What alloy for 45-70 hunting bullet

[Bulseyetom]

Shooting a modern Sharps in 45-70 and want to develop a load for mule deer hunting where shots to 150 yards are common. I am leaning toward the Gould boolit with 20:1 but have no idea if I can push that to 1600 fps or not. What boolit/alloy would you recommend. Will be shooting smokeless. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Tom

[richhodg66]

HAven't hunted with the .45-70, but I would think the softest alloy you could get the desired accuracy with is what you want. 20:1 is pretty soft, if it shoots well for you, go for it. I can tell you from muzzle loader experience that pure lead expands like all get out on deer at 1300 FPS or so, I would think 20:1 would too with a slight increase in velocity.

[GoodOlBoy]

150 yards a 405gr RNFP lead bullet is more than enough to do the job on anything you will run across. I honestly don't know the difference in a gould and non-gould bullet so I am showing my ignorance on this one. 20 to 1 should be fine at velocities up to 1400 fps or so, 16 to 1 will work up until the point where you need to start considering gas checks.

One note I will always remember was from an article (don't remember which one) from handloader magazine on the 45-70-405. "Once you push past black powder velocities the only thing you are doing is increasing the size of the divot on the other side of your target."

my 2 cents

GoodOlBoy

[Larry Gibson]

16-1 will hold accuracy and expand very nicely to 1600 fps. It's what I use in my own 45-70s for hunting at 1500 - 1600 fps.

Larry Gibson

[pls1911]

Larry's suggestion is about as good as it gets .

Up to this point I have always shot harder alloys and gas checked bullets with no leading and great accuracy.
Inasmuch a I have a fixed supply of linotype and babbit material, and near infinite roofing lead supply, I've been considering backing WAY down my alloy mix just to the point where bullets will still heat treat to 18-20.
As cast alloy at 10-12 bhn heat treats to 20-25 pretty easily at only 420 degrees, so I may be able to go a little more dilution.
If a combination of powder coating, gas checks, and normal lube on a soft alloy hardened up a bit with quenching out of the PC oven allows me to get to 1600-1800 fps without stripping or leading I'll be a happy camper.
I'll try this in 45-70 and 30-30 and report back with photos if i can find a good recovery medium.

[tdoor4570]

I push cast 405 that weigh 412 made out of wheel weights at 1300 fps using black powder loads. never lost a mule deer or an elk most have been bang-flop. I was using a 1884 trapdoor, now I use an 1884 dantish rolling block with the same results.

[44man]

Have to tailor the alloy for sure. Too hard and they poke a hole, too soft and you fed the deer a grenade! :holysheep I still have not done enough work with the 45-70 to get it right. I figure a hard base and a softer nose for my next hunt with it.

[pjames32]

Larry-do u recommend 16:1 for target work too, below 1500fps?
PJ

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Bullseyetom,

I use a 465gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1650fps.

The alloy is 50/50 Wheel weights/lead.

With the WFN bullet profile, expansion is not needed as that large meplat is HIGHLY EFFECTIVE!!!!!!!!

There is much info on the forums about the use of this cast bullet profile and everything I have read has been proven for me on a nice pile of deer and a couple of elk. AWESOME!

The only negative I have found was with a 355gr WFN at a muzzle velocity of just over 2300fps and the WFN is so effective the wound channel was huge!!

Choose a WFN of over 400gr at a velocity of 1400 - 1700fps and your critters will be well taken care of out to 200yds. plus.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[6pt-sika]

I used plain old air cooled WW's for the Gould 330 gr HP in a Pedersoli Sharps pushed with 5744 . The guy I loaded it for killed two deer this past year at 100-125 yards . The first one ran maybe a dozen yards and the second was DRT !

That was with plain old buckhorn type iron sights !

No Vernier sights and no straight tube period correct scope .

[JimP.]

Lyman 457125 cast with WW's, 32.0 grs RL-7. Charge case with powder, fill to overflowing with puff-lon, seat bullet, take out case mouth bell.....kill everything with it.....500 gr bullets rule...JimP.

[Wayne Smith]

The Gould boolit is the 457122 Lyman HP. I cast it in 50/50 ww/Pb and that is pretty darn close to 20-1. For original BP loads Remington used 20-1, Sharps used 16-1. For BP velocities and somewhat above these are fine alloys and will do anything you need. You won't need to coat your boolit, just lube and shoot. I'm shooting this Gould out of an Encore Katadin and my best friend is shooting it out of a Marlin.

[Cheshire Dave]

I used the Lyman 457122 cast from AC WW and 42 grains 3031 and shot a nice 3 point Blacktail this year. Lung shot went maybe 30 yards. Nose of bullet broke into large chunks at the entrance and the wadcutter left over punched on through. Will try 50-50 ww and pure this next year. Might have to back off to get the accuracy I want. I need an alloy that's not as brittle.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Dave,

Send me a P.M. with your "E" address and I can send you an image of a before and after of a 465gr that made a really hard trip for a loooong ways mostly through a big cow elk.

Haven't figured out how to post images to the forum, need a 4 year old to help, but I can do "E" mail.

