Frustrating Session With NOE 360-155 WC Mold

[Alan in Vermont]

If had hair enough to get a grip on I wold have tried pulling it out today.

Second session with my NOE 360 155gr WC 2-cavity mold. I heat cycled it a couple times before I used it the first time, then heated and let it cool as I was casting a couple times as well. It cast OK, not outstanding, that first session, showing a tendency to not fill out real well. Alloy that time was certified 96.5 Pb/3.5 Sn.

I the pot today and refilled it with what has been a pretty good casting alloy of sb 1.49, sn 1.23, bi 2.34, pb 91.94, cu .27, fe .80. Tht alloy likes to be run hot, at 750° it works flawlessly in several Lee molds in 38, 40, and 45 calibers. I could not get it to cast for beans today.

That NOE mold has six bands, the end and two middle bands appear to be the same width with the first and fifth bands being somewhat narrower. Those two narrow bands would not fill out. I ran melt temperature from just over 700° to 775°, cast fast to where the boolits were frosted, slowed down, pressure cast, poured right down the throat and ran the metal down the taper of the sprue holes. ZIP, zilch, nada.


Stars & moon not properly aligned? This metal fills two Lee SWC designs, 105 & 140 gr., both of which have real narrow bands and gives me just about no rejects after the first couple warming fills. I'm thinking about mixing a pot load with extra tin to see if that helps any.


ARGH!!

[mattw]

Sounds to me like the mould block is not hot enough. I just bought my first 3 NOE moulds and have been casting with Lyman/Ideal, Saeco, RCBS and Lee for years. I could not make a good bullet until the blocks where way hotter than i would have run other.

Then... Great Bullets!

[aharlow]

Little extra Tin can't hurt and it might help out getting a good mold fill-out with all those driving bands on a WC. Mold temp is also key and i would make sure it is also nice and hot and that it stays that way between cast. Make sure mold is cleaned real well also with some Brake cleaner to make sure all oils, grease, and dirt are out of the mold. If its a brand new mold makes sure you also read the insert on how to prep your mold before you start to cast with it. Hopefully its just getting broken in and it should be running good soon.

[waco]

Mold blocks not up to temp? Any oil/grease in the cavities?

[BruMatt]

I have several NOE molds. They are great but must be run much hotter than the Lee molds. I turn them over on the hot plate before using an d run the pot at 800 degrees. Once dialed in they drop a nice bullet. Good luck.

[edctexas]

Several of my NOE molds want to be around 480-500 degrees! While the probe used to measure that might be off, this gives 5-7 seconds sprue solidifying and good looking boolits.

Ed C

[shoot-n-lead]

Run that mold hotter...NOE molds require more heat than any molds that I have ever used.

I was actually thinking that mine were the exception...maybe not.

[TXGunNut]

Yes, NOE moulds like to run fast & hot in my experience. Give them another scrubbing in hot soapy water and it won't hurt to do a few more heat cycles on a hot plate. I had a stubborn NOE mould once, wouldn't drop a decent boolit until the third session. After that it dropped boolits like rain and the cull rate was always low.

[Alan in Vermont]

I had another session at the casting bench this morning. Turned the pot up to 775°+ and preheated the mold by resting it on the layer of sawdust residue on top of the melt. First few casts took about forever to solidify. They were terribly frosted but flawless otherwise.

I was having a hard time keeping the mold hot enough to cast like those first few though. I counted cadence on several cycles, 10-14 seconds, the 14 second ones are caused by a boolit not dropping free and needing help with a mallet. It probably wasn't much over 50° in the casting shed so that may have been part of the problem keeping the mold hot. I could bring the ambient temp. up as much as I want but this is a small shed and the heater blasts hot air directly on me when it runs which gets quite uncomfortable in a hurry.

I haven't changed anything with the alloy. I'm going to run one more session and try to get mold temps up a little more. Right now I'm getting 70-80% visual keepers and a quick scale check of some of those are weighing within 1 grain total variation, averaging 153.4 grs.

There is what I take to be light frosting on the sides and edges of the narrower bands and occasionally on the wide ones as well. The affected bands look they they have rounded edges but if you look at the affected area from the side, against a white background, (so that you are sighting through the lube groove) the bands are actually fully filled out and square shouldered. It takes a long time to inspect when you have to roll the boolit in your fingers for each of several suspected flaws.


