I need Help Deciding

[Bzcraig]

I know nobody here is opinionated so this is an appeal for opinions! :bigsmyl2:

A little background, got my wife interested in shooting pistol this year. The range we used was a pistol only range but that's a separate story. We joined another range this past weekend so I took some rifles out to shoot. I purposely took a scoped 22 for my wife and daughter to shoot, yeah almost evil, slowly sucking them into the web. Well, they both really liked it, problem is they are both recoil sensitive and I can't reload it. I took my AR and neither was interested in shooting it nor the 336 In 30-30. I'm thinking about a 22 centerfire and thought a Hornet (which I thought would perfect for them both and be fun) then read the brass doesn't last long. I have read about 221 Fireball, 204 Ruger, etc, etc. I then read about the K Hornet and really would enjoy shooting it myself. So how hard is it to ream a chamber or how easy is it to mess it up? Was thinking about the CZ 527. Failing that my next choice would be 222 Remington but I have no idea what that recoil would be akin to. Though I don't know for sure, I think the wife would be uncomfortable with a 223 bolt gun. BTW, didn't post in the gunsmithing forum thinking I would get limited feedback.

[jabo52521]

Try low powered 30/30 rounds.

[454PB]

With my .222 Remington, recoil is barely noticeable, AND you can use reduced loads. However, a .223 offers tons of cheap or even free brass.

[wv109323]

I don't think a .223 full size rifle would be objectionable on recoil. I think it is the noise rather than the recoil with the AR.

[Menner]

I have a Rem 700 in 204 and the nice thing about the 204 is once you get them there you can run it up to around 4000 fps and still have very little recoil last time I shot it on the bench it shot 7/8" at 200 yards 5 shot group
likes 26.5 A2015 and 32gr zmax bullets
Tony

[starmac]

223 brass makes good 222 brass too. lol

I like the idea of the 22 k hornet, but have no experience in how easy it is to do or screw up.
I would think you could down load any of the three to where they would like them. I never noticed them having any recoil to speak of, but everybody is different.
I know my wife does not like recoil either, but I loaded some light 45 colt loads, and thought I was going to lose my rifle. lol

[Plate plinker]

Muzzle brake? Buy a muzzle brake for your ar.

[RP]

Two fast and easy ways to tame recoil. 1 make sure you have a good pad on the stock or one that will take some of the recoil away. 2 Add weight to the gun. For a plastic stock most are hollow just dump some shot in and pack it with paper to keep it from rolling around. Wood stocks you will have to drill to make a void for the shot or even a lead plug. A lot of the guys that shoot skeet weight their shotguns this way just to keep the beating down. Hope this helps.

[RickinTN]

I would lean toward a 222 or 223 bolt rifle. As already mentioned recoil with a 223 bolt rifle is barely noticeable. It probably is the muzzle blast they are having a problem with. Both the 222 and 223 are easily loaded down if need be and if using a little faster than normal powder to do so you also reduce the blast considerably. One of my favorite loads in one of my bolt action 223's is 15.5 grains IMR4227 with a 55 grain jacketed bullet. Report is about like a 22 WMR and recoil is almost non-existent.
Good Luck,
Rick

[country gent]

A 223s recoil isnt hard to control the added blast crack is. A 222 isnt going to be a lot lighter and the crack is still there. A hornet is a sweet low noise level rifle as is the K version. A 218 bee falls into this catagory also. Look for rounds with light bullets and lower velocity. Wifes and daughters art normaly happy with the heavier rifles either. If you handload a light wieght cast bullet load for 223 222 then blast and recoil can be tamed. Its easy to load the hornet rounds to approximate 22 lr or a pellet gun on up. Good hearing protection electronics if possible and maybe plugs underneath help alot with the blasts. A mild mannered loading is a big plus. As far as reaming the hornet to K hornet as to tools a proper reamer headspace gage and tap wrench and extension along with some good cutting oil are needed, Now heres the But It has to be done right and accuratly. to deep and you cant fire hornets to blow out in the gun the have to be necked up and sized down leaving a false shoulder to fire form. I doubt a gunsmith would charge alot to do this conversion if it is all you wanted done. Loaded correctly and carefully with lighter loads hornet brass life isnt so bad. If you have a loading manual look thru it for ideas. Hornady was loading the 17 hornet ( a hornet necked down to 17 caliber), only 25grn bullets or so. Theres alot of diffrent thoughts on this. Another good way is to borrow rifles in diffrent calibers at the range and see what they and like can handle. Dont be surprised if after some time they dont want more gun.

