Opinions on 44 Gas Checked Boolits?

[h8dirt]

I have tried everything and I can't get one of my 44 Specials to stop lightly leading just forward of the forcing cone. I've decided it's best to move on and find a gas checked bullet for this revolver (a NMBHFT Bisley). I am strongly considering two of Accurate Molds' designs -- the 43-260U and the 43-250KG. I am interested in your opinion of these designs (or others that you'd recommend).

Thanks in advance for your help in finding a gas checked boolit in the 240 - 260 grain range that will shoot accurately at 850 - 1000 fps.

Danny

[Tatume]

Hi Danny,

I personally don't like 43-260U, not enough lube. On the other hand, 43-250KG looks almost like a gas check version of the Keith design. That's the one I would try.

Take care, Tom

[Shooter6br]

Like the 250KG in my Contender 44 mag 14 in Hunter(muzzle brake) I use 8g unique .I don't shoot mag loads.

[Outpost75]

My experience has been that gaschecks are ineffective in revolvers because gas leaks past the bullet in transitioning from the cylinder to the forcing cone. Use of a SOFT lube which flows under pressure and which has good wetting action to coat the bore and forcing cone ahead of the bullet, combined with sufficient bullet diameter to seal the cylinder throats, with a bullet of adequate length that its forepart engages the rifling before its base exits the cylinder, are what is needed to control leading. Bullets which are too hard are more likely to lead than bullets which are too soft. An alloy of 10-12 BHN is fully adequate in revolvers at. 357 and. 44 Magnum velocity.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

If the leading is located beyond where the barrel is screwed into the frame, it could be a case of constriction where the barrel is actually minutely squeezed down by too tight of thread engagement with the frame. This can be cured with fire lapping.

If the leading begins immediately where the forcing cone ends, you might want to check if the cylinder throats are smaller than the barrel groove diameter. In this scenario, the bullet is unersized for the barrel once it leaves the cylinder regardless of what size you actually sized them to. As I remember Ruger had some problem with this for a while. Some calibers were worse than others. This requires reaming/honing the cylinder chambers.

[MtGun44]

I have found no need for GCs in .44 Mag, even with aircooled WWt alloy (11 BHN or so) and full
power loads.

Bill

[h8dirt]

As I said in my OP, I have tried the usual remedies. I should have included that in my post. Some more fidelity … I have done all of the above … and then some. The cylinder throats are properly sized at 0.4305". I have shot bullets sized from 0.001" under throat diameter to 0.0015" over -- 0.0431" worked the best. The groove to groove bore diameter is 0.4295" (after fire lapping). I have used alloy from 8 Bhn to 22 Bhn and several in between -- 12 to 16 worked best at ~900 fps. Most shooting has been done with the NOE SWC 255 grain mold -- it works great in my other three 44 Specials. I have used lube as soft as Darr's formulation and as hard as commercial lubes and several in between -- a 2/1 mix of White's BAC and Carnuaba Red worked best. I have used Unique, WST, Red Dot, Titegroup, Bullseye, 4227 and several others -- Unique, Red Dot and 4227 worked the best. The bore did have thread choke and I fire lapped that out with about 100 shots (but it's gone). The forcing cone and bore are polished to a 600 grit. I have had the forcing cone lapped and polished at 11 degrees by a very competent gunsmith. And, I have tried velocities between 800 fps and 1000 fps to be sure I was getting sufficient obturation. I must have tried over 100 variations of the aforementioned parameters.

If you have a fairly new, stock Ruger that does not lead, consider yourself lucky; I know of a couple, I am sure there are others. I am not that lucky with this particular one. And, I have spent too much money on it to put it on the trash heap. So … I thought I'd try gas checked bullets. That's the basis of my question. Again, thanks for all of the perspectives.

[MT Gianni]

Out of a Rossi 92 I saw no accuracy difference between the 429244 and 429241 so I sold the 244. I have only the Lee 310 that has a gc and do not need them in either a Redhawk or the 44 Lipsey special.

[gwpercle]

I would invest $20.00 in a Lee C429-240-SWC and give the gas check boolit a try. If the gas check cures the leading then you can upgrade to the Accurate mould. If the gas check doesn't work you are not out a bunch of $'s. You just never know how something will work until you give it a go.
Question, does this light leading degrade accuracy or does it's presence just bother you? If you shoot I inch groups then the leading builds up and expands them to 4 inch, yes that's a problem. Just exactly what is happening?
Gary

[Airman Basic]

Why not try some plain base checks? They're cheap or I could send you a few to try out.

