Revolver...the first millisecond....and cyl throat leading....

[kevmc]

Some thoughts on the first millisecond after firing a revolver........

Let's talk .357...
I've got a SW 66-2 4"bbl...thinking of shooting IDPA..
I'd like to use 38spl brass for positive ejection, throats are .3575.
The cases I have (new RP 38 spl) measure .009" case walls, boolits (#359640's) are sized to .357 with BAC lube.
Std. 38/357 chamber dia. is .380"...which mine are.
So,....upon firing, hot/high pressure gases expand the case to fill chamber and boolit starts to move forward.
This creates a .005" gap between case and boolit, (case o.d. is now .380, .009"walls, so case i.d. is now .362, .357 boolit).
At this point the boolit has not yet reached the throat, (38 case, .357 chamber).
Those hot gases blow thru this .005" gap, taking lube/lead ahead of the boolit and leave leading from the case mouth thru the throat into the forcing cone...
Considering that the boolit is now unsupported in its alignment with the throat, its surprising they shoot as well as they do and that the leading isn't far worse!!!

I've tried sizing to .359", this reduces the gap between case and boolit to .003" which reduces leading some, but now shoving a .359" boolit into a .3575 throat...

I've tried some 38+P cases which have case walls of.011", loaded a .357" boolit (cartridge OD of .379").
This held the boolit in alignment with the throat and reduced the gap at firing between the case and boolit which eliminated leading. Accuracy was also good, but I don't have many of these cases.....

Amazing we can get these guns to shoot as well as we do!!

[tazman]

Very well thought out. I just quibble on 2 points.
1 the .005 gap you speak of should not all be on one side. It should hopefully be a .0025 gap all the way around.
2 You assume the case expands completely and releases the boolit before there is any boolit movement. I question that assumption.
I think the boolit will begin to slide forward inside the case before the case fully expands(perhaps in a kind of ripple/wave effect on the side of the case)over the entire length of the case. If the boolit is of a standard length/weight(148-158 grains), the rear of the boolit will still be inside the case when the front of it enters the cylinder throat. Perhaps with a couple of thousandths slop but not terrible. If the boolit is sized to fit the throat, the throat will direct the boolit into the forcing cone with little if any slop and the lube should seal the gap.
I think simply sizing to throat diameter would greatly reduce if not completely stop your leading problem without having to find a bunch of specifically sized cases.
I understand where you are coming from and you say that it is working for you. That is well and good. Many revolvers out there have chambers that are looser than yours(mine for instance). I have to use the approach I mentioned to get rid of leading since there is no way I am going to find brass that will fit the chamber tight enough to seal the chamber and still have enough wall thickness to contact/support the boolit. I have to rely on throat fit to seal things up and get my alignment right.

[Outpost75]

With a standard-pressure .38 Special load assembled with a soft bullet of 8-10 BHN, using a standard charge of Bullseye, the peak pressure will be reached before the bullet base clears the case mouth and the base will upset to fill the available space. The case will also expand radially against the chamber walls. When .38 Special ammunition is fired in a .357 chamber, soft bullets will attempt to upset to fill the void between the case mouth and ball seat of the chamber. If the axial length of the bullet is short enough that the base clears the case mouth before the forepart of the bullet achieves full radial contact with the cylinder throat, the bullet will be upset non-symmetrically and may "slump" to one side or the other, creating a passage for expanding powder gases to leak past the bullet base, causing ablation of the lead surface, depositing residue on the chamber walls. If the bullet acquires significant translational velocity in entering the forcing cone, the bullet will also "skid" until engaging the rifling sufficiently to impart rotation.

Leading is prevented by proper bullet "fit", so that the base upsets adequately to seal, combined with adequate lubrication which flows under pressure and has good wetting ability to coat the bore, to prevent adhesion of ablated lead residues onto the bore surface.

