Mythbusting? Can a bore be too smooth?

[Canuck Bob]

This forum more than others has done a bunch regarding busting or confirming cherished myths. Reading on the paper patch group and considering fire lapping this mythbusting oppurtunity pops up a lot.

Is it true that a bore can be too smooth and polished? I'm not talking a bore ruined by polishing. Rather a truly polished healthy bore?

Confirmed
or
Busted

I have no clue myself. My bores are clean but not polished by any definition. I wonder if it is because a squeaky clean barrel often needs a little seasoning that caused folks to think a polished bore reduced accuracy.

Folks often talk about how easy their barrels are to clean, or not require cleaning, after lapping with any one of a number of techniques. Handlapping followed by air gauging seems a big part of some respected barrel makers for the benchrest guys.

[btroj]

Good barrels ARE lapped but only to a certain level of finish.

[HATCH]

I can tell you that the Remington model 700 that my dad has in 300 black out shoots more accurate when dirty.
When dirty it shoots sub-moa to the point of being almost one hole at hundred yards.

[runfiverun]

too smooth is bad, you need about a 600 grit type finish.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've read where people mentioned that a muzzleloading rifle barrel would "shoot slick" and have to be roughed up somehow. I never could find a thorough description of what shooting problems this condition caused and how to go about fixing it.

[waksupi]

I've read where people mentioned that a muzzleloading rifle barrel would "shoot slick" and have to be roughed up somehow. I never could find a thorough description of what shooting problems this condition caused and how to go about fixing it.

It causes inaccuracy. The old time cure, was to piss in the bore, and let it rust for a day or two.

[jonp]

It causes inaccuracy. The old time cure, was to piss in the bore, and let it rust for a day or two.

Thats one I've never heard. Was it the Uric Acid that etched the bore?

[shooter93]

I communicated with Felix one time and he thought anything below 600 grit was detrimental and I think so too. I did experiment for an article on the "Micro polishing" scheme that was touted a few years ago. Used 3 new barrels and polished to various finishes including having them micro polished. They sure were smooth....but didn't shoot well at all.

[.22-10-45]

Interesting! If you drink Micro-Brew & pee in bore...do you get micro polish?

[waksupi]

Thats one I've never heard. Was it the Uric Acid that etched the bore?

Well, the urine itself will cause rust.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

+1 on uric acid causing the rust with oxygen present...just don't over do it :takinWiz::groner::bigsmyl2:

[44man]

All true.
I suppose the worst guns I never got to shoot were chrome lined. never buy a chrome plated ML!

[fatnhappy]

You can pick Ric out of a crowd, he has yellow sneakers and a rusty zipper.

As to the OP, I can't say that the question ever occured to me before. Thanks.

[mozeppa]

how did somebody arrive at pissing in the bore?:shock:

what caliber do they size their weiner to? :shock::shock:

sadly... i can only do cannons.:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

how did somebody arrive at pissing in the bore?:shock:

what caliber do they size their weiner to? :shock::shock:

sadly... i can only do cannons.:bigsmyl2:
Nobody will make me laugh more! Thanks for that. :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[dondiego]

It causes inaccuracy. The old time cure, was to piss in the bore, and let it rust for a day or two.

You could just use some Pyrodex and clean the next day.

[s mac]

As far as wizzing in the barrel I hadn't heard that but I have heard od wizzing on the outside of a muzzle loader to brown them.

[Love Life]

I would like to volunteer my services to take a whizz in rifle barrels. You pay shipping both ways. I promise to only 'load up' with the finest of the finest beers...Coors Light. I'll even make sure the mountains on the can are blue.

No need to thank me.

[William Yanda]

I nominate this thread for "Most Diverted:

[s mac]

I would like to volunteer my services to take a whizz in rifle barrels. You pay shipping both ways. I promise to only 'load up' with the finest of the finest beers...Coors Light. I'll even make sure the mountains on the can are blue.

No need to thank me.



Any flyer's after a 6 pack?

[s mac]

I nominate this thread for "Most Diverted:
Diverted or perverted?

[longbow]

Any flyer's after a 6 pack?

From the rifle or the whizzer?

[mdi]

too smooth is bad, you need about a 600 grit type finish.
OK, but why?

[44man]

I would like to volunteer my services to take a whizz in rifle barrels. You pay shipping both ways. I promise to only 'load up' with the finest of the finest beers...Coors Light. I'll even make sure the mountains on the can are blue.

No need to thank me.
Nobody out west likes Coors, they drink Olympia. Ever try Bud light? My first mouthful went on the ground. My God, people pay for that stuff?
Pee in a barrel after that stuff and it will sit a month. :bigsmyl2:

[jmort]

Out west a whole lot of people drink Coors light. Mexicans are dedicated Budweiser drinkers. Oly not happening.