[runfiverun]

good idea ^^^
rcbs makes a 240 swc that is super similar to a keith type boolit but takes a gas check.
it's what I use in my ported 445.
the 2 to 1 lube mix you are using does just a tick better with a little lanolin [3-4%] in the mix, or some plain old 2-stroke oil [not the synthetic type] same amount..

[DougGuy]

If you slug your bore will the slug then go into the cylinder throats from the front? If not there could be a problem. Also, how even are the throat diameters from one to another? If your slug will go in some throats but not all, then the leading you are getting could be the work of just one tight throat. If you had luck with a .431" boolit, and the throats are .4305" it's safe to say the boolit was smaller than .431" by the time it got to the bore. It sounds to me like your throats are just a tad on the tight side, and reaming them to .4315" to shoot .431" might cure the problem.

[TomAM]

Hi Danny,

I personally don't like 43-260U, not enough lube. On the other hand, 43-250KG looks almost like a gas check version of the Keith design. That's the one I would try.

Take care, Tom

Short bodied GC designs, with the lube groove directly above the GC, can appear to have inadequate lube.
But remember that 44 cal GCs are only .05" tall inside. This makes a .09" tall groove for a .15" total bearing surface. A much greater lube ratio than the typical Keith.

And don't let the anti-GC crowd discourage you, Danny. I use them all the time. And I unabashedly feel no guilt at all.

[Shuz]

Danny--First let me say that all my experience with the .44 caliber has been with the .44 magnum case utilized. What I have found with a lot of my revolvers is that going to a slower powder like 2400, H-110/296 or WC 820 will completely eliminate any minor leading problems I experience when I use the same plain based boolits with the faster powders like Green Dot and Unique. YMMV.

[Blammer]

I'd go with a fat bullet and a GC to start.

[Kraschenbirn]

I've kinda swung from one end to the other on this issue. Back in my 'silly-whet' days, I wouldn't even consider putting anything over 1000 fps through a revolver without a GC but that was before I knew anything about fitting my boolits to the cylinder throats, polishing/truing forcing cones, bore lapping, 'proper' alloy hardness, etc. Couple times, though, I hit everything right on the money (by pure dumb luck :smile:) and stumbled into a combination that really worked...like the 358156s that, off sandbags, would print under 2" @ 100M from the scoped Smith M586 I shot for Hunter Pistol events or the 'hard-cast' .411s from a custom NEI mould (cut by Walt, himself) that took me to two state IHMSA wins. These days, though, I rarely use GCs for anything except CF rifle. Both my pet .44 Mag loads...one for 'fun' shooting and the other for 'bear country' carry...use plain-base boolits and both run well over 1200 fps from my 4 5/8 OM Vaquero (I've never chrono'd either from my 6" M629) and are more accurate than I can hold. That 'bear-country' load, btw, will stay inside 3" @ 100 yds from my (microgroove) Marlin M1894 (iron sights) with what I consider moderate leading. By 'moderate', I mean that accuracy doesn't seem to deteriorate until I've put 20-25 rounds downrange...and, shooting for real, I figure if I haven't dropped my target with the first ten rounds, I'm not gonna have to worry 'bout reloading, anyway.

Bill

[Tatume]

Short bodied GC designs, with the lube groove directly above the GC, can appear to have inadequate lube.
But remember that 44 cal GCs are only .05" tall inside. This makes a .09" tall groove for a .15" total bearing surface. A much greater lube ratio than the typical Keith.

And don't let the anti-GC crowd discourage you, Danny. I use them all the time. And I unabashedly feel no guilt at all.

After hearing from the expert, I withdraw my objection to the 43-260U design.
Thanks Tom.

[trapper9260]

I shoot my 44 mags with GC and that is in my redhawk and marlin all the same load and boolit and I do not have any leading,I use the old NRA lube with ATF .I make my own lube.

[Blackwater]

Leading in revolvers can sometimes be a pretty curious thing. In my Super Blackhawk, I sometimes get a little streak of leading, but it never builds up, and the accuracy is more than my old eyes can make use of these days, so I don't give it a thought. It gives good enough accuracy to hit 5 gal buckets at a bit over 200 yds. across a pond, and that's as good as I need, and more than I'd attempt to use on game like deer, so I figure I'm good to go.

