IMR 7383 in 30-06

[milkman]

I have a jug of virgin IMR 7383, the only thing I could find that looks like a lot number was RAD78L, that I thought I would try with a 309-160 RNGC boolit, sized to .312, fwfl lube and CCI LR primer. The powder is supposed to be something like 4350 so checked for a max yeller boolit load of H4350 and started about 30% less.
38 grains at 50 yd gave 2050 fps and 2.5" 3 shot group.
I dropped the load to 36g and got a .9" group. 1845,1892,1855 fpsThinking that I might have found THE load, I loaded 5 more. 1885,1816,1962,1861,1807 4 shots in a group and 1 flier about an inch at 4 o'clock. 155 fps spread
I tried another 5 with a mag primer with almost the same group and a 101 fps spread. Went back to LR primers.

Changed to a harder boolit -- 24 BHN
41g - 3 shots in .65" with a 2 shot one hole flier at 4 o'clock 1.1" away. average of 2140fps 48 fps spread.
43g - too dark for the chrono but got a 3 shot group of .75" and a one hole flier, 2 shots at 10 o'clock 1.3" away. (or maybe it was a 3 shot flier at 4 o'clock)

All the above loads left lots of soot and the 36g left some unburned kernels of powder. puzzling over the fliers I noticed that the number of fliers seemed to match the velocity spikes on the chrono, and I know that the scope I was using has lots of paralax at 50 yds and thought maybe that was the problem so I went to 100 yd for the next round .

43g @ 100 yd. 2214,2243,2282,error,2165 - 117 spread - 3shots in 1.25" 2 fliers 1.6" away at 4 o'clock
45g - 2312,2390,2336,err,2383 - 78 spread - 3.6" group, no groupings
47g - err,2510,2456,2511,2453 - 55 spread - 3.1" group , no shot groupings.

On these I kept track of where the shot impacted as well as the velocity and on the 43 g the fliers matched the lowest vel and the error. No help, and seems to let out paralax. These loads shot pretty clean with no unburned powder and no leading. The extreme spread seems to be going down with velocity, but I don't know how much more pressure the boolits will take.

I thought it was interesting that in Modern Reloading II there are some loads listed in 1% powder reductions for 30-06. Using the 4350 data for a 165g bullet, he lists 47g 2440 fps ----7383 and a 163g boolit avg 2482
45g 2370------------------------------------2355
43g 2290------------------------------------2226

Overall, I guess that there are still too many variables for any conclusions. On the last shooting day, I was trying to get some shots off before the rain from hurricane Rita hit here in Arkansas, and it was really gusty, windy and the errors from the chrono didn't help. I was reading the post from davidr about 5010. I have never tried a duplex load, think it might help even out the veolcities? Any other ideas? Those 50 yard groups with all the shots overlapping sure did look purty, now, if I could just make them overlap each other instead of having 2 seperate groups.
milkman

[Maven]

Milkman, I've tried IMR 7383 with CB's in only one rifle and with limited success. I.e., the CB's grouped well enough, but the velocity was greater than I desired. The results I obtained with jacketed bullets in both the .30-06 and .243Win. were outstanding: Better than 1 m.o.a. accuracy; low extreme spreads and standard deviations; little, if any, unburned powder, clean cases. In both instances, I used starter load data for IMR 4350 (standard LR primers) and didn't increase either load by more than 2 grs. 7383 isn't the best choice for CB loads in my experience, but it performs more than admirably with jacketed bullets in certain cartridges. Btw, the stuff isn't as dense as 4350 as you'll soon discover, which means you can't get as much of it into the '06 case as you can 4350.

[milkman]

Maven, I tried the 7383 in 7mm mag with poor results so far, but haven't been where I could chrono the loads to check the SD and spread. You are correct about the density. 47g. 7383 is part way up the 06 shoulder, and high 50's is max for 4350. I may have to stick with the yeller boolits with this stuff, but the price sure appeals to my skinflint nature. milkman

[Maven]

Milkman, I see you also discovered 7383 doesn't quite "fit" into all cartridges. Several weeks ago I thought I'd use it in my 8mm Mau. with 150gr. Speer & Hornady SP's, but couldn't even get 49gr. into the case (100% loading density, but no room to seat the bullet!). I gave up and used 49gr. IMR 4064 instead (an excellent load for the 8 x 57). To repeat what I said earlier, it works at least as well as, and perhaps a tad better than, IMR 4350 in the .243Win. and .30-06 albeit with jacketed bullets.