[Eutectic]

ok, but why?

c.o.r.e.

[Hamish]

how did somebody arrive at pissing in the bore?:shock:

what caliber do they size their weiner to? :shock::shock:

sadly... i can only do cannons.:bigsmyl2:

Urine has been an important resource throughout history. Just a little side example is the phrase "doesn't have a pot to piss in". Urine was used in many cottage industries, and selling it to them was a way for many to generate income. No piss pot, no income,,,,,

Another example, in the Khyber Pass area, village munitions manufacture still to this day use urine for bluing among other things.

[waksupi]

OK, but why?

I think it is like making a lube too slick. The projectile doesn't grip the bore well enough to build a consistent pressure. It is going out the bore without benefit of the full potential of the powder.

[btroj]

My wife one asked me how pretty she is. I looked at her and said "Well, on a scale of one to ten urinate."

[s mac]

My wife one asked me how pretty she is. I looked at her and said "Well, on a scale of one to ten urinate."

Better not put that in writing.LOL

[btroj]

I did write it, in snow.......

[MT Chambers]

I think it is like making a lube too slick. The projectile doesn't grip the bore well enough to build a consistent pressure. It is going out the bore without benefit of the full potential of the powder. I wonder about this more then a bore being too smooth, what about a cast boolit with dry moly and a fast twist barrel?

[btroj]

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm

Here is someone who would know and his comments on too smooth.

[waksupi]

I wonder about this more then a bore being too smooth, what about a cast boolit with dry moly and a fast twist barrel?

My experience with moly would support the theory.

[MaryB]

2mm cannons? :bigsmyl2:


how did somebody arrive at pissing in the bore?:shock:

what caliber do they size their weiner to? :shock::shock:

sadly... i can only do cannons.:bigsmyl2:

[MaryB]

Just pour the bud in the barrel and save yourself from tasting it...


Nobody out west likes Coors, they drink Olympia. Ever try Bud light? My first mouthful went on the ground. My God, people pay for that stuff?
Pee in a barrel after that stuff and it will sit a month. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm

Here is someone who would know and his comments on too smooth.
That was one of the best things I ever read.
I knew Bill Large in Ohio long ago, one of the best ML barrel makers around at the time. I learned a lot from him. He is the one that told me a ML can be "shot smooth."

[44man]

Just pour the bud in the barrel and save yourself from tasting it...
Plain carbonated water with some fermented rice for alcohol.
I worked for the airline and knew a few hundred guys from Denver, none liked Coors.
They got rich by making a can of beer cheaper then a primer.

[Gtek]

Several things I remember my now gone mentor/Obi-Wan saying was nothing past a 600 finish. "Want a good barrel, buy a good barrel and hope for the best" was one, and "hand lapping was for artist, I'm a machinist". On several occasions I did witness him PP a few and roll in 600 and pop off with cat sneezes in shop until he was happy. This is where I learned about Marlin cutting dovetails too quick, and gauge pins don't lie.

[nanuk]

I'm sure we can speculate all we like and come up with very reasonable sounding ideas on why "Too Smooth" is not the best, but due to the nature of internal ballistics, we'll probably never know.


what I wonder about is the difference between barrels shooting jacketed, vs PP, vs lubed cast.

for jacketed, it is easy to understand why you don't want mirror smooth...
but for PP or Cast? I dunno.
and patched RB? after the first shot, you have to wonder why it would matter.

[compass will]

Urine has been an important resource throughout history. Just a little side example is the phrase "doesn't have a pot to piss in". Urine was used in many cottage industries, and selling it to them was a way for many to generate income. No piss pot, no income,,,,,


Another example, in the Khyber Pass area, village munitions manufacture still to this day use urine for bluing among other things.

Now we are putting it in Diesel engines to stop NOX.
DEF contains Urea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea)

[mdi]

c.o.r.e. Gee, thanks for the informative, educational, and complete answer...:confused:

[44man]

dunno, but if you get a chrome plated bore in a ML to shoot groups, let me know what fairy to call on.

[paul h]

Never given the subject any thought before but I can only speculate that with a too smooth bore it's like jo-blocks where they are so smooth they stick together and perhaps the too smooth bore with the bullet trying to stick to it is adverse to accuracy?

[fouronesix]

I don't know about too smooth. But I'm pretty sure I don't want one that's too rough.

But, as to the overall myth busting idea…. people will do or think the strangest things and will do so for generations even after repeatedly "beat over the head" with or shown or even experiencing, first hand, simple facts.

