Infraction list on the closed thread and an explanation needed for one item

[jonp]

I read the closed thread on the infractions and how they work and I have no problem with how this is done. In fact, I think it is pretty lenient to give 3 shots at it before your out. I do have a question on one of the items, though.

"Condescending\Arrogant\Elitist" is listed as an infraction. This seems kinda vague to me and a matter of opinion at best. Everyone can pretty much point to what swearing at another member or a mod looks like and selling items on another sight is specific enough that there is no question on what it means but the above infraction is not cut and dried.

Anyone want to take a stab at what "Elitist" looks like? Where is the line between self-assured and knowledgeable on a subject and "Arrogant"?

[FISH4BUGS]

I read the closed thread on the infractions and how they work and I have no problem with how this is done. In fact, I think it is pretty lenient to give 3 shots at it before your out. I do have a question on one of the items, though.

"Condescending\Arrogant\Elitist" is listed as an infraction. This seems kinda vague to me and a matter of opinion at best. Everyone can pretty much point to what swearing at another member or a mod looks like and selling items on another sight is specific enough that there is no question on what it means but the above infraction is not cut and dried.

Anyone want to take a stab at what "Elitist" looks like? Where is the line between self-assured and knowledgeable on a subject and "Arrogant"?


There isn't an explanation or a definition. It IS a judgement call. That's why the mods get the big bucks. This isn't a court of law, it is a prtivate web site that requires "membership" to post. That does not give ANYONE the right to be a jerk.
If someone is bumping up against the "line" that is left to a mod to decide, I trust the mod's judgment. The mods, I am sure, talk amongst themselves and have other mods take a look at the messages posted before sancitning a member.
If someone is bumping up against that line, they probably should be sanctioned anyway. Fair? Who knows? But that is up to the mods.
Don't like it? Go somewhere else. I bumped up against that line once and got my hands slapped. It was fair, although I disagreed.
The important thing is that I learned my lesson. If you don't learn your lesson, and commit three infractions, I am not sure that is the kind of person we want here. This is a great site and does not deserver *****s posting stupid stuff.
Rant off.

[jonp]

I agree with your post FISH4BUGGS. I've owned a couple of websites and had to mod a few others. Some of the threads on this sight have run longer than I would have let go if I was a mod so there is no complaint on my part. Your argument is pretty much my view. It's a free sight, if you don't like the rules then mosey on down the WWW road.

I was just opening a discussion on this topic to get others views on this subject.

[JWFilips]

Anyone want to take a stab at what "Elitist" looks like? Where is the line between self-assured and knowledgeable on a subject and "Arrogant"?


Knowing more then the Mod that flagged it?

[waksupi]

I read the closed thread on the infractions and how they work and I have no problem with how this is done. In fact, I think it is pretty lenient to give 3 shots at it before your out. I do have a question on one of the items, though.

"Condescending\Arrogant\Elitist" is listed as an infraction. This seems kinda vague to me and a matter of opinion at best. Everyone can pretty much point to what swearing at another member or a mod looks like and selling items on another sight is specific enough that there is no question on what it means but the above infraction is not cut and dried.

Anyone want to take a stab at what "Elitist" looks like? Where is the line between self-assured and knowledgeable on a subject and "Arrogant"?


Remember Starmetal?

[jsizemore]

I was just opening a discussion on this topic to get others views on this subject.

That's a no win discussion.

[hiram1]

i for one think the mods do a gooooood job

[SciFiJim]

Knowing more then the Mod that flagged it?
I think this would be an example of pushing the "Condescending\Arrogant\Elitist" line.
Got to call them like I see them.


Some of the threads on this sight have run longer than I would have let go if I was a mod so there is no complaint on my part.

Agree on this one. Glad I'm not a mod.

I have often written a scathing reply to a post, reread it, then deleted it instead of posting it. It has saved me from ever having an infraction.

I keep in mind that principle of only posting something I would say in mixed company with my mother, wife and daughter present.

If I don't have something to add within those contexts, I am better off not saying anything.

[oneokie]

Look on the www for a definition of elitist. There are many to choose from.

[jonp]

Remember Starmetal?

No I don't. Care to give me the gist of the thing?

[jonp]

That's a no win discussion.

This is not an "argument to win" thread.

[jonp]

Knowing more then the Mod that flagged it?

Considering my experience in casting vs about everyone else here including the mods I'm not in danger of that.

[45 2.1]

Look on the www for a definition of elitist. There are many to choose from.

Yep, I've done that. It all goes back to how someone else judges what the written word says. Pretty well a monotonic colorless situation of the complex human language irregardless of ones thoughts. Fair? That is another question entirely.

[jsizemore]

This is not an "argument to win" thread.

Still doesn't get it.

[jonp]

Still doesn't get it.

That's elitist. ;)

[SharpsShooter]

Remember Starmetal?

Dear God yes! If it was even remotely possible to be known about rotational velocity, alloys, brain surgery, rocket scientist you get the idea I'm sure… And when he started to tell you something it was the most overbearing omnipotent "I'M THE GUY THAT KNOWS IT ALL" manner of speaking.

