How to make bullets larger?

[rosewood]

Still having a leading problem with my Buffalo Classic in 45-70. I have tried honing and beagling and just don't seem to be able to get the stupid boolits to drop big enough. I may revisit this later, but have other questions first.

I have done a lot of searching and cannot seem to find the answers to my questions on this forum and on internet searches. I am probably just missing it so if you know a thread that covers this, please point me to it.

My questions at this point are:
Is there a die of some sort that will enlarge a boolit? Something that presses it into a larger diameter? If so, who sells them and can I get one that will enlarge from say .458 to .461? I may have run across this on a post, but I am still new at casting and do not know all of the terminology.

Does water dropping make boolits smaller? Would air cool make the finished boolit larger?

I am using standard WW for casting. Is there something I can add to the alloy which will make them cast larger?

Thanks,

Rosewood

[dh2]

"I am using standard WW for casting. Is there something I can add to the alloy which will make them cast larger?"
Yes, Antimony 5% in the alloy will make the boolit drop about .001 to .002 larger

[bobthenailer]

No larger for air or water cool
A harder alloy like #2 and more so with linotype will make a slightly larger bullet, but .002 larger may not be possible with just a alloy change .
What i did was BEAGEL my mould when i wanted bullets to cast .433 instead . of the norm .431 dia
There are STICKIES covering this procedure !

[Artful]

Is there a die of some sort that will enlarge a boolit? Something that presses it into a larger diameter? If so, who sells them and can I get one that will enlarge from say .458 to .461? I may have run across this on a post, but I am still new at casting and do not know all of the terminology.

Swaging dies will let you squash 'em to make a boolit size to larger diameter but requires
an expensive die set.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?70468-helpful-links-to-swaging

- you can also beagle your mold.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117331-Mould-Enlargement-%93beagling%94

but before I went to either of those I'd consider
1) powder coating it
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?240500-a-trick-for-tumble-powder-coating

2) paper patching
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34782-Paper-101

Have you slugged your bore and found it's an actual .461?

Temp of your alloy and composition of your alloy does effect finished cast boolit size.
read thru this
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Custom molds are available for the size you decide you need, but again I'd go for the inexpensive fix first.

[leftiye]

Maybe you could try watering them:kidding:.

[rosewood]

Thanks guys, good reading for me to dig into.

[rosewood]

Maybe you could try watering them:kidding:.

I tried that by watering dropping. Didn't help. :)

[rosewood]

I have thought about paper patch and powder coating, but I am trying to make it easy. Don't want to spend too much time on each boolit. May look into this eventually.

I have not measured the bore, but have measured the throat and it is about .461. I was told you have to fit the throat not the bore to prevent leading.

Still trying to get the terminology. By definition, swaging can be reducing or enlarging the size. So technically running through a resize die is swaging. When it comes to cast boolits, are we defining swaging as enlarging?

Skimming through some of those links provided on swaging and some the sticky links are busted.

Is there a link to who makes swaging dies? Anyone have any experience/recommendations with using a swaging die in a O press?

Thanks,

Rosewood

[btroj]

Maybe you could try watering them:kidding:.

Nope, far better to put a ring on them. That tends to always make things get larger.....

[btroj]

Seriously, that is a large increase. If you needed .001 it might be doable with alloy manipulation. You need enough that Beagling is the best choice. Well, that or a new mould cut to cast the size you need.

[GhostHawk]

Rosewood if it was me I would first slug my barrel.

Then buy a cheap Lee mold 2 thousandths bigger.

Try those bullets, if they work without leading then order a good NOE, or Lyman, etc.

Instead of looking at expensive swaging setup, you might investigate a Lee Push through sizer a couple thousandths bigger than your currently getting, give a bullet a tap with a hammer and size it round again.

Go easy on the flattening, don't want to take off the lube grooves. Just want to bring the drive bands up a thousandth's or 2.

Something to consider anyway.

[Ben]

rosewood (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?37341-rosewood)

a new mould cut to cast the size you need.

You'll get quicker satisfaction with this than anything that has been suggested so far.

