Unwanted help at the range

[Clinton]

It's been raining all week so I didn't get a chance to get out to the range until today. The place was one big mud hole with standing water covering most of the ground between the benches and the target boards. All kinds of new faces, mostly hunters there for their annual sighting in of their deer rifles. Usually I try to only go to the range on Mon - Fri just to avoid the crowds. I guess I have to add Christmas eve to the list of days to avoid.

Usually when people see me shooting cast bullets they walk over to my bench and check them out, sometimes ask a question or tell of their experiences with cast bullets. Today was my first experience with someone who completely rejected the thought of shooting cast bullets in a rifle. He walked up to my bench at first just to have a look at my rifle but then when he saw the cast loads in my box immediately asked how my loads were performing. I said they were shooting OK but still not to my satisfaction yet.

He then stated I should go buy some good jacketed bullets. I said these rounds only cost me around 10 cents a piece (pulling a number out of my ***). He then explained that a primer costs 4 cents ( to which I agreed ) and stated "40 gr of powder costs......". That's where I cut him off and told him I was only using 21 gr of powder. He then asked what powder I was using and I told him IMR4227 to which he responded by pulling a burn rate chart out and began searching vigorously for the offending powder.

He eventually found it toward the top of the chart and proclaimed it to be too fast of a powder to use in rifle cartridges safely. At this point I was beginning to get a bit frustrated at the unwanted help I was getting and thought seriously of telling him of my past loads with SR7625 to see if I could make his heart give out therefore ending the conversation. Instead I gently suggested reloading cast bullets follows and entirely different set of rules and that my loads could all be found in a Lyman book. To that he had no response although I could now see the frustration in HIS face.

I've had past experiences with people at the range all too willing to impose on me their wealth of information but today's experience was by far the most aggravating.

[dragon813gt]

Sorry to hear and you have more patience then me. Know it alls seem to be abundant at the range. I've never had a hobby where there were so many of them. I'm not a fan of talking to people at the range.

[ShooterAZ]

This is one reason I don't care for public ranges. I go to my hidey hole in the woods and never get bothered. I'd have politely told him "I know what I'm doing, but thanks anyway". If that wasn't enough, the next time would not be nearly as polite.

[GoodOlBoy]

I have been told what I was doing was dangerous because reloading is "just dangerous". I have been told my guns were dangerous because "any gun over ten years old is dangerous to shoot". And I have been told by the very people I was out shooting that cast lead was "not accurate". heck I was told one time by a guy that all handloads had a 3 in 8 (he was insistent on this number) misfire rate, and about every hundredth round would blow up a gun no matter what you did. Then another guy the same day insisted that cast bullets would just "fall out" the barrel and couldn't be used for hunting or target shooting....

Sometimes you just have to smile and shake your head and encourage them to move on....

GoodOlBoy

[Leadmelter]

Even at my club, I am not a range talker. My free time is very limited and to deal with somebody like that would ruin my day. If asked about loads and boolits with my facts.
A nice guy told me, " Won't those bullets lead your bore", and I said "not if you make them yourself and know what you are doing."
He said, " YOU CAST YOUR OWN, ONE OF THOSE?'. I said "Yes"
Too many armchair shooter who read those gun rags and take them for gospel.
Mind your own business unless asked.
Leadmelter
MI

[fredj338]

There are people that know stuff & people that think they know stuff. Far too many of the later running around the country. Many of them in govt.:veryconfu

[country gent]

I really enjoy some of those people at times. Its really interesting to see the looks at my club ( private club membership only) when I uncase the Hepburn or CPA and start shooting them. The Hepburn is a 45-90 that is normally shot with paper patched bullets in the 500 grn wieght range, The CPA is a shilouette model in 40-65 both wear fancy walnut. I have had guys tell me fancy rifles arnt meant to be shot. When shooting the hepburn Ive had guys complain about the confetti from the paper patch. The ones that think the rifles shouldnt be shot really go off when I inform them its also real black powder behind the bullets. One old timer actually came over and told me I had to quit shooting as the loads were damaging the gun die to the smoke and sharpnel ( confetti and wads) coming out the barrel. But also there are alot more that will come over during Down time and ask to look at the rifles and ask what Im doing. They are curious wanting to learn and also interested in all the aspects. One gentleman was there with his son ( probably 14-15) and both were very interested in these turn of the century rifles. I talked to the Dad and set the boy up behind the rifle had him dry fire a few times working with him, walked him thru the operation of it. Handed him the first round and he loaded the rifle got down behind it onthe bench and at the boom and thud of the recoil he had a smile an undertaker couldnt remove. He fired 4 more rounds at 200 yds and was just over joyed with it. When I bump into his dad I hear how he still talks about the "buffalo Gun". Some of these people can be worked with and educated others are allways afraid of the diffrent.

[Tar Heel]

sometimes you just have to smile and shake your head and encourage them to move on....

^^^^^^^^ yup ^^^^^^^^

[Walter Laich]

Have run into these types for years. Guess that's why like to be away from the masses when I go to a range

[dragonrider]

You would be surprised at how many of them reside in Ma. ..........Well maybe you wouldn't.

[dragon813gt]

You would be surprised at how many of them reside in Ma. ..........Well maybe you wouldn't.

You're right and to top it off they have that accent ;)

We need to stop protecting the stupid from themselves. Nature will take care of this problem for us.

[Beerd]

I really enjoy some of those people at times. ...... there are alot .... that will come over during Down time and ask to look at the rifles and ask what Im doing. They are curious wanting to learn and also interested in all the aspects. One gentleman was there with his son ( probably 14-15) and both were very interested in these turn of the century rifles. I talked to the Dad and set the boy up behind the rifle had him dry fire a few times working with him, walked him thru the operation of it. Handed him the first round and he loaded the rifle got down behind it onthe bench and at the boom and thud of the recoil he had a smile an undertaker couldnt remove. He fired 4 more rounds at 200 yds and was just over joyed with it. When I bump into his dad I hear how he still talks about the "buffalo Gun".


Good fer you.
I'll bet there is more than one person on this board that got hooked on an aspect of shooting the very same way.
..

[GP100man]

The 1s that are genuinely interested & want to learn I accomidate em a bit, the 1s that try to tell me otherwise , well , I`m country , I`ll leave it at that !

