Anyone shoot 45-70 boolits w/o gc?

[.429]

If so, what alloy, velocity, and boolit weight? I'm about to order a new mold and can't decide if I should order the gc or pb version. Thanks for any and all input

[44man]

The GC will allow a softer alloy that is good for hunting. PB needs to be harder for fast smokeless.
A BP load or a smokeless close to BP can use 1 to 20 tin-lead.
I shoot a 1 to 20 PB with 3031 very well. Just use a slower powder.
45-70 is forgiving and like the 30-30, etc, slow powders work better instead of Unique and 4227.
I have grown to hate the unobtainium GC's.
Just get the PB and stay away from pistol and shotgun powders. I shot a 500 gr Rapine Gov't boolit, 1 to 20 with 3031, (can't remember how much) out of a friends Trapdoor to point of aim with small groups. Boolit is .460", no leading at all. He took many deer before he moved to NC.
We stopped using 4198, stuff kicked the snot out of us. Made my cheek black and blue.

[pworley1]

You don't have to use a gas check just because you have a gas check mold. I use both, plain base in the trapdoors and sharps, gas checked in the modern Winchesters and handi rifle. If you are only going to only get one mold, get the one that best matches the rifle you are going to use.

[.429]

I was considering using i4198 and ww alloy just because that's what I have on hand. Picking up some 3031 isn't a problem. I can mix up some lyman #2 pretty easily if they need it. I've come to loathe gas checks myself.

[.429]

I was fooling with some gc's just last night on some 30cal boolits. They won't crimp on good. I'd love to quit using them in anymore molds I buy

[stubert]

You will have alot softer recoil with 3031 than 4198.

[Toymaker]

I'd found a commercial boat tail .459 405 grain FN bullet for my rolling block, but it was extremely hard and left slivers of lead at the beginning of the rifling. The lube looked like NRA lube. In spite of that it shot very well with 70 grains Goex FFg, 23.5 grains IMR 4759 and 23 grains 5744. A 500 grain Hoch FN with a flat base, Darr's lube, BHN 10 to 14, also shot very well with the same powders, but recoil would become an issue in the Summer toward the end of a 40 round course of fire. There were no lead slivers. Recently tested bullets from a Lyman 457193 mold, 20:1, Darr's, SPG and Ben's Red lubes, with the above loads. In two tests to date the SPG out-performed Darr's and Ben's Red with the black powder loads and Ben's Red out-performed Darr's and SPG with the smokeless loads. 5-shot group sizes at 100 yards were 1 to 1 1/2 inches. The SPG/Goex groups were actually smaller at 220 yards, something which I'm still trying to figure out and waiting for another opportunity to do the test again.

[waco]

I am trying to make the same decision as you .429
I think a 400-420 PB is the ticket.

[cajun shooter]

If you are shooting most all 45-70 loads with smokeless, then a GC is not needed. You can get by if using at least a #2 alloy for your bullets.
If shooting BP loads then a good 20-1 alloy is called for as it is the standard for such loads. You may shoot GC bullets without the GC if your loads are on the lower end of those listed.
I've always felt that there is a place for GC bullets if one only has lead to shoot but if the bad J bullets are available then use them. I say this as I've grown out of the "let's see how fast we can make this thing go crowd". Later David

[.429]

I like what I'm hearing!

[44man]

Either alloy will work, just air cool. No need for real hard at all. You are free unlike my revolver in 45-70. My rifle can shoot pure if I want.
The revolver was a real chore with about 3/4" boolit jump to cone and slow powders that would not burn in 10". Found 4759 works and it should work fine in a rifle too. Easy recoil like 3031. 4198 in the revolver was also harsh with pressure excursions and stuck brass with some reaching 1800 fps.

[.429]

Ok, so does this sound do-able? 350gr NOE RD, air cooled ww, 3031, plain base, tumble lube (45/45/10), 1600-1700fps? What do y'all think?

[waco]

I could be wrong but 1600 to 1700 ft./s sounds a little fast for tumble Lube to me.
I'm sure someone else will chime in.

[ballistim]

I have a NOE mold with 1 PB & 1 GC, HP & blank pins & have shot all 3, favorite right now is Lee 457-405-F single cavity that I bought used that is PB & drops at .459 from mold & sized to .458. I'm using a duplex load with surplus powder using a variation on a load posted by 9.3x62AL years ago, he estimated load was approx. 1,300FPS so around black powder velocity & I use an alloy at 14BHN so still should be soft enough to hunt with, haven't had the chance yet, carried my Guide Gun loaded with it but nothing crossed my path, maybe next year.

