Multiple ball loads with 38/357 44spl/mag 45colt

[Bazoo]

In some of my readings on old cartridges I came across a description of an old factory loading in 45 colt for 3 round balls, placed one atop the other, with the end ball being crimped at the circumference. It stated them as being very rare and a real treasure to have in your collection.

Does anyone have any info, data, ideas about making them? For me it would be in 38 and 357.

No particular reason, just be neat to play with and sort of nostalgic.

[Foto Joe]

Keep in mind that what you were reading about were Black Powder cartridges and if I recall they were called "Grape-Shot" loads, doing this with smokeless could put you in the category of "Crash Test Dummy".

I've loaded a BUNCH of .454 round balls into 45 Colt Gallery Loads over the years and I have stuffed two RB's into numerous 45 Colt brass. The charge was 20gr of compressed 3f Goex or Swiss. Recoil is relatively light even with two (280gr total) RB's but velocity is pretty slow, velocity really picks up with only one RB. If you're not able or willing to use Black Powder then you might consider using something like #6 shot on top of a gas check lightly seated on top of Trailboss with another gas check on the end of the brass to hold it all together.

[dudel]

I've done some of those.

First type was using 357 Mag cases, I'll take round ball of suitable size and pass it though the sizer. The turns them from round to an oval with flat sizes. The flats help engage the rifling (at least that was my thought). Based on how many of these "round" ball projectiles I'm loading (2 or 3) I take their total weight to get to a starting load from the manuals. They are a pain to load. They also need a good roll crimp. I shoot these loads out of a Contender or a Handi, so I've no idea how they would work in a wheelgun.

Second type used 38 Spl brass and #9 shot harvested from shotshells (to keep from having to buy 25# of shot). The load was powder, overwad card, shot, another overwad card and a good roll crimp. I've shot these in Contenders, Handi and snubbies.

All were interesting experiments. The roundball loads printed pretty close to each other out to about 20' IIRC. The shotshell patterns opened up pretty fast. A good snake round, but not much else.

[Bushrat]

Tripple 0 buck will be about right for thr 38-357 loads, still a good idea to squish them flat on the ends.

[LAGS]

I load 3 - #1 buck balls in a Speer Plastic shot capsule for my .38/.357's
You use a standard 158gr cast bullet load for the powder .
They are pretty accurate out to 15 feet.
I wouldnt call them a HD round as they are not like buckshot out of a shotgun.
But my Ex kept her .38 snubby loaded with them, so she had a better chance of hitting a burgler in the dark.

[WHITETAIL]

Do not quote me on this but, years ago they were called Pawn Shop loads.:holysheep

[MarkP]

I have used the Lyman 358101 they are short 77 gr wadcutters and are about 0.300" in length.

Can fit (3) in a 357 or (2) in 38 SPL. Surprisingly deep penetration into wet phone books on par wth a 158 FN, and nasty entrance damage on the face of the phone books. Entrance holes were about 1.5" dia and 1" deep, like an inverted hemishere, similar to an ice cream scoop into a new box of ice cream. Shot these out of J frame Smiths at 20 ft.

[dudel]

I have used the Lyman 358101 they are short 77 gr wadcutters and are about 0.300" in length.

Hmmm. That makes me wonder about taking a wad cutter and cutting it into three sections, running them through the sizer to get them back in round, and loading the result. I have a Lee TL WC for 38spl. Since I load them flush with the case mouth, I could get three projectiles into it. Thanks for the idea.

[dondiego]

Hmmm. That makes me wonder about taking a wad cutter and cutting it into three sections, running them through the sizer to get them back in round, and loading the result. I have a Lee TL WC for 38spl. Since I load them flush with the case mouth, I could get three projectiles into it. Thanks for the idea.

That would be similar to the wafers in the Winchester .410 self defense loads.

[dondiego]

There is a good article written on this subject in the Sept./Oct. 2010 American Handgunner Magazine titled " Buck and Ball" by Mike Venturino if you can access it.

[dudel]

There is a good article written on this subject in the Sept./Oct. 2010 American Handgunner Magazine titled " Buck and Ball" by Mike Venturino if you can access it.

Thanks DD. Found it at http://americanhandgunner.com/2010-articles/ Select the article, and download the PDF. Interesting.

[dakotashooter2]

Hmmm. That makes me wonder about taking a wad cutter and cutting it into three sections, running them through the sizer to get them back in round, and loading the result. I have a Lee TL WC for 38spl. Since I load them flush with the case mouth, I could get three projectiles into it. Thanks for the idea.

Lyman 358101 75 gr wadcutter......... Could load at least 2 in a case.......

[Bored1]

Here's an article written by Beagle over at castpics.

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/91-round-ball-loads

[jcren]

Out of curiosity, would a thick felt wad between 2 balls increase the "scatter"? Anyone tried or do I get go hunting for some RB?