[tazman]

OUTPOST75 If I read you correctly having a boolit that didn't tend to upset at those pressures(harder/tougher alloy) would be a plus since it wouldn't deform as easily provided sizing was correct for the cylinder throats. Also it would decrease/eliminate the skid you speak of.
Having a boolit long enough that the front driving bands enter the throat before the base leaves the case would also be a plus.
Sounds like a hard boolit, long enough to reach the cylinder throat while still in the case, sized to fit the throats, lubed with a fairly soft lube that flows easily, with a nose profile angled to match the forcing cone would be ideal for accuracy. Correct?
This sounds remarkably like a Lee 358-158-rf cast from a heat treatable alloy.
The jump from a 38 special case mouth to the cylinder throat of a 357 mag revolver is almost exactly .250 inches. The length of the driving bands of the Lee boolit is .270. Sounds like we may have a winner.
When using a 357 magnum case the jump would be much less.

[leftiye]

Or a wadcutter seated out to be in the throat before being fired. Probly pay with all that unsupported length to keep pressures below the yield point of the lead (hard lead) so the whole boolit doesn't expand to fill the chamber.

[varmint243]

This is certainly an interesting read, I had not put that much thought into what may be happening inside the cylinder
It is clear to me that a revolver has a lot more going on as far as the bullet is concerned
I have noticed no particular difference between accuracy when using 38 or 357 cases in my 686
I have not noticed any particular difference in accuracy between using 38 loads in my 686 or model 10 custom PPC & model 14's
I expected there would be an improvement to accuracy when using a 357 case in the 686 and have found no practical difference

Both of your thoughts seem to support my theory that using a bevel base lead bullet in a revolver is a really bad idea
The bullet jump and the gasses being able to get around the bevel base as well as having a hard edge for the gasses to work against
The bevel base also means that the bullet is effectively leaving the case that much sooner and more prone to the internal issues discussed
I am convinced that a flat base bullet is essential to accuracy and to prevent leading with the base fully sealing to the throat and bore

My current thoughts are centered around the question if the throat is .3575 why aren't we sizing bullets at .3575 ?
It seems to be generally accepted that .358 is a good size, and has been working well for me over the years
I suspect I would see no real world difference in sizing my bullets .3575 instead of .358
I am considering getting a hone to open up my .357 size die with and test

Currently most of my shooting is done at 40 yards, IMO testing should be done at 40 or 50 yards, 25 or less doesn't really seem to show the variation
I am currently in the midst of testing several different 38 WC moulds
I have a RCBS, H&G, Ideal, Lee, and Saeco version of the same 38-148WC
There does seem to be a difference in the velocity that can be shot between the slightly different designs, hardness and lube also seem to be a factor
There is no particular difference in accuracy until there is some leading
Testing will probably continue for the rest of the winter, IMO it takes about 500 carefully shot rounds to start to form an opinion
I believe that being able to keep the velocity up within reason seems to help accuracy a little due to the bullet getting out of the bore quicker
This seems to be supported by my Benelli MP95e .22 that has a short bore and can still get a shot on target even when I know I have blown the follow thru

[44man]

Finally, there is a light at the end of the tunnel! The answer is here.
Good responses fellas, I can't add more.

[kevmc]

OUTPOST75 If I read you correctly having a boolit that didn't tend to upset at those pressures(harder/tougher alloy) would be a plus since it wouldn't deform as easily provided sizing was correct for the cylinder throats. Also it would decrease/eliminate the skid you speak of.
Having a boolit long enough that the front driving bands enter the throat before the base leaves the case would also be a plus.
Sounds like a hard boolit, long enough to reach the cylinder throat while still in the case, sized to fit the throats, lubed with a fairly soft lube that flows easily, with a nose profile angled to match the forcing cone would be ideal for accuracy. Correct?
This sounds remarkably like a Lee 358-158-rf cast from a heat treatable alloy.
The jump from a 38 special case mouth to the cylinder throat of a 357 mag revolver is almost exactly .250 inches. The length of the driving bands of the Lee boolit is .270. Sounds like we may have a winner.
When using a 357 magnum case the jump would be much less.

I'm not sure I agree with the "hard boolit", needs to upset enough to seal case to prevent blowby. In this case the boolit base needs to expand .005" to seal. I'm using an alloy of BHN 10(cabine tree)...may need to soften....

The boolit in use (173grRNFP) has a base band of .120", grease groove of .100", and a mid band of .110", (forward of crimp is .355" RN (speed loader)).
From base to crimp is .330", so it seals the throat before leaving case.....