GP

[jmort]

Another reason I like to keep to myself. After I realized the guy had an agenda (I assume people have good intentions) I would not have been civil.

[freebullet]

It doesn't bother me, As long as everyone is practicing range safety and not being rude or vulgar. I can't count the number of kids and father's that I let shoot my guns as their first black powder, ar, or whatever else I brought that they haven't had a chance to shoot. The smiles are priceless and I wouldn't trade them for anything.

[Yodogsandman]

I predict that as factory ammo supplies rebound, we'll see more and more people returning to the shooting ranges. Lots of new shooters, too.

Good on you country gent for being an ambassador of our sport.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm a member of a local club but I have other places to shoot as well. I try to go when I can have the range to myself; there are several ranges on the property so that helps. Usually I try to keep to myself. It really annoys me when somebody has an uncontrollable urge to correct me when they don't have a clue what I'm doing. (checking to see if a new load cycles the action, fire lapping a bore, checking a series of rounds to see which load shoots point of aim, etc.)
Sometimes they have some knowledge that they are willing to share and I'm always willing to listen to that. More often than not, they are dumber than a bag of hammers and just annoying.
I try hard not to be "that guy" and only offer advice or assistance if it's requested or there's a safety issue.

One time I watched a guy insert a loaded magazine into a full auto Uzi and then attempt to force the bolt forward. I told him that it fired from an open bolt and the bolt would close when he pulled the trigger. He pointed it downrange and put several uncontrolled rounds OVER the berm, I packed up and quickly left. Sometimes it better to just shut up and move on.

[waksupi]

When you get someone being "helpful", just tell them the last two rifles you tried this load in blew up, and they may want to step away a bit. See what reaction you get!

[tomme boy]

I actually like guys like that. I on purpose like to test them and show them how big of a idiot that they are. Same way with the guys that are picking up brass to scrap. They always tell everyone that they are reloaders, then I ask them a few questions and then then show them how stupid they are. Everyone runs them off after that.

[Slatewiper]

It's been raining all week so I didn't get a chance to get out to the range until today. The place was one big mud hole with standing water covering most of the ground between the benches and the target boards. All kinds of new faces, mostly hunters there for their annual sighting in of their deer rifles. Usually I try to only go to the range on Mon - Fri just to avoid the crowds. I guess I have to add Christmas eve to the list of days to avoid.

Usually when people see me shooting cast bullets they walk over to my bench and check them out, sometimes ask a question or tell of their experiences with cast bullets. Today was my first experience with someone who completely rejected the thought of shooting cast bullets in a rifle. He walked up to my bench at first just to have a look at my rifle but then when he saw the cast loads in my box immediately asked how my loads were performing. I said they were shooting OK but still not to my satisfaction yet.

He then stated I should go buy some good jacketed bullets. I said these rounds only cost me around 10 cents a piece (pulling a number out of my ***). He then explained that a primer costs 4 cents ( to which I agreed ) and stated "40 gr of powder costs......". That's where I cut him off and told him I was only using 21 gr of powder. He then asked what powder I was using and I told him IMR4227 to which he responded by pulling a burn rate chart out and began searching vigorously for the offending powder.

He eventually found it toward the top of the chart and proclaimed it to be too fast of a powder to use in rifle cartridges safely. At this point I was beginning to get a bit frustrated at the unwanted help I was getting and thought seriously of telling him of my past loads with SR7625 to see if I could make his heart give out therefore ending the conversation. Instead I gently suggested reloading cast bullets follows and entirely different set of rules and that my loads could all be found in a Lyman book. To that he had no response although I could now see the frustration in HIS face.

I've had past experiences with people at the range all too willing to impose on me their wealth of information but today's experience was by far the most aggravating.

What rifles were you shooting? Just curious.

[RJH]

I always like hearing people's "advice" at gun ranges, gun shops, and gun shows. It amazes me how misinformed people are.

[dtknowles]

Some of the conversations you overhear at the range just boggle the mind.

Tim

[35 shooter]

Clinton i well understand about the "unwanted help" thing at the range. I usually get one or two like that every trip. I know they mean well, but it does get aggravating after awhile.
I try to answer their questions patiently and make a point of showing them a clean bore and a few
'tight groups" after a shooting session. It took about a year of shooting cast in my rifle at my little hole in the woods public range for folks to start accepting the fact i wasn't switching back to jacketed and those cast boolits could actually shoot without leading and shoot accurately.
After two years of shooting there now, i've actually made some converts.They're not casting yet, but a few have ordered some cast boolits to try in their rifles.
I get more questions now than the usual comments...although a few still shake their heads when i show up....that's allright though...i love it!

[daniel lawecki]

Then there's the people who need help and won't take advice. Like the man shooting his 454 saw his hand on top of the gun scope even with the cylinder gap on a revolver. I said Sir I would move my hand if I were you. He told me he was a NRA instructor and he pulled the trigger. To his surprise those hot gasses and flame from the cylinder gap did a number on the palm of his hand. Well I did bother to tell where the first Aid Kit was.

[Clinton]

What rifles were you shooting? Just curious.

Still working with my sporterized mauser.
125225

[opos]

I wear foam ear plugs under my ear muffs...when some chatter comes along I just point at the ear muffs and shake my head no and say "I can't hear you" and just go back to to what I'm doing...if they continue I'll pull the muffs off...pull one plug out...tell them I'm on a short time frame and want to continue...then back go the foamies, on go the muffs and I jsut go back to shooting...never had on stick around after the muffs come off.

[redriverhunter]

I had a guy once let me know that my marlin 30.30 would not group well. I was shooting some cast boolits and I managed to shoot a clover leaf at hundred yards (have not been able to do it again yet). When we went down to check targets to his surprise my groups was much better than his. I did not bring it to his attention that my groups were better, I just said this will do fine for hunting hogs.

[swheeler]

ID ten T they are among us!

