questions about long range muzzleloader competition

[johnson1942]

is their limits on the weight of the rifle? is only a single non set trigger allowed. is the nipple allowed only for number 11 primer caps? is their limitations on length of the barrel, shortnes of it and total length for longer than 36 inches? thanks before hand

[koger]

I shot the International Mini Creedmore, one time at friendship. I was shooting a copy of a Whitmore, not Whitworth. It was 500 meters. They had a team and individual match, since I did not have a team, I entered the individual. You shot prone, sling, with 45 minutes to shoot 15 shots. The had wind flags out. You had to have a single trigger, non set. Metal buttplate. I reworked my double set, removed back set trigger, which made me have two stage take up, but let off about #3. I shot musket cap, 500gr. 451 slug, with 5 grease grooves, SPG bullet lube and a felt over the powder wad underneath, 95 grs 2FFG! I had only meant to just shoot some shots for fun, but in doing so did well enough, some guys from Alabama talked me into entering. I remember some guy from England, making snide remarks about cant believe someone would show up and zero their rifle, having never shot this discipline and then enter the match. I didn't get mad, just buckled down, and beat him and 3 of his smartass friends that were there. I placed 7th overall in World Standing. The target then, was a steel plate, 24"x 32" with a white painted middle, and outer edge black about 6" wide. You got a 5 for white, a 1 for black. I had 9 centers, 5 black, and one missed shot. After we were done, relays were finished that evening, they opened the range for informal shooting, one of the Brits mouthed off I was just "bleeding lucky". I asked him if he believed that enough to wager $20. We did, and when he asked what the bet was, I stated that I could hit the target, off hand with a sling, within 3 shots. We bet $20, as did my best buddy and one of his. I hit right under first shot, caught the stand. #2 &#3 both hit the bottom edge of the black scoring ring, and me and my buddy ate steak that night, courtesy of a couple of pissed of Brits! Before leaving that evening, I told the gents from Britain, this was not the first time, British folk had underestimated the shooting skills of us southern folks, from Ky, Tenn and Georgia and the likes. The inquired as to what match I referred, I replied well we had a little scrap with you fellers from 1776 on for a few years, you sent a guy named Ferguson to teach us hillbillies a lesson, up on Kings Mountain, outnumbered us 3 to 1. I explained that Old Ferguson was so cocky he declared that no one, not even God could remove him from the mountain, much less a backwards bunch of leather britches hill men! He was right, he is still on that mountain, where we shot him and he was buried. Along with most of his men, them that did not surrender, they was shot to rags, with only a few of us southerners hurt or killed. Some folks never learn! They shut up an never said another out of the way word, and the boys from Alabama about peed their pants they got so tickled.

[johnson1942]

i knew what was comming and laughed the whole time working up to it. yup he is still up their untill reserection day. i would have told those guys about the battle of new orleans and the 11 dead on the american side and the 3400 mostly dead and just a few wounded on the british side. nobody closer than 90 yards and most of them dead from head shots. those squirrel rifles werent any good were they. loved your story and you also answered about the trigger. i may be building a longrange muzzle in the near future and i want to get the trigger right.

[Col4570]

I shot the International Mini Creedmore, one time at friendship. I was shooting a copy of a Whitmore, not Whitworth. It was 500 meters. They had a team and individual match, since I did not have a team, I entered the individual. You shot prone, sling, with 45 minutes to shoot 15 shots. The had wind flags out. You had to have a single trigger, non set. Metal buttplate. I reworked my double set, removed back set trigger, which made me have two stage take up, but let off about #3. I shot musket cap, 500gr. 451 slug, with 5 grease grooves, SPG bullet lube and a felt over the powder wad underneath, 95 grs 2FFG! I had only meant to just shoot some shots for fun, but in doing so did well enough, some guys from Alabama talked me into entering. I remember some guy from England, making snide remarks about cant believe someone would show up and zero their rifle, having never shot this discipline and then enter the match. I didn't get mad, just buckled down, and beat him and 3 of his smartass friends that were there. I placed 7th overall in World Standing. The target then, was a steel plate, 24"x 32" with a white painted middle, and outer edge black about 6" wide. You got a 5 for white, a 1 for black. I had 9 centers, 5 black, and one missed shot. After we were done, relays were finished that evening, they opened the range for informal shooting, one of the Brits mouthed off I was just "bleeding lucky". I asked him if he believed that enough to wager $20. We did, and when he asked what the bet was, I stated that I could hit the target, off hand with a sling, within 3 shots. We bet $20, as did my best buddy and one of his. I hit right under first shot, caught the stand. #2 &#3 both hit the bottom edge of the black scoring ring, and me and my buddy ate steak that night, courtesy of a couple of pissed of Brits! Before leaving that evening, I told the gents from Britain, this was not the first time, British folk had underestimated the shooting skills of us southern folks, from Ky, Tenn and Georgia and the likes. The inquired as to what match I referred, I replied well we had a little scrap with you fellers from 1776 on for a few years, you sent a guy named Ferguson to teach us hillbillies a lesson, up on Kings Mountain, outnumbered us 3 to 1. I explained that Old Ferguson was so cocky he declared that no one, not even God could remove him from the mountain, much less a backwards bunch of leather britches hill men! He was right, he is still on that mountain, where we shot him and he was buried. Along with most of his men, them that did not surrender, they was shot to rags, with only a few of us southerners hurt or killed. Some folks never learn! They shut up an never said another out of the way word, and the boys from Alabama about peed their pants they got so tickled.
Mel Gibson might be interested in that story for a Movie.