I think that the leading starts at the case mouth and is blown forward from there, cause is blowby/ablated lead before boolit leaves case. Boolit may not be sealing case (may need softer alloy), the lube (BAC) not preventing lead from adhering to transition area between case mouth and throat. After a few shots, leading is only in this transition area, more shots extend the leading into the throat, extended shooting and leading will start to show in the forcing cone. I believe that once the boolit enters the throat, all's well.

[Petrol & Powder]

There are some bright folks on this forum.
I tend to agree with tazman's post #2. I think the OP's assumption that the case expands before the bullet starts to move may be flawed. I also agree that clearance is hopefully the same on all sides of the bullet as tazman pointed out, which means the gap is far less than the speculated .005".
Since we're only talking about the incredibly short period of time before the bullet has even left the cylinder, a lot of the discussion can be left for later.
The question is: During the time the bullet has started to move BUT before the front driving band has reached the initial restriction of the throat directly in front of the chamber; has the casing expanded enough to allow gas to blow past the entire bullet? The answer is a solid, "who knows?"
My feeling is that tazman is correct that the bullet starts to move forward and actually begins to enter the throat before the casing has expanded to the point that gas can escape past the base of the bullet. Bullet lube may play a big role in sealing the casing at that point. The slight mass of the lube may be enough to stop the gas from blowing through that .0025" gap.

[cajun shooter]

If you are reading a BHN of 10, then that is equal to a 20-1 alloy that is a good lead bullet that will have obturation and seal the bore if the bullet is at least .001 above bore size.
I have loaded and fired thousands of 38 special bullets loaded in 38 cases from 357 guns such as the model 19, 66, 27, 28, 686 and others. I was a Firearms Instructor and Armorer for a large police department. I shot in PPC matches on a regular bases with Speer HBWC bullets and a 2.7 grain Bullseye load. Never had leading but the guns were all given an 11 degree throat, timing set, range rod checked for cylinder alignment. Have you checked your revolver with a Range Rod? Later David

[flylot]

I'm still trying to get through all the stickies and you guys come up with this discussion. Great read, for a new guy it's like drinking water from a fire hose!

[tazman]

I think that the leading starts at the case mouth and is blown forward from there, cause is blowby/ablated lead before boolit leaves case. Boolit may not be sealing case (may need softer alloy), the lube (BAC) not preventing lead from adhering to transition area between case mouth and throat. After a few shots, leading is only in this transition area, more shots extend the leading into the throat, extended shooting and leading will start to show in the forcing cone. I believe that once the boolit enters the throat, all's well.
Given what you say, you would think leading should form on the chamber walls between the case and the throat when using 38 special cases unless you are saying that the lead gets blown past that point. I never see leading form in the cylinders of my revolvers. Just a light powder fouling that cleans easily. I don't get leading in my forcing cone either.
My cylinder throats measure .3580. Luckily, they all measure the same. My groove diameter measures .3573. I size water quenched boolits to .358 and use White Label X-Lox for lube.
When I sized the boolits to .357 I would get leading build up in the forcing cone and all the way down the barrel after 50 shots or so. At .358 all the leading stopped and accuracy improved.
When I tried softer boolits my accuracy dropped. The central group was the same but there were fliers that I couldn't explain. I recovered some of those boolits and they showed skidding from when the boolits entered the rifling. Some showed skidding clear to the base of he boolit. As I hardened my alloy the skidding decreased and stopped and the fliers stopped as well.
There is more here to consider than just getting the boolit into the cylinder throat cleanly.
You also have to get it into the barrel cleanly and properly aligned. Having the nose either as a bore rider that will self align or as a taper that fits the forcing cone would help. If your cylinders are perfectly aligned you could theoretically use anything. Even the most perfectly aligned cylinders and locking system will wear. Having a nose profile that will tend to self align the boolit would be a plus. Having it harder so it would resist nose deformation and aid in the alignment is also a plus.
As always fit is king. I prefer not to rely on deformation/obduration(which is another name for distorting the boolit shape) to seal the throats and barrel.

