feet, and if I miss (hit low) the rifle rounds punch clean holes thru the channel iron feet.

This is my second set, first set after 20 years use started to get stress cracking and have chunks chip off. I had shot over 1/2 a ton of lead at them and I just passed 'em on to friend who does shooting mainly with 9mm and 38's so I figure he'll get a few more years use out of them.

if you made a moveable plate hinged so that the bullet is funneled and lifts the plate to dissapate the energy I could see using hard plate.

sheepdog
04-15-2009, 05:14 PM
think about making a starter rubber mulch bullet trap box for reclaiming lead, would like to get some feedback on it. Want to do a paper 17.5x9.5x11.5". Will insert "cassettes" of federal express "small box" inserts that are 11x13x1 3/4" each down the length. This should give me 10 boxes deep of 1.5 inch rubber mulch with a shooting area of 13 tall by 11.5 wide.

Question is will this be deep enough to stop 357 mag, 7.62x25, etc high energy rounds? I hear 31" is enough for rifle so hoping so.

JIMinPHX
05-03-2009, 11:23 AM
The depth of penetration seems to depend on velocity & boolit weight. Surprisingly to me, boolit diameter does not seem to have much effect. A 200 grain .357 @1,000fps seems to go to about the same depth as a 200 grain .45 at the same speed. Boolit style doesn't seem to mean much either. Round nose or wadcutter seem to be the same. A thin skinned varmint boolit that blows apart easily is the exception to that rule. The ones that break up, seem to then act as several smaller boolits & not go as deep. Somewhere, several pages back in this thread, I posted a bunch of depth data. I'll post a quick general sampling here for convenience. Be aware, that if you shoot small groups (i.e. a lot of boolits hit the same spot) then a tunnel will form in the crumb rubber & the boolits will go much deeper.


Caliber Weight Speed Average Depth
.22LR 30 gr 1300 13.5”
.22LR 40 gr 1150 12”
.22LR 40 gr 1050 10”
.22Mag 40 gr FMJ 1875 14-22”
.22Mag 30 gr HP 2300 10”
.22Mag 30 gr TNT 2200 12”
.223 40-gr V-max 3200 11.5”
.223 55-gr ball 2950 21”
.380 95FMJ 950? 10”
.380 100 LRN 850 10”
.357 130 LRNFP 1300 19”
.357 150LSWC 1250 23”
.357 158 TC 675 11”
.45 200 LSWC 800 14.5
.44Mag 240LSWC 1000 23”
.44Mag 240 FP 1450 30.5”
.44Mag 180-grain FP 1800 30”
.30 cal 150RNFPGC 1300 23”
.30 cal 150RNFPGC 2000 25.5”
.30cal 150 gr Rem PSP 2390 20”

sheepdog
05-04-2009, 02:27 PM
Well I tested the following on my box of boxes (small Fedex boxes in a paper ream box). 10 boxes total the following rounds were stopped at this number of boxes:

22 LR from Ruger 45/22: 2 boxes
22 LR from a Winchester Model 52 rifle: 4 boxes
38 special: 5 boxes
357 mag: 6 boxes
45 acp: 6 boxes
5.7 FN: 4 boxes
380 acp: 3 boxes
9mm +p: 5 boxes

Retrieved were like new except with rifling grooves. So much so going to take my 38/357s and run them through a sizing die to try through my 9mm/380.

JIMinPHX
05-05-2009, 01:33 PM
Sheepdog,

Thanks you for the report.

Where did you get your crumb rubber from & what brand was it? Floodgate had found a finer grain rubber that stopped boolits faster than mine did. Yours seems to work even better than his did. I'd like to find out what you are using & see if I can get some. It would allow me to make my traps smaller.

sheepdog
05-05-2009, 02:28 PM
Sheepdog,

Thanks you for the report.

Where did you get your crumb rubber from & what brand was it? Floodgate had found a finer grain rubber that stopped boolits faster than mine did. Yours seems to work even better than his did. I'd like to find out what you are using & see if I can get some. It would allow me to make my traps smaller.

Heres a picture of the bag and the target. It comes in dark brown and dark red. Looks to be mostly shoe soles, about the size of feta cheese crumbs. Bags are at Wally world for $6.78 IIRC. Good stuff, seems to resist breaking from the rounds, instead allowing the rounds to squeeze through but lose their energy. Also sprinkling in some of those rubber rings from tire stems that make their way into the wheel weight buckets.

Its worked out so nice my local gun store asked me for one so they could shoot their Walther 22 suppressed in the store. I don't endorse doing so but that is pretty fun.

http://i41.tinypic.com/30mpn4k.jpg

Nora
05-05-2009, 03:35 PM
1)Has any one tried this with just one large box?
2) is the rubber packed into the box or filled loose?

I really like this idea and would like to give it a try myself. :Fire:

sheepdog
05-05-2009, 04:12 PM
1)Has any one tried this with just one large box?

Yeah and that works. Problem is as you shoot out the front the box starts pouring out mulch and lead. Quite a mess. By doing a box in the front and in the back you can reduce the amount that pours out greatly and keep it dense. Only reason I did lots of small boxes is to gauge where it stops and fill past the top of the paper box.



2) is the rubber packed into the box or filled loose?

I really like this idea and would like to give it a try myself.

In mine I filled it loosely til at the top then put in a half handful to make it slightly packed enough so the corners were filled out good at the tops.

Overall the box is maybe 30 pounds, portable enough to take to the range.

JIMinPHX
05-06-2009, 03:42 AM
This is the latest version of the box trap that I am using. I call it the pistol cube. As the name implies, it's cube shaped. It's about 1 foot high, wide & deep. The back has a 3/16" thick steel plate under a 3/4" piece of MDF. That composite back side of the box is hinged & held shut with a piece of 1/4" rod that goes through two pieces of 1/8 x 1 flat bar. The balance of the box is built out of 3/8" OSB & 2 x 2 pine. Everything is held together with drywall screws.

The 12" depth of crumb rubber is enough to slow down something like a .38 Special to the point where the 3/16" plate stops it easily. If I shoot .38's at it, I find all my slugs within an inch or two of the back plate. Most of the boolits bounce off the plate & get a pretty good dent in them, but I still get mostly whole boolits back for recycling into ingots. This trap doesn't give me the perfectly preserved boolits that are good for diagnosing boolit problems like some of the deeper traps do, but it is quick & easy to empty the lead out of since the back opens easily & it only requires me to dig down about 2" into the crumb rubber to get all my lead back.

The first two pictures show the trap sitting upright. First a front view (cardboard backing with target attached), then a rear view (showing 1/4" steel rod latch). The last picture shows the trap turned with the front down to the ground & the back opened.

sheepdog
05-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Nice Jim. I been thinking about a box with ar500 plate in the back and about 10 inches of rubber mulch in the middle and layers of 18 wheeler tire sidewall in the front to hold it in. As you found you don't have to stop the round completely but slow it enough to keep it form self-destructing.

JIMinPHX
05-06-2009, 03:30 PM
My plate is just a piece of garden variety A-36 hot roll. It seems to work fine for what I am doing with it.

Truck tire sidewalls may be a bit more than you want to use on the front of the trap. I seem to remember a number of years back when some guy stole a buss out of South Station in Boston, the Boston cops tried to shoot out the tires with bad results. The tires were not punctured by the 9mm pistol rounds & the ricochets went some places that caused problems.