[1Shirt]

Am always amazed at the one who wants to point out my deficiencies of shooting cast bullets with his vast experience of maybe a year or so. I asked one like that awhile back how long he had been reloading, and how many cartridges he reloaded for. The answer was he loaded for 30-06, and 30-30, and had been reloading for nearly 2 years. I guess I just sort of smiled, and he then asked me how long I had been reloading and how many cartridges I reloaded for? When I answered that I had been reloading/casting for over 55 years, and that I reloaded for over 25 different cartridges, he got a sheepish look on his face, and just sort of walked away.
In general, I also try to shoot early in the morning on week days, and try to be on the range by 8:00 a.m. Usually the only other shooters out at that time are serious and experienced and I know most of them. Almost always avoid shooters who are shooting factory ammo, unless they are throwing brass away, and if so, am there to snarf it up after they leave.
1Shirt

[daengmei]

We have a public range here that has "tubes" to shoot through. It does limit the out of impact firing that occurs almost everywhere, but it was not well planned and you have to be small like a child to shoot with a normal bench rest posture. So I decided taking my daughter there would be in her favor for her first firing. Put targets at the 25yd line to fire .22, .556. She was doing well and when we had a clear we checked the targets. Once back one of the "brass collectors" politely told me that we weren't allowed to shoot any distance but 100yds, since the range had been declared unsafe for ricochet at the shorter ranges. His buddy was a "park ranger" and that was the tale. I asked why the range rules posted where everyone could read did not include that info, why the checkin shack didn't have those rules posted and weren't discussing this when you paid, and if it was so important why the web site hadn't posted it? Without really listening to his reply I said I was continuing firing with my daughter. Must have had his "buddy ranger" on speed dial cause he showed up in about 5 minutes. With a little discussion he told me that they could only recommend that we didn't shoot at the other range lines....no formal action had yet been taken on the shorter lines. Now all through this my daughter was amazed that her "red neck" daddy had been so well behaved. She just said something about the idiot shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Thankfully she learned a lot that day. I go there when the weather is bad to keep to my self and every time I ask about the limited firing the checkin says they've never heard about it. Probably won't see that fool till next "deer season sitein". Can't wait!

[salpal48]

I to get several so called shooters that always know what best for you I generally listen for about 1 min they tell me that my rifle is too old or did i have it checked out or where i got that ammo i then tell them I would listen when they pay my range fee for wasting my time always with a smile i found in the shooting sports there is aways an idiot who knows best
Sal

[Jack Stanley]

I just love hearing the ways you guys deal with numbskulls ;-) It sounds like you all just politely smile and nod as if they just got out of a mental hospital ......... maybe some of them did !!

Jack

[ruizhernandeztrust]

This problem is worst in trap and skeet fields. Everyone is a "ballistic expert" :-P

[curator]

I have had gun-club members insist that I stop shooting black powder .45 Colt loads because they were sure they were seriously over loaded. When I explained my situation and continued, they packed up and made a formal complaint to the club management. I did get them (club committee) to eventually side with me but not before some delicate negotiations. Cast boolits are outside their comfort zone so I never show anyone what I am doing or explain my loading process. You can't convert everyone, so don't try. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[GLL]

When you get someone being "helpful", just tell them the last two rifles you tried this load in blew up, and they may want to step away a bit. See what reaction you get!

:) :)

I have got to try that technique !

Jerry

[Clinton]

:) :)

I have got to try that technique !

Jerry

Yeah that one's pretty good. :)

[Blackwater]

It's gone out of fashion to inquire, think and learn. Now, it's all about following the crowd, without any thought at all of just where that crowd is going or what they're doing, or will be doing. But they sure do know it all. If you don't believe it, just ask them! There actually was a time when humility and honest curiosity and inquiry reigned over most folks' lives, but no more. A big part of it is Madison Ave. advertising. They have us salivating like Pavlov's dogs. Think???? What? ME worry???? Sheesh! Now you've gone an' kilt all my Christmas spirit! Maybe not. I'm over it now. Can't let the blind ruin a holy day, can we?

[runfiverun]

I rarely have these issues.
I do see many of the same people at the range [hard not to when the whole county only has 5,000 people] and they are interested in my latest venture. [and I theirs]
some they think are unobtainable but have seen the past successes and say nothing negative.

[dtknowles]

I have had interactions go both ways. Some are curious and want to learn and some who think they are experts and closed minded. I sometimes initiate discussion with others at the range but am sensitive to their interest and if they seem the least bit like they want me to buzz off, I gladly will. I see others struggling I offer help but am careful not to treat them like I think they are idiots.

Tim

[William Yanda]

Didn't Will Rogers say something like "Too many people "know" things that just aren't so"

[Eddie2002]

The range officers at the local county run range pretty much leave me alone. They know I shoot cast at the 50 yd range and pick brass when possible. They get a kick when I break out my Arisakas and Mosin and plink all day. Most of the other shooters don't bother me except to ask why my rounds sound like a .22 rimfire. A few have looked at me strange and gone back to thier stations after I tell them I"m shooting cast plinkers. So far nobody has put thier nose in my face about how wrong I am, don't know what I would say if someone got an attitude, maybe let him shoot a few rounds if he wasn't a total butt hole. I really think most people don't realize how much fun casting and shooting your own boolits can be, it is outside thier comfort zone. I always bring one rifle with condum bullets just to make a little noise on the 100 yd range and work on full loads.

[fast ronnie]

One of the volunteers at our local range was working as range officer one day when I went out to try out a "new" rifle. I hadn't been back shooting for a while (about 30 years) and was having a LOT of difficulty with a new load I was trying. He recognized I was having trouble and He spotted for me most of the afternoon. He is there on most any saturday, and I'm not hte only one he helps. He invited me to come to his house and go thru two of my rifles with a borescope. Again, he spent most of an afternoon going over those two old mausers. Him and I have become friends over the last months. Sometimes help is greatly appreciated. I have NEVER seen him push help on anyone, but he is sure dedicated to helping others IF THEY ASK. I was ready to give up on that old "93" and get rid of it. Without him, I probably would have given up on the gun I now shoot most often. (turned out the problem was that rifle didn't like that particular bullet. I couldn't get more than ten holes in a 15" target at 100 yds. in 40 rounds.) Thanks to some help from one of the good guys, I can at least get along with that old beast. I have several other rifles (mosinitis?) (mauseritis?) but he kept that one from going away!

