leading with H&G 50 no leading with RCBS 38-148WC - thoughts ? - help ?

[varmint243]

I recently purchased a 10 cavity H&G #50
It is in very nice shape but I am getting some leading with it and had to back my powder charge down from 4.0 to 3.5 WST
I have a couple friends that are good casters and have given me some ideas of things to check
Basically the bullets are very similar except for the lube grooves
125295
After less that 250 rounds downrange I am getting enough leading with the H&G 50 to see some key holing at 40 yards with 4.0 WST.
When using 3.5 WST I get a little leading around the leads but not enough to affect accuracy at 40 yards.
I am using a 50/50 lube purchased off eBay that works fine in my other 38 and 45 loads.

I found this paragraph in the Fryxell book and it seems to fit
>>>>>http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm<<<<<
>>>>>
Leading caused by the load/components. Perhaps the most common source of leading resulting from the components is due to the use of too little, or inappropriate, bullet lube. Some bullet designs have skimpy little shallow lube grooves and simply do not carry enough lube to be shot at any kind of serious velocity without leading. These bullets will never provide satisfactory service at anything other than moderate velocities.
<<<<<

If you are looking for more detail
I am shooting them in a S&W model 14 - 6" barrel
Lubing all grooves with 50/50 (very soft)
Federal cases, bullet loaded to the crimp groove with minimal (no) crimp
cylinder throat is .3575
using a .358 sizer in a LAM 2
range scrap that my friend tested with his cabin tree tester at 18+ bhn
aged for at least two weeks
I pulled a bullet from a loaded round to make sure I wasn't resizing it during seating
4.0 WST chronographs at about 900fps

Can the difference in the lube grooves really make that much difference in what velocity they can work well at ?
I'm about to back the load down to 3.2 but I'd rather not
any thoughts or ideas ?

[35remington]

You do not lack lube as the HG 50 has a great plenty of both fairly deep and fairly large lube grooves. In point of fact many pistol bullets suffer from overlubrication. It is common with light loads to lube just a single lube groove as leading is controlled and accuracy is usually better with less lube than too much.

Your velocity does not qualify as needing generous lubrication but if these are seated to the crimp groove they are approaching Plus P. "Skimpy little shallow lube grooves" are more than adequate for most standard velocity pistol rounds. Their lube demands are modest.

I'm wondering if something else is the cause. Do you get leading with other bullet types sized to the same diameter?

18 BHN seems hard for range scrap unless it is quenched from the mould. Have you tried anything at 10-12 BHN and seen if softer is better?

[varmint243]

You do not lack lube as the HG 50 has a great plenty of both fairly deep and fairly large lube grooves. In point of fact many pistol bullets suffer from overlubrication. It is common with light loads to lube just a single lube groove as leading is controlled and accuracy is usually better with less lube than too much.

Your velocity does not qualify as needing generous lubrication but if these are seated to the crimp groove they are approaching Plus P. "Skimpy little shallow lube grooves" are more than adequate for most standard velocity pistol rounds. Their lube demands are modest.

I'm wondering if something else is the cause. Do you get leading with other bullet types sized to the same diameter?

18 BHN seems hard for range scrap unless it is quenched from the mould. Have you tried anything at 10-12 BHN and seen if softer is better?

The bullet on the left is the RCBS version of the 38 148WC and I get zero leading with it.
The bullet on the right is the H&G #50
Everything else is the same except the bullet/mould
The H&G is apparently more prone to leading.
Unfortunately I don't have easy access to different lead supplies/hardness, If I did I would gladly try softer lead.
It's whatever I recover from the backstop and cook down, usually it is very hard because most shooters use commercial cast.
It is worth it to me to try to get the H&G working because my time is limited and I can cast 500-1000 fairly quickly.

Add that I believe something else probably is the cause, I'm just not sure what to look at next

[Down South]

After less that 250 rounds downrange I am getting enough leading with the H&G 50 to see some key holing at 40 yards with 4.0 WST.

Did you measure the OD of the H&G 50 as cast? If you are key holing, the boolits may be too small in diameter.

[varmint243]

.359 - .361 slightly out of round, wider across the parting line
cleaning up nicely with a .358 size die
measured with a high quality B&S micrometer
what is the group's general opinion of Jake's 50/50 ? good, bad, indifferent ?

