22 hornet need more feed

[dtknowles]

I water dropped them this time.
125796

Tim

[sackot]

Can't quite see, are those the NOE 45 grain 226 PB?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

look like bators to me ;)

edited: or maybe the lyman 225438 ?

[Bzcraig]

Tim sure got creative with the picture! Very nice

[dtknowles]

Tim sure got creative with the picture! Very nice

Yeah, I got too artsy with the picture, that is a piece of lead ore (a cube of Galena) on top of the pile. They are 45 gr. NOE 226 RF plain base. A few hundred of these don't make much of a pile.

Tim

[leftiye]

Let us know how things go with your loads, please.

[dtknowles]

Let us know how things go with your loads, please.

I have to let them age a bit but I will do a range report, this is how they shot air cooled on a good day but there were other groups that did not look as good.


125821

Tim

[richhodg66]

I've been using the NOE 45 grain WFN group buy plain base in my Hornet and also the Bator. Once I get loadings figured out for each, I plan to do a day of casting with each one and then I'll probably never need to cast again for Hornet til I die, LOL. A six cavity mold creates a lot of bullets fast and with ones that small, doesn't use much lead.

[sackot]

I have the 45 226 RF in both PB and GC versions. For a while I got really poor results (target pic in this old thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?216571-NOE-226-45Gr-RF-%28BRP%29/page3), despite trying all sorts of loads. They both drop rather oversize, and I concluded that I was probably damaging them in some subtle way when sizing down.

More recently I read the suggestion on here to lube prior to sizing, so I cast with the GC mould (which drops slightly smaller of the two), placed checks, hand lubed, then sized down in two stages. The results were much improved:


125909

Note that it's only at 50yd, so not as good as it looks. The first shot was cold bore, after cleaning.

It still doesn't work better in my Hornet than the 225107, though, so with the extra sizing effort required it will probably stay on the shelf.

I've also just been testing the NOE WFN 45, gas checked, and initial results were quite promising, upper left group:

125911

I know the overall group is not great, but the first shot was the usual cold bore flyer, 2 was the first in the cloverleaf, 3 and 4 appeared to have no effect and I thought I might be missing the paper, until 5 opened the group a tad. Then 8,9,10 blew the group apart.

Now, I might just being fooled by randomness, but my normal CB Hornet groups with loads that work seem to be 1.5MOA but with a few flyers, whereas this one appeared to be really trying to go sub-MOA, but still with flyers. I always assume that when I finally get to the bottom of the flyers all will be perfect. Don't know whether it's my shooting, lube, or casting/loading technique.

[dtknowles]

I have the 45 226 RF in both PB and GC versions. For a while I got really poor results (target pic in this old thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?216571-NOE-226-45Gr-RF-%28BRP%29/page3), despite trying all sorts of loads. They both drop rather oversize, and I concluded that I was probably damaging them in some subtle way when sizing down.

More recently I read the suggestion on here to lube prior to sizing, so I cast with the GC mould (which drops slightly smaller of the two), placed checks, hand lubed, then sized down in two stages. The results were much improved:


125909

Note that it's only at 50yd, so not as good as it looks. The first shot was cold bore, after cleaning.

It still doesn't work better in my Hornet than the 225107, though, so with the extra sizing effort required it will probably stay on the shelf.

I've also just been testing the NOE WFN 45, gas checked, and initial results were quite promising, upper left group:

125911

I know the overall group is not great, but the first shot was the usual cold bore flyer, 2 was the first in the cloverleaf, 3 and 4 appeared to have no effect and I thought I might be missing the paper, until 5 opened the group a tad. Then 8,9,10 blew the group apart.

Now, I might just being fooled by randomness, but my normal CB Hornet groups with loads that work seem to be 1.5MOA but with a few flyers, whereas this one appeared to be really trying to go sub-MOA, but still with flyers. I always assume that when I finally get to the bottom of the flyers all will be perfect. Don't know whether it's my shooting, lube, or casting/loading technique.

What are you shooting these from? I tried shooting them as cast and they do alright that way as well but I too get flyers. How hard to you push them, I have been keeping them under 1800 fps since they are plain base. My rifle does not even shoot jacketed bullets under 1 MOA. I like using them unsized, with thrown charges with neck sized brass, they still mostly are under 2 MOA and are quick and easy to load. Almost as good as expensive target .22 LR but with more FPS and bullet.

Tim

[leftiye]

Sackot, What with the cold flyer, then nice accuracy, then the last three blowing the group, I gotta ask - what lube are you using? Really sounds like bore condition degrading.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

25-20 WCF is very finicky about too much lube. Cold bore fliers and lube build up during shot string can reek havoc.
Most simple cure in most cases is to lube lightly with thinned LLA.

Be worth a try with the Hornet to see if lube purging is a trait in casting for small bore cals.