[hithard]

I would lean toward a 222 or 223 bolt rifle. As already mentioned recoil with a 223 bolt rifle is barely noticeable. It probably is the muzzle blast they are having a problem with. Both the 222 and 223 are easily loaded down if need be and if using a little faster than normal powder to do so you also reduce the blast considerably. One of my favorite loads in one of my bolt action 223's is 15.5 grains IMR4227 with a 55 grain jacketed bullet. Report is about like a 22 WMR and recoil is almost non-existent.
Good Luck,
Rick

This is the way to go....reduced loads, and you could cast them as well. I like a 36gr. from Mid South on top of a little 800x. Sounds softer than my ruger 10/22. Everything about going this way echoes cheap cheap cheap...And it has to be the easiest brass to get a hold of. Not to mention with the reduced loads you can go with pistol primers, sure they are a bit shallower than rifle but I have never had a problem with them in any of my five 223 rifles.

[MaryB]

I have bad shoulders and the recoil from a .223 is very manageable as is. That was in my savage Axis bolt gun. In my AR it is next to nothing, noise is handled by good hearing protection they should be wearing already

[Bad Water Bill]

Try a 221 fireball and see how they like it.

If they like it you may have some work to do BUT 223 brass works down to the fireball in a couple of steps and the girls need something to do on a cold winter night[smilie=s:

Yes there are ???? rounds with 223 headstamps that shoot great out of my 221 Fireball Savage rifle.

[Wayne Smith]

Methinks you are a guy who likes to tinker and make things? You need to look at your existing skill set, experience in handling metal, and established ability to do precision work in metal. Reaming a chamber is not a simple thing to do and you only get one chance unless you are equipped to remove the barrel and set it back - do you have a metal lathe and know how to use it?

[jcwit]

I reload a Lee cast lead bullet gas checked at 113 gr. with 12 grains of Trail Boss. Light recoil, light report, plinking accurate at .22 rim fire ranges as in minute of tin can.

Plus with this light of a load I only need to neck size.

[jlucke69]

First, I think you will have a hard time comparing a 22 to center fire. No recoil, no muzzle blast and the ability to get much lighter weight guns. Ammo may be hard to find at the moment, but it is loosening up. If you decide to go center fire, I would go another direction entirely. Look at a 357 lever action or bolt and load 38 specials in it. Good luck on the decision.

[6bg6ga]

My wife doesn't like recoil either. Recent history with her had us buying a Remington in 243. She put about 5 rounds thru it and ended up selling it. She does like the 5.56. The gun she has fallen in love with is a 45acp carbine. Its a High Point. Its cost effective because I shoot 3 1911's so ammo isn't a problem. She is my little sniper now because she will sit down at the bench with her carbine and blast away at targets on the 100 yard mark. The little carbine was the best investment I could have made because its cost effective around $300 with tax.

[petroid]

Why do you not think she would like a 22 bolt gun? Is it because of the blast of the 223, or the weight of the gun? I, like others, think that with the availability of brass, projectiles, and/or moulds, that it would be very easy to load a 223 down to 22 WMR, 22 Hornet, 22 K Hornet, with little to no blast or recoil until she becomes more comfortable and can work up to hotter loads. That said, she may never develop the interest in shooting anything more powerful than a 22, and may decide that shooting is not for her. I know my wife showed some interest in shooting, and I just got her her own gun (the one she wanted). Now if I ask her if she wants to go shooting, she just shrugs and says "nah". I would seriously gauge her interest before plunking down hard-earned money for a gun she may or may not want to use.

[freebullet]

Sims recoil pad! Worth every penny.

[historicfirearms]

How about a pistol caliber carbine? They are fun to shoot and easy to reload. Don't laugh, but the Uzi semi auto carbine is really fun to shoot. They are a little heavy for shooting offhand for small people, but shooting from the bench is fine. I would get one with the wooden stock for shooting comfort. Brass is cheap or free, shoots boolits just great, reasonably accurate, reliable, simple, and did I mention fun? Other rifles to consider are the Hi Point carbines, AR 9mm, and any of the lever action pistol caliber rifles.