Ben

[Toymaker]

I went to a softer bullet and solved the problem. I took a page from the book of muzzleloading and changed over to a pure lead 405 grain bullet. End of leading and greatly improved accuracy. The soft bullet was expanding to fill the bore. Then I started increasing the tin content to make the bullet harder until the leading came back and accuracy went to pot. No antimony, just tin. Right around 20:1, maybe a little under, is where things started going sour. Next I sold the rifle and told the new owner the secret to successful reloading for it.

[Bigslug]

If you've not been there already, read the sticky titled "FYI, this is how I do a pound cast". Do that, then slug the bore.

You may just have a rifle/mold combo that does not play well together. It happens. Swaging and Beagling may get you the extra thousandths, but at what cost to the overall shape and accuracy of the bullet? The good news is that one .45-70 mold in your collection isn't enough. . .not nearly enough!

[Hickok]

Have you tried the Lee 459-405-HB? It will cast .460+ with acww. Also has a hollow base that may help "bump up" to fill bore diameter.

[rosewood]

Rosewood if it was me I would first slug my barrel.

Then buy a cheap Lee mold 2 thousandths bigger.

Try those bullets, if they work without leading then order a good NOE, or Lyman, etc.

Instead of looking at expensive swaging setup, you might investigate a Lee Push through sizer a couple thousandths bigger than your currently getting, give a bullet a tap with a hammer and size it round again.

Go easy on the flattening, don't want to take off the lube grooves. Just want to bring the drive bands up a thousandth's or 2.

Something to consider anyway.

Where can you get the Lee mold .002 bigger? Lee said they don't sell custom molds, only custom resize dies.

I thought about tapping the boolit but was unsure about how precise that would be.

[rosewood]

rosewood (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?37341-rosewood)

a new mould cut to cast the size you need.

You'll get quicker satisfaction with this than anything that has been suggested so far.

Ben

That is kind of what I figured. I just bought the Lee mold to start with because of price and those custom manufactures cost a lot more. The Lee molds have been great for the gas checked boolit molds I have used so far.

[rosewood]

Have you tried the Lee 459-405-HB? It will cast .460+ with acww. Also has a hollow base that may help "bump up" to fill bore diameter.

I saw that mold when I purchased the .457-405 mold I have. Wasn't sure if it would work with smokeless powder in the 45-70. Has this helped others with the leading problem? Thanks.

[guncheese]

here is a thought
are you getting enough expansion in your case before you seat the bullet?
are you swaging it down?
i have a couple lee 45/70 expansion plugs and they will leave brass at a .454" dia.
that may squeeze your bullet just enough to make you undersize

also powder coat will help you its cheap and easy (just eat some cool whip and buy a pound of harbor freight red powder)
as well as paper patching thats a bit more work but gee this is 45/70 your not talking that many rounds here

[rosewood]

I tried not sizing the case and the boolits will not hold in place. I have to seat them extra deep (pass the crimp groove) and the rim is on the down slope of the nose so if I don't neck size (I have the Lyman neck size die), when I try to knock the bell off, it pushes the boolit deeper. I have wondered about the case swaging down the boolit myself.

I just so happen to pass HF on the way to and from work, shoot, I can see their sign out my office window. I will swing by and grab some of that powder. Can it be applied without special equipment?

Thanks,

Rosewood

[MtGun44]

Try softer alloy to get them to slug up, or try the excellent Lee 405 HB mold, which was created
for the .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield.

Bill

[guncheese]

yes
i bet for testing just a cool whip tub and the RED powder. i say red as it covers real easy and the coat is very tough, just look how it hangs
http://goo.gl/r8BLgf
check out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives section here in the forum
everything you need to know is there

[rosewood]

Try softer alloy to get them to slug up, or try the excellent Lee 405 HB mold, which was created
for the .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield.

Bill

Hmm. Maybe I should have bought the HB mold for the BUffalo Classic then. If that will solve my problem. I will order one. I guess the other mold will work well in the 45-70 marlin?

If buying a mold will solve my leading problem, I am all for it. I don't like chasing rabbits and trying this and that. Although, I will do what I have to do to fix my problem.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[Smoke4320]

"try the excellent Lee 405 HB mold"

that and PC and you will be all good .. It will seal up and no leading

[R3104D3R]

Lap it out with a hardened cast boolit smeared with lapping compound until it's large enough for your needs. Embed a post into it, without using the sprue plate, so you can chuck it in a drill.

