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View Full Version : What type of boolit starter do you use?



Dixiejack
12-29-2014, 08:53 AM
I'm having a ML target rifle built and will be shooting greased cast boolits. I have been trying to find a boolit starter that will keep the boolit inline and not dent or distort the boolit. Does anyone make a Pope style repro boolit starter or what do you use for boolit seating if you shoot a ML target rifle?

StrawHat
12-29-2014, 09:20 AM
Have whoever is building your rifle cut about 2" from the muzzle end and make a false muzzle for you. That and a short starter should have you where you want to be.

bob208
12-29-2014, 11:19 AM
have them cut that false muzzle before the barrel is rifled. then fit it with the pins then rifle the barrel with the false muzzle installed.. if is done after rifling the rifling will not line up. then another false muzzle to fit on the false muzzle this one is the o.d. of the bullet. this one holds the bullet straight as you start it into the rifled muzzle.

Dixiejack
12-29-2014, 04:42 PM
I've checked that route and the barrel has already been cut to length.

curator
12-29-2014, 08:02 PM
I shoot a .45 caliber E. Wesson rifle using a 450 grain grease-groove boolit. I size them to .451 (land diameter .452) they are a neat slip fit not requiring a short starter or a false muzzle. I load a .125" card wad over powder compressed to 30 pounds. Boolits obturate perfectly upon firing showing rifling all the way from base to ogive with loads as low as 55 grains of FFg black powder. The slugs are cast from pure lead with 2% tin added. Loading the Lee .45/250 R.E.A.L. boolit required a fitted short starter to get the slug started straight in the bore and not damage the nose. I made a short starter using a 3/8" fiberglas rod, a short length of cut off .357 Magnum brass and epoxy. After afixing a stout knob on one end to save my hand, I filled the brass sleeve with epoxy and slid it over the rod. Having coated the Lee REAL boolit with wax, I carefully placed the epoxy sleeve on the boolit nose and let it set standing perfectly perpendicular. With a little exacto knife trimming I have a short starter that exactly fits my boolit nose and my rifle bore and is easy on the hand when I whack it hard enough to seat it 6" down the muzzle.

Omnivore
12-29-2014, 09:57 PM
Listen to curator ^ ^ ^

StrawHat
12-30-2014, 07:12 AM
curator has good advice. If you still want a false muzzle, there are ways to do it, but the method used by curator is simple.

Dixiejack
12-30-2014, 02:24 PM
Curator, your boolit starter sounds like what I am looking for. Thanks for the detailed instructions.
I also ran across a Spin Jag starter on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/190639998389?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
anybody ever use one of these?

fouronesix
12-30-2014, 04:26 PM
I looked at the spin jag thingy on fleabay and while it may work, it certainly has to be a one-size-fits-all nose profile. Custom short starters are very easy to make. It would seem worth it to try a do it yourself custom nose profile starter first.

I have made a few specifically for a couple of different nose profiles. curator's method is as good as any for precise profile fit using something like JB Weld. I've used a solid brass jag near bore diameter that I drilled and taper reamed the nose socket to fit that of T/C Maxiball nose profiles in a couple of different calibers.

On a larger 58 cal, I used a brass tube, plugged the nose end with a hardwood dowel, relieved and roughed-in the socket, then used JB Weld for precise nose profile fit. Then drilled a delrin, over-the-muzzle guide for the starter to ensure straight line thrust.

johnson1942
12-30-2014, 05:39 PM
machined plunger type, works great.fits over the barrel tight and in the bullets go.

Dixiejack
12-30-2014, 08:13 PM
johnson, did you make it or acquire it and if you did, where? What you have sounds like a Pope style starter.

johnson1942
12-31-2014, 02:43 PM
bought it years ago but they aren't hard to make on a lathe. I can draw you up a blueprint if you want me to. you just put the bullet in it, fit it over the muzzle, push the plunger down and the bullet is in. I also shortened the barrel on that rifle so now I just take the piece I cut off and fasten it In a padded vice and take my bullets and one by one I run the cast bullet through that short piece using the starter.. it preengraves the bullet. these can be loaded with ease with out a starter. also I got into single wrap paperpatch. I like that best. I just resize the bullet 8 thousands under top of lands bore size and use a single wrap of 18 pound freezer wrap paper. no lube, just the paper. very easy to load and the accuracy is as good as the castbullet started with the starter. cleaner also as there is no grease or lube to foul the barrel. a cast bullets loaded with a starter is of course very very accurate but the single wrap paperpatched bullet is just as accurate and less trouble in the long run. ive switched all my cast bullet guns to single wrap paperpatching. all it took was buying a resizeing die for each gun, one that cost 31 dollars each. you will enjoy shooting your new gun no matter what direction you go with the bullets. I even had a mold made that was a bore rider with a roundball attached to the base. to load you just patch the roundball part of the base and the long bullet part rode the top of the lands. that type of bullet was just as accurate as a cast bullet started by a starter and the paperpatched bullet. wasn't hard to load either, same as a round ball. that bullet works very very well in the 1/28 twist .50 cal inlines out their. it weighs 533 grains and hits like a freight train.

Dixiejack
01-01-2015, 11:47 AM
I would be happy to have a blueprint of your plunger starter. I have a couple of BPCR's and I breech seat the boolits. I have thought about seating the boolits from the muzzle end to see what kind of groups I can shoot compared to breech seating. I'm not going to cut off any of the barrels to pre-engrave the boolits, but I like that idea.

fouronesix
01-01-2015, 03:25 PM
Keep it simple and no need for blueprints, etc.