I get a few hundred rounds out of a piece of cardboard on the front of that trap before I need to change it. There is probably some type of gummy rubber out there that would self heal after a round went through it, but I'm not sure where you would get that in a sheet or how you would spec it. I do remember about 8 or 10 years ago, a buddy of mine & I were shooting at blocks of wood & such, when he pulled out a big chunk of gum rubber or something that he used to clean his belt sander. We shot at it with a .22 several times with no apparent hits. I was starting to get a little embarrassed at my poor marksmanship, until I put a piece of paper over the front of it. The bullets were hitting it alright. They went right through & the hole healed back up. We couldn't find the hole in the rubber block, but paper on the front & back sides of it both had holes in them. I wish I knew where to find that kind of rubber in 1/4" thick sheets. It would be perfect for the front of a box trap.

markinalpine
05-06-2009, 03:58 PM
...has anyone building a trap like these used, or considered using, corrugated plastic? The same type used for campaign signs? NOT that I'm suggesting anything that might get anyone in trouble for an imagined hate-crime [smilie=1:.
(Just use it with any incriminating evidence on the inside :Fire:.

Mark [smilie=s:

briang
05-06-2009, 04:23 PM
My gun club uses old conveyor belt rubber from the local cement plant as target holders. As the center gets shot out a new layer gets put up, sometimes there will be three or four layers on the outer edges. The only round I've ever seen stopped by it was a very light load from a ML and that went through the first layer. I don't think tire sidewalls would be much different.

sheepdog
05-06-2009, 05:29 PM
My plate is just a piece of garden variety A-36 hot roll. It seems to work fine for what I am doing with it.

Truck tire sidewalls may be a bit more than you want to use on the front of the trap. I seem to remember a number of years back when some guy stole a buss out of South Station in Boston, the Boston cops tried to shoot out the tires with bad results. The tires were not punctured by the 9mm pistol rounds & the ricochets went some places that caused problems.

I get a few hundred rounds out of a piece of cardboard on the front of that trap before I need to change it. There is probably some type of gummy rubber out there that would self heal after a round went through it, but I'm not sure where you would get that in a sheet or how you would spec it. I do remember about 8 or 10 years ago, a buddy of mine & I were shooting at blocks of wood & such, when he pulled out a big chunk of gum rubber or something that he used to clean his belt sander. We shot at it with a .22 several times with no apparent hits. I was starting to get a little embarrassed at my poor marksmanship, until I put a piece of paper over the front of it. The bullets were hitting it alright. They went right through & the hole healed back up. We couldn't find the hole in the rubber block, but paper on the front & back sides of it both had holes in them. I wish I knew where to find that kind of rubber in 1/4" thick sheets. It would be perfect for the front of a box trap.

Good point, might be a bit dangerous. Maybe carpet? I have unlimited supply of old carpet from business next door. Carpet seems to be tough enough and usually have some ability keep things in if turned inside out and stapled over a frame like yours.

sheepdog
05-18-2009, 10:58 AM
Ok my paper box held up to 7.62x25 from a cz52, 40 S&W, and amazingly 5.56 from a 20" barrel. However it didn't stand a chance against the mighty 30-06 from an M1. However did slow it down enough it bounced off the berm and remained intact. With the steel plate I might be able to do 30-06

sheepdog
05-20-2009, 01:23 PM
Update: box handled 00 and 000 buckshot 2 3/4 shells from 1300 Defender and Saiga 12. Also took 1 ounce slug no problem.

sheepdog
05-28-2009, 04:53 PM
Update: box handled a 180gr 30-06 with a 13 grain Red dot load.

JKH
05-29-2009, 11:25 AM
sheepdog,

What range were you shooting the '06 at your trap? How did the boolits look after rcovery?

I am in the process of making mine now, we used to get UPS boxes similar to the Fed-Ex ones you use but not anymore, so I went to the post office and got a bunch of free bulk rate boxes that measure roughly 11+" x 13+" x 3+" They are tight side to side in the copy paper box I got from the office but still fit, I can get 5 of them in there but may gin up somethig else to hold them rather than the cardboard box. Now I just need 2 more bags of rubber mulch from Wally world to fill the remaining boxes and I can start collecting lead, this will be so much better than making my lawn look like a freshly plowed field after a .45acp session!

Jeff

JKH
05-29-2009, 01:38 PM
I just re-read this entire thread, very good info here!

Jim, I like your pistol cube, have you tryed and .45acp in it yet? As for the front cover you might want to try a sheet of EPDM rubber membrane roofing, it can be stretched tight and stapled to the frame and should take a lot of hits before needing replacement, i believe it would be basically "self-healing" at least for a few hundred rounds, maybe more.

How much does your pistol cube weigh?

Jeff

sheepdog
05-29-2009, 04:32 PM
I'm shooting pistols about 25 yards away, shotguns 25 to 50, and rifles 100. Most rounds are just fine unless a boolit hits a boolit. The 30-06s were lead boolits and mushroomed or bent.

Bgddy
06-11-2009, 11:10 AM
I wonder how deep a box filled with crumb rubber would have to be to stop a 9mm at 7yards. For that matter any other typical defensive round .357 magnum out of a 3 inch or less barrel etc.

JIMinPHX
06-15-2009, 10:49 PM
I just re-read this entire thread, very good info here!

Jim, I like your pistol cube, have you tryed and .45acp in it yet?


.45acp is one of the calibers it does best. The slugs end up in the back 3 or 4" of the trap for easy unloading.



How much does your pistol cube weigh?


It's 39 pounds with a 3/16" thick steel back plate.

JIMinPHX
06-15-2009, 10:59 PM
I wonder how deep a box filled with crumb rubber would have to be to stop a 9mm at 7yards. For that matter any other typical defensive round .357 magnum out of a 3 inch or less barrel etc.

On the top of this page, post #141 should answer that question pretty well.

sheepdog
06-16-2009, 05:25 PM
Yup even a box the size of a large flat rate USPS box would stop most rounds.

I did another test this weekend where all my boxes were still rubber except the last. The last I filled with garden rock like you find on most paths. I blew the holy hell out of the box but was able to stop all rifle rounds, including steel core. Seems by the time it hits the rock its lost all most all of its energy and simply cant move anything that hard or dense. Even if it were going to try to bounce back would have to go through some or all of the box to do it which it doesn't have juice for.

Baryngyl
06-18-2009, 02:36 AM
Yup even a box the size of a large flat rate USPS box would stop most rounds.

I did another test this weekend where all my boxes were still rubber except the last. The last I filled with garden rock like you find on most paths. I blew the holy hell out of the box but was able to stop all rifle rounds, including steel core. Seems by the time it hits the rock its lost all most all of its energy and simply cant move anything that hard or dense. Even if it were going to try to bounce back would have to go through some or all of the box to do it which it doesn't have juice for.

Your rocks idea gave me an idea of my own, what if you used the last box or 2 filled with 1/4 to 1/2 inch or so steel ball bearings, they would allow the use of a magnet to remove them from the lead that is mixed in them.

Michael Grace

Jim_Fleming
06-18-2009, 05:46 AM
Bear in mind the weight of those same ball bearings...

Also instead of ball bearings which are going to be costly, why not use BB's...? They'd have to be cheaper, (the zinc plated ones, I'd think would be cheaper) plus they have the fact that they're smaller, and would pack more densely. Sort of like using a sand bag, instead of a gravel filled bag. Then add the fact that they're available almost anywhere.

Heh! I was thinking at first when I read this, that the BB's would react to bullet impacts almost like a claymore mine! But what that idea lead to is the fact that with every bullet impact you'd have depletion of the BB's due to the splash effect that bullets are going to have... Pros and Cons either way.