[Fishman]

I agree with those saying the least expensive option is reduced loads in your 336. They will probably hit high so a scope or Williams peep is nice. I like the peep myself. That is how I got started with cast in rifles. This approach makes all guns shootable at least for most folks. And low low muzzle blast compared to .223.

[Thumbcocker]

Lee soup can in .30-30 with 5-6 grains of red dot. Zero recoil no need for gas checks. Also size 0 buckshot rolled in liquid lube over 3 grns of red dot.

[dakotashooter2]

I just started shooting cast out of my "94". Low recoil and low noise.
I've heard the Hornet brass is thin and that you lose more to crushed cases when trying to load, than case stretching or other problems. There is the 218 Bee if you want to dish out about a grand for a rifle. Have you considered one of the 17 caliber center fires?
I think a big consideration right now is going to be the availability of brass. Something readily available is going to be your best bet.
I believe if 22 rimfire ammo remains in short supply and high in price that we may see a revival of some of the small 22 centerfire rounds and maybe even some new ones.

[gray wolf]

Hello my friend, just a little info.
Some years ago--about 15 actually, I had a Ruger bolt gun in the 22 Hornet.
I used Lee Dies and for seating I had a Forester Seating die ( very nice BTW )
I loaded many, many, rounds for the Hornet and enjoyed shooting it very much.

Lil-Gun powder was excellent and extremely accurate, about 12 grains or almost a case full to the top got the job done just fine.

It was a very fun rifle to shoot with little to hardly any recoil.
I didn't abuse my cases and had very , very, little problems with case life.

I wouldn't be afraid to give the Hornet a go.

PS

Hope all is well with you and thank you for being so kind to Julie and I,
God bless and keep

Sam

[blackthorn]

If you are concerned with case-life in the Hornet, consider that the K-Hornet is a blown out version of the parent standard Hornet. I would think case-life in the K-Hornet would be just as "iff'y" (or worse). I do not and have never had a K-Hornet but I do have two standard Hornets. I have not shot them much but my brass has not been a particular problem.

[joesig]

If you get a .221 Fireball, you'll have to get three or you will all be fighting over it. Accurate. Brass is easy to make and can be found. Not far behind a .223 with max loads. Works great with cast and H335. Almost a 22LR with the 33GR TNT or Midway equivalents and some Unique or Red Dot. Even in a light gun with full loads you can spot your shots through the scope.

To take to the range tomorrow I agree with Thumbcocker (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?3838-Thumbcocker). I doubt the roundball will feed in the 30-30 but it is right there with a 22LR.

[Thumbcocker]

Round balls feed fine in .30-30 if seated to the equator. Use unsized brass, decap, reprime, flare slightly, charge, seat and crimp. Mrs, Thumbcocker can go through a quart bag of these loads in record time. Over 2000 shots to the pound.

[762 shooter]

I did this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?238305-My-Economical-Reloadable-22LR-Substitute

Very little recoil. Decent accuracy with a little work.

762

[MtGun44]

Load some mouse fart loads in .30-30 with a 100-120 grain cast, something like
5 or 6 gr of Red Dot or Unique and you will have them smiling, and it will be cheap
and easy.

Bill

[bear67]

First, I will admit Mama Bear is not recoil sensitive, but she can keep me busy supplying ammo for all the pistol caliber carbines and levers. Both she and the grandkids think the "UGLY" HiPoint 9mm is great fun on steel targets, but they shoot the Camp 45 and levers in 38spl and 45 Colt with equal gusto.

As to 22 Hornet, I have loaded them since 1959 and probably only wrinkled/folded maybe 3 cases in that time--and no telling how many times they were reloaded. I have a Rem 722 bolt that we converted back in the 60s to hornet (just about shot the barrel out of this one and time to re-barrel) loads, even though it prefers jacketed over home rolled cast bullets. Lots of prairie dogs, coyotes, and ground squirrels accounted for in the last 35 years. Loaded light, the Hornet is quieter than a HV 22rf.

I did own a K Hornet some time back, just never fell in love with it although I may still have the dies and a little brass.

Advice from a very married man of 47 years--get your wife shooting with you and you will have much more time for enjoying your addiction--I mean avocation--I mean hobby.

[bear67]

Forgot, My favorite Hornet is a Ruger #3. Great center fire for beginners and has taken several deer with a hot hollow point load for the under 12 year old crowd in the family and neighborhood.