[Boz330]

There is a weight limit but I don't remember what it is, maybe 12lbs and a couple ounces. The steel Creedmore target is 36" square, white center is 18". There is no specific size for caps but the nipple is very important because of the intense pressure from conical bullets. A regular steel nipple will burn out in just a few rounds. There have been cases where the hammer has rebounded hard enough to break it if the hole in the nipple gets too oversize.
NMLRA has matches in conjunction with the nationals out to 1200yd at Camp Atterbury.

Bob

[oldracer]

I'd recommend giving Lee Shaver a call as he has been on the US team for quite a while. On the South African website for this sort of thing they have a pretty good list of the rules, etc. Their website is: http://bpsu.co.za/ and should help some. There seems to be several different rifle specs depending on who is running things. One has a 2# trigger while another allows set triggers etc.

[johnson1942]

oldracer, what kind of trigger do you have on that high end one you just built?

[Huvius]

I am also just getting into LRML and hope to find some like minded gents here in Colorado.
My range has muzzle loading matches but only for patched roundballs, sort of mountain man style.
I did just buy a Pedersoli Gibbs on sale at dixiegun.com and have an original Rigby. I am surprised how much bigger the barrel on the P.G. is than the Rigby. The Gibbs comes in at something like 11.5lbs and I think the Rigby is supposed to be right at about 10lbs with sights. Mine, of course, are missing...

[oldracer]

The trigger is a L&R model double set type. It can be replaced with a single trigger if wanted. The lock is also an L&R and has the shortest throw I have ever seen. The half cock is only about 1/4 inch off the nipple and the full cock about an inch. It has a tremendous spring in it! I did have to do some clean up on the notches in the tumbler to make sure there was no creep and it breaks right at 1 ounce now. The single trigger I also have breaks at 2# and I had to massage it some also. It is sort of like a two stage AR competition trigger where there is some take up and when you feel the contact with the lock and then bang!

[451whitworth]

I am also just getting into LRML and hope to find some like minded gents here in Colorado.
My range has muzzle loading matches but only for patched roundballs, sort of mountain man style.
I did just buy a Pedersoli Gibbs on sale at dixiegun.com and have an original Rigby. I am surprised how much bigger the barrel on the P.G. is than the Rigby. The Gibbs comes in at something like 11.5lbs and I think the Rigby is supposed to be right at about 10lbs with sights. Mine, of course, are missing...

please post pics of the Rigby!

[Huvius]

Here they both are.
I can get better pictures of the Rigby this weekend.
I am having Mike Neumann make a rear sight for it soon.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-01/8D7EA645-5D5B-4756-BC70-CBE49013AF11.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-01/8D7EA645-5D5B-4756-BC70-CBE49013AF11.jpg.html)

[johnson1942]

huvius, what is the top of the lands diam. of the gibbs bore? i dont understand when they say .451. is .451 the bottom of the goove bore or the top of the lands bore. i have to know this when i order a paperpatch mold. thanks before hand.

