Walkie talkie advice....

[gew98]

Looking to get some two way handheld radios for around the woods. All the old peices I used to hunt with are DOA with age . So basically a quailty radio - looking to get at least three without being bent over on cost. Any suggestions appreciated. Hell I'd even get used radios if someone had some they no longer needed.

[Bad Water Bill]

I bought a pair of Motorola FV 300 from radio shack last March.

They worked great for about a mile in downtown Springfield Il for our IGOLD march.

Motorola says 10 miles

If they work in a city they should work even better in the woods and they only cost about $23.00 per pair and uuse 3 AAA batteries.

[Outpost75]

Best band for the buck is MURS – this is a VHF 2-way radio which doesn’t need a License

123825

The UHF FRS/GMRS radios are wildly over-rated. You shouldn't believe the advertising claims. They are OK as a minimum-cost radio, within their limitations. Low-power FRS/GMRS UHF radios with a fixed antenna are only reliable from one-half to one mile or so unit-to-unit in average terrain. To get longer range you must have an unobstructed line of sight path between units, no blocking buildings, foliage or terrain. They work great if one station is up high in the clear on a mountaintop talking to somebody down in the valley below, but if you are inside your car talking to somebody else in a convoy, do not depend upon hearing each other if you cannot actually SEE the other car.

The best emergency communication is to get your amateur radio Technican license, then put a 50-watt 2-meter mobile rig in the car, another in the house and carry a 5 watt portable transceiver for walk & talk. Two meter ham rigs offer much more than direct unit-to-unit simplex. Repeaters provide wide-area coverage, linked repeater systems with Voice Over Internet protocols such as EchoLink which can provide transcontinental and even international coverage.

If you aren't interested in studying and taking the exam for a ham license, the next best bang for the buck for local communication within a few miles, is the Multi-Use-Radio Service or MURS. The Business Pool VHF frequencies formerly known as the VHF “color dot” frequencies were moved from Part 90 to Part 95 of the FCC Regulations to become a new Citizens Band Radio Service for private, two-way, short-distance voice or data communications service for personal or business activities of the general public.

MURS is ideal for neighborhood and family emergency communications. No license is needed. Anyone is authorized by rule to operate a MURS transmitter if they are not a foreign government or a representative of a foreign government; they use the transmitter in accordance with the rules. No illegal activity, no profanity, be an adult and play nice. An MURS station is not required to transmit a station identification announcement or callsign. The channels authorized are available on a shared basis only and may not assigned for exclusive use of any entity. Users must cooperate in the selection and use of channels in order to reduce interference and avoid interference to other MURS transmissions. Around cities you will hear fast food drive-in windows, warehouse operations, landscapers and trash collection, building maintenance and construction site crews. The wide-band FM channels 154.57 and 154.60 get more use than the 151 Mhz. narrow-band ones.

MURS operation is authorized anywhere a CB station is authorized.

However, MURS operation is NOT authorized aboard aircraft in flight.

Unlike FRS and GMRS, MURS stations are allowed to transmit either voice or data signals, including digital selective calling or tone-operated squelch tones to establish or continue voice communications, remote control and telemetering functions, except that MURS transmitters may not be operated in the continuous carrier transmit (CW or morse code) mode.

MURS users shall take reasonable precautions to avoid causing harmful interference. This includes monitoring the transmitting frequency for communications in progress and such other measures as may be necessary to minimize the potential for causing interference. This all comes under the general heading of that the FCC calls "good operating practice." It is common sense and courtesy. MURS stations are prohibited from operating as a repeater station or as a signal booster. This prohibition includes store-and-forward packet operation. MURS stations are prohibited from interconnection with the public switched telephone network.

The biggest advantage of MURS over FRS is that you can use a more efficient, elevated antenna with "gain" to increase your useful "radio horizon" and range. A reliable source for MURS antennas is http://www.dpdproductions.com/page_murs.html At VHF frequencies antenna height is more important than transmitter power. The higher the antenna the better the reception. For two hand-held units on flat terrain, standing in the open without foliage, buildings or terrain obstructions, with both transceivers held at face level, theoretical line of sight is 5 miles, which is the best range you can hope for on simplex without improved antennas.

If the transmitting station remains standing with the transceiver held at face level, but the receiving antenna is elevated 25 feet above ground, line of sight range approximately doubles to 11 miles. If the receiving station were standing on top of a 250 foot hill the line of sight range would be about 20 miles. The highest point of any MURS antenna is not allowed to be more than 60 feet above the ground or 20 feet above the highest point of the structure on which it is mounted. Using a 6dB gain vertical antenna, at maximum legal height, fed with low loss coax such as LMR400 on your home base, and having a 3dB gain 5/8 wave mobile antenna mounted up high on the roof of your vehicle, with a good ground plane, you can work mobile-to-base simplex from 10-20 miles, depending upon terrain.

