Question on Lead Fumes

[hamholfarm]

I'm getting close to having everything I need for my first casting session.


Background: I have a 40’ x 50’ x 12’ pole building that ismy shop/equipment storage. It is wood post and beam framed with steel roof andsiding. The ceiling is insulated with steel on the interior; the walls are notinsulated or sheeted on the inside. There are three personnel doors and three12’ x 12’ roll up doors. The roll up doors do not seal well.

It is cold out, about 32*F. I run a 100,000 BTU kerosenefired tube heater that brings the temp up to about the high 50’s to low 60’s.This is plenty warm enough for me with a thin sweatshirt.

Question: Could I cast inside the shop without having toworry about the lead fumes? Or am I asking for trouble?

Thanks,

Chip

[tazman]

Given the size of the room and the "ventilation" I would say you are ok. At most you may need to have a slow blowing fan a few feet away blowing at your back to keep direct fumes away from your face.
It is unlikely you will have a long enough casting session to fill the building with fumes enough to be dangerous.
I expect the fumes from the kerosene heater might be more dangerous than the lead fumes.

[Walter Laich]

if you were smelting I would think you would need to have a door or two open. Casting from clean ingots shouldn't be a problem but don't go for a marathon casting session either

[tazman]

if you were smelting I would think you would need to have a door or two open. Casting from clean ingots shouldn't be a problem but don't go for a marathon casting session either

Good point about the smelting. I didn't think about that part of the process. I always do my smelting outside or in an open doorway to keep the fumes out.

[hamholfarm]

Yeah, I'm talking about casting with clean ingots - smelting would definitely be outside.

I was thinking it would be safe, but I wanted to get the opinions of those with experience/knowledge.

Thanks for the replies.

[4719dave]

I would say your gtg my 2 cents

[303Guy]

I'd suggest having a fan blow between you and the melting/smelting pot. That way the possibility of a vortex forming in front of you drawing the fumes up into your face and trapping them there can be avoided. A strong breeze does that. I'd say the best is to have an extraction fan right behind and above the melting pot, getting those fumes out the shed altogether.

Having said that, it's not lead fumes that gets you but lead oxide dust (which may well be present in the fumes from smelting). Lead oxides may be grey, yellow or red and they don't have any smell. They are very readily absorbed through the lungs.

In my parts, lead in the blood is expected to come from lead in the work place or from casting boolits or sinkers.

I've had high blood lead!

[rintinglen]

You have far more to fear from the byproducts of combustion than lead vapors. Carbon monoxide poisoning is far more likely than lead vapor poisoning in the circumstances you describe. Lead boils at something in excess of 1700 degrees Celsius--your pot is never going to get that hot unless you chuck it in a blast furnace.

Don't eat while casting, don't drink in that vicinity, and wash your hands thoroughly when you are finished and you'll be safe. My Blood Lead Level was 6.73 when last tested.

[hamholfarm]

Unfortunately there is no way to set up an exhaust to the outside at this point in time. I would need to cut through the wall somewhere, and I'm physically not up to the task. I do have a small pedestal fan I can use.

[tazman]

That should work. Just don't get it too close to you or the lead pot. You don't want it cooling your mold/pot and you don't want it pushing the fumes up into your face.
All you need it a slight air movement. Just enough to draw/force the fumes away from you. As long as the air isn't stirred up a lot, the dust should settle out somewhere else before it gets back to you in a building that size.

[HARRYMPOPE]

You have far more to fear from the byproducts of combustion than lead vapors. Carbon monoxide poisoning is far more likely than lead vapor poisoning in the circumstances you describe. Lead boils at something in excess of 1700 degrees Celsius--your pot is never going to get that hot unless you chuck it in a blast furnace.

Don't eat while casting, don't drink in that vicinity, and wash your hands thoroughly when you are finished and you'll be safe. My Blood Lead Level was 6.73 when last tested.

yup,thats the truth of it.Best answer.

[hamholfarm]

I really appreciate all of you replying and helping me stay safe!

Chip

[Littleton Shot Maker]

FUMES... lead will warn you. after about 800/900+F it will boil- as it heats up it will smoke, THEN the LEAD 'fumes' come off--and will bond or drop out the oxygen in the room and you drop dead.

this is the extreme version of lead fumes poisoning for sure- but since so many folks want to work indoors with poor ventilation....


SMELTING lead will not make LEAD fumes at low temps 590-625f but all the other trash will burn or smoke and that will piss off the wife and the neighbors and maybe have the Fire Dept. at your place....molten lead and water do not mix. ANd of course none of it is good to breathe in.

MOST electric pot CAN NEVER get that hot- pots made for lead are topped out due to current draw - amps....