And that was the nice part about him...........


SS

[btroj]

I don't know what it means either but it seems mods think I do........

and nd before those mods get all riled up, that was sarcasm. A form of humor. Ha ha

[waksupi]

No I don't. Care to give me the gist of the thing?

Do a search on the name, and read some of the threads. I seem to recall he was banned not once, but twice. He used up every one's fun tickets for such behavior.

[Bazoo]

I've not had a problem with the mods, or the rules. I came here to learn about, and possibly help others learn about something that I enjoy doing. That is casting and reloading. If I wanted to argue about stuff that dont matter, i'll just tell the wife her rump is fat and see where it leads me.

[Artful]

No I don't. Care to give me the gist of the thing?
Google is your friend...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=2194579

[btroj]

I've not had a problem with the mods, or the rules. I came here to learn about, and possibly help others learn about something that I enjoy doing. That is casting and reloading. If I wanted to argue about stuff that dont matter, i'll just tell the wife her rump is fat and see where it leads me.

Just get involved in a discussion about a hotly disputed topic. Think of a Ford/Chevy discussion on a car board. Think that doesn't quickly get heated even though all love cars?

[Bored1]

The arrogant/elitist tag is completely subjective. LEAVE the MODS ALONE and you prolly won't get one! You're treading on thin ice at this point. . . . .

I would leave that dog lay.

[RoyEllis]

Man, am I safe!!! I'm not elitist cause I like just about anything that can send an aimed projectile toward a target with even a modicum of accuracy. I'm not arrogant or condescending cause I know just enough to know that I don't know more than about 1/2 of anything.
Life is gooood!:bigsmyl2:

[Alvarez Kelly]

Man, am I safe!!! I'm not elitist cause I like just about anything that can send an aimed projectile toward a target with even a modicum of accuracy. I'm not arrogant or condescending cause I know just enough to know that I don't know more than about 1/2 of anything.

Hey! I resemble that remark! :-)

[Bazoo]

Just get involved in a discussion about a hotly disputed topic. Think of a Ford/Chevy discussion on a car board. Think that doesn't quickly get heated even though all love cars?

This is true. However, it takes 2 to argue. I preclude myself from it. Even when personally attacked. I find it funny that others get their panties in a twist. At the end of the day, I dont really care though, and I dont have to live with anyone but my wife. This doesnt mean I wont put in my opinion and discuss it thoroughly however, It just means I dont get upset and make a fool of myself.

[Blacksmith]

I don't know what it means either but it seems mods think I do........

and nd before those mods get all riled up, that was sarcasm. A form of humor. Ha ha

btroj you used the wrong font color (that is elitist) but I FIFY! :smile:

[dragon813gt]

Anyone want to take a stab at what "Elitist" looks like? Where is the line between self-assured and knowledgeable on a subject and "Arrogant"?
Their Avatars are easy to recognize. No need to go any deeper than that.

Which BTW is amusing on Tapatalk. When I quote someone I see their previous Avatar. Makes quickly browsing through a thread w/ lots of quoted posts a chore when looking for a post from a specific person.

[jonp]

Care to explain your avatar comment?

[dragon813gt]

Yeah, it's easy to identify the elitists by their avatars. Sure we could name names but that just causes problems. I find it's easy to ignore posts when I see a particular avatar.

[ballistim]

I just try to learn and stay out of trouble and hope my avatar is not too offensive [emoji6]

[Char-Gar]

Many of the infractions are very subjective. You really don't know until the hammer falls. There really are no well defined lines in this stuff.

To be fair, I really don't see how lines can be drawn with great specificity when dealing with subjective matters. You can only hope that folks making subjective decisions can lay aside their feelings about an individual poster and make an objective decision as best they can. Over the years, I have had to make "judgment calls" on some very important matters that had major impacts on person's lives. I took the responsibility very seriously and never made it based on my feeling about an individual. I tried to evaluate the conduct without an emotional bias. At times, this mean I had to defer making the decision until I could do so dispassionately. Being quick on the trigger is not a good qualification to be a decision maker, unless you are in actual combat with an actual enemy.

The same dispassionate stance should be taken by the poster as well. At times, threads become acrimonious and personal strife between individuals. The subject matter become lost in the personal conflict. This is never good and when this starts, it is time to say what you will about the content and move on. I try my best to do this, although I have not always done so.

There is also an integrity factory in all of this. Posters should be able to be true to truth as they know it to be. It is wrong to not be straight forward and honest because it might not be pleasing to some. Pleasing others is not an ultimate goal in life.

[Char-Gar]

Anyone want to take a stab at what "Elitist" looks like? Where is the line between self-assured and knowledgeable on a subject and "Arrogant"?


That is an excellent question and I have no answer to it having found myself on the wrong side of that line on several occasions. I added a disclaimer as a signature line several years ago, hoping folks would read it and understand the context and nature of my opinions. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

[blackthorn]

Partial quote-"I agree with your post FISH4BUGGS----- Some of the threads on this sight have run longer than I would have let go if I was a mod so there is no complaint on my part."