[varmint243]

I just had an interesting thought ...
My 625 45ACP headspaces on the case mouth because I don't use the moon clips when using it for target work
This effectively eliminates all gap and jump between the case mouth/bullet/throat
That means that the SWC bullet edge is just inside the throat before any movement happens
The chambers in the 625 are snug enough that I am considering reaming them a touch
I have to give the cartridges a good hard push into the chambers so the cylinder doesn't drag
My bullets are sized .452 and the throat measures .4515
I just cleaned the 625 and the tiny amount of leading in the throats and at the forcing cone was really no different than my 38/357 revolvers when they are running well
It certainly makes me think that there is more going on with this than it may appear

[44man]

NEVER would I say to make a boolit softer. Just fit first. Just why would you slump a boolit into the space between the case and throat?

[tazman]

I think you will get a tiny amount of leading in the forcing cone build up over time regardless of everything being perfect. Unless you are shooting gas checks on all your boolits, the base of the boolit is exposed to gasses and will cut a little. This will be deposited in your forcing cone and the front of your cylinder area as the boolit transitions from the cylinder to the barrel where it will not be rubbed off by later boolit passage.
Normally this would not be a problem unless allowed too build up over time to the point where it interfered with normal gun function.
If you have a rough forcing cone, the lead will be literally scraped off the sides of the boolit as it goes into the barrel. This could be a serious issue.

[kevmc]

If you are reading a BHN of 10, then that is equal to a 20-1 alloy that is a good lead bullet that will have obturation and seal the bore if the bullet is at least .001 above bore size.
I have loaded and fired thousands of 38 special bullets loaded in 38 cases from 357 guns such as the model 19, 66, 27, 28, 686 and others. I was a Firearms Instructor and Armorer for a large police department. I shot in PPC matches on a regular bases with Speer HBWC bullets and a 2.7 grain Bullseye load. Never had leading but the guns were all given an 11 degree throat, timing set, range rod checked for cylinder alignment. Have you checked your revolver with a Range Rod? Later David

This discussion is about what happens BEFORE the boolit leaves the cylinder...leading is from the case mouth thru the throat..bore isn't a problem, no leading there.
Don't get me wrong here, ALL thoughts are welcome!!

[kevmc]

I just had an interesting thought ...
My 625 45ACP headspaces on the case mouth because I don't use the moon clips when using it for target work
This effectively eliminates all gap and jump between the case mouth/bullet/throat
That means that the SWC bullet edge is just inside the throat before any movement happens
The chambers in the 625 are snug enough that I am considering reaming them a touch
I have to give the cartridges a good hard push into the chambers so the cylinder doesn't drag
My bullets are sized .452 and the throat measures .4515
I just cleaned the 625 and the tiny amount of leading in the throats and at the forcing cone was really no different than my 38/357 revolvers when they are running well
It certainly makes me think that there is more going on with this than it may appear

Very Interesting thought !!!!

[tazman]

I think this may be one of those areas when we really can't know for certain what happens in sufficient detail to make complete analysis of it. It happens too fast. It happens inside the cylinder where it can't be seen.
We can collect data and experience. We can experiment and change variables. We can set up rules about what seems to work. But we can never be completely sure of what is happening in there during that short time the boolit is leaving the cylinder.
Assuming a final velocity of 1000 fps. The boolit will have an average velocity at any point inside the barrel of 500fps or more. Most of this is developed in the first inch or so of boolit travel(think about velocities from 2-3 inch barrels). The boolit would clear the barrel in a millisecond(.001seconds).
That first inch of travel clears the cylinder and moves the boolit inside the barrel past the forcing cone. That movement only takes about .0002 seconds.
It is somewhat surprising that we can even control what happens a well as we do.

[44man]

So true and is why I sit and hold my head at the bench with imagination in control, it is so perplexing at times.
You guys are thinking so it makes me happy. Strange how much can be gained from imagination.

[Outpost75]

NEVER would I say to make a boolit softer. Just fit first. Just why would you slump a boolit into the space between the case and throat?