Take Care,

Jim


Your rocks idea gave me an idea of my own, what if you used the last box or 2 filled with 1/4 to 1/2 inch or so steel ball bearings, they would allow the use of a magnet to remove them from the lead that is mixed in them.

Michael Grace

Bgddy
06-18-2009, 02:44 PM
On the top of this page, post #141 should answer that question pretty well.

I actually read that post, I just didn't know the distance that it had been fired from and figure that could make a huge difference

sheepdog
06-18-2009, 05:52 PM
I actually read that post, I just didn't know the distance that it had been fired from and figure that could make a huge difference

Not really. For me the 9mm from 50 yards or 10 feet seemed about the same penetration.


BTW guys, ball bearings or BBs? You're over thinkin it here. Rocks are free, lighter than steel and no fuss if they break (which you want them to do when they take energy instead of shooting out the back).

JIMinPHX
06-18-2009, 08:15 PM
I actually read that post, I just didn't know the distance that it had been fired from and figure that could make a huge difference

Th effect that range has on boolit velocity varies with the ballistic coefficient of the particular boolit. 9mm slugs vary from around .11 to around .21. The chart below should give you a ballpark idea of how a 147-grain 9-mm boolit might behave.

Jim_Fleming
06-18-2009, 09:06 PM
Good Point sheepdog...

Wouldn't sand be even better than gravel? then all one would have to do is sift out the chunks of lead when it's all said and done.




BTW guys, ball bearings or BBs? You're over thinkin it here. Rocks are free, lighter than steel and no fuss if they break (which you want them to do when they take energy instead of shooting out the back).

sheepdog
06-19-2009, 11:05 AM
Good Point sheepdog...

Wouldn't sand be even better than gravel? then all one would have to do is sift out the chunks of lead when it's all said and done.

Well.. in theory. Only problem is the sand will pour out within a few shots. Nugget sized rocks,.. not so much. :) This is why the rubber is nice, doesn't fall out very easily. What I'm seeing is the rocks are somewhat packed in the last box so as the boolit hits the rock is doesn't want to give but it does a little so it disperses some of the energy to the other rocks and energy is wasted "cutting" the rocks on jacketed rounds. Lead rifle rounds seem to just flatten like a quarter as they slam into the rock or just get stuck as they wedge between rocks. Keep in mind by this time the projectile has passed through 90% of the length of a paper ream box filled with rubber so the rifle boolit was very little energy left. I'm seeing some jacketed rounds just come to a hard stop when they hit rock. This makes sense if you see the penetration chart on the 03 Springfield wiki which shows 4.80 in for one-inch broken stone and gravel at 200 yards and only 2.2 in of brick masonry. Jacketed I'm using are Greek HXP mil surplus, 1965 lots from CMP.

Jim_Fleming
06-19-2009, 10:11 PM
Ahhh... You're right... I completely forgot about sand's tendency to flow...

But there again, you remind me of my comment about using BB's instead of ball bearings, saving quite a few dollars and ball bearings to boot...

I have been following this thread since the day I signed onto this board, and I love this idea. I.E. Trapping bullets for recycling the lead.

I've been doing some serious checking on prices for using 1/2"x12" steel plate, laid in two directions in the trap, the inner layer parallel to the path of the bullet, and the outer layer laid perpendicular to the path of the bullet. Laminated steel as it were, on the order of how true plywood is made. All steel that the bullets will contact, top and bottom and left and right sides, would be angled at 15 degrees to the path of the bullet (30 degrees included angle.) Then the bullets will be gently funneled into a deceleration chamber made out of 1/2" wall x 24" dia. pipe that will have been split length ways, and the two halves will be assembled about an inch or so offset and when the Blue Pills run out of steam they'll just fall into my waiting 5 gallon bucket.

See http://www.actiontarget.com/com_bt_tct.html for where I stole the idea from.

For enough steel to make a trap with an entrance of 24"H x 48" wide, angled and so forth as I've roughly described, it's going to take about $400 dollars worth of new steel... And that sure as h e double l doesn't even include the angle or channel that I'll need to hold the layers in place.

Shazzam dang @&$(!!! That's gonna be costly! But at least I'll be able to recycle my lead (all of it, except for the paper, jackets, other litter and trash... And this'll also include the .22 RF pills and all of my neighbors bullets they periodically fire, etc...

pps
06-19-2009, 11:52 PM
Jim, I'll post mine that was built for around 30 bucks. I drive it to the end of the range, drop it off the end of the truck and it's good to go. Shot 500 rounds last weekend and recaptured them all.

BarryinIN
06-20-2009, 02:05 AM
Just so you guys know...
Lowe's has the rubber mulch.

Or at least the one in Mooresville, IN has it. It was a little over 8 bucks for .8 cu ft.
I bought four bags.

Jim_Fleming
06-20-2009, 05:44 AM
To be honest, Gents, the idea of spending 400+ bucks for the steel alone, not to mention the angle or channel I'd need, then the welding and so forth, is a bit daunting...

Makes the idea of a simple smash/splash plate seem a heckuva lot more attractive.

PPS, I've not gone back thru the thread in the last month, and seen your original posting, is your design back there? If so I'll gladly re-search for your posting(s).

JIMinPHX
06-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Jim, if you go with 30 degree included angle on the steel strap, then you probably will not need 1/2" thick steel. 1/4" should be plenty & you might even get away with 3/16. Shooting at a few small test pieces of steel plate in front of a berm should help you determine what you really need. My 45 degree trap was OK untill the velocity got up around 2,000fps. Then the boolits started taking small divots out of the surface of the plate when they hit. A slighter angle would probably have taken care of that problem.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread, you will see the first steel traps that I built. Page 4 has a more useful, crumb rubber based, trap that I built for use with .30 cal. rifles & also some pictures that show the reason I prefer the rubber traps over steel. The steel traps give me back small chunks of boolit & lead dust. The rubber traps give me back whole boolits that are much easier to handle & not messy like the lead dust is.

leadman
06-20-2009, 04:00 PM
I've seen Jims' recovered boolits. In a pinch (SHTF) you could probably load these again and fire them.

I'm thinking of building a trap like Jims as his design utilizes low cost material and is light enough to be transported easily.

Jim_Fleming
06-20-2009, 11:00 PM
Thanks Gents for the excellent reply, the generous sharing of your knowledge, the courtesy, and best of all the willingness to share and help a person with NO knowledge of trapping bullets.

My original idea was to be able to trap everything. From .22 RF all the way up to and beyond .375 H&H Magnum, if some durned fool ever wanted to play, LOL! I think I was looking to build something fancy like I've seen on the link I posted earlier. Enough of that...

Now here's a thought, Jim in Phoenix, your original box (rubber crumbs inside) was about 24 inches deep as I understand it. And as I further understand it, everything stopped within 20 inches or so from entry...

I am mostly interested in recycling my fired lead, that's a given, along with that I'd like to capture all the lead that me and my neighbors fire at it... Hee Hee! I'm trying get more lead for free, (have I ever told you that I'm cheap a double ss'ed Scots/Irishman? Never mind! that's for a more general forum! ;) )

I think after consideration Jim you've got the cheaper idea, and in fact I'd say it's better, mostly because of costs involved. However I don't really intend to take the one I make down very often. Perhaps once or twice a shooting season/year.

Without hogging the thread, and without making a big deal of all of this, what do you Gents think about creating a box full of rubber crumbs, that'd be about 24' H x 48 W x 48 D?

That'd allow space for two shooters hammering away at the same time, as well as doubling the depth of stopping media.

