Plumber's teflon tape - a paper patch for high vel loads?

[michiganmike]

Did that title get your attention? The idea is from an old book I own. It is titled The Art of Bullet Casting: from Handloader & Rifle magazines 1966-1981. The book is printed by Wolfe and the copyright date is 1981. This book and the Speer Reloading Manual Number Ten served as primers when I began reloading and bullet casting. Both are well read.

The The Art of Bullet Casting contains about 66 articles that covers everything from the basics to the esoteric (Fitting Bullets to Schuetzen Barrels). This book of articles helped me, a complete novice, develop a solid understanding of casting bullets. It is now dated in some respects, e.g. no personal computers, or ballistics software.

Question: What book has been your "go to" book as you learned the art of bullet casting?

Note: I really need to use the search feature before I post a question. The issue has been brought up and discussed a number of times already.

Back to the title, this article by Curtis L. Wilson conducted experiments with the 30-06, the .308, 30-30, 7X57, 45-70 and the .243. IMR 3031, BLC2 are two powders named as used in the tests. Velocities between 2,200 (30-30) and 2,820 pfs (30-06) are reported.

Mr. Wilson reported "...no leading of bores or signs of excessive pressure." He later refers to a "mirrorlike clean bore." While he refers to one load (.243, 96 gr. gas check Loverin designed Lyman bullet) yielding "good accuracy" he doesn't give the actual size of the group. He does show photos of three targets for 45-70 loads from 100 yards which appear to be between 1 and 2 MOA.

This is the only article I have read regarding the use of Teflon plumbers tape as a patch. Apparently the idea didn't take off.

Does anyone know anything more about this practice? Has anyone in this forum esxperimented with Teflon tape as a patch? I would enjoy learning more about this practice.

Thank you for your time and for reading the above,

MichiganMike

[Wolfer]

I've seen references to it before on here so I know someone has tried it. As a matter of fact I doubt there is anything that someone here hasn't tried.
Ive considered trying it but always felt it wouldent turn loose like paper does.

[MT Gianni]

It is now known that breathing melted teflon has long term health risks. I don't recall the temps necessary, but it should be easily reached by firing a cartridge. From those who have tried it accuracy was inferior to a good lube.

[NavyVet1959]

I seem to remember someone even trying aluminum foil as a "paper" patch. Don't remember how successful it was though.

[gpidaho]

Mike: I own the Wolfe pub. Art of bullet casting on DVD ROM. Great stuff there from the old timers. A "Go To" book for me is Cast Bullets for Beginner & Expert by Joseph F. Brennan Jr. available through The Cast Bullet Assoc. contributors from there the ASSRA, the THR and from here at Boolits. GP

[mrbill2]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?62-Smokeless-Paper-Patching

[leadman]

I tried many years ago and it worked but did not continue on with the experiments. I was shooting 11 bhn alloy in the rifles then and was getting leading so tried the tape. It got rid of the leading but the accuracy with the soft alloy improved only a little.

I was thinking about trying it again for my high velocity experiments with the 25-06 and 6.5-06.
I may try it in the 223Rem to see if it will improve accuracy at 3,600 fps. I am able to shoot the Lee Bator boolit at over that velocity but the accuracy is just under 3" at 100 yards with the Hi-Tek coating on them.

[GBertolet]

I have had good luck using teflon tape on round ball and rifled slugs in 12 ga shotguns. No leading at all. Of course I am only running 1300 to 1500 fps.

[Scharfschuetze]

I tried it in the early 80s with revolver ammo, mostly 38/357 and 41 calibres using 158 and 210 grain SWCs. While it worked, I didn't find it to be advantageous in handguns so I went back to the old lubrasizer. I didn't try it at any velocities over 1,000 fps, so perhaps it has some useful benefits in the high velocity regime.

And yes, I still have my copy of that tome as well as a few others from that era.


Note: I really need to use the search feature before I post a question. The issue has been brought up and discussed a number of times already.

Hey, if everyone just looked at old threads, there would be precious few new posts to read on a relaxing Saturday morning!

[45-70 Chevroner]

I have an original black powder action Sharps. It had been converted to 45-70 center fire. That barrel was some what over sized .460. I did some experimenting with Teflon tape, It took 3 raps of the tape to get it to work. It has to be raped pretty tight, or the tape will push off and bunch up a the end of the case, and the mouth of the case needs to be belled more than usual. I had pretty good luck with it as it would shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. I know that's not great but was a great improvement over what it was shooting with an unsized twice lubed with Lee liquid alox. The boolit I was using was a 320gr. HP by Lyman, it dropped from the mold at .458. That same boolit would not stay on a 5 gallon bucket at that same distance with out the tape. The main reason I did not continue to use the Teflon tape is, that it was time consuming. I ended up having a new barrel put on it. This experimenting was done back in the early 1990s. I have considered trying it with my Pedersoli Rolling block but just haven't gotten around to it.