[sackot]

@Tim, it's a venerable Anschutz 1730 with 16 twist. It came to me with a lot of barrel pitting, which might limit the potential. The chamber is quite tight, I would not be able to chamber my bullets as cast, so you must either have a bigger neck or smaller bullets. I seem not to have written it down, but ISTR I was getting a little less than .228 with the gas check version, and more than .228 from the PB. My old 1730 is also an honest to goodness .223 bore, so no need to go too big with the bullets. I tried two load ranges, light and middling. The ones on the hand-drawn target had 2gr Red Dot, I think they were barely supersonic. The middling range was with 5.4gr 2400. It was intended as a starting load and gave 1420fps, but this was before I tried the two stage resizing and the results were so poor I never went further. I see from my notes that I also got true subs with 1.8 of TrailBoss.

@Leftiye, the interesting group was hand lubed with a Lithibee I've just made, first outing. My Lyman 450 is getting low on Felix lube, and I was trying to decide whether to make more to top it up, or clean it out and try this Lithibee for a bit. Recipe was 1,2,1 of Castrol LM grease, microwax, and beeswax. I get the cold bore flyer with Felix, though, no different.

@LtFrank, when I started I used (non-thinned) LLA for everything, but three of four of the groups on my target pic with 45 WFN and 225107 will have been over 2000fps, and I didn't have good luck with LLA once I started pushing the velocity (still sometimes use it for the lower end). I did take good note from Tim's target picture that he is only lubing the lower groove, not both, so I will bear your comment in mind and try with less lube when I get the chance.

I'll hand lube another batch of bullets and, if the wind ever goes down (26kt gusting 38 as I write) will find out whether I've just been given false hope by a statistical fluke.

[dtknowles]

I did not measure the current batch that I just cast with a new alloy and water dropped but the ones I did measure were between 0.226" and 0.227". I loaded some of the new batch unsized and sized to 0.225 with a push thru Lyman 310 die. This die seems to size them more uniformly than my Lyman 450.

When I first got the mould I cast some bullets and I was surprised that I got a finger snug fit in a fired case so I loaded some unsized in unsized cases. It turns out that I only had a small lot of cases that would let me do that the rest the necks were too big and had to be at least neck sized to hold the bullets. I would guess my chamber is bigger than yours. I have been getting away with neck size only since then.

I have tried everything from 2.8 gr to 3.5 gr. of Green Dot with this bullet but have not tried different powders though I have many that would work. The ones I loaded today have 3.0 gr. I try to keep them supersonic all the way to 100 yards.

Tim

[TCFAN]

I have all 3 of the Noe 22 cal. molds that have been mentioned. All of mine are gas check molds and my favorite is the 225107 which from my mold using 9 parts of COWW to 1 part of linotype weighs 40 grs. ready to shoot.They are lubed and gas check in a Lyman 450 with a .228 die.Then they are sized .225 in a Lee push through die.
I am using 2.5grs of Bullseye and a Tula small pistol primer. This is in a 218 Bee 22 inch barrel Encore.This load gives 1300 fps. 10 feet from the muzzle. It will shoot 5 shots on a nickel at 25 yards and stay on a quarter at 65 yards.At 100 yards this load will hit a life size prairie dog steel swinger every time.It is sure death on squirrels.This boolit at 1300 fps does no damage to my 1/5 scale steel silhouette targets at 65 yards.It is a very fun load.
I have done some work with the 225-45 WFN in the Bee using IMR 4198.It looks pretty good but I have more work to do and several other powders to try..Did kill 2 skunks with the WFN using the 4198 load at about 2000 fps.
22 cal. cast is a lot of fun in a Hornet or Bee.........Terry

[10x]

I would start with a load of 2.5 grains of Unique, Lube the bullets in a ziplock bag with a pea sized drop of Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50/50 with Brake Kleen®.
Also start by seeing i they will chamber in as cast diameter and only size them just enough so the loaded cartridge will chamber with finger pressure.

I shoot a 37 grain NOE plain base bullet in both Hornet and 223 and this load will give jagged one hole group at 25 yards in both calibers.
If I had to size these bullets I would do the diluted Lee Liquid Alox treatment before and after sizing.
Keep in mind at low speeds it does not take much Lee Liquid Alox to prevent leading. My bullets have an extremely thin layer. Also the second lube after sizing takes less Lee Liquid Alox.
With any plain base cast bullet I have noticed that low velocity loads are usually accurate and (depending on alloy, bore diameter, and rifling) there is a speed limit where groups will open up.

[dtknowles]

Shot the new reloads (water dropped bullets) this afternoon.

Shot my smallest cast bullet group ever. First under an inch at 100 yards, too bad the average for todays outing was right at 2 MOA for five groups.

The good

126128

The Bad

126129

The Ugly, I think a wind shift got me

126130

Tim

[45-70 Chevroner]

Yeah, I got too artsy with the picture, that is a piece of lead ore (a cube of Galena) on top of the pile. They are 45 gr. NOE 226 RF plain base. A few hundred of these don't make much of a pile.

Tim
In a picture they look like quite a pile, but a different perspective in the real.