[leebuilder]

They have made them for rifles too. Guard loads they were called. I made some with .330 buck shot swaged to . 309 in 3030, because of the long neck. 5gr of Unique. At fifty meters the first would hit a six inch bull the other some were out side the bull.
Good enough for pests.

[patrick_sween]

Can't remember which edition it's in, but ABC's of Reloading with Dean Grennel had a long article about multi-ball loads. If I remember right he used RBs, and also some stacked short wadcutters. He had holed drilled in a piece of plate at bore diameter, then used a bench vise to press buckshot into them to make the wafer type wadcutters. He did 2 in 38s, 3 in .357s and even went to 4 in .357 Max. Load data was in there with it, will see if I can find the article.

Patrick

[Bazoo]

Nice info thus far, Thanks.

[JSnover]

I tried years ago with a 6" .357. They shot pretty well but tended to split cases. I don't remember the load data, it came from one of the gun rags in the early 90s.

[tsubaki]

I've had great results on snakes in the shot capsules with #8 shot in the 38spl (96.4gr) with 5.5gr of Unique and in the 44spl (129.5gr) with 7.2gr of Unique. Average spread is 1" per foot of distance from target.
Thought I'd try 3 #1 buckshot using 3.5gr of Bullseye with the 10 or so remaining 38 capsules I had from 20 years ago but the results were inconclusive.
Consequently it ended up being cheaper to purchase loaded shotgun shells and cut them open instead of buying the shot.
Before I could determine if the 3 #1 bucks were lining up behind each other or scattering wildly at 15 yards I found the recoil with a full cylinder would bust the ends off the plastic capsule.
I probably need to add wads between them or maybe buffering from out of the buckshot hull. I may can make wads from thick paper with a paper punch, gotta see which performs better.

[C. Latch]

How many could you safely fit in a .444 Marlin hull?

[leadman]

444 Marlin might cause a problem due to the taper of the case unless a base wad of some type was used. It would have to be compressible so it didn't build too much pressure trying to exit the case.

[tsubaki]

An older gentleman gave me some of the methods and data he was using but I've not yet tried.
Basically he suggested using the same data for cast bullets by weight with a little bit of common sense.
He suggested making a wad from a paper or styrofoam plate by chamfering and deburing the case to be very sharp. Pressing the wad material between the primed/charged/unflared case and a hard surface held beneath the die. Basically hole punching the wad to the internal diameter of the case. Then do the same with the oversized ball(s), shaving the sides and stopping about when the center of the ball is at the top of the case.
In the case of the .444 you would expect to use (2) .433 round balls which would be the approximate equivalent of 244gr but slightly shaved say with between 12-17gr of Unique.

[rintinglen]

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I have played around extensively with such loads. The first pic shows some 358-101 and 358-345 multi ball loads the second picture is the result of 6 3 boolit loads fired at a target. The third is a picture of a 44 mag 3 boolit load using 110 grain WC's and the 4th is a picture of the result of firing 10 3-boolit shots from a 44 magnum. These loads are not very accurate, but boy do they pack a wallop. Most commonly, you get two boolits almost touching and one an inch or two out at 7 yards. Frequently, you'll have two in the same hole.

[Harter66]

I did 4 00B on a Colts case a couple of yr ago . I also did 3 and 2 in 357 and 38.
I have an aircraft rivet squeezer ,so I squashed the 00B to 454 and 360 . The load data was loosely for a heavy bullet in 45 AR/ACP and a 148 WC in the 38 while the 147 in 9mm seemed prudent for the 357.

The biggest 2 things is that no matter what shape the balls are THEY MUST BE TOUCHING IN THE CASE. If not they act like an obstuction. 2nd it's not about how much they weigh it about how much space they occupy. The 00B is about 70 gr per ball and that is close to a 148 WC so the 38 was safe ,210 gr in a 357 we'll there's nothing to compare it to except old Speer data for 200 gr deep seated 200 gr SIL bullet so I opted for data for a smaller case an heavy for cart bullet it may have been start data for the Colts new police or 38/200 old low pressure cartridges on size pare with 9mm . The 45 Colts were from 255 Data for ACP I think and at 280 gr or so left a little margin in that Blackhawk.

The 2 ball 38s hit within 3 in at 10 yd ,the 3 ball 357 made about 2.5 in triangle while the 45 made about a 3 x5 diamond. I lubed the "grooves" left by the edges with Darrs. All 3 loads clocked about 600 fps.

[Bazoo]

Interesting results. I dont have any suitable moulds at present, but am looking for some now. I like the short wadcutter idea better than the balls as it would afford easier sizing and loading, and allow lubing.

[Harter66]

The Colts look like this.

127406

[olafhardt]

I am looking at a box of 410 Federal handgun ammo. It says they contain 4 000 buckshot at 850 fps. These are 2.5 inch loads. I haven't shot any out of my Savage 24.