Jim please bear with me, what did you use in the front of your box to either hang the targets on as well as allowing the slugs to enter the stopping media?

I'm also not going to use steel back plates, simply for the sake of costs. I'll just check the box trap from time to time for exit holes, then clean out the lead etc.

I have more I want to ask but this posting is going to look like I took out a center spread in a magazine...

Thanks again Gents for being so kind,

JIMinPHX
06-21-2009, 02:17 AM
I'm thinking of building a trap like Jims as his design utilizes low cost material and is light enough to be transported easily.

Before you go building one, please talk to me. I have spares that I want to get rid of. In developing those traps, I ended up building more than I needed. I'd love to find a good home for one or two of them.

JIMinPHX
06-21-2009, 02:28 AM
...as I further understand it, everything stopped within 20 inches or so from entry...
...
what do you Gents think about creating a box full of rubber crumbs, that'd be about 24' H x 48 W x 48 D?

...Jim please bear with me, what did you use in the front of your box to either hang the targets on as well as allowing the slugs to enter the stopping media?

I'm also not going to use steel back plates, simply for the sake of costs. ...

I have more I want to ask but this posting is going to look like I took out a center spread in a magazine...

Thanks again Gents for being so kind,

Some of my 2,000ish fps 150-grain 30-30's bounced off the back wall @ 24", but not that hard. They dented a 2 x 4. When you shoot a lot of boolits into a small group, tunnels form in the crumb rubber & the boolits start to go deeper.

I think that a 24 x 48 x 48 trap is a great idea for a fixed place range. I would put some kind of steel on the back of it though. Even 1/8" H36 with a little wood behind it really does help keep the boolits that found a tunnel from causing too much trouble most of the time. I figure that adding a piece of 1/8" to the back of that thing should cost about $40 or $50.

I just used cardboard on the front of my traps. After about 300 or so rounds, I put up a new piece. With a trap the size you are talking about, you could have about 8 different spots each hit by 300 rounds before you needed to change cardboard. That's well over 2,000 rounds. Not bad if you ask me. Self healing gum rubber would be nice if you were only going to use round nose pistol boolits, but it's a bit expensive & wadcutters punch holes right through it.

Feel free to ask all the questions that you want. We're here to help. I'm glad that the fruits of my labor are able to help someone out.

Jim_Fleming
06-21-2009, 06:08 AM
That's exactly, as you can tell, what I'm thinking of is a fixed place range out in my back yard. We use the mountain and the scrub Red Pine trees as a back stop now. If I can get the steel I'll use it. I'm not adverse to the steel idea, in fact I like it a lot. Three benefits of using it are total reclamation of the bullets, the safety factor of no over penetration, and lastly less pollution from the lead.

What I will do, and advise others that're considering something on the order we're discussing is to place it up off the ground, and make some sort of roof/shelter over it to keep the rain and snow off, nothing too elaborate or costly just a few 2x4's and some sheet tin, etc.

I'd not realized you used cardboard, that's simple enough, but it also reinforces the need for some sort of over head cover from the rain, on a fixed place backstop. The cardboard is made with water, folks, and water in the cardboard is going to dump all of your lovely boolits and rubber crumbs onto the ground.


I think that a 24 x 48 x 48 trap is a great idea for a fixed place range. I would put some kind of steel on the back of it though. Even 1/8" H36 with a little wood behind it really does help keep the boolits that found a tunnel from causing too much trouble most of the time. I figure that adding a piece of 1/8" to the back of that thing should cost about $40 or $50.

I just used cardboard on the front of my traps. After about 300 or so rounds, I put up a new piece. With a trap the size you are talking about, you could have about 8 different spots each hit by 300 rounds before you needed to change cardboard. That's well over 2,000 rounds. Not bad if you ask me. Self healing gum rubber would be nice if you were only going to use round nose pistol boolits, but it's a bit expensive & wadcutters punch holes right through it.

markshere2
06-21-2009, 06:40 AM
I took this thread as a design starting place.

I have a plywood box 3' tall and 4' wide and about 2' deep.
it's filled with dried wood chips (mulch)
I have it inside an open cage roof support with a tin roof over it.

It's a permanent installation in my back yard ( I live in the woods)

The front piece of plywood will need replaced a few times per year.

It's keeping the bullets inside for now, we'll see how it goes long-term.

My back stop is tires stacked, and filled with dirt.

So far, so good.

sheepdog
06-21-2009, 10:48 AM
The 24' H x 48 W x 48 D box sounds great as a stationary target where weight and bulk arent a concern. I'd probably build a little troth in front below the target to catch rubber as it flows out. Maybe a cut channel on each side of the front to slide fresh cardboard or pvc signs in the front to sure up the front form leaking now and then.

Markshere that sounds pretty good but think if you cut the soft but durable sidewalls out of tires and use those in overlaping bands as your front might be more self healing.

briang
06-21-2009, 12:11 PM
How deep do you guys think a box of crumb rubber would have to be to stop J word bullets out of a 30-06? I'm thinking 30"

JIMinPHX
06-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Jim, you will want to build that thing with a top that opens so that you can get to the crumb rubber & fluff it up once in a while to get rid of the tunnels that form.

Jim_Fleming
06-21-2009, 09:27 PM
good point! I think my wife just lost her floral rake, LOL! [smilie=1:

the other reason for a "loose" top is so as to remove the contents, then replace the crumbs after lead removal...

Has anyone come up, yet, with a good easy way to float the rubber off of the lead...? The one idea I'd read was using extremely salty water, aka brine...?




Jim, you will want to build that thing with a top that opens so that you can get to the crumb rubber & fluff it up once in a while to get rid of the tunnels that form.

JIMinPHX
06-21-2009, 10:47 PM
Forget the brine. I tried it. It's a total mess. With my small traps, I just pick the boolits out by hand as a move handfuls of crumb rubber from the trap into a cardboard box. Then I dump the box back into the trap & I'm done.

A better method for the volume of material that you will have is to use a basket & employ a method similar to the way that old time farmers used to separate wheat from chaff. Take a bunch of crumb rubber/boolit mix in a quarter-half full basket & toss it up in the air about 6 or 8 times. The boolits will settle to the bottom & be easy to separate after that. Then have two receptacles, one for the boolits & one for the separated rubber. 15 or 20 batches later, you should be about done. I expect it would take about a half hour to clean out all the boolits.

Jim_Fleming
06-22-2009, 05:56 AM
KISS principle seems to almost always be the best principle.

And that half hour would be a SMALL investment when considering the amount of bullets one would get in return.

My box would hold about 32 cu.ft. I've yet to pay attention in Wal-Mart to the rubber mulch bags, but Mr. Jim I like everything you've said, plus the fact it's going to save me a few hundred dollars...

One thing I think I'm going to try and do though is use Homasoat instead of cardboard. It would seem that the 1/2 thick material would hold up longer, and is just as easy to push pin targets onto. Plus the Homasoat comes in 4x8 sheets which would be easy to rip down to 2x4 sheets.

Incidentally www.homasote.com is a real live website and viable company. Interesting!




Forget the brine. I tried it. It's a total mess. With my small traps, I just pick the boolits out by hand as a move handfuls of crumb rubber from the trap into a cardboard box. Then I dump the box back into the trap & I'm done.

