Massive 7.85 million recall for popular US gun

[M-Tecs]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/massive-785-million-recall-for-popular-us-gun/ar-BBgoPPI

[jmort]

In the main case in question, a mother took gun out of safety while it was pointed at her 9 year old son. Sad, but avoidable.

[pretzelxx]

That is good read. Let's hope the new design is still smooth, but more safe!!

[freebullet]

I heard of this a while back. I've read if you send in the recalled gun they will put a sweet 8 pound trigger in it for you. I've decided to pass on that and will put an aftermarket trigger in ours. Sad but avoidable situations. What's the first rule of gun safety?

[dragon813gt]

I'm glad they finally admitted it. And sad that many people died and got hurt before they did. It was a coverup decades in the making. Their internal memos prove this but people still act like nothing was wrong. If there was one flaw in Walker's design it's that the trigger is to good.

[starmac]

I heard of this a while back. I've read if you send in the recalled gun they will put a sweet 8 pound trigger in it for you. I've decided to pass on that and will put an aftermarket trigger in ours. Sad but avoidable situations. What's the first rule of gun safety?

If you read about it before, it had to be the x mark trigger. I imagine there were quite a few, but the number pales compared to this recall dating back to the forties.

[runfiverun]

must be the Remington recall.
it's been in effect for a bunch of years.
the designer said it was a bad design before it was even released.

[starmac]

The class action suit that forced this recall was not even filed until 2013, and was just settled in the last day or two. This recall is about to start, not the same one that has gone on for years.

[runfiverun]

good to know...

I got a Remington rifle.
it's pretty/relatively/kinda new, it even has a little j-hook window in the bolt shroud.
i'll have to see what this whole thing is about.

[waltherboy4040]

So this is a new recall unrelated to the recent one with excess epoxy on triggers?

[Multigunner]

I once repaired and refinished an extremely rusty Savage .32 auto pistol. after a good cleaning and freeing up the action I found that if you pulled the trigger while the safety was on it didn't fire but if you then realesed the safety it fired without again touching the trigger.
In that case it was due to the front of the frame having spread so the slide was not held to the frame properly. After squeezing the frame back to its proper dimensions the safety and firing mechanism worked perfectly.
So long as these pistols are in good condition they are as safe as any other pistol but the design allowed a very dangerous situation to develop after much use and little maintenance.

The Remington 700 trigger and safety worked okay almost all the time, but almost just isn't good enough when it comes to firearms safety.
Personally I never liked the look, feel, or finish (matter of taste only, those I've seen close up were too glossy and the grain was obscured) of those Rem 700 rifles I've run across over the years, so I'm unlikely to buy one regardless of whether the safety works or not.
Not saying its a bad rifle, it certainly has an excellent reputation in all other aspects, its just not the rifle for me.

The light trigger pull was a selling point of the 700, they seem to have put trigger pull ahead of safety. I've never seen a hair trigger that would not become unsafe after a bit of wear.
If a man needs a hair trigger to shoot straight he needs to work on his technique.
I used the old target pistol method of balancing .38 Special cases mouth to mouth and putting them between trigger finger and web of the thumb. Motor skills developed that way improve your trigger control with rifles as well.

Better a bit of weight and travel but every thing smooth with crisp break.
A rifle with a hair trigger should only be used on a range and never loaded unless pointed down range with no one lolly gagging around down that way.
A double set trigger is better for hunting.

[Thin Man]

About 25-30 years ago a friend of mine bought a 700 and found that the rifle would fire when cocked, safety engaged, then the safety moved to the fire position without the trigger being touched. This unexplained discharge happened several times over the first year he had the rifle. He finally got mad (scared?) enough to make a complaint to the company which had sold him the rifle, and they communicated with Remington about repairs. Remington's supposed answer was "we would have repaired it for you free, but you waited over a year after the purchase so now we will repair it at YOUR expense." The owner boiled and refused to pay the repair costs and kept the rifle. I offered to put an after-market trigger on the rifle but he refused the offer. I haven't spoken with him in a long time, not sure what he did with the rifle or whether he still owns it. If he still has that rifle it is past time for him to make a responsible decision and have it made safe.

Thin Man

[JSnover]

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-Remington-model700-modelseven.aspx

[tomme boy]

It is more about putting a gun business out of business than anything else. Cars are the same way. Guess why all cars and trucks have to have back up cameras here in a year or two. Because some dumb lady did not look behind her when she was backing up and ran over her kid. Same reason these people shot others, they did not practice gun safety.

