1884 Trapdoor - first gun I ever purchased

[mr-natural]

In 1958 right out of grade school I'm working a ranch in Montana and am offered the 1884 Trapdoor in exchange for 3 days labor (at $75/month that comes out to about $7.35). Not knowing anything I clean it up and fire some factory ammo and it shoots pretty good. Years later I start casting but they tumble. Tried lots of variations of smokeless powder but stuck with Lyman 405 grain bullets. Tumble. Rusty Musket suggested black powder is the answer so I purchased some fff. Slugged the barrel today and here's what I've found: Groove Diameter is 0.4615", Bore Diameter is 0.4575". My unsized boolets are 0.459 max. From what I understand I should be shooting a boolet 1 or 2 thousandths larger than the groove diameter. I haven't fired any black powder loads yet as I'm thinking I need a larger boolet - or should I just get a hollow base mold? Suggestions please - I love this rifle and I especially love shooting it.

[Mk42gunner]

Welcome aboard, mr-natural.

If you will scroll down to the single shot section, (or do a search) there is a lot of info on loading for the trapdoors. Maybe in the BPCR section also.

Robert

[rexherring]

If they are soft enough like a 20:1 lead/tin the base should bump up to fit or get a Lee 405HB mold and it should expand to fit just fine.

[Scharfschuetze]

Member Larry Gibson wrote a good thread on loading for the Trapdoors. A quick search should find it.

I share your affection for the old girls. I have more than a few and they all shoot well with properly cast and sized boolits. The Lee 405 grain hollow base mould shoots very well in the Trapdoor's 3 groove barrels. The Lyman 457193 405 grain boolit as cast also shoots very well.

[Wayne Smith]

Sounds like your dimensions are pretty normal for a Trapdoor. Yes, you need a bigger boolit. There are a lot to choose from.

[Gtek]

Paper Patching, custom mold, or a little lapping in a cavity are options. Not being an aluminum fan, they cost $20.00 and lap easier.

[35remington]

My Lee hollowbase mould casts from .462 to .463" which is just what is needed for you.

[mr-natural]

Thanks 35remington, I ordered one today. I'm anxious to try it.

[mr-natural]

Scharf, have you had any luck with the 457193 boolits using smokless? I have not.

[wmitty]

Dad had a 1884 hanging over the fireplace when I was kid. When I finally got old enough I asked if we could shoot it. Had a few old jacketed rounds and after that we decided to try reloading for it but jacketed bullets were hard to find for it back in 1966. Wound up with Hornady .454 250 grain which as you can imagine kind of ricocheted down the barrel. I decided the Lyman 457124 had to be the answer and ordered mould, ladle, pot, and lube from Lyman. Long story short when we went to check the target; you guessed it; keyholes! Set me back 15 years as a caster. Didn't realize the boolits were still undersize.

[mr-natural]

Gtek, Thanks for your input, can you point me to any articles regarding your suggestion of paper patching or how to lap the cavity (I presume you are referring to the boolit mold cavity) without a lathe. I've order a HB mold today but I'm open to trying your suggestions also. In the interim I'll do some searching around this site. Thanks,

[John Boy]

See loading data at the en of the website ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[Scharfschuetze]

Scharf, have you had any luck with the 457193 boolits using smokless? I have not.

Yes, I shot it as cast at about .460" with the older formula WWs and 50/50 lube over SR 4759 at about 1,300 fps with good results. That pretty well duplicates the original 45/70/405 infantry load. To be honest though, I haven't shot one in a while in my original TDs as I really like the Lee 405 grain mould in them. I do use the Lyman design and other modern designs in my replica H&R Officer's Model TD as it's easier to cast and in the .458" barrel they shoot very well out to many hundreds of yards.

While I have always had good results with 405 grain projectiles in the 45/70, I recently bought the Lee 500 grain RN mould in order to replicate the later 500 grain infantry and gatling gun load, but I haven't got around to that project yet.

[Dutchman]

Looks like this book is out of print. Better get it while you can. Amazon is $120.

http://www.shopspg.net/Loading-Cartridges-For-The-Original-45-70-Rifle-books-loadingcartridges4570.htm

Great book, btw.

also....

Description and Rules for the Springfield Rifle, Carbine and Army Revolver, 1874. (Trapdoors, Colt M1873, S&W Schofield.) 53 pages, illustrated. Covers the guns, tools, cartridges and ballistics. Key collectors' manual. $10.00 http://www.caldwellandcompany.net/Books1.html

http://www.idsabooks.com/cgi-bin/idb455/4628.html?id=ra4hBdLP

http://cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3311

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks, Dutch. Just ordered the ideabooks version. I'm curious how the manual of arms has changed in 140 years for my S&W Model 3 (mine is 2000 made).

[jrmartin1964]

For those that aren't aware, the 1874 manual is available for download as a PDF for free from Google Books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=tZdPAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=description+and+rules+for+the+management&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tBGvVMjmDMKfyASHjoHwBA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCDj2BA#v=onepage&q=description%20and%20rules%20for%20the%20manageme nt&f=false

[MtGun44]

Use the Lee 405 HB mold, case with 1-30 alloy or similar, load over about 12 gr of Unique and you
will be quite surprised at the results.

IMO, doing the normal "fit to groove +.002" is a waste of time with these particular rifles and especially
with the availability of the Lee mold, SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR TRAPDOORS by Spence Wolf.

Save yourself some time and follow the "known path to success".

Bill

[cajun shooter]

I'm sorry but the best way to shoot a TD is with the powder it was designed to shoot, Black Powder. The clean up is very simple and it "DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU RUNNING HOME AND TEARING THE GUN A PART" and then flushed with gallons of hot water and soap.
If you anneal your case necks before loading and use the proper bullet to fit your bore, your time cleaning will be just a couple of minutes. Just use a good grade of BP, like KIK, SWISS, GOEX, and so on. You will be hooked. Later Fairshake

[mr-natural]

Cajun, I've have my black powder now I'm just waiting for my metal funnel to arrive as I understand that it's a needed devise for black powder. However I'm curious as to why the BP is sold in plastic containers.

[Scharfschuetze]

Cajun, I've have my black powder now I'm just waiting for my metal funnel to arrive as I understand that it's a needed devise for black powder. However I'm curious as to why the BP is sold in plastic containers.

Over the years I've seen BP come in cardboard as well as metal cans. Plastic containers seem to be in vogue for all types of powder now.

[44man]

Cajun, I've have my black powder now I'm just waiting for my metal funnel to arrive as I understand that it's a needed devise for black powder. However I'm curious as to why the BP is sold in plastic containers.
The black plastic is kind of immune to static, special stuff. BP can't be set off with static anyway, been proven, the coating directs the charge to ground. I use my Redding measure all the time with BP. All the load containers I have to carry hunting are also plastic. 61 years shooting BP and nothing ever happened. I have used a plastic funnel all those years.