[Huvius]

johnson1942, I "slugged" the bore for measurement.
Well, I didn't actually slug the bore as one would with a soft lead slug, I just used pin gauges to measure the bore which is exactly .450". A .451 wouldn't even enter the muzzle but the .451" slid right in with zero wobble.
The way I see it, if I wish to use paper patched boolits, which I do, the bore is the important measurement as far as choosing a mold which will agree with the paper I am using to get me up to the bore dimension so I can load the patched boolit with just a little resistance. That is a whole 'nother road I need to go down myself with this rifle.
I have paper patched enough with BPCRs but I am torn between buying a .442 (ish) mold or just using a mold I have and sizing down in a couple steps with Lee sizing dies. I think I can size my smooth .451" boolits down to around .442" and then resize the patched boolit to .450". I use a similar method for my .461 Gibbs and that seems to work well as far as use of the Lee dies goes.
BTW, the Rigby bore measures at .450" using the pin gauges.
Also, you being in NW Neb., maybe we could share our experiences and trials, and, if you have not bought your Gibbs yet, I must say that the dixiegun.com price is the best I have seen in recent years on a Gibbs.
Also, Also, I have read many posts of Pedersoli Gibbs owners and the bore measurements appear to be a little inconsistant. It would be best to measure your particular rifle and see what you get.
Once I get a decent combo working in my rifle, I would be happy to send some patched boolits your way to try assuming your bore measures out as mine does.

[oldracer]

Something to check, the Pedersoli Gibbs I have has some choke to the bore. It is in the 6 inches or so near the muzzle of the barrel. I did two things to check the bore in my Gibbs and also the Green Mountain barrel in my home made gun. First was a Cerrosafe pour of the last 3 inches of the bore. I also used a soft lead bullet that was pressed into the bore and I used a CO2 ejector to blow it out. I caught the bullet in a large wad of shop towels so there would be no damage to it. Both methods gave the same readings and I was happy to see both barrels were the same. For my paper patch mold I have a custom made 560 grain mold and it is 0.439 as poured. As Johnson1942 told me, I use the Chase wrap systemand that adds 0.010 to the bullet diameter. The bullets have slight resistance entering the muzzle and push easily into the powder area.

[Huvius]

I have read the same thing about Pedersoli choke boring.
I never paid much attention to it simply because it is the muzzle bore which will dictate the projectile diameter which you can use.
I am not sure that my gun does have a tapered bore. When I allow the pin gauge to slide down the barrel, it is a nice fluid slide down which I guess could be because the column of air ahead of it has to escape through the nipple and down hammer (and the rifling) but when tipped down, it is the same smooth slide down the bore and out the muzzle with no discernible slowing toward the muzzle. I may be fooling myself, but even if it does taper, good 'ol black powder will take care of sizing the boolit to the correct diameter.

[johnson1942]

Huvius, if you want to paperpatch that gun their are two ways to go for a vary accurate shooter. one is resize your cast bullet to .440 and use either 18 pound paper or 18 pound poly coated freezer wrap paper, single chase wrap. either old racer or i can easily teach you how to do that. its very simple and the paper never ever hangs on the bullet. the other way is have a cupped base smooth side bullet mold made in .442 then reduce the bullets through a .440 push through reduceing die. then they will never vary in size as they will all be a perfect .440. also use the single wrap system. another little known trick is for those who have a bore that is slightly larger and the resized wrapped bullet is a little too loose when it goes down. heres the answer. roll the naked bullet between two sharp large clean flat files some. this will knarl the bullet up so when patched it will fit good. this way you can make them a little tight also and they still wont be hard to put down the bore. the reason is the knarling is honey combed into the lead and not solid lead. it a way those who want a tight paperpatched bullet in the bore that still loades easy to get it. the reason i use the poly coated 18 pound freeze wrap paper is i put the poly coat on the out side and it is the perfect lube for the patched bullet. patching as you load, it is easier that cloth patching a round ball. ive switched all my paperpatching muzzleloaders to single wrap instead of the double wrap. ive learned a lot from this internet site but that is one thing i learned from another site. i just tweeked the way they do it. i dont use a starter i just put it down the muzzle by hand. no more fliers ever and the paper comes off at the muzzle mostly in one piece, with lines from the lands cut in it.

[Huvius]

Sounds like advice I should heed.
I am so used to the double wrap I use in my cartridge rifles that I assumed that would be appropriate for ML.
I have seen paper patches cut in a "+" shape which just folds around the boolit when pushed down the muzzle. Thought I could try that too and butcher paper would be durable enough for that I would think.