I have seen a GAS fired pot get too hot- (we let it get too low with out turing the heat down as we went) start smoking and every one in the area went running....DAD walked up to the melt pot and switched off the gas and had all of us take the rest of the day off....

yes I have been tested and Doc could see no sign of lead-
JUST don't eat, drink OR smoke while working with the stuff - use gloves - JUST for that- not for gardening and lead smelting
INDOOR shooting ( with bad venting mostly) can be the same thing- LEAD fumes comes off the primers- IF you drink, eat or smoke while shooting indoors with out washing up YOU ate the lead and inhaled the fumes.

[Blackwater]

One point about the fan, if you use one: Having it pointed at your back means it'll form an eddy that will draw any fumes from the pot right up to your face. Having it blow sideways across the pot and out the other side will most likely keep the fumes from your face much better. With it at your back, think about the eddy behind the cab of a pickup truck. The cab forces the air up and over, and this results in a vacuum just behind the rear window, and it rolls round and round just behind the rear window. Fumes do the same when you have the fan behind your back. I've found that, in my setup at least, it works slightly better to have it on my right, and blowing right. This draws air to it, creates no eddies, and keeps any fumes from reaching my face.

Also, I keep my lead on a wooden pallet in the back yard. It develops a white dust on it which I've been told is lead oxide. This stuff is to be AVOIDED, as I've also been told that handling the white powder with your bare hands is dangerous. The white powder (lead oxide) is supposed to be absorbable directly through the skin. THIS is most likely the source of most high lead levels, or at least that's what I suspect. I handled it bare handed for years before learning this. I haven't had my blood level tested, but I really ought to, if I can just remember to request it next time I get some blood drawn, just to see. If it's high, I would suspect it's that handling of the whitened lead rather than fumes.

[jmort]

You want the fan pulling away from the pot, set up behind the pot and drawing away.

[mdi]

WOW! 40x50x12? That's huge. It would be just like casting/smelting outdoors. Use common sense and just use a fan to get the "fumes" away from your face, and don't stand over the pot when fluxing (smoke). My shop is 12x10 inside and I crack the door and open a window and use a 6" fan to move the smoke. I don't even smell the pot after 10 minutes or so after the fluxing is done. The "killer" fumes are the lead vapors which only come about if the lead is much higher temperature (900+ degrees) than what we use to cast bullets (600-750 degrees).

When you ask a "safety'"question about casting, you are gonna get the extreme suggestions, many way overboard. Some will even border on "Chicken Little" thinking. Use common sense and wash up after handling lead, don't chew on a bullet while casting, don't pick up hot bullets...

FWIW; I've only been casting for 17 years and I have had a blood test for lead annually for 26 years. The lead levels in my blood were the same before and after I began casting. I have heard no reliable reports of elevated lead levels in blood attributed to casting bullets and handling fired cases (some say the lead from primers is dangerous) and as a matter of fact I know only one man to have elevated lead levels and he was a welder often welding on "School Bus Yellow" paint and he didn't cast bullets or sinkers and shot mebbe 200 rounds of factory ammo per year...

[Dusty Bannister]

Well, we have discussed the lead oxide issue, but no one mentions the chance for condensation on the metal shed roof falling into the pot creating a visit from the "tinsel fairy". As long as the inner steel panel has sufficient slope that any condensation would flow down to the sides, you probably should be OK. If the inner panel is flat, you might need to consider some kind of shield over the pot so condensed moisture can not fall into the pot. Just use appropriate caution and follow the recommended safety proceedures. Have fun. Dusty

[leadman]

Water on top of the lead just boils off. I have smelted in the rain. Have to make sure the ingot molds stay dry as pouring lead into a damp mold can cause a visit from the tinsel fairy.

I was an OSHA trained hazardous waste worker for my work. I also had an increase in my blood lead level about 6 years ago. I bought a few lead test kits to test my casting area to figure out how I was getting exposed. These kits are available from Home Depot, etc.
I tested my casting area and found lead pretty much all over it. I never did let my pot get over 750 degrees so the lead must cling to other debris when fluxing possibly.
I built a new casting area and tested the surfaces for lead before casting. I hung a piece of tested aluminum plate around my neck and started casting. With the fan behind me the plate received lead on the surface.
I found the best place for the fan (20" box fan) was in front of me and the bottom level with the top of the pot. I also had to put sides on my casting bench because I was casting in my garage roll up door space and breezes would swirl the lead fumes around me. So I ended up with a 3 sided casting area with a 20" box fan pulling the fumes away from me.
Lead does not have to boil to disperse to you and the surfaces around you.
I did have a normal lead level in about 3 months while still casting and making shot almost every day.

[303Guy]

condensation on the metal shed roof Speaking of that, keep everything in your shed covered when not in use. Condensation on surfaces facing up causes rust! The top sides rust, not the bottom.

[hamholfarm]

Good info.