[ryan28]

What is the diameter of the RCBS bullet? With the H&G, it could be improper mold fill out with so many cavities. Are the H&G bullets all the same in diameter? Could be one bad cavity causing you grief. I would think that the chance of getting 10 good bullets each cast would be slim. At least you have a mold that works for you, that's something.

[varmint243]

I sort the H&G by visual inspection and then by weight
Quite a few get culled but not as many as you might think
Overall I m happy with the H&G but I would like to keep the velocity up as I sometimes shoot plates with the model 14

[rintinglen]

It may be the photo, but that H&G boolit looks as though it is not being sized, i.e., it seems smaller than the RCBS. If that is indeed the case, then it is no shock that you are getting leading. Hard, undersized boolits work perfectly as barrel liners--it just takes them a while to coat the walls. I'd try a bit more tin and a softer alloy--if you're water dropping them, then stop.
There is no likelihood that insufficient lube is the culprit. I have loaded many, many button nose wadcutters, including the H&G 50, with one lube ring filled with Javelina brand NRA Formula 50/50 lube. I experienced minimal to no leading, depending on the gun, and shaved a half inch off my 50 yard groups. E. H. Harrison ran an extensive series of tests using various permutations of 38 special ammo and proved that the most accurate 38 special wadcutter boolit loads in his guns were H&G 50BB, CORRECTLY SIZED, and lubed in one ring.

[varmint243]

The RCBS was pulled from a loaded round and the H&G had not been thru the LAM2 yet
That is probably why the sides look a little different in the picture
Also note that the bullets were edited to be closer to each other in the pic
They both size nicely with the .358 size die
The only difference I am really seeing is that the H&G does not seem to like the 4.0 WST
They are both nicely accurate at 40yds - until leading affects the H&G and that is only with the 4.0 charge and not the 3.5 charge

At this point I'm leaning towards dropping the powder charge down to 3.2 WST, that was my PPC load with a 150gr LSWC
I do appreciate the thoughts and suggestions and am still open to any and all additional ideas and theories

[hunter74]

I had the same problem with this boolit with range scrap. I added pure lead and the problem went away. I use 70/30 range scrap / pure + 2 percent tin and one groove filed with carnuba red. Works great with 2.5 gr Clays. I have only tested this load at 25 m. I'm not surprised if they start to tumble at 50-60m. It is a mild load but it shoots great at short range.

[**oneshot**]

Try a few H&G with the front driving band set forward to equal the RCBS.

[varmint243]

I will give that a try
It hadn't even occurred to me to change the seating depth
I always just seated to the crimp groove
since I only push the walls back straight the crimp groove doesn't really matter

Looks like it's going to be nice out today
I am going to try to chrono the 3.5 WST loads during my range session
I have 200rds loaded up and will shoot them this weekend and see how the leading goes
I cleaned the cylinder throats and bore to spotless with a very light coat of oil this morning

[Ben]

It wouldn't be the 1st time I've read about leading with an alloy that is too hard.

Soften it and the leading disappears.

Ben

[Forrest r]

It wouldn't be the 1st time I've read about leading with an alloy that is too hard.

Soften it and the leading disappears.

Ben

A quick way to see if the alloy's too hard is to put some of the already cast boolits in a 400* oven for 10 to 15 minutes & then let them sit out and cool naturally. That will soften/anneal your 18bhn alloy down to usable levels/target loads.

[varmint243]

Enough people are suggesting to try softer lead that I suppose I should try it
My main issue is that my source of lead is range scrap
I will have to ask around and see what I can find
I did Chrono my 3.5 WST loads today - 10 shot average of 831fps
I get a little lead in the cylinder throat and a little at the start of the rifling, not enough to effect accuracy
I think I will load the next batch down to 3.2 WST and see if that little bit goes away
IMO I shouldn't have to do lead removal more than once a year or so , and certainly not every other range visit
I was hoping to stay away from powder puff loads, I guess I will have to have seperate target and steel plate loads
1,000 bullets per casting session with the H&G is just to good to not use it

[GSM]

Varmint:

The softer route is probably a real good bet. Also, in the pics it looks like the driving bands on the H&G may not be as fully formed as they are on the RCBS - not a poke or criticism, just an observation. Compare the cast #50 to the mold cavities. The #50 continues to be, for me at least, a very hard bullet to get 100% right for a majority of the time. Higher heat helps. It's actually a very detailed / complicated design if you look at the number of radii and tangents involved.

What others have said about lubing just one groove is spot on. If you can find a copy of Col. Harrison's work on cast bullets, he has a very interesting article concerning 38 wadcutters, 50/50 lube, and how much to use. Jake's is good stuff.