[reloader28]

A friend of mine had one of these guns about 5 or 6 years ago. When you took it off safe it would go off.
At least he was smart enough to point it in a safe direction.
Remington fixed it for him back then.

Barber would have done way more for his son by getting shooting lessons for his wife. ANYTIME someone is hit with a bullet, its because the gun was pointed at them, PERIOD.

[kootne]

I had one of those 700's go off in my hands, been nearly 50 years ago now. I still remember the panic I felt. I was 12 or 13 years old and had tried to shoot a deer with the safety on. When I figured out the safety was on and pushed it forward, off it went. Finger was not any where near the trigger at that point. I also have had a number of people over the years walk in front of me when I had a loaded gun in my hands. Right there, I am Mrs. Barber, except both things didn't happen to me at the same time. Anymore, I don't put a shell in the barrel unless I'm ready to shoot and take it out when the opportunity is gone, if I have anybody else around me. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember in Barbers case the kid walked out from behind the truck or a horse trailer just at the wrong time. Is there anybody here who that couldn't have happened to when you are unloading a gun? I guess we should all point them at the ground but how many do?
kootne

[jonp]

If you don't point a firearm at someone its hard to shoot anyone

[trapper9260]

It all come is to that the lube that they use gum up and cause the problem.I have one and talk with my gunsmith about it and he said he will look at it and i went home to bring it in and then he took the gun stock and see where the lube that they use gum up and he said after all is done that I was close to have the problem that is going on now.After he clean the gun complete and all and re lube it the way it should be that I do not have any more thinking about the problem now.

[hithard]

Barber would have done way more for his son by getting shooting lessons for his wife. ANYTIME someone is hit with a bullet, its because the gun was pointed at them, PERIOD.

While yes the rifle may have had some problems, but let's not blame others for your lack of disrespect for safety. Take responsibility for your actions, and lack there of, don't blame other's.

[ShooterAZ]

I have an older Model 700 30-06, bought it used. I have never had any such problems with it, and don't expect to. I like the safety, it's one of the quietest out there and mine works just fine. Mine won't be going back to Remington.

[Multigunner]

If I buy a new set of tires and one of those brand new tires blows out due to a manufacturing defect causing me to wreck who's fault is it?

Off hand I can remember four cases of slamfires of other brands of weapons and action types where the person holding it had every reason to believe it was pointed in a safe direction, yet people were hit and at least three died.
One passed through a wall and floor of the room next door hitting someone on a lower floor, another passed through ceiling and floor above killing a man sleeping on a couch, another glanced off a stone floor hitting a person in the leg, another kicked the rifle back in an arc as it continued to fire, killing the person holding it.

[cwheel]

I've got 3 model 700 Remington's. Each time I got one, I replaced the trigger assembly with a aftermarket Timney. Doing this, I accepted personal responsibility for the outcome, which was very good. Not going to return any of these to Remington for the recall to have a inferior trigger installed and returned. Don't like to see any attacks on the firearms industry but this one they had to see coming and still did nothing about it. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
Chris

[KCSO]

In over 30 years of working on and adjusting the M700 triggers I have yet to see one malfunction that had not either been neglected or mis adjusted. They will load up with grime and dried oil and bump off but I assume that cleaning and care are no longer required for responsible ownership.

[John 242]

Pulled from the old Gunsmiths.com website, which appears to no longer be in operation. I've posted on pieces of the article, as the entire thing is too big to post. I would link to it, but the article no longer exists.


"REMINGTON-WALKER TRIGGER EXPLANATION
©copyright 2010, H.J. Belk

The Remington-Walker trigger is an “Over-ride” trigger system. That means it's not a “Direct-acting” trigger that pulls the sear out of position with the cocking piece (like M-98, 03, etc). An over-ride trigger props up the sear and is not attached to it. Winchester started the over-ride, or 'negative angle' trigger in hunting rifles in the M-70 in 1937.

In the Remington-Walker trigger, the safety 'problem' is NOT in the safety.

...the connector (you'll hear that word a lot) is not fastened inside the trigger housing, but 'flexibly mounted' in it. That means it's loose on the trigger but for the trigger return spring pushing against it.