My ceiling does not collect condensation and certainly does not drip.

I do have a box fan, and will put it in front of the lead casting pot, and will have it draw away from me.

I do keep all of my machines covered unless I am working with one.

All of my lead is also either covered or boxed.


Thanks again,

Chip

[pjames32]

+1 on a fan. I set mine to the side about 10" away blowing toward my exhaust fan.
PJ

[JSnover]

You have been well advised to make ingots outside, everything else inside. I'd wear more than a t-shirt, though. I try to dress light because I don't like heat but when I'm working with molten lead I wear a cotton flannel shirt, gloves, glasses, jeans and leather shoes or boots.

[bangerjim]

Good suggestions. Just have an air circ fan pulling away from you. You do not want to cool your molds or pot with direct air.

And remember to never EVER set your casting pot to over 3,180°F or you will have boiling lead! And fumes!!!!!!!


Just kidding! :-P Your pot could NEVER get that hot! You would be lucky to get it to 950-1000.

The only fumes will be from whatever you use to reduce the Sn back in. I use beeswax, but I do it outside.

Have fun casting little tiny lead pieces!

banger

[WilliamDahl]

If you are really concerned with the fumes, build yourself a "fume hood" and route the exhaust through some ductwork out the door. That should keep any lead dust contamination or fluxing fumes localized to the interior of the fume hood and wherever your exhaust ends up.

[Geezer in NH]

I cast under a hood made from a stove top hood, closed in on all sides front goes below pot top. I have made 200K+ cast boolits and RB's.

No smell in my cellar at all. My last lead blood test was below normal per my DR.

Lead s not plutonium no matter what you have read especially if you are from Califiornicatia.

[cbrick]

A tip on the fan . . . Do not set it to blow directly on the surface of the melt. The added air flow on the melt will significantly increase oxidation.

Rick

[tazman]

A tip on the fan . . . Do not set it to blow directly on the surface of the melt. The added air flow on the melt will significantly increase oxidation.

Rick

Very true.
I worked at a factory that used large lead pots as a heat source to harden hammer heads for over 40 years.
We had to use large, high volume exhaust fans to keep the lead fumes and dust away from the operators because we were working at 1500-1600 degrees F depending on the specific application.
When we would point one of the big man cooler fans at the pot 2 things would happen. The pot would lose heat more rapidly and we would get large amounts of oxide forming on the top of the lead which we had to clean off. This caused a number of problems for us which are unimportant for this discussion.
As casters we work at much lower temperatures so the lead is less volatile. It will still form an oxide though and this oxide has the ability to come off the top as dust if it is pushed hard enough by a fan(it doesn't take as much breeze as you would think since lead oxides are fairly light).
Just as cbrick said, Don't blow the fan directly on the lead pot. Also don't have the fan blowing hard. It isn't necessary. You only need enough air movement to move fumes and dust. A fan set on low that is 10 feet away should be more than enough. If you can feel any air movement on your back or shoulder at all it is enough to keep the dust away from you.

[303Guy]

build yourself a "fume hood" Now that's a good idea! Even the recirculating ones with filters would be better than nothing.


(it doesn't take as much breeze as you would think since lead oxides are fairly light).That I can attest to.

[Oreo]

I use powdered activated carbon to cover the surface of the melt in my casting pot. This reduces oxides back into the melt and serves as an oxygen barrier to prevent oxidation.

[tazman]

I use powdered activated carbon to cover the surface of the melt in my casting pot. This reduces oxides back into the melt and serves as an oxygen barrier to prevent oxidation.

That is good to know.
At the factory, we used granulated carbon/coke to do much the same thing. It was much too coarse for use on a casting pot though.
We also used a wire annealing salt of some type on top of the lead to serve as a release agent and air seal so the lead/lead oxides would not stick to the steel hammer heads. That salt was terribly corrosive and would eat through a one half inch steel plate in about 2 weeks time. It didn't effect/etch the hammers because it was never in contact more than a few minutes.I don't want to think about what it would do to a lead pot liner.

[MT Gianni]

Far more likely to have co issues from the kerosene heater than casting with an elec pot.

[mdi]

I challenge all those that fear the "Tinsel Fairy" to try this; When you're done casting, and the lead level is down, squirt the top of the melt with a spray bottle of water. No "Oh My Golly" eruptions, no "Tinsel Fairy" visits, just bubbling/evaporating water. A drop of sweat, or a runny nose, or rain from condensation dropping into the pot and causing an explosion/eruption is myth. Water has to get under the surface as a damp/wet ingot before any possible OOPS! What does happen is the scale and misc. deposits on the inside of the pot are loosened and easily removed...

[ukrifleman]

All my smelting and casting is done outside, with me upwind of the pot.

ukrifleman.