[country gent]

There is normally the same group at our range on a given day its kind of interesting but the same groups seem to gravitate together. And saturdays and Sundays these groups change thru out the day every couple hours. If I see someone struggling I will offer help and information if possible. A member having trouble getting on paper or zeroed Ill voulenteer to spot for him, I also take my spare Kowa spotting scope along to loan to members that dont have a spotting scope. This simple act helps to save on clear times as they can see hits and not have to go to targets as often. I have had issues with some and when a veryselect few are there already Ill wait until they leave or come back another day. I also try to correct poor saftey habits and or handling. Last one I asked the gentleman politly to watch his muzzle direction a little closer and was informed loudly by him Im a US Marshall and I know what Im doing. I told him I had looked down his muzzle 3 times already. cased my rifle and moved gear back went to club house and played cards till he was done. I will offer help and point out issues, I refuse to get into a yelling match. Te old timers at the club are good for alot of information. One has been casting since the early 60s. One shot high power when the garands were coming on heavy.

[mac266]

Yep, the range know-it-all.

[Blammer]

My famous line that usually quiets and offender is, "Stop telling me what I can't do while I'm doing it, it's just plain annoying."

[plainsman456]

Had to be someone from north of the bay!:bigsmyl2:

Seen a few myself,been told i would blow the rifle up or worse.

By the way i lived most of my childhood in and around Biloxi.

Wished i was there now with the rest of my brothers and sisters and Dear MOM.

[Shiloh]

There are always the naysayers. My cast buulet and jacketed hand-gun accuracy are virtually the same. It is better at long range with the better jacketed bullets. Some time and effort, that will change.

Shilloh

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Most of the experiences I have read here are just the opposite of mine. Buckshot and I usually go to the range every three weeks. Our interruptions usually go like this. Excuse me sir but I am having a hard time getting on target, could you help me? The last one took Buckshot and I about 3/4 hour to fix. The man had replaced his rifle scope after several years and turned it 90 degrees out of phase. The windage adjustment knob was on top. The man was shooting a 270 and didn't reload although he had been reading gun magazines since the days of Jack O'Conner, hence the .270. He shot three boxes of new ammo and gave me all the brass. I don't own a rifle in the caliber but I took it anyway. Didn't want to hurt his feelings.

[Bucking the Tiger]

There is a healthy amount of this type where I shoot. They can be irritating at times, but I like to watch them sometimes for the fun of it.
They really don't make it to the range on a regular basis, are well marketed to( "if I have this gun I am somebody!"), and really fall short on practical experience. I notice that attitude is higher when wisdom is lower.
The group on this forum, by their very nature, have traveled far down the road on the subject of shooting. Casting your own is to have an intimate knowledge of how firearm, ammunition, and shooter all function collectively together.
I am torn about the shade tree shooters. They have a common interest with me, but their ignorance can be shocking.
I profess no superior knowledge on shooting, but seeing these fellows shows me how far I have come.
It is like "Kung Fu": When you can take the pebbles from my hand, you are free to go.

[mdi]

For me at least, shooting is a solitary sport, not a group affair. I usually don't talk much to anyone when my guns are out. After the session for me is over, mebbe a bit of polite chatting, but not always (I'm fortunate now that I don't have to go to a public range so I usually don't have to talk to anyone!). I have learned to just smile and say thank you as I turn away from the local range rat/all around shooting expert/ballistic pro. Same goes for the Gun Shop Guru that will "OK" your purchase of powder and/or bullets, or tell you what loads you should be using...

[pjames32]

Guess I'm lucky. I shoot at a private range, usually weekday mornings. Most old geezers like myself. If I see someone shooting something unusual or BP I may walk over and watch a few shots and give them a thumbs up. Sometimes I'll offer to spot or help someone with a young shooter. Mostly I just do my own thing.
PJ

[Down South]

Sometimes, it's best to just not answer questions.

[dilly]

You can always pretend your hearing protection is blocking out your ability to hear their nonsense. I often wear plugs+muffs and it's not far from true.

[303Guy]

Not at a range but my buddy once was quite adamant that cast boolits cannot work because; "Think about it, how is the soft lead going to grip the rifling". "What about a 22?" "No but that's different". Huh?!! Well, when he saw my first group he was rather silent. :mrgreen:

Do folks who think reloading is dangerous not realise that factory ammunition does not grow on trees? Someone loaded the stuff (well, operated the machine)

[gcsteve]

I don't get asked questions very often at the private club I belong to, and no one has ever offered to give me unsolictied advice. I generally go at the same time each trip, so I often see the same few guys there, and they all cast and reload, but no one seems interested in sharing casting and loading info or insights. I've tried to discuss these things with these guys, but usually they just don't offer up too much.

One time I asked one of the guys what reloads he was shooting that day. Turns out he was shooting up some old 38 special that he had loaded many years ago. As I also reload 38 special I inquired further about his loads. H had no idea what the bullet was other than a LSWC, no idea of the powder or charge weight, or even an approximate date that he loaded them.

Flipping the coin to the other side, some folks ask for help and then outright dismiss it when its offered. One day one of the guys was complaining about getting huge groups with his reloads, but nice tight groups with jacketed factory ammo. Turns out he was shooting extremely light loads (barely cycled the action) in an effort to reduce recoil so he could get back on target quicker (competive shooter wanna be). His loads were well below starting loads. While chatting I gave him some loading suggestions, but on the advice of another reloader he was thinking he would modify the gun first. But that's ok; it's his gun and he's free to enjoy a self impossed teaching moment.

The only time I have ever been concerned at the range was when one of the shooters (a reloader) had a squib. He recogonized it right away, made the gun safe, and asked me if I had anything he could use to drive bullet out of the barrel. I did, and while we were clearing the obstruction we chatted about his loads. All seemed pretty normal to me. Back to shooting, and a few minutes later he had another squib from the same batch. I helped him out again, and suggeted that maybe he pull the rest of the batch. He wanted to just shoot up the rest of the box, so I just packed up and left the range. I didn't want to be around in the event that he might not notice another squib.

[62chevy]

I actually like guys like that. I on purpose like to test them and show them how big of a idiot that they are. Same way with the guys that are picking up brass to scrap. They always tell everyone that they are reloaders, then I ask them a few questions and then then show them how stupid they are. Everyone runs them off after that.

hadn't thought about people picking brass to scrap. It would be okay for rim fire but not center fire, of course the guys using 22s for swaging might disagree.

[Landshark9025]

If any of you guys are in Florida and see a middle aged man, who looks like he just started shooting again a couple of years ago after about 30 years off, and is doing what he can to learn casting and reloading...if he asks any dumb questions can you cut me....er....I mean "him" some slack? :bigsmyl2:

Especially if you are shooting cast out of a Mosin. I have an M-44 and shooting cast out of that is a goal for late 2015 or 2016. The goal is to have fist sized or smaller groups at 50 yarda with open sights without getting beat to death.
Need to get super confident in the whole process with my handguns first.

