Ruger 44mag revolver leading

[oley55]

first time using lead bullets in this 44mag. I bought some SNS Hi-Tek coated bullets and loaded some work-up loads with Unique, Blue Dot, and Titegroup. But got into some significant leading before I had worked through all my test loads. Hadn't really anticipated the leading problem since I was using coated bullets and all loads should have been well below 1,400 fps. SNS says 1,500 fps max for their coated bullets in a handgun. Consequently, I did not watch for and do not know when or where the leading started. When I realized I had leading, it was throughout the barrel and required about 3+ hours to get the barrel lead free again.

Note to self: always watch for and check for leading when working up new lead bullet loads!

I have pretty much read myself into total confusion about throat size, barrel/bore, and appropriate bullet diameter.

This is an early 80's Ruger Redhawk, 7.5", 44 mag. At some point probably 1983, I had to send the pistol back to Ruger for a barrel replacement due to cracks appearing about halfway down the barrel. But that's another story. The barrel to cylinder gap is .003". A thousands tighter than specks but has never been a functional problem for me.

Using minus pin gauges I did find some burrs on the mouth of one cylinder throat which I have since corrected.

with minus pin gauge all cylinder throats measure .432".
slugged barrel is measuring .4298".
bullets used are SNS Hi-Tek coated 240gr RNFP measuring .4330".

Based on my confused reading it seems my bullets should be sized down to something below the cylinder throat size. ??

side note: when I pin gauged the barrel I found a slight restriction beginning about 1.5" into the barrel where all the stamped warning and barrel information is located. When I slugged the barrel I found considerable resistance where the barrel is screwed into the frame (forcing cone?). I didn't have enough slugs on hand to check barrel and forcing cone separately. I have a NECO fire lapping kit on the way and a bunch of soft lead slugs. I plan to fire lap to eliminate or reduce the constrictions before I order the required/recommended sizing die.

Knowledgeable thoughts and suggestions about fire lapping and bullet sizing will be appreciated..............

[DougGuy]

Sizing should be where you can push the boolits into the front of the cylinder throats with a light drag and finger pressure. You should not have to force them, and neither should they fall through there freely. With a decent magnum load, those boolits will bump to fill the throats anyway unless they are super hard.

If you can chamber loaded rounds, and the driving band or ojive of the boolits go into the throats without forcing them, they are good to go on the sizing.

Stainless or Blued gun? The reason I ask is because the stainless Ruger uses for these is some TOUGH stuff, it's 400 series stainless and firelapping will take a LOT longer on stainless than it will with blued steel. Also, you may need to slug and measure the thread choke because if it is light to moderate, firelapping may take care of it but if it's .003" or more, that is too much material to take off by firelapping without hurting the remaining rifling in the bore. If it is this severe, it needs to go back to Ruger.

There is a way to cut a wooden dowel that will fit down the bore, cut it about 1" shorter than the distance from the recoil shield to the muzzle, this will allow you to start a lead ball in the muzzle until it almost touches the dowel, and you can then force it back out by pushing on the dowel, this will slug the part of the barrel that isn't deformed from the rollmarked warning or the thread choke, pushing a second slug all the way through will let you measure the severity of the thread choke by comparing the two slugs.

Also, use this first slug that you measured the last inch of the bore with, and see how it fits into the cylinder throats. If it won't fit in the front of the throats, the throats may need to be reamed. By your description it sounds like they are of sufficient diameter to pass this slug into them from the front.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/1e067e33-3760-4368-961e-e7305cac71d2_zps75482635.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/1e067e33-3760-4368-961e-e7305cac71d2_zps75482635.jpg.html)

[44man]

Screwy boolits. Coated junk. Never had leading from a Ruger until coated pure lead junk.
How do you measure groove with pin gauges? Feel good waste of money, toss them.
the .44 needs hard boolits with a good lube like felix. Best will be 20 to 22 BHN and for a Keith, 28 to 30 BHN. Fit to groove, usually .430" but to .002" over is good.
How do you measure roll marks on the barrel. You out of your mind? They do not compress the barrel.
Fast powders increase leading from slump and skid with instant pressure. 296 is the powder.