[DCM]

My knee jerk reaction was the 223, low recoil, cheap and readily available.
NO to muzzle brakes, Noisemakers that induce a flinch on a rifle.
I put one on a 257 once to eliminate the "recoil", we ALL jumped due to the NOISE instead! Kissed that thing goodbye!

The gallery loads out of current fodder make the most sense to me especially if you cast your own.

[Bzcraig]

Methinks you are a guy who likes to tinker and make things? You need to look at your existing skill set, experience in handling metal, and established ability to do precision work in metal. Reaming a chamber is not a simple thing to do and you only get one chance unless you are equipped to remove the barrel and set it back - do you have a metal lathe and know how to use it?

Contractor by trade so 'yes' I enjoy tinkering and trying new things. I have just enough smarts to get me in trouble but generally know someone to bail me out when I get in over my head. In the case of gunsmithing I don't have that cushion. No, don't have a lathe and don't know how to use one.

[Bzcraig]

I appreciate all the input folks. I have to admit (as painful as it is) I hadn't given any thought to downloading a 223 as my frame of reference was the AR. I had some 30-30 loaded with the Lee 113gr soup can with 9grs of Trailboss that was soft as a 22mag. Couldn't talk the wife into trying it because she thinks the lever is to awkward to operate and a 30-30 bolt gun just doesn't seem right to me. Here's where I'm at to this point. 1) It needs to be a bolt gun I can reload for. 2) Just in case she doesn't like it, I need to. 3) In order to minimize initial cost it should be in a caliber I already load. I already load 223 and have all the components I need, it can be downloaded with next to no recoil, and bolt guns in 223 are plentiful. I looked at the Ruger American Ranch Gun which caught my eye. It's light but like RP mentioned I can add weight to the stock easily as its plastic. It could easily be a 2/300 yard gun for her if she wants, it has a 16" threaded barrel which I like and I haven't yet heard a disparaging word about the Americans. Best news is none of this needs to happen any time soon.

[jmort]

Sounds like a plan.

[MaryB]

Savage Axis II in .223, extremely accurate out of the box, this was 2 shots at 100 yards then I moved an inch right for 2 more because I forgot my spotting scope. 50 grain V-max over CFE223, my prairie dog load that I managed a 550 yard shot with this summer.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/2014-01-06_23-08-01_101_zps8cd7af2b.jpg


I appreciate all the input folks. I have to admit (as painful as it is) I hadn't given any thought to downloading a 223 as my frame of reference was the AR. I had some 30-30 loaded with the Lee 113gr soup can with 9grs of Trailboss that was soft as a 22mag. Couldn't talk the wife into trying it because she thinks the lever is to awkward to operate and a 30-30 bolt gun just doesn't seem right to me. Here's where I'm at to this point. 1) It needs to be a bolt gun I can reload for. 2) Just in case she doesn't like it, I need to. 3) In order to minimize initial cost it should be in a caliber I already load. I already load 223 and have all the components I need, it can be downloaded with next to no recoil, and bolt guns in 223 are plentiful. I looked at the Ruger American Ranch Gun which caught my eye. It's light but like RP mentioned I can add weight to the stock easily as its plastic. It could easily be a 2/300 yard gun for her if she wants, it has a 16" threaded barrel which I like and I haven't yet heard a disparaging word about the Americans. Best news is none of this needs to happen any time soon.

[Bzcraig]

MaryB....I'm guessing you like the CFE223? I had wondered about it but hadn't heard much. Any down side?

[MaryB]

I haven't ran into it but some have reported temperature changes affecting it. Yes I love it, accurate, clean, seems to have a sweet spot load that will run across multiple rifles(my AR likes this same load as does a friends Ruger Mini 14). Meters really well too. My dealer just got in some 8 pound jugs and I hope he sets one aside for me to pick up in Feb. Now that I have an AR I need to reload more to feed it!

[garym1a2]

If they both really like the 22LR, why not let them shoot what they like?

[Blacksmith]

Think about a T/C Contender or Encore in the rifle configuration. You can get barrels in almost any caliber including .22 K-Hornet, and if they don't like it just get a different barrel. Nice accurate and a lot of fun.
Here is a list of custom calibers:
For Contender:
http://www.bullberry.com/contender_barrels.html
For Encore:
http://www.bullberry.com/encore_barrels.html