Here's one I made. The guide is from delrin (nice working type of polymer) but can be made from anything. The starter is a brass tube with wood dowel insert glued in. The bullet end is formed to precisely fit the bullet nose. Has a wood palm knob.

The guide has 2 hole diameters, each drilled 1/2 way through. The large ID is a slip fit over the muzzle and the small ID is a slip fit for the bullet and the starter.

Place the guide over the muzzle, insert bullet in small hole, push bullet into bore with starter.

Isn't rocket science and it works.

doc1876
01-01-2015, 03:52 PM
what will they think of next!!? fouronesix, That is slick.

Dixiejack
01-01-2015, 07:44 PM
It is slick. Thanks for posting your photos and description.

fouronesix
01-01-2015, 08:58 PM
I use the guide and starter combo for a particular rifle that needs a bullet that's slightly larger than bore diameter and slightly less than groove diameter. It keeps the bullet aligned as it's started. A similar tool would be handy when starting any bullet where the base or lower shank is a little larger than bore… like a REAL.

For something like the T/C Maxis it's not needed as most of the bullet shank (which should be bore diameter) can be loaded with finger pressure so alignment isn't an issue. For those type conicals I use a simple starter with a nose section that matches the bullet nose profile- then it's simple to pop the front drive band into full engagement before ramming with a regular rod.

dlbarr
01-01-2015, 10:00 PM
I don't use a short starter anymore. Years ago (and this is old news by now to those reading this thread) I heard about "coning" the muzzle and had a tool made up to do so. Allows you to thumb-start your projectile, whether boolit or RB, and then send it home with the ramrod. I suppose this is somewhat of a built-in "false muzzle".

Accuracy never suffered and it eliminated one piece of gear that took up space in my shooting bag. I'm in favor of tools to make things work better but I like "simple" best.

johnson1942
01-02-2015, 12:32 PM
dlbarr, can you explain the way you coned your rifle barrel. i tried that on a .50 cal paperpatched target rifle and the accracy suffered. i had a good reamer to do it with. caused too many fliers. to make it shoot again i shortened the barrel by 1 and 1/2 inches and it is back to being a tack driver. may be i did it wrong but i dont think so. still interested in coneing. my young sons custon made inline came coned on a douglas barrel .50 cal. it shoots both sabots and paperpatch very well. im just wondering what i did wrong that they did better. thanks before hand.

dlbarr
01-02-2015, 02:05 PM
johnson, I took pictures with my phone but cannot get them transferred to my computer...tried emailing them etc.... will try to explain without pics.

I had a coning tool made by Steve Bookout of Toad Hall Rifle Shop http://toadhallrifleshop.com/the-shop/. It is essentially a tapered piece of brass stock that has each end machined straight, one end to be chucked in your drill, the other to accept the proper size pilot to fit your bore in order to hold the tool straight in the barrel while performing the coning process. You wrap a piece of emery cloth around the tool and "cone" just until the lands are flush with the grooves for maybe 1/8" depth from the muzzle, certainly not 1/4" - I believe that would be too much. Anyway, that's how I did it and it worked out fine. No more annoying short starter.

dlbarr
01-02-2015, 02:18 PM
Here are instructions with diagrams on the coning tool.

126088
126089

johnson, it may be that when you coned the barrel, the tool used was not held straight with the line of the bore. The pilot inside the barrel to support the tool is important. If a guy had a lathe, he could easily make his own. Frankly, a wood lathe could be used to turn this tool out of oak or other hardwood also. At least the cone...the pilot(s) would be a little difficult to turn out of wood.

fouronesix
01-02-2015, 02:56 PM
I've seen all manner of muzzles tapered coned for this purpose. Mostly for PRB shooting. A shallow cone won't work well for most conicals that are slightly over bore size. You still have to start most of the bullet shank length in a straight line with the bore axis until the shank is engraved in the lands. The muzzles I've seen for starting conicals are not taper coned. They are rebated with an ID of groove diameter of the bore. For those to work right, the counterbore must be concentric and on axis with the bore.

Another issue is an unknown to me, but seems like variables of muzzle pressure of the charge and type of projectile base, etc. would determine how accuracy would be affected by bullet release at the crown-bore junction with various designs of that junction.

I really don't need to speed load any muzzleloader anyway. I guess some do if trying to impress an audience, for some competition exercise or when being charged by an enemy.

johnson1942
01-02-2015, 03:17 PM
since ive switched to single wrap paperpatching i am speed loading anyways. any concept in muzzleloading is interesting to me. poss. my bore quide wasnt tight enough.

johnson1942
01-02-2015, 03:19 PM
dixie jack, the pictures are in the email, also check your pm/s for details.

PiXeL
01-06-2015, 05:03 PM
Warto przeczytać.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4152858

https://www.google.com/patents/US163404

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/blackpowder-slug-guns-the-mitchell-gun/


Dixiejack
01-06-2015, 06:42 PM
PiXel, thanks for sharing. Very interesting information and the Mitchell gun is awsome. NMLRA has a lot going on throughout the year.

PiXeL
01-07-2015, 12:28 PM
You're welcome.

Newtire
11-25-2015, 11:07 AM
Thanks curator. You just answered a question I had.