I bought this mold in 2-cavity, I had no idea how heavy the alum. blocks were going to be and I can't handle heavy molds with my left hand now. 6-hole Lee molds I can mange for quite long sessions but looking at the pics it looked like NOE molds were going to be heavier than they are. I had also forgetten just how tedious it is to cast large numbers of boolits in a 2-cavity mold. My goal was to get several thousand WCs cast this winter so I could embarass myself at some PPC matches this summer. I'm not sure that is going to happen now unless I upgrade to a 4-5 cavity.

[btroj]

Not melt temp, mould temp. Get the mould hot and keep it that way. You really need a hotplate or something like that.

[TXGunNut]

Not melt temp, mould temp. Get the mould hot and keep it that way. You really need a hotplate or something like that.

Agreed, I beat my head against that wall for longer than a should have.[smilie=b: Never could find one in my local Wal-Mart but when they finally put one on the shelf it became one of my favorite pieces of casting equipment. Some moulds seem to do OK without one, a few moulds are nearly useless without one.

[gwpercle]

In South Louisiana we would bring that mould to the nearest Catholic Priest and have him perform his best Exorcism Rite. If that doesn't clear things up, then you go to the local Voodoo Priestess, and have her cast out the demon's and instill good spirits in it.
Now, if after all this, it still refuses to cast well, sell it to somebody you don't really like (brother in law) and let him have to put up with the cursed thing!
Gary

[Alan in Vermont]

Not melt temp, mould temp. Get the mould hot and keep it that way. You really need a hotplate or something like that.

I fail to see how it is possible to use a hotplate to keep a mold hotter than it can be maintained by casting as fast as possible with hot alloy. It's already taking 8-10 seconds for the sprue to freeze. The first casts today were with the mold terribly hot, to where it was 20-30 seconds before the sprue set up and I waited about that long again to be sure the boolits had cooled enough to be solid. After that I cast with 775°+ metal (the pot thermostat was kicking in at that temp) and the mold cooled down, cutting sprue time into the 8-10 second range. If I try to get the mold any hotter I would have to reheat it after every emptying and wait a minute or more for it to cool enough to open after filling it.

[btroj]

Ok, so you had it hot to start with. After that it is the cadence that keeps it hot. Clean off burrs or whatever is causing bullets to hang up so they drop easily. Drop, close mould, refill. Don't allow time for excessive cooling.
My NOE moulds all seemed to cast better the second or third session. Not sure why.

Keep on trying, sometimes it is a matter of figuring what the mould wants. I would drop melt temp back down, it just doesn't need to be that hot. 725 is good for me.

[winelover]

Rapid Heat Loss, the bane of two cavity aluminum molds. Not enough mass to maintain heat.

I'm having the same type of issues with a recently purchased 30 cal NOE 150 SP 2 cavity. Not a fan of aluminum molds anyways. Learned on RCBS iron molds, over 40 years ago. Much easier to keep iron or brass at the ideal casting temperature. Will never purchase less than three cavities in aluminum, again. Need to work more with this mold, or it's a short drive from here to Louisiana to find a priest or voodoo priestess.

Winelover

[cbrick]

Rapid Heat Loss, the bane of two cavity aluminum molds. Not enough mass to maintain heat. winelover


^^^^^ Yep.

The mold will cast well but it's a bit of a different animal and a learning curve. You don't need or want 775 pot temps, will simply slow down the casting by needing to wait so long to cool it down. Will also be tough on the tin in your alloy when casting at 750 or higher, 700-725 is plenty of heat to keep the mold at proper casting temp once properly heated. From there it's simply a learning curve to maintain that mold temp using a two cav aluminum mold.

Rick

[Alan in Vermont]

I've been taking a break from casting for the past ten days or so. At first it was because it was bitterly cold & windy here, hard to keep the casting shed comfortable. Then I've been under the weather for most of the past week. Finally tried it again today, it was warm enough to get the shed heated up adequately.

I added a little tin to the mix, ending up with 2.03% Sn, 2.33% Sb, 95.20 Pb with several very small amounts of Fe, Bi (I think that's right for Bismuth) and Cu.

For a bit I ran two molds, one the NOE 311-165-RD, the other this Wadcutter from Hell.

Now I understand all too well that every mold is unique unto itself but,,,,,,. Here's two molds from the same maker, I have to assume they are made of the same material. There is only 15 grs difference in the actual weights of the boolits so virtually the same amount of metal going into each mold on each casting cycle.

The 165 dropped good boolits after the first cast and only around 10% rejects for the session.

I finally had to stop casting with both molds when the WC from H was showing signs of getting too cool (judging from fillout). Time for the sprue to cool didn't seem to be decreasing.