We use these radios for range control and audio is crystal clear below ground down in the pits at 1000 yards back inside the concrete admin building back behind the firing line and also with marine patrol another mile or so out on the river. Much louder and more reliable than the FRS "bubble pack" radios, these are of rugged Mil-Std-810CDE construction for environmental, shock and vibration conditions. They are not "toys" but a professional grade radio.

The frequencies available in the Multi-Use Radio Service are:

Frequencies Authorized Bandwidth
151.820 MHz 11.25 KHz
151.880 MHz 11.25 KHz
151.940 MHz 11.25 KHz
154.570 MHz 20.0 KHz
154.600 MHz 20.0 KHz

Multi-Use Radio Service transmitters must be certificated in accordance with Part 95, Subpart J of the Federal Communication Commission’s rules. Business band land-mobile radio service radio units certificated prior to November 12, 2002 do not be re-certificated. You can buy used, surplus VHF "high-band" business radios and have a commercial 2-way radio shop program them for you into the MURS frequencies and legally use them without a license.

No MURS unit, under any condition of modulation, may exceed 2 Watts transmitter power output. This is not the handicap it may seem, because unlike FRS, there are no antenna restrictions. While it is illegal to use VHF marine band radio on land (read about it here: http://www.mcminnarc.com/marine.html ) antennas designed for and resonant in the VHF Marine band work well because the marine channels are close to those used for the MURS, so Marine band anternas work OK without retuning.

A 3 dB gain 5/8 wave antenna whip, with a good ground plane to the vehicle body, mounted high on your vehicle doubles effective radiated power. On your retreat or vacation cabin erect a 6 dB gain base station vertical antenna on the chimney cap or above the highest point on the structure. This quadruples effective radiated power. A higher gain directional yagi antenna, having at least three, but ideally four elements or more on a boom of at least half wavelength (about 1 meter) gives the longest range in fixed location point-to-point operation. An antenna of 10dB gain, resonant on your working frequency could reliably communicate up to 50 miles with a similarly-equipped station up on high terrain and in the clear.

A reliable source for refurbished business band radios which our CERT team has used is Red Dog Radios which is located in Colorado and can be found readily on the Internet. hey can provide business band ICOM F3S VHF portables reprogrammed for the 5 MURS channels for a little over $100 each, or under $200 with drop-in charger, speaker mic and necessary accessories: http://www.reddogradios.com/icom-ic-f3s-vhf-portable-radio-kit-refurbished.html

If you provide a copy of your ham license they can also program your list of ham 2 meter repeaters and simplex frequencies into the same radio, which is handy.

[popper]

I just use the cheap Midland LXT350 (FRS channels). The person on the other end needs to know push-to-talk. Reasonable performance in low hill & flat land. Like a cell phone, you may need to climb a hill to get 'bars'. Never have much trouble with foliage unless it's really wet. The old 28Mhz CB got too much skip in the Co. mountains to be of use when traveling, even with a full length whip or a broadside/endfire tuned setup. VHF isn't as much LOS as UHF so MURS could work better for you. Inverted V or top hat are cheap to make. The radiation angle is what kills the handheld efficiency - most signal goes 45 deg into the air.

[gew98]

Wow... Ok I am not looking to do any CB junk or crazy com accomodations. Simply put now a good radio set that will do inside 5 miles without going goober on antennas or the damn FCC. I don't want to hump a prick77 around again nor do I want my son or wife to do that either.

[Bad Water Bill]

At 78 years old I do not need or want a complicated, heavy or expensive piece of ??? that I have to go back to school before I can acquire a FEDERAL LICENSE to use ONE day a year.

Before responding I dug out the gadget that cost less than $25.00 per pair and weigh about 3 oz each, hit menu and after sitting a year the battery is still reading full charge and works great.

[Omega]

I have Garmins Rino 120, its an FMRS and gps combined. The great thing about these is that you can see where the other radio(s) is on the gps. Some of these can be found used for cheap on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GARMIN-RINO-120-and-a-GARMIN-RINO-110-/271695178353

[popper]

Gew, PRS is spotty walking about due to the restricted antenna. They are all pretty much the same, mine is just old and discontinued. MURS may be better, you could possibly get a hand-held center fed dipole antenna or stamp antenna array to get better coverage. The PRS held over a partially opened metal frame umbrella will help some, but clumsy. I used a foil covered inverted funnel under the wife's wiifi antenna to increase range. It brings the radiation angle down to about 20 deg vs the 45. You have more options when talking between stands than walking. The other option is the backpacker satphone.