Appreciate all the help here, for sure.

Thanks :)

[dtknowles]

I don't get asked questions very often .........rest of the box, so I just packed up and left the range. I didn't want to be around in the event that he might not notice another squib.

Is the revolver in your avatar a Merwin Hulbert? Does the spur on the hammer fold? What caliber is it? I have one in 38 S&W but I would like a big one.

Tim

[sw282]

l will never forget this guy at the range with his Ruger Blackhawk in 30 Carbine and his first box of reloads.. They had this beautiful ROLL crimp and he just could not understand why he was getting so many misfires..
After pointing out his error he wanted to argue..He kept saying that's how he loaded his 38 Specials. l think that was the last time l offered him advice

[MtGun44]

That was Ronald Reagan, not Will Rogers.

I'm glad I shoot on a private club range in Kansas. I'm sure we have our shooting idiots, but they
seem to be pretty thin on the ground here compared to back east.

Bill

[303Guy]

Ronald Reagan said of liberals, "it's not they are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that simply aint so". Or something like that. It struck a true note to me.

[Outpost75]

I try to make it a point never to engage in conversation with anyone who is educated beyond their intelligence.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

You can usually tell someone who is curious from the occasional horse's *** pretty quickly. I just tell the HA I am busy and for him to move on...

What's that saying, "those of you who think you know everything are particularly annoying to those of us who have Google".

[leadman]

I've been shooting at the same public range since about 1982 so know some of the older range officers. One day there was a new guy on the line, probably 40 years old. He was looking at my bench so on the break he asked me what I was shooting. Told him cast in my 223 Contender. I showed him one of the Hi-Tek coated boolits and at first he thought it was jacketed. One of the old guys came over and told him it was cast. The new guy asked what velocity I was getting and I said over 3,600 fps. Of course he did not quite believe it, along with the old guy. They watched my Chrony screen for a couple of shots and finally believed it. This happened to be the day I was testing a new coating on heat treated linotype.

I do get the guys that don't believe that small groups and no leading are possible, but I usually shoot smaller groups then them so there is not alot of discussion after they see my targets.
I have let other shoot my guns, especially if they have kids along that are getting pounded by hi-power rifles. I helped one guy make up reduced jacketed loads for his young son.

[dudel]

That what hearing protectors are for. Put them on, point to them, and commence firing. If he can talk over your gun, get a bigger gun. Nothing says you have to play their game.

[Green Frog]

My favorite story along these lines didn't involve a whole lot of talking. An older gentleman was at the range with his grandson(?) blazing away at about 50 yards with a scoped 30-30 and factory ammo and having trouble staying on paper (from the bench, no less.) I unlimbered my old original high wall plain sporter with tang and globe sights and proceeded to shoot skeet birds I placed on the berm at 125 yds... offhand no less! I just wish I could shoot like that every day!

Of course I was using bullets I cast in rounds I loaded myself that day, as usual. Not very much was said. It wasn't really needed. Sometimes it's best to just shut up and shoot, and let opinions form afterwards.

Froggie

[lightman]

I usually enter into these deals carefully, just in case there is an opportunity to help a struggling newby. If the guy turns out to be a AH I usually find a way to end the conversation pretty quickly. Usually some variation of " I'm short on time and need to get back to town, better grab your muffs because I'm going hot".

I live is a small place and we have a private range, on private property, so this is not as much of a problem as you have at public ranges. The few times that we have any problems I just ask "problem child" if they have talked to "the owner". Usually anyone I run into, I already know. Most others end up needing help, mostly shooting hard kicking rifles that they are afraid of, and leave their brass when they are done! Win-Win!

[Shiloh]

There are a group of us at the range who shoot cast. Fortunately there are very few who make negative and un-educated comments.

When I have a naysayer, I just show them the targets. I carried a target for a long time that was shot with my
1898 Krag NRA carbine. This was from one of those days that was bright and overcast. No shadows, just diffused light.
I shoot my best with iron sights in these conditions.

Out of 50 shots on an SR-1 100 yard target, 43 in the black 7 in the white, and the center shot out of it.
'Nuff said.

Shiloh

[LeRoy.Beans]

l will never forget this guy at the range with his Ruger Blackhawk in 30 Carbine and his first box of reloads.. They had this beautiful ROLL crimp and he just could not understand why he was getting so many misfires.

Okay, so I'll bite. What's wrong with a roll crimp? I use them all the time. Never have misfires either. How does a roll crimp cause misfires?

[fishhawk]

There are some cases like the 30 carbine the 45 acp the 9MM that head space on the case mouth not on a rim like the 30-30 or the shoulder like the 30-06 so what happens is the case goes into the chamber to far.

[rondog]

This is why I love my club and range! It's so far away and remote that there's rarely a crowd there. There's numerous individual ranges of various distances, so I can usually have a whole range all to myself, I've only had to share one a couple of times. Now, the longer high-power ranges are more communal, but still usually empty.

And the time/distance to get there, plus the cost and restricted access, means the membership has a lower percentage of yahoos than any public access shooting hole. Most know their stuff and respect each others privacy.

[brassrat]

There are some cases like the 30 carbine the 45 acp the 9MM that head space on the case mouth not on a rim like the 30-30 or the shoulder like the 30-06 so what happens is the case goes into the chamber to far.


For years, a school teacher/ 9mm loader has insisted that 9mm will headspace (no clue) on the rim ( no rim). I gave up explaining. Another guy (good shot) last week was continuing to laugh at me while shooting my High Standard Trophy. I had numerous problems with my self gunsmithing and wrong/defective parts. Now my gun is 100% and his new semi was around 10%. He stated that he would not accept my offer to gunsmith (joke) his gun because he wants reliabilty. Irony

ps guy #1 also insists that my .38 WCs are too flat and will never shoot well, only pointy bullets can properly cut thru the air.

[LeRoy.Beans]

Okay, so I'll bite. What's wrong with a roll crimp? I use them all the time. Never have misfires either. How does a roll crimp cause misfires?


There are some cases like the 30 carbine the 45 acp the 9MM that head space on the case mouth not on a rim like the 30-30 or the shoulder like the 30-06 so what happens is the case goes into the chamber to far.
Thanks. I never knew.