Alloy temp was 725-750° the whole time.

At this point I'm sorting into two piles, one that is "good", one that is "not so good" but will do for practice at 7 & 15 yds.

I have also cast with the other NOE mold I have, 311008. It just flat spits out boolits with almost no rejects. GW I'm thinking you might be right about the exorcism/voodoo approach.

[JWFilips]

What did Al tell you in the little paper sheet that came with the mould? He made it... he knows it. Read it.... It may help.
He is not afraid of "Carbon" OH My, Now I'm in trouble here ( works every time) ask the maker!

[cbrick]

I finally had to stop casting with both molds when the WC from H was showing signs of getting too cool (judging from fillout). Time for the sprue to cool didn't seem to be decreasing.

Alloy temp was 725-750° the whole time.

At this point I'm sorting into two piles, one that is "good", one that is "not so good" but will do for practice at 7 & 15 yds.

Let's start at the beginning. Your mold from H is a 155 gr two cavity aluminum. First, don't look at it as pouring lead into the mold, look at it as pouring HEAT into the mold. Two 155 gr bullets is very little heat. Aluminum looses heat VERY quickly and your not pouring much heat to begin with and there is very little aluminum to hold that heat. Next, that wonderful thick sprue plate on Al's molds is steel, steel will retain heat much better/longer than will a small aluminum mold so the sprue will harden (freeze) later than the mold and all the while the mold is cooling.

Next, try casting with just one mold, the mold from H. Cast at a rhythm that gives you good bullets. It really is nothing more than a learning curve with this mold.

Do not sort bullets while your casting because your very small aluminum mold that you didn't pour much heat into is cooling off. Rapidly.

Your pot temp is now fine and is around 300 degrees hotter than a proper mold casting temp. 300 degrees is more than enough to keep the mold at a good casting temp with the right rhythm.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[Alan in Vermont]

I have read the little paper and I have followed what was writ thereon. Smoked it too, no change.

Cbrick, I have tried casting with just this one mold, no change.

As far as "Aluminum looses heat VERY quickly and your not pouring much heat to begin with and there is very little aluminum to hold that heat" I'm inclined to think that there is too much aluminum, hence a lot of exterior surface to radiate the heat away. To support that premise I offer that 6-hole Lee molds have tiny mold blocks and can tend to overheating.

What stumps me is that the 165 gr mold is just about perfect and it's what, 10% more metal going in. Or worse yet the 311008, which is dropping at 124 gr comes up to, and maintains temperature just fine, even less heat input with that one.

Nowhere have I implied that I am sorting boolits while I'm casting

I dug out a 400° Tempilstik and the mold is hot enough to melt that so the mold is at least that hot.

I have cast with a lot of molds and this one is being a real bahstud. I have never had one that I couldn't get a decent percentage of good boolits out of prior to this little jewel. I'm sure it will come into it if I keep playing with variables but right now this is one frustrating little piece of shiny metal.

[cbrick]

I've got a rather new NOE 4 cav 165 gr bullet mold that I have come to call Goldie Locks. I can cast good bullets with it but it's pretty fussy about what it wants. Not too cool, not too hot. It likes it just right, just way IT likes it. Once I get the right rhythm going both the mold and me are happy campers.

Rick

[upnorthwis]

I know just what you're talking about with that mold. I have a two cavity .25 ca. 116 gr. that after three casting sessions I couldn't get a good boolit. Tried everything. This morning the mold went in the milling machine where I removed a substantial amount of material. Quarter on an inch off the bottom alone. Will try it this weekend.

[1johnlb]

One of the best parts about buying NOE moulds is the fact that Al stands behind his product with service after the sale. If anyone with a original NOE has a problem with their mold, the fix is as simple as a email / phone call and shipping it to Al. He's a standup gent, just talk to him.

[happy7]

Some molds are finicky. I believe these are mostly from venting issues. Some are easy. But regardless, the longer you cast with it, the better it will fill out. Cut the sprue as soon as you can without smearing the mold. If, after you cut, the bullets still look liquidy, you cut too soon.

About frosting. In my opinion, the best bullets are pretty well frosted. A glossy bullet can look good, but will never be as crisp as a frosted one. You can take frosting to an extreme. I am not talking about that. But it needs to be frosted. When the mold is not really hot enough, the bullets will frost only in certain places and a partially frosted bullet is a worse bullet than an unfrosted one or a frosted one. This can almost always be fixed by upping the mold temp till the whole bullet is frosted.