[runfiverun]

Gee, thanks for the informative, educational, and complete answer...:confused:

consistency of residual enhancement
it affects the next shot, whether it's powder, boolit lube, or copper, it's a residual.
the residual being constant determines whether it's a negative or positive affect.

[44man]

I had a lot of trouble with a TC Tender in 30-30 long ago. Bore was so rough it gathered copper or lead like crazy. But no gun was so accurate. With a scope from bags I could hit pennies at 100 yards. It was just hard to clean so I sent the barrel back for a replacement. Second was NOT smoother yet still shot pennies at 100.
My 6.5 Swede is pitted from the old primers but a .410 shell at 100 is DEAD every shot and it has done .432" with 5 shots at 100.
As I shoot my stainless revolvers more and more I do see a slight drop off in groups from boolit polish. Not much to do with stainless except shoot some LBT lap through them.
To go ultra fine is a mistake. 600 grit might be too fine too.

[Eutectic]

Gee, thanks for the informative, educational, and complete answer...:confused:

Consistency Of Residuals Encountered

mdi......

This is a BIG one! If C.O.R.E. is uniform then things like 'cold starts', 'purge fliers', 'hot cold discrepancies', and many more are if not eliminated, kept under better control.

A very smooth or 'slick' bore also 'aggravates' C.O.R.E.;making it harder to control!

During testing in the "Extreme" thread I found a rather 'rough' older barrel (but sharp lands and grooves) actually displayed much better control of those items mentioned above! Especially 'cold start first shots'! As a hunter, this is of paramount importance to me!

Eutectic

[truckjohn]

It's interesting that in Lilja's article - the caveat is that all of it refers to hand lapped custom made barrels.... Can THEY be too smooth and perhaps cause other problems? Probably....

Are we likely to ever encounter this in Factory rifles? Probably not...
But... I did notice a degradation of accuracy in rifles I did too much JB Bore polish work on... Did I get them too smooth? Maybe... What was my solution - switch away from abrasive polishes to the foaming bore cleaners and the problem went away....

I wouldn't doubt that 1 or 2 "Fire lapping" shots with 300 grit paste would do the trick....

Thanks

[44man]

Depends on grit and JB is very fine stuff. i can see too much use making things worse.
Expert hand lapping is to remove sideways marks and tight spots, that takes grit to cut.

[mdi]

consistency of residual enhancement
it affects the next shot, whether it's powder, boolit lube, or copper, it's a residual.
the residual being constant determines whether it's a negative or positive affect.
Thanks Run, well answered...

[Forgetful]

Just pour the bud in the barrel and save yourself from tasting it...

lol yes, it already is pish

[44man]

lol yes, it already is pish
Agree, been making my own beer for years and years and it is very expensive to make top end stuff.
The best uses barley, never rice or wheat flour, never sugar. Bud uses tons of rice for all beers. Malted wheat makes a good brew but it still takes a lot of barley. Rice has no flavor, just starch to convert to sugars for alcohol. Much cheaper then barley.
Bud might be the cheapest beer to make of any out there.
I have a conflict because Bud has the best adds and those horses are something else. They are also pro gun and sportsmen. Hard choice to swallow the stuff though.

[geargnasher]

Gee, thanks for the informative, educational, and complete answer...:confused:

Actually, it was.

Gear

[MaryB]

I used to all grain brew, you are not kidding about the price of grains! Slowly collecting stuff to do it again. Have 2 5 gallon glass carboys I picked up for $20, need a big brew kettle, figure I will bottle this time around instead of keg. Beer has a better life span but it is more work. With just myself drinking it a couple case run a month or so will be plenty. Thought about smaller keg systems but none have good reviews.


Agree, been making my own beer for years and years and it is very expensive to make top end stuff.
The best uses barley, never rice or wheat flour, never sugar. Bud uses tons of rice for all beers. Malted wheat makes a good brew but it still takes a lot of barley. Rice has no flavor, just starch to convert to sugars for alcohol. Much cheaper then barley.
Bud might be the cheapest beer to make of any out there.
I have a conflict because Bud has the best adds and those horses are something else. They are also pro gun and sportsmen. Hard choice to swallow the stuff though.

[Forrest r]

what I wonder about is the difference between barrels shooting jacketed, vs PP, vs lubed cast.

Absolutely, different animals so to speak & they will not only thrive but excel in a environment they like.