One of the things I really like about this site is that topics are allowed to run, usually until the subject has been exhausted. This happens even though we often get "thread drift". I dislike sites that are too quick to kill a promising thread because it goes a bit awry, or simply runs longer than the Mod thinks it should, or simply because it is an old subject and "has been discussed before"! This site ROCKS!

[Thin Man]

I will say that i appreciate the job the Mods do in keeping this site civil. My former day job involved, as one of it's elements, sorting out and settling (best as could be done) civil and domestic disturbances. These were disagreements between family members or associates. I was paid to get between the factions, separate them, listen to both parties' explanation of the disagreement, then work to mediate peace and closure to the rift. Some of these situations were humorous, or silly, or outright ridiculous. They could be loud or quiet. They could be calm or with fists flying, or lethal force threatened or attempted or used.
Sometimes I was in danger, sometimes I got hurt. But I knew this was part of the environment and my role was to restore peace by whatever means were reasonable and necessary. I was paid to do this. This was my job.

Then came the internet with sites to educate, amuse and enlighten. These had contributors who could bring true wisdom to the reader, and expand one's horizons. Most contributors were willing to help for only the price of taking the time to read their contribution. But there were a few people who could not enter a discussion without starting a war. They looked for opportunities to fire off at other contributors, and even invented arguments for the same of feeling superior. They spoiled the discussions and left all with a sour taste for the thread or site. Including me. My time visiting these sites was voluntary, not paid. I did not enjoy going into domestic or civil disturbance calls when at work, but that was my job, paid to do this. As for internet interaction, I found my response was to leave a site and not return. I had been paid to risk taking bumps and lumps at my day job, but chose not to let that happen in my recreational computer time. I left those sites where abuse and emotion ruled the conversation, never to return.

And that is why I have continued to come here. The Mods have kept this site as civil and mature as one could hope to find. Topics are educational and entertaining, and emotions are kept in check. Disagreements are resolved in adult dialog without flames roasting anyone. Disagreements are offered to show an alternate method for solving a problem or to help one avoid a costly or dangerous mistake, not to throw insults for another's actions. Responsibility rules.

If the definitions of the rules are a bit ambiguous, that is probably because the actions that trigger them also can be. I for one will continue to "stop & shop" here primarily because of the civil attitude offered by most members. I am here to learn and to share my experiences if these can benefit others. I know I have rattled on too far, so my closing thought is to offer a salute to the Mods who keep this site the most comfortable site I have ever found. THANK YOU MODS.

Thin Man

[Harter66]

I can sight several times when I first joined when the suggestion was to read the stickies and there's no such bbl as that ever made . It was stated in such a way that it fit all of the categories. It took me about 3 questions to figure out that since I had a tiny post count and a very recent join date that I needed to micro detail my entire process that lead up to the question and all of my efforts to resolve the problem. It is easier now but I sometimes see the same over tones with other new guys. Why I don't know I've not been reminded that I may have erred in a response I don't know.

It also helps to know that some of the codgers just have no sense of humor or are just so wry that they NEED a wing man to say "but he means that in the most sincere helpful way and here lemme knock these hard corners off ,there ya go".

[Char-Gar]

I can sight several times when I first joined when the suggestion was to read the stickies and there's no such bbl as that ever made . It was stated in such a way that it fit all of the categories. It took me about 3 questions to figure out that since I had a tiny post count and a very recent join date that I needed to micro detail my entire process that lead up to the question and all of my efforts to resolve the problem. It is easier now but I sometimes see the same over tones with other new guys. Why I don't know I've not been reminded that I may have erred in a response I don't know.

It also helps to know that some of the codgers just have no sense of humor or are just so wry that they NEED a wing man to say "but he means that in the most sincere helpful way and here lemme knock these hard corners off ,there ya go".

I do believe you have highlighted the biggest single problem in trying to help folks, at least it is for me. It results in curt answers, which can be off putting to folks on the receiving end. Folks ask questions and omit the necessary information needed to answer the question. The problem and it's solution is rather simple once the necessary information is given. Until then folks try and guess and come up with a list of all possible solutions to all possible problems. This is neither helpful to the fellow with the question nor good for the karma of the folks trying to be helpful and give answers.

[FISH4BUGS]

"....Elitist is as elitist does....."...(Forrest Gump).....sort of

[Harter66]

That brings me great pride ,even if it is satire,to know I've made the "top half". It's a special moment when the upper crust calls you crust....er.... elite.

[cbrick]

i for one think the mods do a gooooood job

Agreed to a point, about 99% of the time. Been problems with a mod or two but the management must also agree with that since they are no longer mods, in my view a benefit to the entire site.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

agreed to a point, about 99% of the time. Been problems with a mod or two but the management must also agree with that since they are no longer mods, in my view a benefit to the entire site.

Rick

like!

[swheeler]

Remember Starmetal?

OMG do I!:-)

[R3104D3R]

That brings me great pride ,even if it is satire,to know I've made the "top half". It's a special moment when the upper crust calls you crust....er.... elite.

Pie has a bottom crust, too!