[tazman]

I challenge all those that fear the "Tinsel Fairy" to try this; When you're done casting, and the lead level is down, squirt the top of the melt with a spray bottle of water. No "Oh My Golly" eruptions, no "Tinsel Fairy" visits, just bubbling/evaporating water. A drop of sweat, or a runny nose, or rain from condensation dropping into the pot and causing an explosion/eruption is myth. Water has to get under the surface as a damp/wet ingot before any possible OOPS! What does happen is the scale and misc. deposits on the inside of the pot are loosened and easily removed...

I beg to differ.
You can get away with a mist because it doesn't have enough weight to penetrate the surface even a little bit. A drop is a different story. It dents the surface slightly in the time before it turns to steam. When it does turn to steam it expands explosively, throwing lead everywhere.
I worked with it for 40 years and I have seen water drops explode on the surface of lead and blow lead out from the pressure.
Water expands at a 1600 to 1 ratio when it turns to steam. That pressure has to go somewhere.

[Oreo]

No one is arguing the power of the steam. But a heavy rain isn't enough to cause the problem. I wouldn't tempt fate with a garden hose, but its safe to say roof condensation is not a major concern for the O.P.

[303Guy]

tazman worked with molten lead and has seen the effects of a drop of water hitting the molten lead surface. We also hear reports on this forum of drops of sweat causing an issue. Remember that the molten lead surface is not clean and shiny, it has dross on it.

[mdi]

I beg to differ.
You can get away with a mist because it doesn't have enough weight to penetrate the surface even a little bit. A drop is a different story. It dents the surface slightly in the time before it turns to steam. When it does turn to steam it expands explosively, throwing lead everywhere.
I worked with it for 40 years and I have seen water drops explode on the surface of lead and blow lead out from the pressure.
Water expands at a 1600 to 1 ratio when it turns to steam. That pressure has to go somewhere.

Out here on the western side of the nation, water drops aren't big enough to "dent the surface" of molten lead. Mebbe in Texas where everything is bigger...:mrgreen::mrgreen:

I'll alter my challenge; pour a bit of water on some molten lead (don't dump a 1/2 gallon, just a 1/2 shot). Same effect, steam and no "Tinsel Fairy".

[dondiego]

I have had the Tinsel Fairy visit when a wheel weight was introduced to the melt that must have had a little moist rust on the clip. I have also dropped water droplets on the surface of my melt and watched it jump around and sizzle until it disappeared!

[Tom W.]

When I worked at the sawmill one of my duties was to make babbitt guides for the gang saw. One of my coworkers came over to the pot, which held in excess of 200 pounds, and poured a full cup of water onto the molten metal. As he didn't get the water below the surface, all it did was steam. OTOH, a different coworker stacked about ten used and very wet plates on the side of the pot and proceeded to push them into the melt with a broom handle. The tinsel fairy showed up with a flourish!

[Leadmelter]

I have a small fan I bought at Walmart. It has a clamp and two speed settings. I put on the side of my casting station to blow across my setup which is my garage. With the door open about a foot, I can cast until temps get in the low 40's.
Ditto on the marathon casting session, I set a timer for 90 minutes.Whatever I make in that time , I am done because I have COPD and over 60.
It is a simple matter of having your equipment ready, your mind free of distractions, and some good tunes to listen to.
Good luck! You will find your rhythm and enter the Zen of casting.
Leadmelter
MI

[MtGun44]

"after about 800/900+F it will boil- as it heats up it will smoke, THEN the LEAD 'fumes' come off
--and will bond or drop out the oxygen in the room and you drop dead."

You've got to be kidding. Do you actually believe this?

Sorry, but I cannot let this obvious total misinformation just sit there unchallenged.
The boiling point of lead is in excess of 3000 degrees F, and even then "drop out the
oxygen in the room" - REALLY? Where in the world did you hear this?

None of the information is factual or even remotely near anything factual.

The most hazardous thing that I have heard from a knowledgeable expert is that
some of the arsenic compounds that can be formed in a Pb-Sn-Sb-As alloy can
be harmful if breathed. Actual vapors of metallic lead at any temperature that
we work are EXTREMELY low, like a vapor pressure of a millionth of one mm of
mercury pressure, where 760 mm of mercury is normal sea level air pressure.
So, yes you should have ventilation, but actual lead vapors is the least of your
worries. Nasty, toxic smoke from impurities from the junk that is mixed in with
scrap lead when smelting and smokes like ordinary PVC insulation on wire, and
such is the first thing, then some possible arsenic compounds.

Read rintinglen's post again a couple of times, he has the right information.

Bill

[bigdog454]

You are right on the money MtGun44, at the temp we cast at fumes from impurities caus the problems; plus if you are using a fuel other then electric, there may be concerns about proper ventilation.
BD

[wills]

All this has been explained, repeatedly. The search feature should find it.