[oley55]

gheeze, while you were responding I was rechecking my cylinder measurements. my .433 bullets pass through without effort.

I measured my chinee made minus pin gages. The .432" measures .4319" and the .433" measures .4327". the .433" bullets goes through while the .433/.4327" pin gauge won't. Not sure what that means other than a 2" long pin won't pass when a short lead bullet will.

I'm on the same page on how to measure the thread choke versus barrel. the new lead barrel sinkers I bought do not seem to be pure lead and were very difficult to get started so I'm waiting for the soft lead slugs to arrive.

yes it is a stainless steel barrel. guess I need wait to see just how much choke is there before I consider fire lapping. or just stay with jacketed bullets. :(

[DougGuy]

How do you measure roll marks on the barrel. You out of your mind? They do not compress the barrel.


Oh but they -do- distort the barrel. I can look down my SBH and SEE oblong areas in the grooves that correspond to the more strongly imprinted words rolled onto the barrel. It raises a ridge in the bore, behind each of the words. Can see this clear as day. Had several Rugers that it was bad enough to photograph, and yes it will stop a brass pilot dead in it's tracks when you try to use a forcing cone cutter on one that has deep rollmarks in the side of the barrel.

I go buy egg sinkers at wallyworld and use those. If they aren't big enough I sit them on my vise and smack with a hammer. That makes them big enough now!

[oley55]

Screwy boolits. Coated junk. Never had leading from a Ruger until coated pure lead junk.
How do you measure groove with pin gauges? Feel good waste of money, toss them.
the .44 needs hard boolits with a good lube like felix. Best will be 20 to 22 BHN and for a Keith, 28 to 30 BHN. Fit to groove, usually .430" but to .002" over is good.
How do you measure roll marks on the barrel. You out of your mind? They do not compress the barrel.
Fast powders increase leading from slump and skid with instant pressure. 296 is the powder.

I measured the grooves by this: "slugged barrel is measuring .4298". Slipping a pin gauge in there is a real fast way to identify a constriction. I doubt I would have found the burr in the one cylinder without the pin gauge.

Don't know what "measuring roll marks" means. What is a roll mark?

[DougGuy]

Roll mark, in this case, is the written warning pressed into the side of the barrel that tells you to go read the manual, etc. Some barrels have this warning imprinted rather deeply, so as to make it difficult to remove the warning and reblue or repolish the barrel, thus de-uglifying the side of the barrel. Ruger made SURE it was deep enough to prevent taking it off. Unfortunately, the .44 and .45 caliber barrels -are- thin enough so that this pressing of the letters into the surface of the barrel results in a series of raised ridges on the inside of the barrel, right behind the deeply impressed words roll marked on the outside.

Your pin gage starts in the barrel, riding on the tops of the lands, but when it gets to the part behind the roll mark, it stops. These ridges that are distorting the barrel enough to stop the travel of the pin gage are the cause of it stopping. They are also responsible for egg shaping a boolit while it travels through the distorted portion, and if the boolit is a hardened alloy, it will be distorted enough to allow powder gases to escape along the sides that were distorted by the roll marks (the same ones that stopped the pin gage).

If you drive a lead ball far enough into the bore that it goes into the area behind the roll marks, then push it forward towards the muzzle and shine a bore light into the bore at the forcing cone, you will see a faint glimmer of light along the side of the slug which is the result of the slug becoming distorted from the roll marks. If you can do this and don't see any light at all, the marks aren't severe enough to worry with. If you can see light past the sides of the lead ball, the same thing is happening with live fire and if your boolit alloy is hard, it will NOT bump or swage enough to seal the bore after the boolit passes the distorted area.

A softer alloy will swage down to go through tight cylinder throats, and a thread constriction, and if soft enough will bump back up afterwards and seal the bore. This is one reason why factory jacketed ammo will shoot good through a barrel with these issues, the core inside the jacket is usually dead soft lead and it will not provide enough resistance to prevent bumping or swaging to fit the bore. The .44 magnum operates at a high enough pressure to cause softer alloys or jacketed boolits to change shape/size as it passes through a changing barrel when it is fired.