How about a little info on how you use the 10 cavity mold? Pre-heat? Casting temp? What do you do for the bicep spasms after using it for a while? I put my 10 cavity guys in storage after a fair amount of frustration - before I figured out a hot plate and higher heat were friends, not enemies. Might have to break them out and give them another try some day.

[varmint243]

I think you should give your big moulds another day in court
It took me tearing my hands and arms up the first time I used the mould to realize I needed to change my setup

What I have figured out so far
I downloaded and read the pdf manual for the big H&G moulds from the stickies

1.) I made a new mould guide from steel and put a pair of valve springs under the front
this allows me to very easily line the cavities up with the spout as I pour

2.) I switched to a plastic faced hammer and have a 2x3 mounted to the bench to hold the hinge as I strike the sprue cutter
I turn the mould sideways with the top facing me and strike down on the sprue cutter

3.) You must pre heat the mould, I already had a hotplate from before I had a bottom pour pot
I also found that you must preheat your ingots if you plan on adding lead as you go
You will drain the pot so fast that adding lead seems to be required
Any time you set the mould down set it on the hot plate

4.) I went back to fluxing - with a 2 cavity mould and a bottom pour pot this was unnecessary

5.) I run everything as hot as I can, my Lyman pot doesn't really get very hot
When I add lead I put the mould back on the hot plate and wait for the pot to get 100% hot again flux and then start casting again

I imagine as I cast more I will change how I do things, for now this setup allows me to cast 1,000+ bullets in a session without wearing myself out
I really like this mould
I bought a 4 cavity Saeco off eBay and tested with it last night and it just doesn't compare to the H&G (same bullet design)
I plan on sticking with the H&G until I get it all figured out, however long it takes :-)

http://home.comcast.net/~varmint243/pwpimages/casting-setup.jpg

[fecmech]

I run everything as hot as I can, my Lyman pot doesn't really get very hot
It's not surprising with the amount of air you're moving over the pot with that fan.

[Char-Gar]

Those bullets are way to hard at 18 Bhn and leading can be predicted based on that fact alone. Back it down to 8 to 11 Bhn and your problems will go away.

Hensley and Gibbs 50 has been around for many years and there is nothing wrong with the design.

Save that super hard alloy rifle rifle bullets at 2,000 fps, they have no place in revolver shooting.

[varmint243]

I'm back from the range after adding 150 more rounds to my 500 round H&G #50 leading testing
This puts me at about 400 of 500 planned rounds without cleaning/de-leading the cylinder throats and bore
I am doing the testing to see how the buildup goes after backing the charge down from 4.0 to 3.5
Interesting to note that after today's 150 rounds there doesn't seem to be any more buildup in the throats or leads than there was before
It seems to have gotten to a point and stabilized -ish
This suggests to me that the possibility exists of lead being picked up and deposited in the throat and leads as the bullets pass thru
I see this as a more likely possibility in the throats than at the leads
Next weekend I will run the remaining 175 or so rounds and see if there is any change
I am going to make the assumption if I can run 500+ rounds without 40 yard accuracy being affected that I could probably run 1,000 or more

All of this suggests to my that I exceeeded the velocity that the H&G #50 prefers
As I think about the wadcutter design it would have been used mainly by taget shooters running 2.8 - 3.0 Bullseye
I doubt many would have tried to run the velocity I was running with it
So it all sort of makes sense, I guess
The raitio of lube groove to band on the H&G is visably differnt than the RCBS
It is more noticable when they are both lubed and side by side

I have cast some bullets from a Saeco 148 flat base wadcutter mould and it too has visably more lube grove than the H&G
It will be interesting to see if the Saeco tolerates the velocity of the RCBS design

[Pilgrim]

It seems to me you gave the critical info a few posts back. Leading in the cylinder throats and/or forcing cone and/or leade almost always says undersized boolit. Going softer will allow the boolit to upset and seal sooner. It appears to me you need to go bigger with the H&G or much softer with everything else the same. FWIW Pilgrim

[varmint243]

I believe in my last post I was stating that testing concluded it was to much velocity for the bullet design and lubrication of the H&G #50
Lowering the powder charge/velocity to something more typical of a old school 38 wadcutter load seems to have been the resolution
I was simply stating my findings for others to read if they wish
I would like to thank everyone for their input, and 44man in particular for some insightful information