Using .020 inch as the sear-trigger engagement figure and assuming the pivot pin is near the center of the trigger, it can be said the trigger pull is .020”, plus a clearance after disengagement to allow the sear to fall without touching anything. Call the total trigger movement .030 inch when the trigger pull plus overtravel is figured. By actual experiment you can see that the movement of a Remington-Walker trigger is exactly the same as any other trigger having the same sear engagement...

So, why the connector? If the connector really doesn't do anything, why have it? Is it cheaper than say a heat-treated trigger by any other maker? Possibly, but others have solid triggers.
Does it, in ANY way, make the trigger a 'better' trigger? No, it's just different. It does not reduce the trigger movement at all, but it's different simply because it's more complicated.

An over-ride trigger must, absolutely MUST, return to full position after every shot..

The Remington-Walker's 'trigger' is not the piece you put your finger on. The part that acts as the trigger under the sear is actually the connector which is 'flexibly connected' to the trigger body. The trigger return spring pushes the connector which then pushes the trigger body into position under the sear. The connector offers a complication that is not needed in the trigger. The addition of the connector only adds to the complexity of what is a very simple and amazingly reliable mechanism when its parts are limited to only what's necessary to do the job.

Remington-Walker triggers are subject to several failures all due to displacements of the connector inside the trigger housing.

Should the trigger be pulled [with the safety on] on a Remington-Walker, and the connector become displaced so that it does not return with the trigger, the shooter feels the trigger return not knowing the connector did not follow along with the trigger to its proper place under the sear. In that position, the safety lever is holding up the sear and the rifle fires when the safety is pushed to OFF."

[John 242]

Here's a link to the PDF of the article listed above:
http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf

[John 242]

A rebuttal of Mr. Belk by a blogger from Cheaper Than Dirt.
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/the-remington-700-rifle/

"One of the experts featured on the CNBC show, one H.J. Belk, claims the Walker system is unsafe even if it never malfunctions, and that the fact none of the experts have been able to duplicate the claims doesn’t mean that the trigger doesn’t have a design flaw.

The analogy he uses is that “The fact that the plane you’re flying in has not crashed is no evidence that crashes don’t occur.” Which, while true, is really not applicable to the allegations made about the Walker trigger.
Every trigger design, and in fact every mechanical device, can fail if not properly maintained. If you neglect the brakes on your car, they may work fine for a while, and eventually they will fail and you could be killed in a crash.
Does this mean that they are defective? Of course not, and to say such a thing would be preposterous. Some of the tests Mr. Belk discusses to determine if your rifle is unsafe rely on the trigger being damaged or parts being pushed out of alignment.
Could you get the trigger to malfunction in this manner? It’s quite possible for any device to operate in undesired ways if it is damaged or out of spec due to neglect or poor maintenance. Keeping the action clean and free of debris is probably the best way to ensure any trigger functions as designed.
Let’s go back to gun safety 101 here: Colonel Jeff Cooper’s second rule of firearm safety is “Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!”

It's interesting that this unknown blogger mentions LTC Jeff Cooper. If you go back through Cooper's commentaries, he complains about problems with numerous 700s firing without the trigger being pulled when operated by family members.

I doubt that the faulty rifles that Cooper had personal knowledge of were "out of spec due to neglect or poor maintenance."

[dragon813gt]

What direction is safe when it can fire at any point? I'm not saying that people didn't follow safety guidelines. But it's also apparent from Remington's internal memos that they were aware of potential problems and chose to do nothing about it.

[Multigunner]

The idea that a recall is some sort of convoluted scheme to put auto or gun manufacturers out of business just doesn't wash. Paying out billions in punitive damages due to injury or death caused by faulty products is what hurts industry. Destroying buyer confidence in your products by making defective products then trying to weasel out of responsibilty is what puts their stocks in the gutter.

Remington is doing the right thing by recalling as many rifles as they can for repairs, just as so many gun manufacturers have done in the past with little or no publicity.
Those who don't want to send their model 700 in for trigger replacement don't have to, just be sure if you sell the rifle or leave it to later generations that the next owner will know exactly what they have.

PS
As for detail cleaning and maintenance of these triggers, the vast majority of rifle owners will never take their action out of the wood and have no idea what their trigger mechanism looks like or how to go about cleaning it other than spraying it through any openings with WD-40. If the rifle is ever taken down it will be by a gunsmith they took it too after it malfunctioned not before.