[texassako]

I don't see a need for a gas check in .45-70 unless you are going to be using some pretty fast loads. My smokeless loads mostly replicate BP speeds or maybe a bit faster with a 365 gr bullet I have been working with. I have had good luck with 4227 with that one, but use slower powders(and BP) with heavier bullets. They are cast from wheel weights with a bit of tin and TAC1 lube with no leading or issues.

[country gent]

I shoot plain based bullets in 45-70 and 45-90. My loads are either goex or old ensford 2 f black powder with a ,060 napa ruber fiber wad and the bullet seated tight to this. My bullets are 1) lyman 510 grn round nose govt model 2) lyman postell 535 grn 3) brooks 500 grn Paper Patched bore rider all are cast from 20-1 alloy no gas checks ( not allowed in BPCR competition). Lybe is either SPG or emmerts improved. Bullets are air cooled. I get very little leading at around 1250 fps. When I do my part rams ring and swing everytime at 500 yds. Experiment with your loads and see what your rifle likes.

[.429]

I could be wrong but 1600 to 1700 ft./s sounds a little fast for tumble Lube to me.
I'm sure someone else will chime in.

I have shot .223 as fast as 2300fps out of my AR and my bolt action using TL (45/45/10) with no leading. I usually shoot them a little slower than that, but no leading either way. I tumble lube everything with no leading. However, this I my first 45-70, and a different animal.

[aspangler]

I TL my Lee 457-405rf with no leading. Going to a softer alloy this year. 50/50 didn't open up at 1450 fps for me. I think I'll slow it down and go to 30-1 this year. Maybe even 40-1.

[44man]

Ok, so does this sound do-able? 350gr NOE RD, air cooled ww, 3031, plain base, tumble lube (45/45/10), 1600-1700fps? What do y'all think?
I just do not like TL even with Lee TL boolits. Some do and get decent results but I never did. TL might not lead the gun but my lube tests for years has shown a vast difference in accuracy between lubes. I have drawers full of lubes and some will never go on a boolit again.
You must test. Dang it, I have taken 3" groups at 50 to one ragged hole with just a lube change.
Never follow a crowd, there might be a cliff at the end of the road. The most important thing I have ever said is do the work, be your own man. You do not have to do like me either, I only tell what worked for me. Test the TL and move on, never get stuck at one place with one thing. Discover with an open mind. Do not chase loads if the lube is the problem. It is that important.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I know I am going to get slammed for this, but I haven't used rifle powder in my two 45-70's in years. I have 5 different molds for them and have been using Unique for a long time, no filler. My favorite boolit is the lee 500 gr. the one that looks like a spire point some what. Ten and eleven grains of unique behind that boolit has won the long range cowboy buffalo shoot a number of times for me. That 500 grain PB boolit is running just about 1000 FPS (Chronographed) out of my Pedersoli RB and you can see the boolit for quite a ways to the target while looking through a spotting scope from behind the shooter. It does not kick at all, more like a push against the shoulder. I size all my rifle boolits with a #45 Lyman sizer lubrer and using home made lube. My lube consists of Wiping wax, gasoline valve grease, alox and wheel bearing grease. Gasoline valve grease is a wax base grease used on valves used on really big gasoline and diesel fuel storage tanks, 500,000 gallon and larger up to 1,000,000 gallon.

Correction! I checked my Chrony records and fps was 1000 + or - a few feet.

[Duckdog]

I have never used a gas check with a 45/70 and never will. Just a good old PB boolit. I tumble lube everything ad have never had a ioda of leading in anything, which is upward of 30 calibers.

I can say I am pushing a 30-06, 170 gr boolit at 2150 FPS, (chronograhed), and have never had a stitch of leading with Lee Liquid Alox.

I generally use XMP5744 in the 45/70, but have touched off plenty of Unique with it as well, with excellent results as well.

[dh2]

My hunting load for my Marlin 45-70 is IMR4198 pushing a NOE.460-405gr HP cast from SOWW with 1.5% tin added sizing it .459 is preforming very well, no leading so far it has went through load work up and sighting my rifle and hunting . Yes there is some recoil , I started out with a gas check and went to the plain base side of the mold. My trap door Springfield is using a Lee 405 Gr hallow base boolit from the same alloy, needless to say has never used a gas check.