[gwpercle]

TIP, after patching with a wrap of Teflon tape, pass it through the flame of a BIC lighter, the tape will shrink and adhere to the boolit, place the gas check on and run thru lubri-sizer.
More in depth info is shown in Clyde "snooky" Williamson's book, Winchester Lever Legacy. He applied for a Patent for his Teflon Patch on June 15, 1983. The book is still available on line and his test results were impressive when looking for high velocities with cast lead boolits. None of the boolits used were of a hard alloy or heat treated or water dropped.
He simply wraped, heat shrunk , run through a sizer to iron the patch on tightly and crimp on the gas check.
Gary

[Kansas Ed]

I've used it through the years with mixed results. Sometimes it shows better accuracy by a wide margin, sometimes no change. Sometimes it shows substantial increases in velocity, sometimes not. I have one rifle in particular that really likes it wrapped and shrunk per Snooky's instruction. I have one rifle I did a lot of testing with, that it made no difference. It's one more variable to try if you have a stubborn one you can't get to shoot.

I think the key to success though is heat shrinking it on the boolit. I can't see where you would have any kind of positive results with out doing that step.

Ed

[Bullwolf]

I conducted an experiment with Teflon tape myself using a 44 Magnum Rossi lever action rifle that had a bit of an oversize bore. I wanted to shoot a really fat boolit through the Rossi, to see if it could improve it's accuracy any. I had previously only used Teflon tape with shot shell columns.

I cast 10 .431 Lee C429-240-SWC's HP's using a high tin alloy for max diameter. (actual weight of this HP boolit cast with this alloy was around 215 grains)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52389&d=1305436976

I did not use a gas check with these mild loads. I was loading the Lee C429-240-SWC boolit over 10.0 grains of Unique. I recall using 3-4 wraps of Teflon tape to help build up the outer diameter of the boolit.

I also used a Bic Lighter to lightly flame the Teflon tape on the boolits before loading them. I read about someone else doing the same thing to keep them from unraveling during loading or firing.

I pulled one of the Teflon wrapped boolits to measure it, and was surprised at how the Teflon tape had sort of swaged itself into the lube grooves.
(wish I had taken a picture of that now)

This wasn't exactly a high stress application. I have had similar results with 44 Special using dry Molly coatings at these pressures and velocities. I only shot 10 of the wrapped Teflon tape boolits through the rifle, not very scientific or a huge data sample I know, but it worked well enough. Accuracy was as good as the J-word stuff that I shot alongside of it for comparison at 50 yards. There was no leading, or any fouling in the rifle bore after shooting the Teflon tape patched boolits.

I wanted to try this after reading about others doing so successfully. It was more of an experiment, and I was curious if it would work at all. Wrapping boolits like this is time consuming and difficult to perform, like tightly twisting a paper patch. I do not think it was worth doing all of this, for the end result.



- Bullwolf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

TIP, after patching with a wrap of Teflon tape, pass it through the flame of a BIC lighter, the tape will shrink and adhere to the boolit, place the gas check on and run thru lubri-sizer.
More in depth info is shown in Clyde "snooky" Williamson's book, Winchester Lever Legacy. He applied for a Patent for his Teflon Patch on June 15, 1983. The book is still available on line and his test results were impressive when looking for high velocities with cast lead boolits. None of the boolits used were of a hard alloy or heat treated or water dropped.
He simply wraped, heat shrunk , run through a sizer to iron the patch on tightly and crimp on the gas check.
Gary

"The Winchester Lever Legacy" is a really superb great doorstep of a book. It is easy, at first, to be fooled by the folksy style, western artifacts and anecdotes etc., but it conceals an exhaustive and thoroughly practical programme of load testing and practical experience for practically all the cartridges used in the lever Winchesters. For the shooter it is far superior to Madis's collecting and historical books. Unfortunately I don't believe it has ever been reprinted, despite the far inferior books which come and go, and it is expensive on the second-hand market.

He described the use of Teflon tape over a conventionally lubed bullet, and afterwards heated to both shrink it, and melt the lube under it. I tried it briefly in the 90s with the Portuguese 8x60R in the 1990s, with a gas check applied both before and after to the NEI 247gr. .330 bullet. (That despite the name is the true groove diameter, and I think an oversize bullet would very likely produce rupture of the tape.) Velocities were around 1700 ft.sec.

I didn't try it long enough to establish accuracy, except to establish that application under a gas check reduced it. So I am pretty sure the bullet sheds even the lube-sealed tape at least some of the time. I didn't shoot it enough to know if you can count on good accuracy, which I would put no better than with the ordinary lubed bullet. There was certainly no trace of leading, but the bullet was well fitting, hard and gas checked, so I didn't notice any without the Teflon.

