Mid 40s 1894 bore question

[jdrslyr75]

I'm looking for some expert advice/reassurance. This past weekend I began the process of cleaning all copper fouling from the bore of my WWII era Winchester 1894 in anticipation of loading some cast bullet cartridges. After soaking with Hoppe's #9 and getting quite a bit of copper out, I inspected the muzzle with an LED flashlight and this is when I became concerned. The bore was not copper free, but what alarmed me was the tops of the lands appear to have tooling marks running perpendicular to the bore roughly every 1/32". The only products that have ever been used in this rifle for cleaning are Hoppe's #9 and patches. The rifle is a family heirloom purchased new for my grandpa by his father and I have been told the total round count through it is less than 100 (all jacketed). Am I going to be able to shoot cast bullets in this rifle or is it hopeless? Could JB bore compound be used to polish these "rings" smooth? Any help or advice is appreciated.

Jeremy

[fouronesix]

If it has the flat barrel band it will be correct for the "catch up" production that started after the end of WWII as there was no production of the civilian models during the war and some immediate post war models used slightly different parts.

The perpendicular tool marks are somewhat normal for many bores and I wouldn't be too worried about that. You can continue to brush, swab and patch with #9 and it will eventually remove the copper but it may take quite a few reps of soaking overnight and a few days. No matter the method, now is probably a good time to get all the copper out. I'd get all the #9 out then use something a little stronger like Butch's or one of the copper specific solvents. Most all use some ammonia so it's not a good idea to leave it in very long as the ammonia can start to work on the steel.

Simply open the action and turn the gun upside down in a cradle or gun vise. Use a bore/muzzle guard and clean from the muzzle. When I run into a badly copper fouled bore, I dip a brush in Butch's then run it completely through the bore maybe 10-20 times. Let sit for 15 minutes. Run a correct jagged flannel patch through. In direct light, inspect the bore at the muzzle for copper. Repeat with the solvent brush followed by a patch until no copper is visible and no blue is coming out on patch. After using an ammonia cleaner and a bronze brush I clean the brush in acetone otherwise the ammonia will eat the brush in short order.

Then if I want to do a little final clean up of remaining copper wash and/or slightly lap the bore, I apply either Rem Bore Cleaner that has a mild abrasive in oil or JB in oil applied to a fairly tight jagged patch and really work over the bore its entire length. That should remove any remaining copper. Once finished with any bore cleaner or solvent, I like to remove all traces by running a patch with acetone through a few times to make sure. Then use a shotgun mop with acetone to clean the chamber (acetone can attack certain stock finishes so use care). Then run a patch with good oil through the chamber and bore.

After the initial complete bore cleaning, I'll clean the bore at the end of each day's shooting whether it's 5 rounds or 25 rounds. It then becomes easier and easier to clean and maintain the bore. The perpendicular tool marks may not aggravate fouling or hurt accuracy at all and may be actually very smooth on their tops. I've had several rifles with bores that show those marks and many times they are quite "smooth" and actually foul less than a bore that looks perfectly smooth. You'll just have to see how it acts and it's probably best to not get too aggressive with lapping until finding out.

[Scharfschuetze]

I once had a Model 94 of about the same heritage as yours and it too had those pesky perpendicular tool marks on top of the lands. It fouled pretty badly with jacketed boolits and that's when I discovered JB Bore Paste.

If I still had that particular Model 94, I would use one of the abrasive compound lapping kits to smooth things up. Unfortunately, back in the early 70s I don't think such items were available.

Odd that the Model 94s seemed to have suffered that malady as I have a Model 70 and a Model 64, both made in 1941, and both have perfect bores without a hint of a tooling mark.

[fouronesix]

Another thing to think about is the source of the copper fouling (or lead fouling for that matter). The primary culprit may not be the bore surface at all. It could be the leade/throat area. If the throat to bore transition is slightly rough it can scrape copper (or lead) particles from the bullet as it transitions from the case into full bore/land engagement. Those small particles are then suspended in the powder gas plasma that follows the bullet down the bore. Those particles are then deposited on the bore wall somewhere down the bore. It would take a bore scope inspection to really see what's going on over the entire length of the bore surface, especially any roughness in the throat area.

Regular shooting and routine cleaning will, over time, smooth that area which in turn can reduce metal fouling. That smoothing process can take much longer if only shooting lead.

[Outpost75]

Residual marks from the bore reaming left across the tops of the lands after rifling are normal in a cut-rifled barrel. When the rifling is cut, those tool marks will be in the direction of bullet travel and therefore less noticeable. If the circumferential tool marks are no worse than 32 microinch RMS I would not worry about them. In a hunting rifle which is good for no better than about 3 moa under normal conditions, worrying about such things is mental masturbation. This is typical surface finish for a cut rifled barrel of that era. If you look inside an '03 Springfield barrel made about the same time, it won't be any different, unless it was lead-lapped afterwards.

Use of Kroil and Brobst JB paste when cleaning will mitigate the worst of it and with careful use the surface finish will be gradually improved.

[beagle]

I bought an old Marlin .35 Rem with cut rifling that suffered from copper fouling. After several days of cleaning, I let it set for about a week muzzle down and plugged full of solvent. It all came out and I mean I really had some really green corruption from it. I repeated soakings until patches came out clean after being soaked overnight.

The old cut barrels are like that. Before I did anything, I'd get all of the fouling out and then run some cast through it and see how bad the leading would be. You may not have a problem. If you do after that, then attempt to correct it.

Mine was all right after cleaning. Don't think mine had been shot much either. Probably 3-4 rounds a year, oily patch down the barrel and back into to closet.

Good luck on it./beagle

[jdrslyr75]

Thanks for all of the replies! I guess while I'm playing with my new mold (or mould if you prefer) and getting some bullets cast, I will continue soaking my bore and working on getting ALL of the copper fouling out of it. I will follow the advice offered here and hold off on the JB bore paste until after I get some lead down the bore and see if I even have a problem. I really appreciate everyone's replies!

Jeremy

[fouronesix]

Either the Remington Bore Cleaner or the JB will help ensure getting the last traces of copper fouling out of the bore and both are of such fine grit that they won't hurt the bore. They shouldn't be confused with one of the commonly used, more aggressive bore lapping compounds often referred to. Apples to oranges.

[jdrslyr75]

Good to know 416! After a few overnight soakings with good old #9 I hope to be pulling clean patches out of the bore. I will probably work some of the JB no embedding bore compound through the barrel and then soak overnight again, repeating until the bore is squeaky clean. I'm glad to know neither of these products will harm the steel