[shooter93]

You will get a very safe trigger....25 lbs. and it will take two hands and a manual to operate it. Or maybe a "smart" trigger so only you can fire it after entering a 30 digit code and grasping it properly three times in a row. And with all that someone will manage to shoot someone they didn't want to with it. ALL mechanical devices fail sooner or later. It is too bad that people ere injured or killed but in every case the firearm was pointed in the wrong direction. The operator may have THOUGHT is was pointed in a safe direction but it wasn't.

[jcwit]

About 10 years ago I purchased a Remington 700 VLS, it was fairly new at the time, maybe 100 rounds thru it.

I had it bedded, put a Score High Benchrest Follower on the action and a Rifle Basic trigger set at 2 oz. or less. It has no safety.

[dubber123]

Posted by Multigunner:

As for detail cleaning and maintenance of these triggers, the vast majority of rifle owners will never take their action out of the wood and have no idea what their trigger mechanism looks like or how to go about cleaning it other than spraying it through any openings with WD-40. If the rifle is ever taken down it will be by a gunsmith they took it too after it malfunctioned not before.[/QUOTE]
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **********************************************

This is one of the most accurate statements I have ever read.

[kootne]

I referred in a previous post on this thread to a incident from my youth of having one go off when the safety was released. The rifle in that case was at the most 2 years old. I do not think what most people think of as normal maintenance on a 2 year old rifle includes stripping it out of the wood or that lube would get crusty around the trigger parts in that short of time. I do however think it is very possible that moisture could freeze and have a similar effect. Possibly that is something that has not occurred to the "experts" who are probably checking these rifles out in a temperature controlled lab. I know for a fact frost will disable a 700 ejector to the point a round can not be chambered and have been around several where the trigger "just don't feel right" in bad weather. I saw more of this with 700's than all other guns combined during a number of years of guiding elk hunters. From my point of view, they are not reliable in wet/cold weather.
kootne

[cbrick]

They have been trying to sell the company since Sandy Hook and found no buyers, they sure as h*ll aren't going to find a buyer now. Could well be the end of Remington, all the nay sayers that don't like the 700 should be happy then.

The woman that shot her kid pointed the rifle at a trailer, her son was on the opposite side of the trailer and of course the shot went through the trailer. Tragic but the kid was a victim of his mothers stupidity. Who points a loaded rifle at a trailer for any reason?

My 700 action has a Dewey trigger on it set at 5 ounces and no safety. Many thousands of rounds and no accidental discharges.

Rick

[M-Tecs]

I have a 721 from 1951, two mid 70's 700's, six from the mid 80's, three XP100R's and four 700ML's. I have also modified some military actions and built some actions from scratch using the Remington-Walker triggers. They all use the trigger in question. Never had an issue with any and none of them are going back.

The only safety induced firing of a rifle I have ever experienced happened last year. I was hunting with a Savage 10 ML muzzleloader in freezing rain. I pushed the safety to fire and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened so tried the safety and firing a second time with the same results. When I went to put the safety back on it fired. It was pointed in a safe direction (ground) but this is a smokeless muzzleloader using 68 grains of IMR 4198 with a 300 grain bullet. Split my thumb nail and took the skin of the knuckle.

On shotguns I have had a 1/2 dozen or more. The Browning Superposed and the SKB clones (had both) would fire when closed after they got dirty. Shooting trap this was every 3,000 to 4,000 rounds. Started cleaning them at 2,000 and never had a problem after that.

Anyone that doesn't want their Remington-Walker triggers can sent them to me and I will put them to good use.

[starmac]

Remingtons experts have always known there could be a failures, In one of the lawsuits, an internal memo from 1946 warned about it came to light. Walker himself told them, and had a fix for it before they ever went into production. The fix at that time supposedly would raise the cost of the rifle 5 1/2 cants, but they chose to cheap out.nd would be

[DLCTEX]

I have a Remington 722 that I bought from the original owner that had been sitting unused for many years. I had an accidental discharge once upon releasing the safety that I attributed to possibly having my finger on the trigger. I tested the safety repeatedly while unloaded and had an ocasional failure. A detailed cleaning removed a lot of gunk and the problem has not reocourred. I will not send it in to have a heavy trigger installed.

[oldsagerat]

I only have one left, a 722. I will put at least a Timney in it.
Funny, the first thing I was taught about guns was to NEVER point
it at anything you didn't want to kill. Its good to see the recall.