One point to consider: Sometimes, and I'm not sure why, fire lapping TOO smoothly can sometimes increase leading rather than prevent it. Is there any chance you've gone too far in creating a smooth barrel finish????

[EDK]

You've done a lot of homework on this, but what about....

Have you tried other designs? I'd suggest a round nose flat point design just to see if the same symptoms occur. I have a MIHEC 434640 plain base and a LYMAN original gas check plus RANCH DOG designs in plain base and gas check.

Could there be issues with the cylinder alignment or barrel/cylinder gap.

[h8dirt]

You've done a lot of homework on this, but what about....

Have you tried other designs? I'd suggest a round nose flat point design just to see if the same symptoms occur. I have a MIHEC 434640 plain base and a LYMAN original gas check plus RANCH DOG designs in plain base and gas check.

Could there be issues with the cylinder alignment or barrel/cylinder gap.
Thanks, EDK. I am in the process of trying another mold -- a gas checked one from Accurate Mold. The barrel/cylinder gap is 0.005" - 0.006" which, while a little more than I would prefer, should be OK. I checked the alignment myself with a range rod -- all is good there (I had an oversized base pin and cylinder latch installed a couple of years ago and the gunsmith did a great job of timing it).

[h8dirt]

Leading in revolvers can sometimes be a pretty curious thing. In my Super Blackhawk, I sometimes get a little streak of leading, but it never builds up, and the accuracy is more than my old eyes can make use of these days, so I don't give it a thought. It gives good enough accuracy to hit 5 gal buckets at a bit over 200 yds. across a pond, and that's as good as I need, and more than I'd attempt to use on game like deer, so I figure I'm good to go.


One point to consider: Sometimes, and I'm not sure why, fire lapping TOO smoothly can sometimes increase leading rather than prevent it. Is there any chance you've gone too far in creating a smooth barrel finish????

Thanks, Blackwater. Guilty as charged -- the bore looks like a mirror.

[h8dirt]

If you slug your bore will the slug then go into the cylinder throats from the front? If not there could be a problem. Also, how even are the throat diameters from one to another? If your slug will go in some throats but not all, then the leading you are getting could be the work of just one tight throat. If you had luck with a .431" boolit, and the throats are .4305" it's safe to say the boolit was smaller than .431" by the time it got to the bore. It sounds to me like your throats are just a tad on the tight side, and reaming them to .4315" to shoot .431" might cure the problem.

Thanks, DougGuy. That was one of the first things I checked. All is well with the fits. The throats are about 0.001" larger than the groove-to-groove bore dimension.

[h8dirt]

I would invest $20.00 in a Lee C429-240-SWC and give the gas check boolit a try. If the gas check cures the leading then you can upgrade to the Accurate mould. If the gas check doesn't work you are not out a bunch of $'s. You just never know how something will work until you give it a go.
Question, does this light leading degrade accuracy or does it's presence just bother you? If you shoot I inch groups then the leading builds up and expands them to 4 inch, yes that's a problem. Just exactly what is happening?
Gary
Thanks for the idea but the Lee mold drops "boolits" at 0.429" -- too small.

[h8dirt]

Short bodied GC designs, with the lube groove directly above the GC, can appear to have inadequate lube.
But remember that 44 cal GCs are only .05" tall inside. This makes a .09" tall groove for a .15" total bearing surface. A much greater lube ratio than the typical Keith.

And don't let the anti-GC crowd discourage you, Danny. I use them all the time. And I unabashedly feel no guilt at all.

Thanks, Tom. I think you have me on the road to recovery. Thread closed. OP, out.

Danny

[edctexas]

You need to leement your 0.429 mold or beagle it. I polished mine with two different abrasives on a boolit. and now it works. The 0.429 might be good if you PC the boolits. I bought a second Lee mold to get smaller boolits so I can PC them to size. They work quite well as to the larger (+0.0015) lubed boolits in my Ruger SBH. I don't shoot'em fast enough for GC. My fast load is 15gr of 2400, but I'm out of 2400!

