Too much velocity in big bore solids?

[bcr]

I saw a suggestion on the S&W forum that I don't think I've ever thought about before or seen discussed. I am hoping that 44man and MtGun44 will give their input, but of course I am interested in anyone else's experience as well.

The context was a discussion of hunting loads for big bore handguns. I think the same thing applies to rifles, like my Marlin GG in 45/70. Someone said that a good Keith solid at 1000 fps will go end-for-end through any animal in North America, so that if you load up to max velocities, say 1500 fps in the 44 Mag., you're not getting any more usable stopping power and the shooter and the handgun just take a beating. This makes a lot of sense to me.

So, with a well-designed cast solid like a Keith 250 or a Ranch Dog 265 in the .44 Mag., or a 405 gr. solid in the 45/70, what is the maximum useful velocity until you're wasting powder and creating unnecessary recoil? Obviously this will depend on the size of the game being hunted, but let's assume big game like elk, bison, bear, etc.

Finally, if it is true that a 250 gr. Keith solid at 1200 fps will go end-for-end through an American bison, for instance, then my big .44 Mag. Redhawk doesn't have any terminal performance advantage over my medium framed .44 Special Blackhawk.

Merry Christmas everybody!

[dondiego]

What range? Trajectory can be an issue.

[lwknight]

The only thing I can tell you is that a 45-70 will smash through a whole lot more than any kind of 44mag load. Kinda like bulldozer vs pickup truck.

[Hickok]

Just my experience, as I load to 1250-1300fps with 250-265 gr castboolits (Lyman #429421 and Lyman 429244 GC) from my various .44 magnums, and these loads put game down very well at ranges out to 100 yards, my self-imposed limit with iron sights.

I can load to higher velocity, but 1250-1300 is comfortable for me to shoot, has always worked performed well on game. It works for me, so I stay with it.

1250-1300 is the "magic muzzle velocity" for me, as I backed down from the 1400-1500 fps muzzle speeds years ago mainly because the recoil was getting painful in revolvers.

Same with my Marlin 1895 in 45/70. 400+gr boolits at 1800-2000fps out of a rifle that is the same size and weight of a 30/30 lever action was no fun. About like getting hit with a baseball bat everytime I pulled the trigger. I now shoot in the 1200-1400 fps velocity region and enjoy the rifle. A 400+gr cast boolit at 1200-1400fps will kill anything that needs killing with a 45/70.

I don't want the pain, I want enjoyment.

[Bigslug]

I'd recommend you go over to LBT's website and get a copy of Veral Smith's Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets. It does a very good job of discussing the variables of velocity, meplat diameter, and sectional density with regards to terminal performance, and made a lot of the personal observations and research together rattling around in my head come together into something a bit more orderly.

More meplat gets you more crush in front of the bullet. More velocity gets you more damage beyond the diameter of the bullet. Veral's observations suggest that for best bleed out you want at least 0.6" and no more than about 1.5" of permanent wound channel diameter. His philosophy on the Keith is that it penetrates a lot more than it needs to for most critters, but doesn't make as wide a hole in them as might be desired.

While I can't imagine anything that takes a solid cardiovascular hit from the Keith would want to do much other than fall over and promptly die, what I have observed is that meplat does matter. A milk jug shot with a .27" meplat 405 grain .45-70 at 1600fps ruptures impressively, but applying the same weight and velocity with a .34" meplat causes the jugs to explode CATACLYSMICALLY. The Keith .44 is a .27" nose; LFN's are typically about .30, and WFN's about .33"-.34". Worth filing away.

I have been very impressed by the penetrating capabilities of these lead solids, and it's been causing me to think in terms of increasing amount of meplat for roughly the same weight - - which should enable you to have either the same wound channel at a lower speed (with lower recoil), or a wider one at the same speed and recoil level you are already accustomed to. Probably gonna be a 260 grain WFN in my future. . .:veryconfu

[hickfu]

A 45-70 loaded up to between 1200 and 1400 fps will go through just about anything on this planet length wise. When you start to get over the 1400 to 1500 fps the boolit will stop penetrating as much.

My 45-70 will out penetrate a 458 Win Mag, but you will not get the Hydrostatic shock as you do with the faster round.
I had a buddy of mine do the test with 458 Win Mag vrs 45-70 on penetration because he thought his would go through much more then mine would..