[lawdog941]

Pretty much what outpost was saying is that to get that distance it will need an unobstructed view from radio to radio. Buildings, hills, trees, etc all play into blocking radio traffic unless you want to go 'goober.'

[Blanco]

Outpost 75 covered it so much better than I ever could have.
A club I am a member of uses the MURS freq. radios for field communications. In low power mode they will roughly cover about a square mile. We use the Blue 154.570 (probably the most popular)Frequency radios.
you can find used radios for a pretty decent price.
There are radios that cover the MURS spectrum available on Amazon for cheap, but you would have to be very careful with them as they also cover Ham frequencies that you would need a license to transmit on. I have several of the radios from Amazon and the most expensive one was about $55

[dakotashooter2]

You really have to take the "range" on most of the radios with a "pound" of salt. I've used a Midland supposedly good for 7 miles and a motorola supposedly good for 15 miles. Most days I was lucky to get 100 yards (unobstructed) with the Midland and the best I got with the Motorola was about 2 miles on the lake (unobstructed).

[MaryB]

Mileage figures they quote are free space aka nothing in between whatsoever. Even higher power ham handitalkies are limited in range. The antennas are usually the limiting factor, in order to be flexible they make compromises. But typically the taller the antenna the better it will work.

[Petrol & Powder]

Outpost really covered the topic well.
Getting back to the OP question and his self-imposed 5 mile range requirement, we may have a problem.

Terrain is everything !

FRS is highly overrated by the manufacturers. In real world conditions FRS range is much less than advertised.
On flat empty ground, over water or mountain top to mountain top, long range communication between simplex, FM radios is a piece of cake.
However, if you put some stuff between the radios such as: Mountains, trees, buildings, etc.; even the best radios start to have problems. The simple and often best solution is to place a repeater on the high ground that can "see" the entire operational area. Unfortunately, that is beyond what the FCC will typical allow without a license and a lot of expense.
The next best solution to overcome bad terrain is to take advantage of someone else's solution. Utilize a business radio repeater (requires a license and fee but works), use an existing system (cell phones and cell phone tower if available) or plan your event around the terrain (hunt, hike, etc. only on one side of the obstruction)

Outpost is correct. Power and frequency are totally subservient to antenna height and terrain. Without a repeater to convert terrain from an impediment to a benefit, there is a limit to what can be accomplished. FRS is limited by antenna height, MURS has some advantages if you know how to exploit them.

4 watts of AM on 27 MHz (CB radio) is just as effective as 1/2 watt on UHF (FRS) if there's a mountain between the users and you are using simplex, hand held radios.

If we limit ourselves to handheld radios without the advantage of a repeater on high ground - there's a practical limit to what we can expect.

[quilbilly]

All the FRS type radios are line-of-sight radios. If you can find a location that is perfect (no trees, flat ground, and one end on a hill) they will work pretty close to as advertised. The disaster SAR teams in my previous neighborhood all have them as they do house-to-house triages usually on bicycles then communicate the results to the nearest HAM radio operator who controls 3-4 teams for relay to the incident center. In earthquake country, we assume all landlines and cell coverage will be down so the best method for disaster recovery communications has proven to be the off-the-shelf commercial FRS radios.
Even on flat ground, trees will limit their effectiveness to about 2 miles (if that).
They are a great, valuable tool for hunters and mushroom gathering in the fall. I have had good luck with both Midland and Motorola radios.
For the record, I encourage any neighborhood in earthquake or hurricane country to have this communication system to take care of each other when the SHTF and have a get together once every year or two to test it. - Maybe even inviting the local fire chief to the test would be good. That is what we did and created a good "monster".

[MaryB]

We used FRS up on the lake where mom and dad lived. With 4-7 boats and a herd of people to feed for meals getting everyone in from fishing required a radio reminder to move it or starve until the next meal. They worked okay until anyone went up in the north bay, then you had to hike a 1/4 mile over to that side of the point to get through the trees. And we were up on a hill about 75 feet over the lake.

[oldsagerat]

Outpost75 gave you all the techie details. A decent GMRS/MURS
radio is what I use among my non-Ham friends. Clear FM signal,
simple to use, and works well. If you are over a mile away from
your hunting buddies routinely, then something better is called for.
Keep it simple.

P.S. Extra class ham, system engineer, sheriff's department search and rescue.