Cases w/o rims are news to me

[Down South]

There are some cases like the 30 carbine the 45 acp the 9MM that head space on the case mouth not on a rim like the 30-30 or the shoulder like the 30-06 so what happens is the case goes into the chamber to far.
I have picked up a number of those unfired rounds off the range. I have found some that the taper crimp was so tight that the case mouth slipped into the chamber as well causing a no fire. I pick em up, look at them and shake my head. I collect them to my pile of boolits to be pulled or use them for show and tell.

[gunoil]

I dont have that prob, they just druell and smile at me. Especially their girlfriends. Ive shot 20K reloads there. No problems. Wensdays is ladies day. We have a well armed women club here that want to come over to shop and learn reloading casting, etc..

[Akheloce]

The most recent time I went to a public range was January of 2012. I only went because some friends at work wanted to make a social event of it.

The range safety officer told me stop shooting cast SWC in my 1911 cause "you're gonna lead that thing up and it'll blow."

I replied "you're a Fu**ing idiot. Go away."

He told me to leave and I did. Haven't been back to a public range since- don't miss it.

[303Guy]

Did he not allow 22lr on the range either? Those things lead up something awful and blow up all the time! What an idiot. And he was a qualified range safety officer?

[Akheloce]

Did he not allow 22lr on the range either? Those things lead up something awful and blow up all the time! What an idiot. And he was a qualified range safety officer?

He was the guy wearing the yellow tinted glasses, electronic ears, open carrying a Kimber pro carry in a high ride OWB holster walking from shooter to shooter "checking up on everyone."

This is the same guy, when giving the safety orientation said "45 Colt is the maximum caliber on our range"- a shooter said "I have a 45 Witness, is that ok?" He relied : "as long as it's smaller than 45 Colt"

I should have known what I was getting into.

Edited to add: those SWC's were undersized and leaded pretty bad ;)

[dtknowles]

For years, a school teacher/ 9mm loader has insisted that 9mm will headspace (no clue) on the rim ( no rim). I gave up explaining. Another guy (good shot) last week was continuing to laugh at me while shooting my High Standard Trophy. I had numerous problems with my self gunsmithing and wrong/defective parts. Now my gun is 100% and his new semi was around 10%. He stated that he would not accept my offer to gunsmith (joke) his gun because he wants reliabilty. Irony

ps guy #1 also insists that my .38 WCs are too flat and will never shoot well, only pointy bullets can properly cut thru the air.

He is not completely wrong about the full wad cutters. They do not shoot well at longer ranges, they are aerodynamically problematic, the flow separates too far forward on the bullet so the buffet will make them inaccurate.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Thanks. I never knew.

Cases w/o rims are news to me

A case is considered rimless if the diameter of the head is equal to the diameter of the case just ahead of the extractor groove unless it has a belt just ahead of the groove then it is a belted case. People will still refer to the rim on a rimless case, the nomenclature is not completely consistent. Rimless cases don't have to headspace on the case mouth. In some revolvers they headspace on "Moon Clip" and in many firearms they actually headspace on the extractor even if the design intended some other method of headspacing.

Tim

[flyingmonkey35]

I have to chime in on this, the only time I to the public range is to shoot rifles.

The rest of the time it's a small private indoor range.

Last time I out shoot at the public range I was shooting cast 9mm out of my Beretta 3 inch.

Cast a powder coated in a rainbow of colors.

Some one complained that my lead was splattering on the steel gongs.

I was shooting at 25 an 50 yards.

Range master came over and was impressed.

Asked about leading. I field stripped it ran a patch thru it once and handed it to him.

The look on his face was priceless. It was clean.

Told the other guy to move to a different station.

[murf205]

Well, I guess (know) that I'm very fortunate to belong to a big gun club here and it has some of the most knowledgeable shooters you will ever run across. From rimfire to Hi-Power match to benchrest , cowboy action, pistol shooters of every discipline--you name it and they're as great a bunch of men AND women you could ever shoot with. Very safe and considerate and that attitude is contagious. Believe me I know, I've been shooting there since 1973 and I've learned so much from these older shooters it's unbelievable, but I learned it by ASKING and LISTENING, not by spouting off about what I thought to be true. But... I've also visited a public range that's only a few miles from my house and have darned near been shot. The favorite pastime for these nit-wits is to handle a gun while someone is down range-- and they get offended if you ask them to stop!! Never again..
Murf

[selpaw]

I usually find most people are really curious about cast bullets if they haven't experienced them. The people who are willing to ask dumb questions are the smart ones. It's much like standing around in a gunshop and listening to the experts expound on one aspect of shooting or another. The ones who "know all about it" are generally the ones who don't know ****. But that's not confined to shooting sports. Used to be quite involved in bicycling and really enjoyed buying new parts and gadgets. It was amazing to lurk in the bikeshop and listen to some "expert" salesperson talk to a new customer and feed them a line of ****. selpaw

[TXGunNut]

I'll answer any reasonable question and try to clear up some misconceptions. If I run into Mr Knowitall I'll admit to being an idiot and go on about my business and hope he goes on about his. ;-) We have lots of benchrest shooters at my private range (especially after a new record was set there recently) and when they see my leverguns or lead boolits they just walk away shaking their heads. I listen to the silliness that sometimes passes for wisdom in that crowd and realize that it's just as well, lol.

[wiliamr]

A couple months ago at the private club I belong to, I had my Sharps in 45-70 out and was shooting BP with 500 gr. bullets. Some genius self appointed range safety person, came running down and told me to stop shooting, my gun was making a really terrible sound, he was afraid it was trying to blow up. I short of looked at him and it took a moment to figure out he was serious and really scared. I pointed out to him I was shooting BP and it was going to go BOOOM and smoke and throw fire out the muzzle. He began to argue with me about no guns now a days fired black powder, you couldnt get it as it was considered like dynamite, and a long litany of BS. I finally had enough and told him To go back to his gun and leave me the heck alone until he gained some knowledge I was pretty annoyed. He stepped back and I touched one off, and the fool tried to grab my rifle from my hands. Lets just say, he and I are never going to take meals together. I havent been back cause I am pretty fed up. Out of the last 5 times out there 5 had unsafe people or this nut case out.