I like to eat meat so I make sure my loads are slower so you can eat right up to the hole... no meat loss from blasting it with too much hydrostatic shock.

[bcr]

All great info, thanks guys!

[StrawHat]

dondiego mentioned it first, the more velocity, the flatter the trajectory. It can make your hold over easier and increase the range at which you can comfortably score a hit.

Personally, I find that boolits at black powder velocities are all I need. If the game is too far for a hit, get closer.

[tazman]

A 45-70 loaded up to between 1200 and 1400 fps will go through just about anything on this planet length wise. When you start to get over the 1400 to 1500 fps the boolit will stop penetrating as much.

My 45-70 will out penetrate a 458 Win Mag, but you will not get the Hydrostatic shock as you do with the faster round.
I had a buddy of mine do the test with 458 Win Mag vrs 45-70 on penetration because he thought his would go through much more then mine would..

I like to eat meat so I make sure my loads are slower so you can eat right up to the hole... no meat loss from blasting it with too much hydrostatic shock.

A couple of decades ago when I was still dreaming of hunting in Africa, I owned a 458 Winchester magnum. I did a penetration test using 500 grain soft points and a 540 grain cast solid.
Penetration media was a brown clay bank at 100 yards. It was convenient because I could dig in it without problems.
The soft points went in about 2 and 1 half-3 feet and mushroomed beautifully. It left a huge conical hole in the ground with the bullet at the bottom.
I really can't report on the solid as I never found it. I dug into the bank over 6 feet and never found the boolit.
It was still leaving a hole to follow and had not deviated from it's original line the entire distance.
Penetration with heavy cast solids is unbelievable.

[dubber123]

I shot 2 nearly identical sized hogs with cast WFN's. 1 load was running around 1,000 fps. the other 1,350. Shot placement was the same, (behind shoulder). The 1,350 did much more internal damage, and that hog went down fast. The other, well not so much. I'd recommend keeping it at least 1,200 fps.

[Lloyd Smale]

the problem with velocity is to much and youll deform your bullets either in the barrel or when they hit an animal and it can cause them to not tract straight throw and animal while penetrating. Id say in my experience 1500 is about it and that's pushing it. Now if your shooting thin skinned animals like deer with a 4570 your Probably not going to run into much penetration problem not matter what you do and I know from experience that cast soft nose bullets or cast hps out of a 4570 at 1800 fps knock the cork out of deer but youd best hit them right or your going to have a mess. Bottom line though is if given a 44 45 475 or 500 with a heavy for caliber bullet with a good metplat at even 1100 fps and I wouldn't shy away from any animal short of an elephant that walks the earth. At least with a backup rifle behind me anyway:shock: One thing Ill about guarantee you is with a good alloy that bullet is eventually going into the ground. I wouldn't even consider tackling a dangerous animal with a cast bullet at over 1500 fps. Your just asking to get et!!:bigsmyl2:

[sharpsguy]

This thread should be a stickie, and be required reading for the new guys that come on here. The only thing I would add is that FOR A RIFLE I would go heavier than a 400 grain FN bullet. The very best rifle bullet I have found for a 45 caliber rifle is the Lyman 457121 FN at 480 grains. It has seven grease grooves, and sits mostly down in the case, and cycles through a Cowboy Marlin like butter. It is a stone cold killer.

I shoot this bullet for everything in my Marlin and also in my Sharps 45-70 and 45-110. I have taken several elk and bison, not to mention large hogs and deer with the bullet, and have used it in Africa with my Sharps where I have taken several kudu, wildebeast, warthogs and other plains game, 90% of them over 200 yards, and most beyond 300. I have NEVER recovered a bullet, getting complete pass through. The velocity is 1242 fps, and it is magic with this bullet. If there was ever one bullet and load for a rifle, this is it.

This thread has more good, accurate information on it than you new guys can imagine. Get a 400 to 480 grani FN bullet, drive it at 1100-1300 fps, and enjoy. You're welcome.