[.429]

My hunting load for my Marlin 45-70 is IMR4198 pushing a NOE.460-405gr HP cast from SOWW with 1.5% tin added sizing it .459 is preforming very well, no leading so far it has went through load work up and sighting my rifle and hunting . Yes there is some recoil , I started out with a gas check and went to the plain base side of the mold. My trap door Springfield is using a Lee 405 Gr hallow base boolit from the same alloy, needless to say has never used a gas check.

How fast are you pushing 'em?

[murf205]

.429 I am shooting a 26" Marlin Cowboy and my boolit is a plain base 405gr Accurate Mold with 4759 and a loft of Dacron on top. I can't recall the charge weight but it chrono's in the 1600's with no leading. I have shot it @ 1990 fps with IMR4895 and no leading at all. Lube is Carnuba Red sized to .429. This loads shoots into 1" @ 75 yds. When I ordered my mold I had Tom make a 4 cavity-2 w/gc's and 2 w/out. I am lucky I guess because they both shoot to the same POI. BTW, he makes a beautiful mold.
Murf

[.429]

.429 I am shooting a 26" Marlin Cowboy and my boolit is a plain base 405gr Accurate Mold with 4759 and a loft of Dacron on top. I can't recall the charge weight but it chrono's in the 1600's with no leading. I have shot it @ 1990 fps with IMR4895 and no leading at all. Lube is Carnuba Red sized to .429. This loads shoots into 1" @ 75 yds. When I ordered my mold I had Tom make a 4 cavity-2 w/gc's and 2 w/out. I am lucky I guess because they both shoot to the same POI. BTW, he makes a beautiful mold.
Murf

Good info, thanks!

[WHITETAIL]

I am also shooting a Cowboy in 45-70!
What I do is shooot a PB 405 boolit with a wax gasscheck.
The wax GC is made out of a milk carton side.
I use ***** punch I bought from Midway.
They cost nothing to make and to me I like the results.:Fire:

[.429]

I am also shooting a Cowboy in 45-70!
What I do is shooot a PB 405 boolit with a wax gasscheck.
The wax GC is made out of a milk carton side.
I use ***** punch I bought from Midway.
They cost nothing to make and to me I like the results.:Fire:

I've never heard of a wax gc. What are the advantages of using it vs when you shoot it as is?

[largom]

I just do not like TL even with Lee TL boolits. Some do and get decent results but I never did. TL might not lead the gun but my lube tests for years has shown a vast difference in accuracy between lubes. I have drawers full of lubes and some will never go on a boolit again.
You must test. Dang it, I have taken 3" groups at 50 to one ragged hole with just a lube change.
Never follow a crowd, there might be a cliff at the end of the road. The most important thing I have ever said is do the work, be your own man. You do not have to do like me either, I only tell what worked for me. Test the TL and move on, never get stuck at one place with one thing. Discover with an open mind. Do not chase loads if the lube is the problem. It is that important.

Truer words were never spoken! This applies to all aspects of casting and handloading. What works for one person and their gun may not work for you and your gun.

Larry

[Vulcan Bob]

I'm using the Lee 457-405 rnfp using wheel weight alloy with 2% tin, SPG lube, drops at 412gr in my Marlin 1895 Cowboy with good results. The only thing I don't like about it is its shallow grease grooves. I use AA-5744 with SPG lube at around 1,300 fps and get very light leading a few inch's from the end of the barrel, not enough lube methinks.

[TXGunNut]

I could be wrong but 1600 to 1700 ft./s sounds a little fast for tumble Lube to me.
I'm sure someone else will chime in.


Sounds like it but it works just fine for me in my Guide Gun for these velocities and a bit more. I use the GC version of the RD 460-350 for those velocities but a PB version may work, the PB version wasn't available when I bought my mould from RD.
What are your plans for the 45-70, 429? The versatile 45-70 can be anything from a Trapdoor lobbing boolits at BP velocities to a more robust rifle firing rounds that approach the performance of the 458 Winchester, different boolits help accomplish that versatility.

[bruce381]

"Gasoline valve grease"

or called Plug valve Lube or grease thick stuff, the Gas version is made with I think seed oils to be less soluble in gasoline.