Ed C

[Tar Heel]

I have found no need for GCs in .44 Mag, even with aircooled WWt alloy (11 BHN or so) and full power loads. Bill

^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That being said, if a particular bullet strikes my fancy and it has a GC design, I shoot it with a GC. The GC may not solve your leading issue however. I guess you have deduced that by now by reading the responses. I would order the bullet from Tom and see if that, in fact, does fix the leading. If not you still have a great bullet and can keep on the hunt for the root cause of the leading.

[reloader28]

I think sometimes you just need a gas check.
Sometimes I use them and sometimes I dont, depends on my load.

I think I would definatly find someone with plain base gas checks and give them a try first. Thats by far the cheapest way to find out.
I made a PB check maker myself, and it works, but not good enough that I would send checks to anyone.
A 45 check maker should make 44 PB checks.

It does seem kinda strange that your having lead problems in a 44 spl though.

[Forrest r]

I like to use gc's with the "thompson" designed bullets in the 44's. The thin drive bands on the 3 different thompson designed bullets that I cast/use just seem to shoot better with gc's on them.

A lyman 429303 that has the small thin multi-drive bands.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/429303_zpsdc534574.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/429303_zpsdc534574.jpg.html)

A saeco 2220g swc/200g hpswc that has the thin multi-drive bands.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/142s_zpsf73eb48e.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/142s_zpsf73eb48e.jpg.html)

Just finished pc'ing/sizing/gc'ing a couple hundred 429244's that were cast from an old ideal mold.

I do put gc's on the lee 310g fp bullets also, haven't noticed a difference with them 1 way or the other accuracy wise. But the gc tends to cut down on the little bit of smoke I get with some powder/pc'd bullet combo's, namely power pistol loads. I made a home made gc makers & it's not hard to make the gc's out of al flashing so if a mold is designed for a gc, I put them on.

I tried pb gc's for awhile but wasn't very impressed with them. Made pb gc makers for the 9mm/357/44's and did allot of testing with them. Pc'ing bullets proved to be better than the pb gc's and did away with them along with taking care of any under-sized molds.

[Tar Heel]

This may be a silly question but are you currently moving them FAST enough?

[h8dirt]

I closed this thread, but … I wanted to thank all of you that have taken the time to provide input since then. So you know, I have three other 44 Specials for which I have matched loads and they shoot superbly -- two of them are Ruger OMBH caliber conversions. In fact, one of them will consistently shoot under 1.5 inches at 50 yards without any leading at all. So, the issue is with this particular Ruger NMBHFT (the "runt" of my litter). I am moving to a gas checked bullet because NOTHING else seems to work in it. Again, thread closed, OP out -- many, many thanks to all. I appreciate your kindness and helpfulness. Thread closed.

Danny

[h8dirt]

This is a follow up to my original post.

Tom over at Accurate Molds helped me find what I was looking for and it solved the leading issue in my NMFT Bisley. I ended up buying one of his 431250TG molds. It casts beautiful bullets five at a time. I have a FA97 in 44 Special with a Trijiccon RMR that has always been a great shooter. So, I decided to see if Tom's bullet would hang with the 250 grain plain based Keith designs (RCBS and NOE's) that have regularly given me 1.5 ~ 2 inch groups at 50 yards with the FA. This Accurate Molds bullet really is a shooter with groups routinely under 2" at 50 yards if I do my part. My second group today was an all time best -- 0.490" center to center for five shots off of the bags. All I can say is -- Tom, well done!!! And, THANK YOU!

[Doggonekid]

I find in todays world it is hard to go buy 2400 or H110 or most any other slow burning powder. If all you have is Unique or faster I would recommend a GC. If you have a bunch of slow burning powder let the rest of us know where to get it. I have gone both ways and got good results from each.

[h8dirt]

I find in todays world it is hard to go buy 2400 or H110 or most any other slow burning powder. If all you have is Unique or faster I would recommend a GC. If you have a bunch of slow burning powder let the rest of us know where to get it. I have gone both ways and got good results from each.

H4227 is the slowest thing I have been able to find. I have not seen 2400 in so long I can't remember when it was. My brother stumbled across a pound of H110 about 6 months ago and picked it up for me, but that's it. I am saving it for 454 Casull loads. But … in my 44 Specials, as long as I can push a 250 grain bullet at near 1000 fps and get <3" groups at 50 yards, I am OK with Unique and 4227.