[Bass Ackward]

1885,1816,1962,1861,1807 4 shots in a group and 1 flier about an inch at 4 o'clock. 155 fps spread
I tried another 5 with a mag primer with almost the same group and a 101 fps spread. Went back to LR primers. Changed to a harder boolit -- 24 BHN
The extreme spread seems to be going down with velocity, but I don't know how much more pressure the boolits will take.



Milkman,

Seems that you are on top of it here. Ignition is your problem. You figured out that you need more pressure to burn it clean. So what else can you do to improve the performance WITHOUT going up in velocity? Hmmmm.

You are sizing a fairly hard bullet and still running wild. I find that when I am running velocity up that the larger the diameter of the bullet, the wilder the flier. How about dropping the diameter a little and cut the powder charge some. Then compress the powder with some plastic shot buffer as long as you don't go below 90% load density? Compression (with cast) in the 30-06 size case class usually makes a powder burn like two powders up an IMR burn rate chart. So if 7383 is burning like 4350, it should improve to about a 4064 rate.

But if you want to know where your bullets fail, you got one choice. Take it on up. I always do this because you will usually find the best accuracy just under the point where leading (wildness) starts. Remember, you actually lead before you see it in the bore. The GC is just removing it until it loads up and can't any more.

[sundog]

Shot high power last Saturday with 50.0/7383 and 168 BTHP. Bullet sits on the powder column w/o compression. Vel = 2395 with ES in teens and SD single digit. Can't get any better. SF prone was a 194-4X. I've turned in several very good prone targets this year including a 199-11X. Here's the thing - case is full so this is about top speed with this bullet. We shoot reduced course (200 yds), because that's all we have. It's a Jim Dandy loading for that. sundog

edit - btw, I'm using LCNM cases (30-06) and Rem 9 1/2 primers.

[milkman]

Bass, gonna be a couple weeks before I can get back to the range, but I will definately try running it faster till I get a case full of powder or the bullet metal gives up. I'm also wondering if putting some pressure on the barrel at the tip of the forearm might make the rifle a little less pressure sensitive. I didn't know that pulling at my thinning hair could be so much fun.

Sundog, Thats some great shooting. I will give it a try with some 165g sp and see how it goes..

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, gonna be a couple weeks before I can get back to the range, but I will definately try running it faster till I get a case full of powder or the bullet metal gives up. I'm also wondering if putting some pressure on the barrel at the tip of the forearm might make the rifle a little less pressure sensitive. I didn't know that pulling at my thinning hair could be so much fun.

Sundog, Thats some great shooting. I will give it a try with some 165g sp and see how it goes..


Milkman,

Tip pressure is a tuner through vibration control. It .... may help grouping, but in the end, you need to get the ES down to more realistic levels. I think the PSB will help you. I think that the smaller diameter will help if you need to go on up in velocity. My best success is usually between .3095 and .310.

Just remember to start low and work up please.

[milkman]

Bass, This is the weatherby with the .311 bore diameter, I think .312 is about as small as I can go, and I had to lap out my push-thru sizer to get there, but I really do appreciate the advise. I have a heavier, 200g bullet on the way and may just start over with it. I did not know about lowering the bullet diameter with rising pressure, I would have thought the opposite. gonna try to remember that one.
milkman

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, This is the weatherby with the .311 bore diameter.

I did not know about lowering the bullet diameter with rising pressure, I would have thought the opposite. milkman

Milkman,

Ooops. Too many posts.

Sometimes it is the opposite.

But I generally find with a bottleneck case that the higher the pressure you want to go, the more .... gentle you want to be with the bullet. Common sense things that you can do to allow the bullet to overcome inertia easier, make a difference. Slower powders, smaller diameter bullets. The general rule for rifles is the faster you want to go the smaller you want to go. This also translates to the harder you want to go, the smaller you want to go.

Not a golden rule by any means.

[felix]

Milkman, always start out with the largest diameter boolit that can be loaded with 0.0005-0.0010 clearance per side. Drop the diameter of the boolit in steps of 0.0005 if at all possible. The more antimony you have in a boolit, the more springback you will get after sizing. Yes, it is easy after a learning curve to adjust the alloy, but you will need various types of junk lead. So, hit the junk yards picking up any kind of lead they have. Hopefully. some lead based babbit will show up. That stuff has heavy duty antimony. Tin based babbit can be used for the tin content. Just get whatever they have. ... felix

[bascom32423]

How close are IMR 7828 and IMR 7383 to each other?

Henry

[carpetman]

How close are 7828 and 7383? There is a difference of 445.