One thing Williamson mentions in his patent application was the use of Teflon tape. This is quite an exciting idea, and suggests easier application and greater consistency than the tape wrapping. I believe this would provide good results, if really good tubing was available, just a little thicker than the tape was available. But I bought some Teflon tape from China, on eBay, and it is far too thick and inconsistent in thickness.

While that same Portuguese 8x60R was under development, for the single shot Guedes, the intention was for it to be patched with copper foil, in just the manner of paper. But it proved to give poor accuracy due to irregular detachment, probably due to soldering to the bullet under friction induced heat. Aluminium doesn't solder, particularly when you want it to. But I think something a bit thicker than kitchen foil would be best. Annealed soft drink can metal, which I have just measured at about .0015in., might be good. I am a long way from my guns at the moment, but if it works, you heard it here first... er, I think...

[oger]

Be real careful heating heating it, we had to wear fresh air gear when welding around anything that had Teflon in it. If I remember correctly it caused Pulmonary Edema with short term exposure and who knows about the long term.

[CastingFool]

I remember reading somewhere that Teflon gives off dangerous gasses when heated above 400º F. I doubt a Bic lighter would heat the tape to that temp. Just my nickel's worth.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, and you can shrink the wrap with substantially less heat than that. But friction in the bore is another matter. I would reserve it strictly for outdoor use where only one or two people were firing a shot or two at a time.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting thread . . . very informative!

[Artful]

Gosh, this brings back memories - when I was younger I used tape wrapped cast in shooting High Power with a Garand - worked good out to 200 yards (our longest range) but I don't know velocity as I didn't own a chronograph back then - it was RCBS 30 150 SP and Lee 170 FN for me back then. Had to remember to wrap so it tightened as was twisted by the rifling.

[454PB]

I tried it too. What I did was wrap the boolit, then size without lubing in a Lyman 450. The result looked like a normally lubed boolit with white lube. The messy part was that excess teflon was sheared off and remained on the top of the sizing die.....it had to be picked off every third boolit or so. Accuracy was not as good as the same boolit with traditional lube, and it was a very slow process.

[jhalcott]

I had very good results with Teflon tape on many calibers. Bullet SHOULD be at least Lyman #2 alloy. Teflon is not very usefull at slow velocities. It works best at higher speeds than NORMAL CAST speeds. I found the check was a cause of inaccuracy because it held the tape on the end of the bullet. I used Linotype alloy for smaller calibers (.223 and 6mm) and got in excess of 2500 fps with 1 inch groups at 100 yards. It is difficult for old fingers to roll the tape onto little bullets. Larger bullets can work very well with out the pain of taping.

[Stonecrusher]

Did that title get your attention? The idea is from an old book I own. It is titled The Art of Bullet Casting: from Handloader & Rifle magazines 1966-1981.


I got that book a few years after I started casting, it helped a lot. I too tried the Teflon tape thing. Never could keep it on the bullet through the sizing operation so I never fired one.

[.22-10-45]

I have patched .22 Bullets with Teflon tape in the Hornet & .222 Rem. with very good results..accuracy equal to best match bullet accuracy at 100yds. #2 Alloy..charges well up into jacketed bullet territory before accuracy. However, there is one very big problem with the tape..it is very delicate. If I happened to get a flier..I quickly learned to stop..and run patch thru bore..tiniest sliver of lead would usually be found on patch. If ignored and another shot fired..a bore full of lead would result. I believe the flier was caused by torn patch..leaving tiny lead particle behind. Next bullets patch would be destroyed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Perhaps even more important, the direction in which it is tightened by the rifling is the direction in which it will tend to be thrown off after leaving the muzzle, which is the best thing to have happen. If it stays in place, I can't see it not having the odd trailing fragment.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Another point to watch out for, is that it might be best avoided in ammunition intended for defensive purposes. There is no telling whether, in court, it might be made to sound like those dreadful bullets people were thought to be buying to penetrate police armour, or whether a surviving and convicted burglar with a coincidental oedema might bring an OJ Simpson style lawsuit. Even if you win, that isn't the sort of hobby you planned.

[ERADICATOR]

While under the influence of cabin fever I disassembled some 22 LR, wrapped the lead with Teflon and loaded into a 223 case with a light charge of pistol powder. I shot them off the kitchen counter out the front door and killed the pink plastic flamingo. The Teflon turned to confetti as it exited the barrel requiring a quick clean up of the floor and furniture before the wife returned home. None of this was an especially good idea. Small 22 Cal projectiles are easier held in a clamp type paper clip while wrapping.

[SniderBoomer]

I tried it. Looks good when you place in on the boolit. They seat nice in the brass.

But when I pulled some finished loads, the tape was all ripped to hell.

I don't think Teflon tape is strong enough, I abandoned the idea. Paper works for me, and nothing cleans a bore like paper does.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wouldn't it be nice if someone is reading this who could be persuaded to make thin Teflon heat-shrink tubing, a bit stouter than the tape and of consistent wall thickness? I can't see it happening just for bullets, though.