Most leading in revolvers is caused by bullets being too hard to upset and seal the bore upon ignition, so that hot powder gases cause ablation of the surface in the same manner in which you would clean dirt off your driveway with a leaf blower. In standard pressure .38 Special loads bullet hardness of greater than 8-10 BHN isn't needed.

But firing .38 Special in a .357 chamber can cause problems. There was one particular lot of Federal wadcutter which regularly produced over 70 hits in a 60-shot Tactical Revolver Course caused by blowing the skirts off the bullets, inflating them into the chamber gap, then stretching them to the point of ductile failure so that two pieces left the bore. Finite element analysis confirmed the mechanism, along with changing cylinders in academy guns to. 38 Special, then all of a sudden, problem solved until the whole 6 million rounds were used up.

[44man]

Hard boolits do not lead a bore if fit. Most leading is from too soft, slump and skid. No way I would shoot a HB. They flare at the muzzle. They flare before entering the throats.

[DougGuy]

kevmc I will be glad to help with cylinder throat reaming and/or chamfering also if you decide you want to go this way, send a PM. .3585" or .359" throats not a problem.

[Outpost75]

Hard boolits do not lead a bore if fit. Most leading is from too soft, slump and skid. No way I would shoot a HB. They flare at the muzzle. They flare before entering the throats.

From short barrels, yes, skirts will open, but from 4" or longer in standard pressure loads they do not. The high speed photos taken by BRL in compiling Report 1630 prove this. I agree that HBs are not suitable above 14-16000 psia, but they are well proven in. 38 Special match target ammunition.

[tazman]

If you fit the boolit properly to your gun you should not lead the throats or barrel no matter how hard the boolit is. An undersized boolit that is soft enough to deform and seal the barrel is an invitation to inaccuracy since you cannot deform the boolit the same way every time. Hence the unexplained flyers in your group.
The soft hollow based wadcutters fired at low pressure in your example are the only exception since they are designed to deform in a specific manner. You can't do that with a solid projectile shot at full power.
I shoot hard boolits. I don't get leading in my revolvers or my 9mm. But, I take care to fit the boolits to my gun.
If you are sizing the hard boolits to your cylinder throats and are getting leading, you have another problem you need to deal with. It isn't the boolit that is causing the issue.

[kevmc]

kevmc I will be glad to help with cylinder throat reaming and/or chamfering also if you decide you want to go this way, send a PM. .3585" or .359" throats not a problem.


I've already thought about having you ream the throats.....I'm very pleased with the .41 mag cyl. you did!!

[kevmc]

If you fit the boolit properly to your gun you should not lead the throats or barrel no matter how hard the boolit is. An undersized boolit that is soft enough to deform and seal the barrel is an invitation to inaccuracy since you cannot deform the boolit the same way every time. Hence the unexplained flyers in your group.
The soft hollow based wadcutters fired at low pressure in your example are the only exception since they are designed to deform in a specific manner. You can't do that with a solid projectile shot at full power.
I shoot hard boolits. I don't get leading in my revolvers or my 9mm. But, I take care to fit the boolits to my gun.
If you are sizing the hard boolits to your cylinder throats and are getting leading, you have another problem you need to deal with. It isn't the boolit that is causing the issue.

Reading several times about "fitting boolit to gun", but not specifics about how each thinks is correct.
I often read that boolit should be a slip fit in throats. These throats are .3575", and .3570" can be pushed thru-.3580" not.
Leading is from case mouth thru throats....is .3570" not correct?
My thinking is that gas must be blowing by before boolit reaches/seals throat...other possibility is lead being applied after boolit has gone, (base melting?).

[tazman]

Reading several times about "fitting boolit to gun", but not specifics about how each thinks is correct.
I often read that boolit should be a slip fit in throats. These throats are .3575", and .3570" can be pushed thru-.3580" not.
Leading is from case mouth thru throats....is .3570" not correct?
My thinking is that gas must be blowing by before boolit reaches/seals throat...other possibility is lead being applied after boolit has gone, (base melting?).