Melt temp does matter, but not much. True, an alloy of pure lead needs to be hotter than a WW alloy. While that is true, practically speaking, alloy temp doesn't matter all that much. A really experienced caster can cast basically the same bullets from an alloy at 650 degrees as from an alloy of 750 degrees. Yes, sprues will take longer to cool, etc, but if you water cool the sprue plate that doesn't make much difference. What i am trying to say, is that if you are looking for the answer to fill out in alloy temperature, you are going to get frustrated.

What will give better fillout is:

A hot mold. As hot as you can go without smearing.
A well broken in mold. Ok, yes a well cleaned mold can give good bullets from the first cast, but some just don't want to the first couple casting sessions. At least that is my experience.
In bottom pour, a bigger stream. A dribble can make for poorer fillout. Alternately, too big a flow can cause poor fillout in the base of the bullet.
In bottom pour, a longer drop (within reason, about an inch max)
Not hitting with sprue plate with the melt. This takes some practice, but allows for excellent venting through the sprue hole. This can be difficult if the sprue holes are undersize.

[winelover]

I did some casting, yesterday. with my NOE "problem child" 150 SP. (see post # 16) Same alloy, same temperature setting as before, but I went from 60% rejects to less than 10% rejects. What I did different was pour a big enough sprue puddle that half again as much ran down the side of the mold. Cbrick would call that pouring heat.[smilie=1:


Winelover

[rintinglen]

Rick, 300 degrees won't even melt tin babbit, much less lead. That mold needs to run near 400 degrees with the lead at at least 700 degrees to get good boolits. Others have different experiences, but I run my melt hot--775 +--and pour LARGE sprues in my aluminum 2 cavity molds, regardless of maker. I have an RG2 88 grain HP for my 380's that will only give good boolits if cast this way.
I too have my NOE from hell, which in my case is a 4 cavity 311-407. But the other 9 or so range from outstandingly great to merely really good, so I'll chalk that one up to poor boolit design.

[cbrick]

Rick, 300 degrees won't even melt tin babbit, much less lead. That mold needs to run near 400 degrees with the lead at at least 700 degrees to get good boolits. Others have different experiences, but I run my melt hot--775 +--

Sounds very much like you didn't read my post. I said melt temp of 700 is 300 degrees higher than a good casting mold temp. Now if you subtract 300 degrees from 700 degrees you arrive at a proper mold temp of around 400 degrees (approx.). That 300 degrees over mold temp is easily enough to keep your mold at a good casting temp. I don't know what your talking about melting Babbitt at 300 degrees.

Folks can run their pots at any temp that suits them. My normal pot temp is 700, with small bullets and HP's at about 725. The reason being that tin oxidizes far faster past about 750 and also begins loosing it's ability to do what you put it in the alloy for, reduce the surface tension of the alloy going into the mold when hotter than 750.

Rick

[Alan in Vermont]

I contacted Al at NOE and he wants me to send this mold back so they can have a look at it. It only took a couple hours to get a reply from him, pretty quick response, impressive as hell!!

[EDK]

There may be someone somewhere with a legitimate complaint about Swede and NOE BUT I sure haven't heard about it. First class service on first class products.

We have some great vendors here and NOE is up at the top of the list.

[Alan in Vermont]

The WC from H is all packed and ready to go back to NOE. Just for something to do I turned on the heater in the shed, switched on the pot and had at it with that 311008 NOE mold that has been such a pleasure to work with. Same metal I used last in the WC from H, same temp setting on the pot, only difference was the mold. Granted this one has two wide bands and two grooves so it probably should be easier to cast with. In a little over an hour I had 5 3/4 lbs of those cute little boolits at right around 124 grs each. That is 324 raw boolits,,, I sorted out 20 bad ones, keeping 304 to put through the Star. It is pretty comforting to know that I can still cast decent boolits, at a fair pace, after all. I was getting a little concerned there.

[trapper9260]

For what it is worth that ,when I cast with 2 molds .I will put the molds on a hotplate when I melt my alloy to get it up to temp and then after I will cast with one.What I do is keep the alloy in the mold and put it on the hotplate and cast with the other one and then change and remove the boolit and cast it and then keep the change like I stated and then the mold stay where you like of not lost of heat.I have done it with brass and alum. molds, iron I did not have as much problems with.just to give some one a idea.and like is stated some molds have there own way to be used.

[1Shirt]

Start hot, and stay hot, and once you have a bit of frost and a rhythm you should be fine.
1Shirt!