A better method for the volume of material that you will have is to use a basket & employ a method similar to the way that old time farmers used to separate wheat from chaff. Take a bunch of crumb rubber/boolit mix in a quarter-half full basket & toss it up in the air about 6 or 8 times. The boolits will settle to the bottom & be easy to separate after that. Then have two receptacles, one for the boolits & one for the separated rubber. 15 or 20 batches later, you should be about done. I expect it would take about a half hour to clean out all the boolits.

sheepdog
06-23-2009, 01:25 PM
How deep do you guys think a box of crumb rubber would have to be to stop J word bullets out of a 30-06? I'm thinking 30"

I remember a guy in this post or another, don't recall which, that made one that was 41" long that would stop anything he could throw at it including J-boot 30-06, 54r, all that mean stuff except 50 bmg. Me thinks 50 bmg might take a refrigerator box full of rubber to slow it down enough to hit an AR500 plate without damaging it.

JIMinPHX
06-23-2009, 02:17 PM
Jim,
for a trap with a front face that big, I would have envisioned a wooden lattice on the front, maybe made out of 2x2 or 2x4 wood, with a bunch of 1-foot square cardboard, or in your case homasote panels. I think that a single sheet, the full size of your front face, would not last nearly as long as a bunch of smaller panels on a framework would. If the 2x2s or 2x4s take a bunch of hits, they would be pretty easy to replace.

Jim_Fleming
06-23-2009, 10:50 PM
Mr. Jim...

I had planned on doing exactly that... Subdividing, as per your idea, because Homasote is almost of the consistency of ceiling tile. No strength what so ever. But it DOES hold push pins nicely.

Say, a couple sub-dividers in center, put in on 12" or 16" centers, creating several smaller panels Yeah, 2x2's would be nice, nice and easy. I have a feeling that when you maintain your boolit catcher, (not a trap, LOL!) When you maintain it, a BIG wheel barrow is your best friend to hold the crumbs while you're working, etc.

Like you said, Sir, even if the 2x2's get hammered up it's not a big deal, although they shouldn't take as much wear as the center of the 16x24 area will. One nice thing about this is, that at LEAST three shooters can plink away all at the same time. Nor would it be difficult at all to put four targets on it, allowing for even more fun and games, LOL!

I'm getting excited about finally being able to get this thing rolling... I might've even gotten a source for range lead, at a local fish and game club, but that's a tale for another thread...




Jim,
for a trap with a front face that big, I would have envisioned a wooden lattice on the front, maybe made out of 2x2 or 2x4 wood, with a bunch of 1-foot square cardboard, or in your case homasote panels. I think that a single sheet, the full size of your front face, would not last nearly as long as a bunch of smaller panels on a framework would. If the 2x2s or 2x4s take a bunch of hits, they would be pretty easy to replace.

JIMinPHX
06-24-2009, 02:19 AM
Sounds like a plan.:drinks:

Jim_Fleming
06-24-2009, 05:38 AM
Another question for the readers and writers on this thread...

Just off of the top of your heads, can anyone tell me about how much is a bag of rubber crumbs?

Thanks,

:drinks:

sheepdog
06-24-2009, 02:23 PM
Another question for the readers and writers on this thread...

Just off of the top of your heads, can anyone tell me about how much is a bag of rubber crumbs?

Thanks,

:drinks:

Think I paid $6.78 or abouts at Walmart. Its the same size as a 40 pound compost bag. Pictures of it further up the post. Rubber is about the size of popped popcorn. Comes in dark red and dark brown, made of old shoe soles.

Jim_Fleming
06-24-2009, 10:42 PM
Sheep Dog, thanks for the prompt answer...

Bgddy
06-25-2009, 09:19 AM
Here is a supplier of mulch near me however they have a few locations around. Black playground grade for .19cents a pound plus shipping and if you are close you can pick it up.

http://www.perfectrubbermulch.com/

Jim_Fleming
06-25-2009, 10:38 PM
Bgddy, I just took a bit of a look at that URL/Site you posted, thanks!

I'm not 100% sure about the weight per cu.ft. but... As I seem to understand it, the crumbs seem to weigh in at about 700-800 lbs. per cubic yard.

The box I'm thinking of building would hold 32 cu. ft. If my mathmetiker wirks guut...?

I'm thinking it would take nearly 900 lbs to fill my box... wow!

Anyone else see a mistake in my clacullations...? er, make that calculations...

Baryngyl
06-26-2009, 04:32 AM
Not sure what size you are planing but a 2ftX2ftX5ft would only be 20 cubic feet.

If I were to build a box it would probably be 1½X1½X 3 or 4 for a total of 6.75 to 9 Cubic feet.

To get 32 cubic feet you would need a box some wheres in the size of 2X2X8 or 3x3x3½.


Michael Grace

Jim_Fleming
06-26-2009, 05:43 AM
I am planning on making a box 4x4x2...

4 wide x 4 deep x 2 high

Bgddy
06-26-2009, 03:25 PM
Jim your calculations are correct 32 cu ft 700 to 800 lbs per cu yd (27 cu ft) at 800 lbs cu yd that is nearly 30 lbs per cu ft so 960 lbs

Jim_Fleming
06-29-2009, 05:53 AM
In that case...

I'll guessestimate that the whole kit and kaboodle will be in the near neighborhood of around $200 for nearly everything.

Not bad compared to nearly $400 for the steel that would've made the impact plates of the conical/funnel shaped trap I had in mind at first... That wouldn't include the frame work to put and hold everything together.

The last detail would have to be making some sort of support capable holding that big of a box. What I had in mind was a pair of saw horses with legs made from treated lumber to keep the legs from decaying from contact with the ground. And I'd run the spines of the saw horses parallel to the flight of the bullet to ease the inevitable damage from stray rounds.

I'll take photos and post them, when I get started and as the project goes along!

Thanks Everyone! :Fire: :Fire: :Fire: :brokenima

JIMinPHX
06-29-2009, 06:59 AM
There are several bulk suppliers of crumb rubber. Here are a few that you might want to consider -

http://www.tirerecyclingcrumbrubbershredder.com/rubber-crumb.html
http://www.crumbrubber.net/a/1320.html
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/TIRES/Products/CrumbRubber/Producer.htm

Jim_Fleming
06-30-2009, 05:42 AM
again, thanks everyone.

BOOM BOOM
06-30-2009, 05:53 PM
HI,
After reading the last 2 pages I have to say -Why are you all building such big traps?
Mine fits into the back of my Toyota.
Mine cost about $245 in materials , it seems your costs might be even more, bullet recovery in mine is just dump into a # 10 can.

sheepdog
06-30-2009, 11:35 PM
HI,
After reading the last 2 pages I have to say -Why are you all building such big traps?
Mine fits into the back of my Toyota.
Mine cost about $245 in materials , it seems your costs might be even more, bullet recovery in mine is just dump into a # 10 can.

Yup, mine is about 30-35 pounds, cost $12 and can take anything below a 30-30 at full strength or 30-06 at reduced loads. If I added 7 to 8 more pounds I'd be able to take it all short of 50 bmg.

Jim_Fleming
06-30-2009, 11:44 PM
My intent is to be able to put many FULL house loads, and sustain this pace for several months into the trap. From several shooters at one time.

I'm not worried about portability, just recovery of the lead for my own recycling of the blue pills... Both Cast Boolits and Jacketed Slugs.

over the hill gang
07-27-2009, 12:04 AM
How about some pictures of these traps Boys ..... Been wanting to build one and doing the research but would like to see a few in action. Any pictures?

JIMinPHX
07-27-2009, 12:06 PM
There are several pictures already posted in the 11 pages of this thread. Several types of traps are shown. Is there something particular that you wanted to see?