[ResearchPress]

Don't know about US comps. but the World Governing Body for muzzle loading shooting is the Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC - www.mlaic.org). They have rules for international long range championships.

The 10th MLAIC World Long Range Championship will be held at Camp Butner, just north of Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, 6-12 September 2015.

David

[451 Pete]

In the original long range match's held at Wimbledon England the rifle had to weigh no more than 10 lbs. and have a single non adjustable trigger that would break at no more than 3 lbs. Over the years many of the original guns were found to have had the trigger lightened and that they had picked up weight from oils and wax's that had been applied to the wood over time so these parameters have changed according to who's match and where you are shooting. Pretty much all of the shooters shoot paper patch bullets for long range and wipe the inside of the barrel with a slightly damp patch and then a dry one between shots, snapping a cap on the empty rifle to further dry out the breech area before reloading for the next shot to insure good ignition. A good paper to use for wrapping is a thin tracing paper such as that that would be used by an artist and can be found in a good art supply store. When I purchase paper I take a vernier caliper or micrometer with me and measure ten sheets then divide by 10 to get a good reading on the thickness. A good fitment to the bore is such that the bullet will be about .001 under your land to land dimension of the bore.... just small enough it needs around the weight of the loading rod to push it down with little effort but not so large that it will not enter at the muzzle and sit there at rest. Most of the good tracing papers are .0015 or .002 in thickness so knowing the land to land measurement of your rifle and subtracting 4 thickness's of paper will give your bullet diameter needed before wrapping. I use a sponge sitting in a plastic container of water and wet patch the bullet setting them in the plastic egg crate type reloading containers to dry, bullet base down to hold the tail in place. The paper will stretch just a bit in wrapping wet but forms a tight fit to the bullet after drying.

Hope this helps .... Pete

[451whitworth]

I use a similar method for my .461 Gibbs
I will be in your debt if you can also post pics of your .461 Gibbs Metford

[Huvius]

I will be in your debt if you can also post pics of your .461 Gibbs Metford

It is a sporter (I reckon it is the very last 461 Gibbs Farquharson made) but I think it is time to get some good pictures of it in the sunlight.
Will try to get some pictures up tomorrow.

[ResearchPress]

is their limits on the weight of the rifle? ..... ...

If you're still after match rules, I just received news that the next LRML match at Oak Ridge, TN, USA, will be held 27-29 March 2015. I have added more details to my web site, including the competition rules. See: Spring 2015 Oak Ridge LRML Match (http://researchpress.co.uk/index.php/news/191-oakridge201503news)

Pictured below is an original Gibbs-Metford from late in the period of manufacture of such rifles (early 1880s).

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/pics/metford-a.jpg

David

[ResearchPress]

If you're in the vicinity of Camp Butner, North Carolina, 17-19 April then the United States International Muzzle Loading Team (USIMLT) National Match may be of interest. The course of fire is 300, 500, 600 yards (mid-range), 900 and 1,000 yards (long range).

For those with international aspirations or interest there will also be a chance to have your rifle and equipment checked to see if everything meets international standards.

See the news section of my site: USIMLT National Match (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/news/195-usimltnational2015)

David

[Huvius]

I will be in your debt if you can also post pics of your .461 Gibbs Metford
I admittedly have been remiss in taking any new pictures of the Gibbs but have some saved.It is the one on the left, the other is a 303, obviously not a muzzle loader though so the moderator can move it if wanted.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/461and303GibbsFarquharsons004jpg-1.jpg

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/461and303GibbsFarquharsons007jpg-1.jpg

[johnson1942]

wow, they are beautiful

[Southron]

Interestingly enough, Major Ferguson's command at Kings Mountain consisted mostly of American Loyalists and many of them died with him on that day on that mountainside. Along with everything else, the American Revolution was a very bitter civil war.

I highly recommend that everyone visit the National Military Park at Kings Mountain on the North Carolina/South Carolina border. The displays in the Visitors Center highlight the use of the American Long Rifle in the battle there and the Revolution.

http://www.nps.gov/kimo/learn/index.htm

[Geezer in NH]

NMLRA.com for competition or whatever club you are in. For fun and own satisfaction the moon is the limit!

[Southron]

A British website, Research Press, has a lot of information on the long range shooting of muzzleloaders, both historic in the 19th Century and contemporary times.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/sitemap