I just reread all your posts in this thread. I don't see where you mention what lube you are using. I am not certain it matters much but it would be another data point.
You state that your leading occurs inside the cylinder, through the throats, and into the forcing cone, but not into the barrel.
You also never state if there is enough build up to effect accuracy but this can be assumed to be the case.
Just as a trial, you could get hold of some boolits with gas checks to see if they do the same thing. This would let you know if the leading is coming off the base of the boolit or the sides.
You also don't mention which powder you are using. There are reported instances on this site where a powder change from some really fast powders to a slower powder helped to stop leading.
For some people, certain powder and lube combinations just don't work well for whatever reason.

[44man]

Worst leading I ever seen was when I cleaned guns for the Cleveland police that shot at the West Cleveland range. They all shot factory wad cutters for practice and the whole gun would be full of lead, inside and outside, cylinder and frame. It was hard to not harm the bluing.
Boolits were dead soft. Lead blew out the gap.
Consider fast powders peak in the case, instant thump. Pressures might be low but it is there all at once. Then empty brass showed signs of crimp left because the soft lead would not open them so they were scraped trying to exit. All kinds of problems.
My experiments with alloys showed a Keith shot much better when made VERY hard. I worked alloys to 28 and 30 BHN, groups got tighter all the way up. I never worked a wad cutter, still don't like them.
I can shoot a 50-50 alloy but they MUST have a GC or I get fliers all over the place. They will not lead the gun with a good lube. I will get leading with Alox. Even air cooled WW boolits give me too many fliers so all I shoot are water dropped and a 50-50 alloy is oven hardened. For some reason an air cooled boolit shoots better if the GC is annealed.
The method to my madness comes from such great accuracy with jacketed so I figure to make cast act the same way. I will never believe in expanding a boolit to seal, make it seal first. Never shoot a boolit over throat size. I shoot boolits under throat, .430" from .4324 throats. Groove at .430". I shoot .431" to .432" and darned if I can tell any difference. Just never make the cylinder a size die.
Revolvers are funny animals so if you have a .357" groove and .3575" throats, why shoot .358" boolits?

[tazman]

I found your reference to the lube. I read past it the first couple of times. BAC lube is used and liked by a lot of people on the site. I have no experience with it myself so cannot comment on it.
I still think a good test would be a gas check boolit. It would clear up issues about the base of the boolit gas cutting being the culprit. There are plain base gas checks available from people on this site. If you use those, that would be the only variable change.
From the mold number I have to assume it is a MiHec mold. The pictures of the MiHec boolit look like it is a good choice.

[44man]

I don't know how relevant it is but I found more GG's better then one huge one. I would like to see more work along this line. I just do not like the huge Keith GG.

[Outpost75]

I don't know how relevant it is but I found more GG's better then one huge one. I would like to see more work along this line. I just do not like the huge Keith GG.

I agree! With smokeless powders and modern lubes surface area is more important than volume.

When using black powder and primitive lubricants the whole thing is lube volume, and Keith was mentored by the old school.

We've got better lubes than tallow, beeswax and cup grease today, and when was the last time you ever saw steam cylinder oil?

[Scharfschuetze]

problem solved until the whole 6 million rounds were used up

A little OT, but with numbers like that... was that at the F.L.E.T.C.?

[kevmc]

"Just never make the cylinder a size die."
X2 if the taper from charge hole to throat is not as smooth and polished as a size die....
Shave a little lead...smear it with lube as the grease groove passes....apply hot gasses....Soldering 101!!
Slip fit those bullets....
I believe that the issue I'm having comes from the boolit not reaching the throat...
Seems all my SW revolvers have a taper .150" long from end of charge hole to start of throat...(.Mod#'s 66 K38 657 586 686+ and 3 629's) as does my Ruger Security six...all double actions.
Even a Keith style boolit (.100" front drive band) needs to jump that first .050".
I guess that for a DA revolver, this ensures easy chambering.
Seems to me that a better chamber would have a taper of about .101" long from charge hole to throat.
This would place a boolit with a .100" front driving band right against the throat and still allow easy chambering.

For my SW's with a taper of .150" long, how about a custom mold with a .150" front band????
Too wide??

How about your chambers??
I'd be interested in hearing what revolver you have, that a standard boolit, crimped in the crimp grove, reaches to/into the throat.
Single actions???
If the boolit does enter the throat, chambering might require the same push to seat as would be needed to slip fit a boolit by hand.
This wouldn't work for speedloaders.