[dtknowles]

A couple months ago at the private club I belong to, I had my Sharps in 45-70 out and was shooting BP with 500 gr. bullets. Some genius self appointed range safety person, came running down and told me to stop shooting, my gun was making a really terrible sound, he was afraid it was trying to blow up. I short of looked at him and it took a moment to figure out he was serious and really scared. I pointed out to him I was shooting BP and it was going to go BOOOM and smoke and throw fire out the muzzle. He began to argue with me about no guns now a days fired black powder, you couldnt get it as it was considered like dynamite, and a long litany of BS. I finally had enough and told him To go back to his gun and leave me the heck alone until he gained some knowledge I was pretty annoyed. He stepped back and I touched one off, and the fool tried to grab my rifle from my hands. Lets just say, he and I are never going to take meals together. I havent been back cause I am pretty fed up. Out of the last 5 times out there 5 had unsafe people or this nut case out.

I was shooting my 450 Black Powder Express double rifle at the range about a year ago and one of the range masters told me to not shoot it anymore because the pressures were too high because the primers were backing out of the case. I explained that the loads were fine and that the reason the primers were slightly raised was because there was not enough pressure to overcome the friction of the case against the chamber walls to push the case back against the breach face. He was still concerned so I told him that I would not shoot it anymore while he was on duty. I put the gun back in the rack and went on to shoot something else. He later came back and told me that I could shoot it, he decided maybe it was safe after all. I think he talked to other range officers and got more comfortable. I will not do anything at the range to cause trouble for the range staff. I spent some time telling him about the load and my previous range trips with that gun.

Tim

[Shiloh]

I have to chime in on this, the only time I to the public range is to shoot rifles.

The rest of the time it's a small private indoor range.

Last time I out shoot at the public range I was shooting cast 9mm out of my Beretta 3 inch.

Cast a powder coated in a rainbow of colors.

Some one complained that my lead was splattering on the steel gongs.

I was shooting at 25 an 50 yards.

Range master came over and was impressed.

Asked about leading. I field stripped it ran a patch thru it once and handed it to him.

The look on his face was priceless. It was clean.

Told the other guy to move to a different station.

Love it.
Particularly having the other guy move.

Shiloh

[Dan Cash]

Curator: "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
The shooting community is full of them, even some on this forum.

[fatnhappy]

I always end such conversations with: "I assume I can have your empty brass?"

[kfarm]

Reading this makes me happy I have my own range here on the farm. I do let some friends come and shoot but I've noticed that I'm getting less and less brass as time goes by, I just won't put up with the stuff any more. Bought a AR for the son in law and was going to sight in the scope for him when a friend grabbed it out of my hands and said that's not the way the army does it. Dang George was a good source of 223 and 308. Told him to pack up and leave, now I'm down to only 2 or 3 friends. Never been to a public or private range, I just don't take criticism like I used to when I had a job and had to listen to others.

[dakotashooter2]

It is rare that I encounter anyone that want's to have anything to do with cast bullets. When I tell them I am shooting cast I get the "your a moron" look........ and they walk away. Suits me fine because it leaves most of the local lead supply to me.........................

[flyingmonkey35]

Reading this makes me happy I have my own range here on the farm. I do let some friends come and shoot but I've noticed that I'm getting less and less brass as time goes by, I just won't put up with the stuff any more. Bought a AR for the son in law and was going to sight in the scope for him when a friend grabbed it out of my hands and said that's not the way the army does it. Dang George was a good source of 223 and 308. Told him to pack up and leave, now I'm down to only 2 or 3 friends. Never been to a public or private range, I just don't take criticism like I used to when I had a job and had to listen to others.


Wait a second. Army (sight in a scope)
Never saw one when I was in. Iron sights only.

Mabey a few spec ops guys might have one but.

All be it this was in the 90s but when I asked the said you get tunnel vision to quick. For standard troops.

[303Guy]

Wait a second. Army (sight in a scope)
Never saw one when I was in. Iron sights only.Not only that, what army teaches anyone to grab a gun out of someone's hands? I can see them teaching recruits to do serious bodily harm to anyone who tries!

[Mike Malat]

Wife and I have a membership to an indoor range and also go to a public range for rifles (100yds ) on state property. Been going to the public range since the 80's. Over the years seen some characters and if conditions warrant it, packed up and left but for the most part I enjoy going there. Earlier this year, was shooting cast 45-70's out of my Marlin working up a load (lubed, pc's as well as patched) and a guy stop's over and asked what I was doing. Showed him the loads, He mentions that he has some lead at home, some of it in long ingots and some lead letters that he picked up at an auction. Hmm. what did it look like??? Ended up trading some .223 and 7.62 brass for 38lbs of Linotype and Monotype. We both walked away happy. I'm happy to talk to folks when they come over asking as well as walk over to individuals and point out unsafe practices.

[Boondocker]

I was once told I was wasting my time sand bagging my 1911 at 50 yrds testing my 200swc. Shooting cast would ruin my gun etc etc. The man set up next to me with his 44 mag lever action shooting jackets. I had my 9 in pie plate out there and he had a store bought target. I hit 11 out of 12 and he had half as much in roughly the same amount of shooting. Now I can hardly focus on a pie plate at 25yds lol.

[Shooter6br]

We had a guy at the club who talked very loud and whistled opera. Dropped names of well know shooters" I said to Elmer..." He was a dentist in the military(retired). Just as you were to put the 5th shot on a target he would yell to somebody. Had all the best guns.....custom...Sounded like a cartoon character "Foghorn Leghorn"

[Shooter6br]

Kinda like this.

[atr]

Our club is pretty laid-back,,about 300 members and I'm the only one that shoots cast. And for the most part using cast I can still out-shoot most of the guys who use J's. There are some real boring and not too knowledgeable people who show up at the range, most usually just before the hunting season when they show up to practice the one time before they go hunting.....I avoid these times as much as possible.
Concerning cast and shooting etc., my rule of thumb is to educate not argue. I am also an NRA rifle/pistol instructor so I keep the conversations business like and stress safety on the range. I avoid those long conversations as it interferes with staying focused.

[kfarm]

The rifle I bought him was a bushmaster OCR (optics ready and no front sight) on a Remington family deal. Heck for $405 I'll put on optics. While I was at it I got me a .308 OCR for $550. Just hope I'll get to do that again this year.