[44man]

I don't shoot larger then deer and a hard cast has impressive penetration. Even though a 240 to 250 keith still has it, boolit weight might be more important. I like 310 to 330 gr in my .44 and I imagine they would go through a bison. Velocity is another thing to consider for killing power, the range in my .44 is about 1316 fps for HARD boolits so everything I have found is for about 22 BHN or higher. WLN and WFN track straight and even bone does not deter them.
I don't agree with every point Veral makes since a hard boolit too fast does not kill smaller deer well and would be better suited to larger animals. They just do not slow enough to work. My 45-70 BFR will poke a hole through deer with a boolit size hole using my WLN so I made a WFN of 80% meplat and it did not improve. What I figure is happening is the pressure wave off the meplat is forcing tissue out of the way of the boolit in a secondary wound channel that will collapse. I had the same problem with the heavy 440 gr boolit from my .500 JRH at 1350 fps. .50 cal hole and no blood trails, deer making 120 yards. Deer hit with the WFN from the 45-70 could do 200 to 300 yards with no blood trails.
I had too much of a good thing.
I cast the .500 boolit with just half the nose with softer lead and now deer drop on the spot, just enough deformation to slow the boolit. I need to do the same with the 45-70. If I took the 45-70 down to 1100 or 1200 fps, it would work better but accuracy would suffer so much I would not hit a deer. Same in the JRH. But you need to look at animal size so the hard boolits might work fine on a Bison. More mass to slow a boolit. More "dwell time."
Penetration alone is over rated if the boolit does no work. However too slow along with penetration will lose energy and also slow killing. It still comes down to boolit construction for your velocity so if you shoot slow, a little expansion is good as well if you shoot too fast.
Hard boolits are more restricted to velocity and boolit weight. Meplat size will not fix it if you are out of bounds. Shoot them so fast that hard lead upsets some might work too.
I suppose my hardest job has been to make boolits work for each gun and velocity without losing two holes. Destroy lungs without ruining meat.
A good boolit, can do more damage at 1100 to 1200 then the same boolit at 1600 fps. Take it to 1800 or 2000 and I don't have the slightest idea. I gave up reliance on meplat size alone. A Keith shot just right is as deadly so don't look for thousandths of an inch.
It would appear to me that a WFN might be served better if a little slower to reduce the wave in front of it. See the wave from a fighter breaking the sound barrier, that is NOT what you want in a deer. Pull the wave closer to the boolit so the primary channel is larger.
OK, call me a nut!

[Bigslug]

A good boolit, can do more damage at 1100 to 1200 then the same boolit at 1600 fps. Take it to 1800 or 2000 and I don't have the slightest idea. I gave up reliance on meplat size alone. A Keith shot just right is as deadly so don't look for thousandths of an inch.
It would appear to me that a WFN might be served better if a little slower to reduce the wave in front of it. See the wave from a fighter breaking the sound barrier, that is NOT what you want in a deer. Pull the wave closer to the boolit so the primary channel is larger.
OK, call me a nut!

Is anyone here not?

Veral touches on this a little by adding in the opinions of an M.D. on the topic. Keeping in mind that MAJOR artery and nerve hits will pretty much floor a critter regardless of the bullet details, this doc stated that a really wide channel from hydrostatic pressure won't bleed an animal out as quickly as something a little more conservative. The reason given is that such "ballooning" wounds cause the release of a clotting agent. I tend to think it's more along the lines of a bruising and swelling reaction causing the surrounding tissue to clamp down around the severed vessels. The question (I guess) is at what point do you cross from one to the other?

The tricky aspect is that there are multiple variables at play. A round nose solid at 3000 fps will have less of a hyrdostatic effect than a WFN at 1400, and a .308 that mushrooms and a .45 that doesn't aren't really all that different. It's not ALL speed and it's not ALL bullet shape.

[44man]

Bigslug, you do see it. I try for behind shoulder, double lung shots instead of mashed meat but sometimes a deer is angled wrong and I hit the off shoulder. Everyone says you need to hit the CNS but don't know how small a target it is and is mostly luck. Sure a rifle from a rest can do it all the time. I can with a revolver from a rest but to depend on that from off hand means you are a robot. Never had buck fever or shakes. Nobody admits to a gut shot either but darn I have done it. Nobody is perfect.
Too many say boolit placement but the CNS is about a liter bottle at 50 yards and I bet if the super shots came here, they would go through a whole box of ammo without hitting the bottle off hand.
What do you do? You make the boolit work even if you are off.