Pages 1,4 & 8 are good places to start looking for trap pics.

sheepdog
07-27-2009, 12:12 PM
Hillgang I think it would be better at this point to describe what your goal is and maybe we can steer you in the right direction. Answer this please:

Does it need to be portable?
Max caliber you expect to use?
Is lead reclamation a priority or a minor bonus?
Are you wanting a audible report when hit or just want to hit a target?
How much are you wanting to spend?
How big do you want to the target face to be?

over the hill gang
07-27-2009, 10:29 PM
Hillgang I think it would be better at this point to describe what your goal is and maybe we can steer you in the right direction. Answer this please:

Does it need to be portable? It does not need to be portable as I have a range in my back yard.
Max caliber you expect to use? I probably wouldn't shoot anything bigger than a 50 Cal. muzzleloader, but mostly 45ACP and 38 specials
Is lead reclamation a priority or a minor bonus? Yes I would like to collect my lead for recasting
Are you wanting a audible report when hit or just want to hit a target? No I don't need to hear it hit, the hole in the target is enough for me.
How much are you wanting to spend? Lets face it, I think we are all trying to save a buck today but don't mind putting a hundred bucks or so into it
How big do you want to the target face to be?I do a lot of off hand shooting, and along with my buddies daughter just learning I would like to have a 4 foot square for her to hit anyway

I thank you guys on here this is the best forum I have ever been on for collecting info for casting bullets, I received a Mihec 45 HP mold a few weeks back and love it and have cast over a 1000 rounds so far with it and probably have shot as many also.

over the hill gang
07-27-2009, 10:43 PM
I was just looking at some of the pictures that you had recommended and maybe I need to down size this a little, weight is not an issue as I have a backhoe tractor that I can move it around with if need be. I was thinking on the line of 4...4 foot square plates 1/2 inch thick tapered and welded at 33 degree angles to make sort of like a pyramid shape with about an 8 inch pipe coming out of the back at an angle going into a sand trap but like the shredded rubber idea better. I have seen this type of a trap somewhere but can't remember where!!!! heck of a note to get old can't remember anything any more..... :O)

grumman581
07-30-2009, 04:39 AM
Personally, I would be more interested in how many inches of sand it would take to stop the various calibers... I'm wanting to create a bullet trap / backstop that I can use for load development... Unfortunately, the city I live in has an idiotic rule about not firing guns in the city limits... I figure that if I'm doing it in my garage, maybe the sound would be muffled enough that no one would notice... Or at least not be able to tell exactly where it is coming from... Right now, I wait until my neighbor's lawn service comes by and when they are making all the noise with their 2-cycle trimmers and blowers and their large lawn mowers, I go behind the garage and take a few shots for whatever load I'm testing... Unfortunately, that means that I can only test a few shots once a week...

Jim_Fleming
07-30-2009, 05:53 AM
At the GREAT RISK of being corrected by my more experienced bretheren, I'll hazard a guess based on memory... Any and all of you ground combat experienced veterans out there please feel free to correct me!

Years ago, I seem to recall that a basic foot soldiers field manual recommended making the berms around a personal foxhole at least 2 bayonets deep, more would be better of course! But the point is that would be about 18 inches of mounded dirt in height.

The whole point of this long story is to post a S.W.A.G (scientific wild {ahem} guess) that 24 inches of sand in depth would do the job with any caliber of handgun. Rifle calibers are another matter entirely. They'd require more sand, perhaps 36 inches of sand so as to be totally confident against over penetration.

Be careful firing inside of the city limits, even inside of your garage, there are gun banners that are just looking for excuses to further their cause against us, and the noise pollution is plenty excuse to get their collective dander up. We have to make sure that their pablum cannot be twisted against us. I hate to advise against shooting, but perhaps cultivating a relationship with your local law officials might yield better advice that can be found here insofar as enforcement policies against firearm usage...?

Just a few thoughts...

sheepdog
07-30-2009, 07:27 AM
I do a lot of off hand shooting, and along with my buddies daughter just learning I would like to have a 4 foot square for her to hit anyway

I thank you guys on here this is the best forum I have ever been on for collecting info for casting bullets, I received a Mihec 45 HP mold a few weeks back and love it and have cast over a 1000 rounds so far with it and probably have shot as many also.

I would recommend a big box, like a computer box, on its side making it about 16 to 18 inches deep and as wide and tall as the box allows for a big target. Fill with the rubber crump and make a "backstop" behind the box with old tires cut in strip and nailed to a pieces of plywood. That should be plenty for pistols with the tires being the last line of defense. Believe that will do you good and might cost you a whole 15 bucks.
Once the box has had it empty into a new box slowly and collect the bright orange FMJs or gray boolits against the dark brown crumb filler. A box lasts me about 700 to 800 rounds before I change it out. 100% lead reclamation. As an added bonus the boolits are usually intact (unless they hit each other) so you can examine if you have leading, how boolits mushroom, how good an ingraving from the rifling your getting, if such ans such brand of FMJ has a sealed back, etc.

Marlin Hunter
07-30-2009, 02:27 PM
I didn't feel like reading through all the threads, but have you shooters seen the Snailtraps?

http://www.snailtraps.com/

sheepdog
07-30-2009, 03:22 PM
Snails are nice at first but cant handle big loads and get worn down pretty quick

grumman581
07-30-2009, 05:25 PM
Seems to me that the solution to separating the bullets is to use large lead shot for the media in your deceleration box... Eventually, the deceleration box will get a bit too full, so you just scoop out a bit and put in your smelter... Initially, you'll be scooping out the lead shot, but eventually, you'll start recycling the bullets that you put in there... I figure something like 000 buck shot size would work about right...

Considering the density of lead though, it's not going to be all that portable... It's going to be a *bit* heavy...

Yeah, it's probably a hairbrained idea, but it just *might* work... It would be interesting to see what sort of penetration that you received and whether the bullets would turn to lead powder upon hitting the media or if they would fuse to the media and just make a larger blob of lead...

grumman581
07-30-2009, 05:42 PM
Looks like I've found the answer to my question about penetration in sand...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm

sheepdog
07-30-2009, 05:48 PM
Looks like I've found the answer to my question about penetration in sand...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm

Yup sand is good at stopping boolits. Guess thats why you see so many sandbags in war zones. ;)

I'd like to use sand but sand has a habit of flowing like water which means in a few rounds you're out of sand. No very practical for repeat use.

grumman581
07-30-2009, 06:49 PM
I'd like to use sand but sand has a habit of flowing like water which means in a few rounds you're out of sand. No very practical for repeat use.

Unless you design a vertical range... Kind of suck to have to climb up to the top of the house each time to fire downward though...

sheepdog
07-30-2009, 06:56 PM
Lol vertical. You could do a sand berm but then you go tot worry about rain turning it into a hydrogel which could cause ricochet.

I like sand and water as good stoppers its just managing the containment of them.

Jim_Fleming
07-30-2009, 10:10 PM
Sand would and will flow like water until it's all ran out, etc... Everyone is correct, but visualize thin sheets of rubber on the inside of the drywall panels.

Rubber has a tendency to be 'self-healing' to a degree... Rubber would act as a membrane to slow/stop the flow of sand, until the rubber was 'worn out.' I seem to recall someone mentioning rubber sheets of gasket material on the earlier/earliest pages of this thread.

Someone please correct me if I have posted incorrectly about elsewhere in the thread. Please!