Typically every cavity will be slightly different afterwards, so you may only want to lap one cavity.

[rosewood]

yes
i bet for testing just a cool whip tub and the RED powder. i say red as it covers real easy and the coat is very tough, just look how it hangs
http://goo.gl/r8BLgf
check out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives section here in the forum
everything you need to know is there

Leaning toward the HB mold, but am interested in this powder coating. I have been poking around on the thread you listed and there is so many links with so many pages I could read for years. Is there a particular link that has a instruction list for powder coating boolits? Or powder coating anything else for that matter?

I.e.

1. Put boolits in small plastic container and add powder coat.
2. shake vigorously
3. put in oven and bake for ___ degrees for ___Hours.

My in-laws have a ceramic oven that they want to get rid of. Gonna claim it and I bet it will be perfect for baking on powder coats. Gonna go pick it up this weekend. :) They will be glad to get it out of their garage.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[guncheese]

those big gobs of lead will take a bit to heat up
so

1. Put boolits in small plastic container and add powder coat. cool whip tub works a treat and add some Air Soft BBs that may help cushion those big gobs of lead as well as help with static creation
2. shake vigorously swirling is better as it wont bruise the boolits and creates better static charge
3. put in oven and bake at 400 degrees for .25 Hours. that time should be started after the coating flows out

after you give the cheap harbor freight red a try
then get some GOOD powder from Smoke4320 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?29775-Smoke4320)
i recommended the HF red powder as it will get you going and you can just swing in a grab it (and it really is TOUGH)

[Artful]

I have thought about paper patch and powder coating, but I am trying to make it easy. Don't want to spend too much time on each boolit. May look into this eventually.
Your shooting rifle rounds not the 10's of thousands of competitive pistol right?

I have not measured the bore, but have measured the throat and it is about .461. I was told you have to fit the throat not the bore to prevent leading.
You actually want it over bore diameter and a snug fit in the throat

Still trying to get the terminology. By definition, swaging can be reducing or enlarging the size. So technically running through a resize die is swaging. When it comes to cast boolits, are we defining swaging as enlarging?
Swaging is the process of using pressure to resize the bullet core - when using a cast boolit we typically use a sizing die which sizes down and uniforms it. When making jacketed bullets you typically size up locking the lead core inside the jacket and creating the point form.

Skimming through some of those links provided on swaging and some the sticky links are busted.
What can you say there's plenty more threads in that forum. You can go to Corbin's site and read more if you don't want to do you research here. http://www.corbins.com/howto.htm

Is there a link to who makes swaging dies? Anyone have any experience/recommendations with using a swaging die in a O press? I've used .224 dies to make J-word - here's the process on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pwl4x-Lb-g


Thanks,

Richard
http://www.ch4d.com/

[rosewood]

those big gobs of lead will take a bit to heat up
so

1. Put boolits in small plastic container and add powder coat. cool whip tub works a treat and add some Air Soft BBs that may help cushion those big gobs of lead as well as help with static creation
2. shake vigorously swirling is better as it wont bruise the boolits and creates better static charge
3. put in oven and bake at 400 degrees for .25 Hours. that time should be started after the coating flows out

after you give the cheap harbor freight red a try
then get some GOOD powder from Smoke4320 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?29775-Smoke4320)
i recommended the HF red powder as it will get you going and you can just swing in a grab it (and it really is TOUGH)

Awesome. Thanks!! Academy is across the street also, will grab some air soft from there. I sometimes forget how well located my work is. As long as you are gone before dark. :)

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfcbDCYQPw

[wmitty]

rosewood

It's awful easy to wrap a couple of your boolits up to throat diameter with notebook paper and try 'em. It becomes addicting, too.

[Yodogsandman]

Yes, just a clean Cool Whip container and maybe some black airsoft BBs. The shake and bake method is to place some boolits in the container with a teaspoon or two of powder and swirl them around and shake up and down. Static electricity makes the powder cling to the boolits. The airsoft BBs will provide more static electricity for better coverage. Use two layers of BBs on the bottom, if you need to. Transfer the boolits to a tray covered with non-stick aluminum foil with hemostats, needle nose pliers or plastic gloved fingers coated in powder. Then bake boolits for 10-15minutes (per manufacturer) after the oven gets to temperature. Let boolits cool and then size. Good luck with them!