[sundog]

Bascom, not very...., not even close. sundog

[sundog]

C-man, I've suspected it for quite awhile, but I'm purdy sure now. There's something wrong with your brain. Anyone else might have been thinkin' white powder..., and you? There you are out on the cement driveway next to that big ole truck of yern with a stick of chalk cipherin' betwixt two really big numbers. I guess that's what happens when you make past the eighth grade.... sundog

[bascom32423]

Bascom, not very...., not even close. sundog
Which is faster, 7828 or 7383?

Henry

[sundog]

Henry, in the onliest load I use IMR 7383 for it is faster. It's more like a slow 4064, but alot bulkier. sundog

[bascom32423]

Henry, in the onliest load I use IMR 7383 for it is faster. It's more like a slow 4064, but alot bulkier. sundog

Sundog,

Thanks for the reply. Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "onliest load".

Thanks again,
Henry

[wills]

Looks as though sundog speaks Southern.

[sundog]

Wills, yes, my adopted home - difference between Yankee and damn yankee. Beans and cornbread as opposed to baked beans and brown bread (have to admit I like both!)

Henry, "onliest" has the conotation (or is that denotation - never did understand that - some things don't take on a country boy) that it is unique, no others. In my particular case I use this conotation, because I actually attempted other loadings which, in my opinion, were very unsatisfactory. So, with the supply on hand and with the type of shooting I do it is reserved for just NRA high power in 30-06, because is works there and nowhere else (for me). 7383 is reserved for exactly one thing - loading for high power with jacketed bullets. That load is SO good, I'm not going to waste any for excursions. sundog

Is 'onliest' not a word?

[Jumptrap]

How close are IMR 7828 and IMR 7383 to each other?

Henry

Allow me to let you in on a well kept secret.

I know 7828 is expensive, but it is one of the finest cast bullet powders you'll ever use. It is slow but not coma s l o w like the 50 bmg and 20 mm stuff. It burns well, and figuratively, gives the bullet a gentle start. It makes for a full case application in most instances but delivers high velocity for cast bullets and keeps leading at a minimum. There are many who still adhere to the ancient fast powder regimen, but I quit them after I discovered the magic of slow powders. I have never had 4831 perform as well as 7828 and find 4350 a bit fast for this work. Sounds silly, I know. But, spring for a can of 7828 and see for yourself. I like the cheap surp powders, just haven't found one in the burn rate of 7828 yet.

[Jumptrap]

Wills, yes, my adopted home - difference between Yankee and damn yankee. Beans and cornbread as opposed to baked beans and brown bread (have to admit I like both!)

Henry, "onliest" has the conotation (or is that denotation - never did understand that - some things don't take on a country boy) that it is unique, no others. In my particular case I use this conotation, because I actually attempted other loadings which, in my opinion, were very unsatisfactory. So, with the supply on hand and with the type of shooting I do it is reserved for just NRA high power in 30-06, because is works there and nowhere else (for me). 7383 is reserved for exactly one thing - loading for high power with jacketed bullets. That load is SO good, I'm not going to waste any for excursions. sundog

Is 'onliest' not a word?

What the hell is brown bread? Seems to me like there is something else folks chow down on up east that I never heard of before..but I can't remember it now. it was some kind of peasant food too (like cornbread is) but it twern't bread, just a dish of something.

[sundog]

Wills, accepted as a compliment, Sir. sundog

[bascom32423]

Allow me to let you in on a well kept secret.

...But, spring for a can of 7828 and see for yourself. I like the cheap surp powders, just haven't found one in the burn rate of 7828 yet.


Thanks for the tip, Jumptrap. I have a pound on order.

Henry

[sundog]

Jump, SCRAPPLE. There's the kind made in a loaf, sliced, and fried - that's the one I like. And then there's another made like mush - don't like that. One is Philadelphia style and the other is ??? [don't remember], and don't know which is which. Corm meal, some kind of pork pieces or sausage, some spices. My mother used to make once in awhile when I was a kid. I remember her putting it in bread loaf pans, cooling it, then slicing and frying it. Mmmmm, good. Haven't had it in years, and don't even know if I could make it.

Ah, brown bread. Goes with Boston Baked Beans, and my grandma was the world's finest bean cooker. She'd make a batch and the crock would be on the stove for a few days until it was all gone. Brown bread is just that, brown, and very rich. Don't have a clue how to make it, but it goes with Boston Baked Beans like white goes with rice. sundog

[Scrounger]

Sundog, Brown Bread seems to be Irish in origin, which is no surprise if the bread is popular in Boston. Here is a traditional receipe from Ireland: no exotic ingredients to deal with but you'll have to convert the metric measurements to our old English system.