Hard cast alloys once swaged down will not bump back up and once they pass through a thread choke, powder gas begins escaping along the sides of the boolit, melting lead and causing severe leading. This is part of your problem. Using fast burning powders will only compound this. I have my best accuracy and near zero leading out of an alloy soft enough to scratch it with my thumbnail, and Felix lube. I don't even clean my barrel anymore. Yes these are gas checked boolits. They use a copper gas check and this arrangement works very well.

[oley55]

thanks DougGuy that makes sense.

Reference: If you drive a lead ball far enough into the bore that it goes into the area behind the roll marks, then push it forward towards the muzzle and shine a bore light into the bore at the forcing cone, you will see a faint glimmer of light along the side of the slug which is the result of the slug becoming distorted from the roll marks. If you can do this and don't see any light at all, the marks aren't severe enough to worry with. If you can see light past the sides of the lead ball, the same thing is happening with live fire and if your boolit alloy is hard, it will NOT bump or swage enough to seal the bore after the boolit passes the distorted area.


I just ran some slugs through for thread choke and barrel. couldn't figure out why measuring the three lands from the barrel were all different .4295, .4297, .4298. I pretty much kept remeasuring until I wore them out. for grins I'll slug again and look for any light seepage.

[44man]

I never had roll mark marks in my barrels. I made many guide bushings with a perfect fit for the cutters and they slide through. .44, .45, 475, 45-70 and .500. Only gun with any thread choke was my .44 and I lapped it.
Best thing to slug with are pure round balls. I upset one in the bore and push back out and another is upset and pushed through.
All BFR's have been perfection. A Freedom .357 had perfect .357 throats, groove .358"X .3599" out of round so nothing fit. Almost .002" out of round. Third barrel was .357".
I do not believe in "bump up" in the bore. Anything that will after pressures drop will slump. Shooting boolits larger then throats is a waste of time too. My best accuracy with any revolver has always been with hard boolits. My last alloy is 16# of WW's and 4# of stereo metal. Water dropped. Accuracy went way up.
Even air cooled WW boolits gives me fliers. I have been able to shoot 50-50 boolits by oven hardening to 20 BHN but still get fliers.
Groove size to .002" over is best. Any more and you need deep lube grooves. Also makes fins at the base to play heck at muzzle exit.
Take a hint from a Minie' ball with a thin skirt or a soft HB that will flare at exit and be a shuttle cock. By lapping Minie' ball molds for a perfect fit it was easy to increase accuracy 1000%. 200 meter targets could be hit every shot when the wrong fit could not hit a 4'X4' target at 50.
If you have roll marks, just power lap. BFR's have badger barrels and are hand lapped. They shoot cast out of box. You can also shoot a 1000 jacketed too. But a boolit that expands after roll marks is no longer the one you cast. It was ruined in the forcing cone. Maybe before it leaves the cylinder. The skid will cause more leading then you want.

[walnut1704]

Ah, the infamous "Ruger constriction". You will probably only solve that by fire lapping.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

What were you using that took 3 hours to clean the barrel? Worst lead I ever had was in my 357 when working up 38/44 loads, to the point where you could not see the rifling. Around 5 minutes with a bronze brush wrapped with copper chore boy until I had a tight fit and it was clean.

[oley55]

I slugged everything again.

full length through the thread choke: .4300" all three sides.
slugged halfway down barrel to the middle of the Ruger babble and then pushed back out muzzle: .4300", .4301", .4295". So there is some roll mark constriction, which my wastefully ridiculous pin gauges already told me.

Not sure why my measurements this time around do not capture the narrowed thread choke cause it sure does take more umph on the hammer when the slug gets to them.

all is moot for now since I got stupid and lazy and thought I could support the cylinder on a sand bag while driving the slugs down the barrel. well the cylinder will no longer spin freely so I need to figure out how to remove the cylinder from the crane and see what I screwed up! Redhawk being different than Super Redhawk and others, when you remove the crane the cylinder does not slide off.