[Char-Gar]

Some good folks here dishing out some good information for sure. I just want to make a few random and disjointed observations from my own experience as it relates to the OP.

1. I don't know why the OP thinks 38 Special cases offer more positive ejection that the longer magnum cases. If you want positive ejection with either case, you point the muzzle of the handgun straight up and give the ejector rod a good rap with your hand. Cases of whatever length come out as slick as snot on a glass door knob.

2. When using the shooter Special cases in the longer Magnum charge holes, I have never noticed an increase in leading. There will be a build up of powder trash and bullet lube in the front end of the charge hole, but that is not leading. Where there is a leading issue, it will not be cause of short cases in long chambers.

3. I try and avoid hollow base wadcutters in either case, so I don't have to be concern about the skirt blowing off. I know skirts vary in thickness, but I just don't want the bother when solid base wadcutters deliver all the accuracy I want and can utilize.

4. There are bullet design available that will allow the bullet to seated out to magnum OAL in the Special case if the jump bothers you. There might be some slight degrading of accuracy due to the bullet jump from the short case, but it is minimal for most purposes.

5. .3575 is about normal for Smith and Wesson throats and .357 size bullet will produce a smidge better accuracy that .358 bullets. In IDPA that smidge will not be important.

6. I have never found the need for bullet harder than ACWW (about Bhn 9 -10) in any of my revolvers. I do not shot high pressure magnum loads anymore.

7. Any difference in case wall thickness will be due to make and/or lot of cases and not +P or regular cases. The difference in headstamp is to help the shooter identify what load he is stuffing in his sixgun.

[tazman]

If that long front band is sized to be a tight slip fit for the throat, it should work. Obviously, the closer you can get that front band to the throat the less problem you should have.
I know this is late in the discussion for this but have you checked to make sure your cases are not swaging down the boolits a bit when seating?
You don't hear a lot about it in 38/357 but it can still happen. If the rear band of the boolit was getting swaged down, that would explain some things.

[kevmc]

If that long front band is sized to be a tight slip fit for the throat, it should work. Obviously, the closer you can get that front band to the throat the less problem you should have.
I know this is late in the discussion for this but have you checked to make sure your cases are not swaging down the boolits a bit when seating?
You don't hear a lot about it in 38/357 but it can still happen. If the rear band of the boolit was getting swaged down, that would explain some things.

I've checked, all good.

[kevmc]

Some good folks here dishing out some good information for sure. I just want to make a few random and disjointed observations from my own experience as it relates to the OP.

1. I don't know why the OP thinks 38 Special cases offer more positive ejection that the longer magnum cases. If you want positive ejection with either case, you point the muzzle of the handgun straight up and give the ejector rod a good rap with your hand. Cases of whatever length come out as slick as snot on a glass door knob.

2. When using the shooter Special cases in the longer Magnum charge holes, I have never noticed an increase in leading. There will be a build up of powder trash and bullet lube in the front end of the charge hole, but that is not leading. Where there is a leading issue, it will not be cause of short cases in long chambers.

3. I try and avoid hollow base wadcutters in either case, so I don't have to be concern about the skirt blowing off. I know skirts vary in thickness, but I just don't want the bother when solid base wadcutters deliver all the accuracy I want and can utilize.

4. There are bullet design available that will allow the bullet to seated out to magnum OAL in the Special case if the jump bothers you. There might be some slight degrading of accuracy due to the bullet jump from the short case, but it is minimal for most purposes.

5. .3575 is about normal for Smith and Wesson throats and .357 size bullet will produce a smidge better accuracy that .358 bullets. In IDPA that smidge will not be important.

6. I have never found the need for bullet harder than ACWW (about Bhn 9 -10) in any of my revolvers. I do not shot high pressure magnum loads anymore.

7. Any difference in case wall thickness will be due to make and/or lot of cases and not +P or regular cases. The difference in headstamp is to help the shooter identify what load he is stuffing in his sixgun.

Char,
When shooting 38 spl. in mag chamber, do you still size to slip fit?
Anything else you do for 38's in 357??