Traditional Brown Bread
Ingredients
600 grams of brown wholemeal flour
180 grams of plain (white) flour
2 teaspoons of baking soda
1 teaspoon of salt
1 tablespoon of soft brown sugar
2 tablespoons of olive oil
0,6 litre of buttermilk (sour milk)


Method
Sieve the plain flour and baking soda in to a bowl.
Add the wholemeal flour, salt and brown sugar and mix well.
Add the olive oil and buttermilk and mix well for 2 minutes with a wooden spoon.
Lightly oil a 1kg loaf tin. Add the mixture. Put in a preheated oven at exactly 180 C.

[Jumptrap]

Jump, SCRAPPLE. There's the kind made in a loaf, sliced, and fried - that's the one I like. And then there's another made like mush - don't like that. One is Philadelphia style and the other is ??? [don't remember], and don't know which is which. Corm meal, some kind of pork pieces or sausage, some spices. My mother used to make once in awhile when I was a kid. I remember her putting it in bread loaf pans, cooling it, then slicing and frying it. Mmmmm, good. Haven't had it in years, and don't even know if I could make it.

Ah, brown bread. Goes with Boston Baked Beans, and my grandma was the world's finest bean cooker. She'd make a batch and the crock would be on the stove for a few days until it was all gone. Brown bread is just that, brown, and very rich. Don't have a clue how to make it, but it goes with Boston Baked Beans like white goes with rice. sundog


Sundoggy,

If you can come up with a recipe...maybe from somebody in your family, I'd give that a whirl and see if I could stir some up. Old folks had stuff kept in their heads and they also had a 'touch' when it came ti cookin'. Shame most of it goes to the grave with them. Scrapple..hmm, don't ring a bell, but I'd like to eat it. i have pal up east in vermont...god bless his soul...he eats maple syrup on grapefruit..now I tried that and damned near puked. Folks in these parts was raised on hog lard....everything is fried in it. Strangers almost gag at the very thought of it. But now, you tell me, if your poor and you just got finished frying a couple pounds of bacon...doesn't it make sense to fry your eggs in that hot grease? OH NO.....use butter! hell boy, the cream got sold and the bluejohn (skim milk) got fed to the hogs..they weren't no butter to eat. Besides that, bacon grease didn't need a refrigerator or ice box to keep. If it got cooked, it got cooked with bacon grease....or lard, which was rendered when you butchered a hog. Folks didn't eat beef because they couldn't keep it. Pork could be smoked or salted down, the sausage got canned....they'd take the sausage and just cook it it enough to brown it a bit...not done and then, they'd stack that sausage in little 2 pound lard buckets and pour melted grease over it. That grease would cool and set up and seal the sausage. The buckets were then turned upside down in the smokehouse so the mice couldn't get to it and that is how they kept it. Poor folks in these hills had poor ways..but they et good.

[C1PNR]

Sundog, Brown Bread seems to be Irish in origin, which is no surprise if the bread is popular in Boston. Here is a traditional receipe from Ireland: no exotic ingredients to deal with but you'll have to convert the metric measurements to our old English system.

Traditional Brown Bread
Ingredients
600 grams of brown wholemeal flour
180 grams of plain (white) flour
2 teaspoons of baking soda
1 teaspoon of salt
1 tablespoon of soft brown sugar
2 tablespoons of olive oil
0,6 litre of buttermilk (sour milk)


Method
Sieve the plain flour and baking soda in to a bowl.
Add the wholemeal flour, salt and brown sugar and mix well.
Add the olive oil and buttermilk and mix well for 2 minutes with a wooden spoon.
Lightly oil a 1kg loaf tin. Add the mixture. Put in a preheated oven at exactly 180 C.
Well, heck, converting aint really no big deal, BUT, how long does this thing stay in the oven??

I know, I know, until it's done! But how LONG a time does it take?

I've made round loaf Civil War Whole Wheat Bread (very similar) and I'm willing to try this Boston stuff, just need a little hint as to baking time!

This type bread with a hearty stew is just too good for rich folk. We got to keep it a secret!

[sundog]

Don't know about oven time. The kind of brown bread I like is done in soup cans sealed on both ends with foil and placed on a rack in a steam bath for about 3 hours. There's different ways of making it, but I like the steamed kind best. Just do a web search for brown bread recipes - plenty of them out there. Mmmmmm.... sundog

[Bob S]

[QUOTE=The kind of brown bread I like is done in soup cans sealed on both ends with foil and placed on a rack in a steam bath for about 3 hours .... sundog[/QUOTE]

Yup, that's sounds like any Saturday night in New England circa 1960. :-)

Resp'y, Bob S.