[Hickok]

I saw that mold when I purchased the .457-405 mold I have. Wasn't sure if it would work with smokeless powder in the 45-70. Has this helped others with the leading problem? Thanks.Yes it works very well with smokeless powder. And for about $20 for the mold, it doesn't cost much to give it a try. Mine drops a boolit right at 460"-461" with ACWW+ 2% tin.

[w30wcf]

I have bumped up bullets using an aluminum pin placed inside of the case. Back out the seating die so that it does not crimp and the fired case fits into the die with no interference. Place the bullet and case into the shellholder and run it up into the die. Adjust the seating stem down to touch the bullet. Back off the ram and adjust the seating stem down 1/4 turn. Run the case back up into the die. Adjust the seating stem a bit at a time until the desired bullet size is reached.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45-70bumpingcase.jpg

w30wcf

[rosewood]

Haven't been working on this much since my last post, but have been thinking about what to do. I remember someone saying that I should not size the brass but that the bullet should fit comfortably in the brass neck. What does comfortable mean? Just enough to hold in place? Thumb pressure to seat? Problem I have with that is it is too loose and will not stay in place and I can't crimp because I had to seat extra deep so it wouldn't drive into the rifling and crimping pushes the boolit back in the case. So I bought a neck size die from Lyman to seat the boolits, but still having issues.

All that being said, I was looking at dies on the trackofthewolf website and noticed they sell different powder funnel/belling inserts for the Lee dies. They also sell larger Lee sizing dies cheaper than a custom one from Lee. That set me to wondering what size I have been using. I have been using a Dillon powder die. It measures .454 in the expanding section. So that leaves me to thinking that when I force the cast boolit into the case at .454, it is possible the case is swaging down the boolit. I measured my Lee expander and it measures .456. Is the brass rigid enough to swage down the boolit? Should I order a .460 expander for my Lee Powder die? Is there a good rule of thumb on the size for the expander? 0.002 smaller than throat?, same size?, etc to maintain enough grip to hold the boolit in place? Maybe this is my entire problem if the cases are swaging down the boolit even before I shoot.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[MtGun44]

Another vote for Lee 405 HB mold.

Bill

[rosewood]

Another vote for Lee 405 HB mold.

Bill
But what size expander should I use with it?

[R3104D3R]

But what size expander should I use with it?

The NOE 45PEXP neck expander plug? It should give .457 to the neck.

[rosewood]

The NOE 45PEXP neck expander plug? It should give .457 to the neck.

I will be getting the Lee expander from trackofthewolf for my Lee die. Was just wondering how much smaller the expander should be than the boolit diameter to hold the boolit but not swage it smaller.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[sawzall]

I will be getting the Lee expander from trackofthewolf for my Lee die. Was just wondering how much smaller the expander should be than the boolit diameter to hold the boolit but not swage it smaller.

Thanks,

Rosewood
For a single shot you don't need much more neck tension than press fitting the bullet by hand. Recoil won't pull bullets or deep seat them in a magazine or tube. Go with minimal neck tension to avoid sizing down the boolit. Use the NOE expander plug and aim for no more than a .001" fit.

[mdi]

I had a similar problem with a Puma barrel that slugged at .433"+. I tried all the normal stuff (alloy, melt temperature, which worked pretty good, and beagling tape) and considered simple swaging; using a push through die of appropriate diameter, in this case .434", using a nose punch to fit the pointy end, and a "pin" for the base. Insert the bullet, squeeze, and the bullet would swage up to fill the die ID. I ran into snags of acquiring punches (mostly) and dies so I dropped the idea, and my budget was pretty thin at the time. I solved my problem with a Ranch Dog mold that dropped .433" bullets and gas checked them...

[Pilgrim]

Dunno about your .45-70 dies, but my RCBS .357 carbide dies do damage my boolits. The expander die mic's at .354, and a .3575 +/- is squeezed down to ~.356 and partially closes one grease groove. I'm waiting on a new expander plug from RCBS (RCBS = N/C for the fix. Helluva company!) that should fix the problem. BTW - the boolits are BHN of 14/15. Softer boolits should be damaged even more. Pilgrim

[CLP]

Nope, far better to put a ring on them. That tends to always make things get larger.....


Lol. I don't think anyone else caught that...