Jim in Phoenix, that fairly scientific test that's behind the link that Grumman 581 posted clears up a lot of mystery... Heck that confirms what I said about a dirt berm about 18 inches deep, front to back, and that my bullet catcher, (when I build it) 24 inches of sand would stop just about anything short of an RPG round...

sheepdog
07-31-2009, 10:52 AM
You know sand could still be used as a partial solution. I noticed something when I did my rubber crump box. I used several layers of Fedex boxes about 1.5 inches deep to make each layer of replaceable more often (ie fronts ) and to reduce the flow of crump out and away formt he center.
Well I noticed the boxes started to link to at the bullet holes, where card board tubes just about started to appear where the bullet blew materials from one box into the other but in such a way they didnt leak between. So if the front couple of boxes were crump and the rest sand that might work to grealy reduce outflow of sand and help keep the sand from changing the front into Non-Newtonian fluid where you might get a ricochet.

Jim_Fleming
07-31-2009, 10:42 PM
Another good idea, sheepdog! using corrugated paper behind or in front of the rubber membrane, i.e. sheet rubber/gasket material, depending on the results, to slow down the flow of sand...

Personally, I work in a glass plant, in there they lose more sand in a day than would fill my box! It's a nice white fine sand, but I'm sure that the blue pill filling I intend to put into the nice white sand will turn it into a lovely shade of Plumbum Gray, eventually.

Ron
08-02-2009, 06:46 AM
Jim F. The Special Operations Group here in Victoria have a glass bead bullet trap on one of their ranges. Have you thought of useing glass, you are in the right place to test it.

Jim_Fleming
08-02-2009, 06:19 PM
Ron!!!!

To tell you the truth I never once thought about using ground up glass, but sir, you sure as h e double hockey sticks, are exactly right!!!

:groner:

Any of the cullet that makes into the lead pot would simply float right to the top!!!!


I just never once thought about using the cullet, [smilie=b: , and I very likely could get TONS of it if I asked...

Free is always gonna be goot! LOL! :groner:

Thanks a million!






Jim F. The Special Operations Group here in Victoria have a glass bead bullet trap on one of their ranges. Have you thought of useing glass, you are in the right place to test it.

Bloodman14
09-17-2009, 11:05 PM
I'm coming in on this thread a bit late, but my .02.... I shoot into an old Elm tree stump, I can recover the lead later. Before that, it was a stack of old tires 4 high by 5 stacks deep. I recover a lot of lead that way, including my .303's (180 J's when I shoot them<GASP!>), and ALL my cast stuff, .303, SKS, .45 and .70 RB that I plink with in my 20" Winchester 1300 Defender 12 ga.


Update: I now use a 55 gal. plastic drum on its' side, filled with rubber mulch. Cut a hole in the side to fill it with the mulch, and put it onto a stand made from treated lumber (I use 4x4's). Fill 'er up, and use the ends (top or bottom) to fasten your target board to. 100% recovery, most are intact, and some will actually mushroom (cast, anywhere from 90 gr. SWCs, to 316299s at +/- 1900fps)! Jacketed types usually survive, as well, and are recovered.

zt77
09-19-2009, 05:00 PM
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2512.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2513.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2514.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2515.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2516.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2517.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2518.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2519.jpg



that is my bullet box. the walls and floor is made of 1/8 inch steel the back out of 1/4 inch and at the bottom of the back, the steel is rolled 90 degrees. a piece of 1/4 inch stainless steel is welded on top of the weld between the back and the floor to keep the weld from being beat up when the bullet rolls down. i welded little hooks to hold the target onto, as well as handles which is balanced out. it has a lip at the front to keep stuff from pouring out. the bullets are basically destroyed on impact and the rubber mat keeps slower bullets from doing that. it also doesnt throw wood chips in there as well as doesnt exactly blow out. i use a little gardeners shovel thing to get the stuff out. its like dirt but made of lead, not quite small enough to be dust but i'm 100% positive i dont want to breathe near that stuff when getting it out or just after shooting. but it works perfect, i've shot it with .500 s&w and the back isn't bowing or anything. i wont put it through rifle use but I bet 1/4 inch stainless could take it just fine.

also shooting without a front will cause bullet fragments to fly back towards you. the bullet hits the back, rolls down, hits the corner, and comes back, hitting the cover.

JIMinPHX
09-20-2009, 02:10 PM
i wont put it through rifle use but I bet 1/4 inch stainless could take it just fine.


I'd take that bet if I were a betting man. It's been my experience that above about 2,000fps, even soft 13bnh little 50-grain slugs start to take divots out of steel at a 45 degree angle.

zt77
09-20-2009, 02:21 PM
I couldn't seem to get .223 62 grain fmj dent the piece of stainless I had set up at 45 degrees. They would fragment upon impact.

mactool
09-20-2009, 02:33 PM
Look at these guys andtheir pictures. They use granulated tires. http://www.ballistiskforsoegsgruppe.dk/
But I guess you coud use rubber pellets used for injection moulding.

JIMinPHX
09-20-2009, 08:57 PM
Mine fragmented too, but they took a divot out of the back plate,

zt77
09-21-2009, 12:56 AM
not mine. not even a dent after powerwashing the lead smears. no dimples or divots.

Jim_Fleming
09-21-2009, 05:52 AM
Regarding the last two posts, from JiminPhoenix and zt77...

It's highly likely you're both correct... Lest we forget there are MANY grades of both Carbon Steel, from soft to hard alloys, and the same goes for Stainless Steel.

I know for a personal fact, (from working with them) there are grades of Stainless that are what's called work hardening... In other words the more that you cut, bend, form, hammer, there is formed a work-hardened skin on the metal...

It's possible that stainless back plate is doing just that. Work hardening more and more each and every time it's impacted, (hammered), by yet another blue pill. There is only a hard skin formed during work-hardening, not all the way through like with a metal working file.

It also goes without saying that there are extremely mild grades of Carbon Steel, there is one alloy called 'Leadlloy' that gets it's name from the fact that it's so malleable that it feels you're working with lead when it's being cut. The manufacturer of Leadlloy specifically declares that there are no significant amounts of lead in their product, Leadlloy...

Just food for thought...

JIMinPHX
09-21-2009, 07:08 AM
I was also going to ask what velocity your slugs were traveling at & how hard they were, but Mr. Fleming beat me to the third question. Which grade of stainless are you using? I was using h-36, which is a fairly soft grade of garden variety hot roll plate, but it's not as soft as something like leadloy. I can shoot 1800 fps pills at it all day with nothing more than splatter marks on bare steel & the mill scale getting blasted off the areas where it was still present. Around 2,000fps, I start getting little divots taken out of the back plate. That was with the plate at a 45degre angle. Slighter angles tend to take a hotter hit without distorting. Thicker steel will stand up to hits of the same velocity by heavier slugs without bending, but the thickness does not seem to have much of an effect on the velocity at which the divots start to occur.

I am pretty familiar with the work hardening that Jim brings up. I've seen it on a lot of pieces of chemical equipment that were subjected to regular stresses. Materials that work harden are usually susceptible to stress fractures from the same process that causes the hardening. I've seen this quite a bit on mixer blades, tank mounting pads & pump components. Early equipment for manufacturing Rayon, pill formers & homogenizers are a few of the pieces of equipment where I've seen stress fractures in stainless become a chronic issue.

I was going to go to a case hardened version of my backstop plate, but then I discovered the merits of the crumb rubber traps & I stopped fooling around with the steel designs. I had also considered a sandwich design for the backstop in which there are two pieces of plate bolted together with a layer of rubber in between them. I figured that this would be quieter. I thought that it might help to absorb the impact in the rubber, but then again, it may also let the front plate distort more easily too. I am not sure if it would be better or worse compared to a single plate. The idea needs to be tested.