[bbqncigars]

I've been shooting at our local members only range since the early seventies. Always reloaded like quite a few members do. We old timers like to talk and check out each others new toys/loads. We're usually amenable to discussing things with newbies unless they're knowitalls. It seems like we're seeing a lot more new members in the last year or so who fall into both categories. Some of them are rather lacking in range etiquette and safety. At least we have clearly posted rules that cover the latter, but some of the slobs need to meet up with a clue by four upside their heads.

[1_Ogre]

ANY range I've ever gone to has had those that have to "PLAY" with their firearms when someone is down range changing targets. When this happens I go to the RO (if there is one) or to the Office (again, if there is one) and make a report. I'm a Life Member of the NRA and Teach both Pistol and CCW. ANYONE that "PLAYS" with their firearms when I'm down range doesn't need to be at that range, and if the problem is not properly handled, that's one Range that doesn't need me neither. Just my comments on an accident waiting to happen.

[mac266]

ANY range I've ever gone to has had those that have to "PLAY" with their firearms when someone is down range changing targets. When this happens I go to the RO (if there is one) or to the Office (again, if there is one) and make a report. I'm a Life Member of the NRA and Teach both Pistol and CCW. ANYONE that "PLAYS" with their firearms when I'm down range doesn't need to be at that range, and if the problem is not properly handled, that's one Range that doesn't need me neither. Just my comments on an accident waiting to happen.

This one falls into the category of, "Well duh." It is commonly accepted range decorum NOT to even touch a gun when others are downrange. This includes ANY type of touching, like making sight adjustments. For the safety and sanity of those downrange, DON'T FREAKING TOUCH IT!!!

Fortunately my club requires NRA membership to join. So, safety violations are rare.

[varmint243]

I gave some unwanted help at the range yesterday
A dad and his son were shooting on the .22 plate range
While I was talking to them the dad mentioned that his son wasn't qualified on the centerfire plate range yet
I asked him if he wanted me to qualify his boy and loaned him my model 14 and some of the 38 H&G wadcutters I had been working on
A couple pointers and a few rounds later we have another person qualified on the centerfire plate range
They are likely coming back to the range again on Thursday and we are going to work on basics some more
They were happy, sometimes it pays to reach out

[FLHTC]

It's been raining all week so I didn't get a chance to get out to the range until today. The place was one big mud hole with standing water covering most of the ground between the benches and the target boards. All kinds of new faces, mostly hunters there for their annual sighting in of their deer rifles. Usually I try to only go to the range on Mon - Fri just to avoid the crowds. I guess I have to add Christmas eve to the list of days to avoid.

Usually when people see me shooting cast bullets they walk over to my bench and check them out, sometimes ask a question or tell of their experiences with cast bullets. Today was my first experience with someone who completely rejected the thought of shooting cast bullets in a rifle. He walked up to my bench at first just to have a look at my rifle but then when he saw the cast loads in my box immediately asked how my loads were performing. I said they were shooting OK but still not to my satisfaction yet.

He then stated I should go buy some good jacketed bullets. I said these rounds only cost me around 10 cents a piece (pulling a number out of my ***). He then explained that a primer costs 4 cents ( to which I agreed ) and stated "40 gr of powder costs......". That's where I cut him off and told him I was only using 21 gr of powder. He then asked what powder I was using and I told him IMR4227 to which he responded by pulling a burn rate chart out and began searching vigorously for the offending powder.

He eventually found it toward the top of the chart and proclaimed it to be too fast of a powder to use in rifle cartridges safely. At this point I was beginning to get a bit frustrated at the unwanted help I was getting and thought seriously of telling him of my past loads with SR7625 to see if I could make his heart give out therefore ending the conversation. Instead I gently suggested reloading cast bullets follows and entirely different set of rules and that my loads could all be found in a Lyman book. To that he had no response although I could now see the frustration in HIS face.

I've had past experiences with people at the range all too willing to impose on me their wealth of information but today's experience was by far the most aggravating.

That even happens on internet message forums. There are "know-it-alls" everywhere. There are so many proprietary cartridge developers that wrote the data we use today and they had nothing to go on, other than their own experimentation when they did it. They could have been called ridiculous names too but because of them, this sport has grown to what it is today. Ackley, Kilbourn, Donaldson, Uglade, etc. They had very little data to use, other than what they gleaned along the way.
I don't even discuss what I do, I just do it. When it works, I'm happy and when it doesn't, I try again. I get no satisfaction in telling the world what I do. The "Know-it-alls" can remain as such, in their own realm.

[Yodogsandman]

ANY range I've ever gone to has had those that have to "PLAY" with their firearms when someone is down range changing targets. When this happens I go to the RO (if there is one) or to the Office (again, if there is one) and make a report. I'm a Life Member of the NRA and Teach both Pistol and CCW. ANYONE that "PLAYS" with their firearms when I'm down range doesn't need to be at that range, and if the problem is not properly handled, that's one Range that doesn't need me neither. Just my comments on an accident waiting to happen.

THIS ^^^^!!! Happened to me both Saturday and Sunday! The first was a member who had 3 guests with him. From the talk, he was the expert and the three had never shot before. I made a mental note to keep my eyes on them. While the three went to get their targets, this "expert" picks up a 30-06, loads a clip in and...I stopped him right there. He had it pointing right at their backs! He apologized and I didn't see another infraction.

On Sunday , a member has this one guest with him.The member goes down to put up his first targets and his guest picked up his new "black rifle" and starts foolin with it. I told him that he shouldn't handle the firearms at all when someone is down range. He agreed and put it down. I turned away and when I looked back, he was at it again! Again, I tell him. Damned if he didn't let go of the gun when he set it down and started fooling with it laying on the bench, again! I walked over with the demeanor of someone that was about to pummel him and told him LOUDLY again not to ever, ever touch another gun when someone was changing targets. No further problems with him. Very chilly atmosphere at the benches after that. I'm sure it affected my groups. You feel like you can't let your guard down and just concentrate on shooting. I did call the chief range officer later. My $.02

[TXGunNut]

The rifle range at my club is dominated by benchrest shooters. Rule there is that they can remove the bolt and tinker to their heart's content during a cold range, just like they do during a match. I disagree, of course, but I find myself a bench as far away as possible. I personally won't even approach a rifle or load cartridges into a detached magazine during a cease fire.