Alloy as I said earlier is 50/50 - WW/lead that is water quenched. This is very likely the only bullet I'll ever retrieve from a critter and I was surprised to find this one!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[kweidner]

Any alloy you choose. A 45/70 will take anything on the NA continent. Whatever you have the most of. lol.

[44man]

You do not know how destructive a 45-70 can be on meat. It is not easy to reach a balance with the great old thing. It will be with us until a Phaser is made. To run it over 2000 fps with a soft boolit is insanity!
Reminds me of the jerk I watched hunt pheasants on public hunting areas. He shot them at the peak of rise and blew them to pieces, put them in the vest anyway. Another guy I knew hunted with a .410 and shot every pheasant in the neck or head. Never missed and I could not hunt next to him, I had to let the birds go a while with my 12 ga.
Once I found a sitting rabbit and took out the .44 Mag. I aimed at the tip of his nose and got only the hind legs, rest was GONE. Same with the 45-70. It will RUIN a deer right quick.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, Msharley sent me info to post an image, but not sure if it is going to happen.

If it comes through, I'll edit and give more info.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

It did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Mark!

The bullet is cast of 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead - water quenched - fired at a velocity of 1650fps and the cow was at about 100yds.

Started at about 465gr and the retrieved bullet is 327.9gr.

The bullet did a HUGE amount of work through heavy bone, lungs, through a huge and very full paunch a stopped just inside the hide in front of the off side hind.

Never expected to ever find one or these, and this one went a long ways on the quartering shot before it finally stopped.

Have read for many years about what it takes to penertrate a full paunch and this bullet did that and a LOT!! more before it even got there.

CDOC

[CPL Lou]

CDOC, where did you purchase your mold at ?

CPL Lou

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Even'in Lou!

Sorry to say that mold maker is no longer making molds. Think there was a change in his business situation or????

It was Bruce - BABore - on the Cast Boolits forum..

Great quality and great and informative person to talk with. He was most helpful.

I believe that Tom - Accurate Molds - could make a mold like this one and Tom makes a great product and is also knowledgeable.

My mold is a 4 cavity aluminum mold.

LBT molds - Veral Smith - are also good, but I'd give both Bruce and Tom the nod for a bit higher quality. I like their sprew plate hold downs MUCH better then the LBT version.

I did have an issue with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) bullet from LBT. The nose profile was such that it caused chambering problems. If you note the profile of the 465gr bullet shown, the line is almost straight from the meplat to the crimping groove, while the LBT had enough curve to it that it would cause chambering issues if your rifle has little to no lead before the lands begin.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Dthunter]

The Gould boolit is the 457122 Lyman HP. I cast it in 50/50 ww/Pb and that is pretty darn close to 20-1. For original BP loads Remington used 20-1, Sharps used 16-1. For BP velocities and somewhat above these are fine alloys and will do anything you need. You won't need to coat your boolit, just lube and shoot. I'm shooting this Gould out of an Encore Katadin and my best friend is shooting it out of a Marlin.

I am shooting the Katadin barrel on my Pro Hunter as well. It took a while to find the right combination for the small tube to shoot to my satisfaction! Once I figured it out, it shoots like a dream now!
I have managed to get the barrel to shoot well with my 420 grain FN ( between 1" and 1 1\4" at 100 yards). And 1475 fps average velocity.

At this velocity, and compact size/weight, the rifle is just barely comfortable/fun to shoot! She is snappy for sure!

I enjoy shooting all calibers with cast boolets, but there seems to be something distinctly magical/satisfying about the .45-70 Govt. cartridge!

I used the same 420 Grain FN to take this Bull In Northern Alberta, at about 20 feet! LOL! It was absolutely thrilling!
I shot him head on in the chest as he pushed his head through the willows into the wallow I was cow calling from. It was an instant DRT result.

The only disappointing thing about the event was I didn't recover the boolet! No real big deal really!

Hope you like the pictures!
Incidently, this was the second last hunt I ever had with my father. Cancer took him 5 years later. Rest in peace dad! We miss you!

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a629/darcytyndall1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3e926c9b.jpg (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/darcytyndall1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3e926c9b.jpg.html)

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a629/darcytyndall1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps08c23fa3.jpg (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/darcytyndall1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps08c23fa3.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I used the Lyman 457122 cast from AC WW and 42 grains 3031 and shot a nice 3 point Blacktail this year. Lung shot went maybe 30 yards. Nose of bullet broke into large chunks at the entrance and the wadcutter left over punched on through. Will try 50-50 ww and pure this next year. Might have to back off to get the accuracy I want. I need an alloy that's not as brittle.

I wouldn't consider this untypical. A bullet is much more likely to break up if the alloy owes its hardness to antimony (which is a cheaper way to make wheelweights), when a tin-hardened one, even flat but not hollow, will just become club-headed. Not that that is likely to make much difference with a deer-sized animal. But it is definitely harmful - not just a little, but VERY - with anything much larger and capable of payback.

I'd agree 20:1 lead-tin should be fine, and a little more tin wouldn't hurt, up to about 10:1 when it stops being useful.