By the way, that stainless trap is awfully nice looking.

thx997303
09-21-2009, 09:35 AM
JIMinPHX, on your pistol box, what kind of steel did you use? I read the thread and couldn't find that bit.

JIMinPHX
09-21-2009, 06:37 PM
JIMinPHX, on your pistol box, what kind of steel did you use? I read the thread and couldn't find that bit.

I'm assuming that you're talking about my pistol cube & not my 20" deep magnum pistol box. The back of the cube is H-36 hot roll plate. It's a real common grade of mild steel. One of my local steel yards sells pre cut 12" squares as a standard item. I think that particular one was 3/16" thick.

.38's, 9mm mak, .380 & .22RF just about reach the back of the box (1 foot deep crumb rubber). .45 ACP's often hit the back plate, but not real hard. 9mm Lugar rounds at 1200fps or snappy .38+p rounds hit it hard enough to flatten out the soft 13bnh slugs that I load, but do not dent the rear plate. It has 3/4"mdf behind the plate, just because that's what I had a scrap of laying around when I built the box. The 1/8 x 1" steel flat bars with the 1/4" steel rods going through them (now on both sides in the back) take up the brunt of the impact from the 9's & hot .38's. The wimpy little #4 wood screws in my hinge didn't hold up to that kind of abuse too well.

thx997303
09-21-2009, 07:14 PM
I wonder how it would fare with a 40 s&w.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is 3/4" mdf?

Three-Fifty-Seven
09-21-2009, 08:39 PM
I wonder how it would fare with a 40 s&w.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is 3/4" mdf?

3/4" = 0.75"

MDF = Medium-density fiberboard is an engineered wood product formed by breaking down hardwood or softwood residuals into wood fibres, often in a defibrator, combining it with wax and a resin binder, and forming panels by applying high temperature and pressure.[1]

It is made up of separated fibers, (not wood veneers) but can be used as a building material similar in application to plywood. It is much more dense than normal particle board.

Jim_Fleming
09-21-2009, 10:11 PM
for us old timers out there MDF is pretty much good old fashioned Masonite, the same backing board that's in those old clipboards that've pretty much disappeared...



3/4" = 0.75"

MDF = Medium-density fiberboard is an engineered wood product formed by breaking down hardwood or softwood residuals into wood fibres, often in a defibrator, combining it with wax and a resin binder, and forming panels by applying high temperature and pressure.[1]

It is made up of separated fibers, (not wood veneers) but can be used as a building material similar in application to plywood. It is much more dense than normal particle board.

grumman581
09-21-2009, 11:08 PM
for us old timers out there MDF is pretty much good old fashioned Masonite, the same backing board that's in those old clipboards that've pretty much disappeared...

If it was the same as Masonite, wouldn't there be some sort of secret handshake or something before you would be allowed to cut it? :wink:

thx997303
09-22-2009, 01:39 PM
Alright, I am going to build one of the pistol cubes, and just need to get it all straight.

JIMinPHX
09-22-2009, 11:39 PM
I wonder how it would fare with a 40 s&w.


How fast are those .40s moving & how heavy are they?

thx997303
09-23-2009, 02:36 PM
Figure about 1000 fps and 180 grains.

JIMinPHX
09-23-2009, 07:59 PM
I would expect 180 grains at about 1,000fps to go about 20" deep into crumb rubber before running out of steam.

flagman1776
09-24-2009, 10:53 AM
My first bullet trap was a cardboard box a V8 marine engine came in. I had tested with paper shopping bags (about 6") & found that nothing I owned (9mm, 357M, 41M, 44M, 45AR) would penitrate beyond this. I ladoriously lugged buckets of beach sand until the box was full. When the end of the box got shot up, I just added another cardboard on the inside & swept & shoveled the sand back in. I was in a densely settled neighborhood... The neighbors must have thought I was nuts & left me alone.
I really only used this as a test range... It really sucked to load up a couple of boxes & THEN discover they didn't chamber/shoot/locked the cylinder/etc.

Later I used the manure pile at my ex's place... literally "Shooting the ****!"
Russ

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 12:28 PM
My first bullet trap was a cardboard box a V8 marine engine came in. I had tested with paper shopping bags (about 6") & found that nothing I owned (9mm, 357M, 41M, 44M, 45AR) would penitrate beyond this. I ladoriously lugged buckets of beach sand until the box was full. When the end of the box got shot up, I just added another cardboard on the inside & swept & shoveled the sand back in. I was in a densely settled neighborhood... The neighbors must have thought I was nuts & left me alone.
I really only used this as a test range... It really sucked to load up a couple of boxes & THEN discover they didn't chamber/shoot/locked the cylinder/etc.

Later I used the manure pile at my ex's place... literally "Shooting the ****!"
Russ

Sand can work but you really really have to be careful because as it settles it loses its fluidity creating static surface tension. A bullet can hit it and ricochet as a man hitting still water will be crushed as if he hit concrete. Sand as a partial solution would be fine but not as is. Either separate into a phased target where it goes through one stage before hitting sand or mix sand with something that can keep it fluid and springy. I've thought about combining my rubber chunks with sand to add density to the barrier.

desteve811
09-24-2009, 12:37 PM
stupid question

Morrison Machine Shop
09-24-2009, 08:28 PM
You need to use AR500 steel for the impact plate,the rest can be whatever, keep the impact plate at an angle, also the impact plate needs to give or move when it gets hit, to soften the blow, if you know what I mean, so the lead doesn't disintegrate when it hits. I can't think of anything else.

Three-Fifty-Seven
09-25-2009, 07:49 AM
My Idea is to build one simular to JiminPhx's but about 15"-16"deep of rubber, than a sheet of thin steel (maybe 1/8" an old road sign!) then 1.5" of sand . . . the rubber will stop all my 38 spl, and will slow down my 357's before they hit the steel, which should have some "give" to it as the sand is behind it, if my 270 punches through the steel it still has 1.5 inches of sand +.5" of plywood . . .I'm trying to keep this small . . . if the 270 keeps on going . . . it won't hurt anything as I shoot in front of a gravel pit/bank . . . just trying to keep my lead!

I may also put a "flap" of the same steel, with a flange screwed to the bottom of the rubber area of the box, about 1" in front of the other plate, this will allow the plate to spring some, as long as it is not hit at the very bottom here it is hooked to the box.

JIMinPHX
09-25-2009, 06:17 PM
I think that your 270 is going to tear that thing up. 150-grain slugs from my 30-30 @ about 2000fps went through a little more than 25" of crumb rubber. Your .38's should only go in maybe a foot or so, unless you shoot them into a small group, then you get tunnels in the rubber & they go deeper.

Three-Fifty-Seven
09-26-2009, 09:43 AM
I ended up buying 3 - .8cuft bags @Home Depot of Red shredded rubber mulch @$6.72 per bag!

So . . . I'm gonna hopefully TODAY build a trap 14" X 14" X 20" this will give me 18.5" of rubber & 1.5" of sand . . . time will tell how well it will work . . .

It will be heavy though, each .8 cuft bag weighs 20 pound, and I'll need a tad more than 2.5 of them . . . plus the box & the sand & metal . . . probably be around 70 pounds . . . not too bad, If I end up shooting my 270 more, I may have to build another box to put in front like JiminPhx did.

Jim tell me more about using the cardboard for the target face . . . how long of staples do you need to secure it on so the weight of the rubber doesn't pull it out? Or did you use a strip of something, and the screw that?