As many are finding out, what works for jacketed bullets doesn't carry over very well into the cast bullet world. The modern 308 & 223's are good examples. Short case necks and steep leade angles that cause allot of bullet deformation/skidding with an increase in pressure.

bp & roughing the bbls (urin):
bp bbl's/shooting has it's own set of rules. The highly fouled bbl's get polished/smoothed with use from the un-burnt powder/powder residue. The heavily greased patches, not bullets, cloth, have a hard time gripping the bbl's. Pitting the bbl's brings them back & the pound formed heavily greased cloth rapped boolits grab (no skidding) the bbl's again and accuracy returns.

pp & shot out bbl's:
Very similar to bp/cloth rapped bullets. Most people use/shoot pp bullets in worn/shot out bbl's. The looong throats don't affect the wrapped boolits. pp'ing also allows the user to get higher velocity from their cast boolits, hence no skidding/boolit deformation.

One area where lead bullets, lubes & smooth bbl's have become an art is with the rimfires. When shooters start doing head shots on flies @ 50yds they learn real quick what works. It's been proven time & time again, a shooter can shot a box of sk/wolf ammo (slippery lube/snot) and take a cheap blammo ammo and shoot excellent groups with it until the lube wears out of the bbl (10 to 20 shots). The guys with the $$$$ rigs shooting the $2,000 a case ammo keep those bbl's clean and pay special attention to the leade area of the chamber.

To me it all comes down to the cast boolit not skidding or deforming. Lead bullets can and do work in super slick bbl's but the bbl's have to be setup for the bullet being used.
Setup ='s:
The right chamber, leade & bbl choke.

Several years ago I was testing bbl chambers, leades, bbl chokes, bore diameters, bore smoothness's & rifling depths in 22lr's. I used a 10-22 as a platform (1000's of bbl's out there & easy to chance). I tested different ammo's and found an excellent lot of sk pistol match so I bought a case of it to use for all the bbl work/testing. At the end of the work/testing I found 3 things that were real game changers.
The chamber:
I set the bbl back and re-cut the chamber with a full blown match reamer that had an extremely tight leade for maximum bullet/bore alignment.
The bbl:
It was rough inside so it got lapped, the leade of the chamber got a high polish (1600 grit) and the whole bbl got a moly treatment.
The choke:
When I lapped the bbl I left the last 1" alone, this did 2 things. Made it smaller than the rest of the bbl and allowed it to foul faster than the rest of the bbl.

Those groups don't look like much but that bbl (cheap used $35 bc bbl) could barely do 3/4" groups @ 50yds with the same ammo when I 1st bought it. Now it will easily run in the .3's"

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38102283008.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/38102283008.jpg.html)

The 10-22 with the reworked bbl that I have $350 total (doner 10-22/stock/scope/parts), the 8-32x50 scope isn't made for target work (thick crosshairs) & neither is the stock. It was made for silhouettes.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/100_1089_zps417413a5.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/100_1089_zps417413a5.jpg.html)

Why bring up that 22lr bbl? Because it shoots lead, is highly polished and then treated with moly giving it an extremely slick bore.

I planned on testing the things I've learned with 22lr bbl's and using those same things on a centerfire, specifically as 308w. I've started doing some testing already & planned on slowly working a bbl this winter to see how the different changes affect the centerfire boolits. I have been smoothing/lapping the bbl and starting to put a choke in it.

Ben has done excellent work with lubes and has had extremely impressive groups with bullets slathered lube. THANK YOU BEN!!!!! I made his lube and tested different bullets with it and his process of tumble lubing on top of the Ben's red lube. From there I used the same boolits/powder charge combo's and powder coated bullets. I wanted to see which boolit was slicker, Ben's red vs pc. The pc'd boolits (4 different boolits tested) had the same accuray & consistently produced 60fps to 75fps more velocity, depending on the boolit design. A 10-shot group with a slick bbl & slick boolit.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/50ampflier_zpsaadf309a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/50ampflier_zpsaadf309a.jpg.html)

10-shot group with Ben's red & 45/45/10

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bens311291_zpsfc0dcb8f.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bens311291_zpsfc0dcb8f.jpg.html)

Another 10-shot group with the same boolit/load but with pc'd boolits.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/pc311291_zpsea11d496.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/pc311291_zpsea11d496.jpg.html)

Over the winter I planned on smoothing the bbl out some more, re-cutting the leade angle and moly treating the whole bbl. From there I planned on using what I learned and doing those same thing to a match grade bbl that already has a match chamber, different twist & different rifling.


Why the difference in bbl's? Because I believe that bullet skidding & deformation along with the boolits metal (rpm's) all contribute to the cast boolit's performance. The differences in the bbl's should be enough to be able to clearly see what works and what doesn't. Both bbl's will have the same smoothness/polish/moly treatment and the same leade. from there it's:
1 in 10 twist, standard chamber, 22", 6-groove, 300/308 vs 1 in 11 twist, match chamber, 24", 4-groove, 302/308

I believe that a bbl's anatomy has more to do with how a lead bullet performs in modern centerfire firearm's than how slick it is. This test will no doubt open some doors and close others.