flintlock ignition

[rfd]

if the lock is well tuned, a flintlock's ignition can be darned fast, if not faster than a cap gun.

tip curtis .45, goex 3f down the tube and in the pan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp8mFXphEQ4

[junkpile]

Dern skippy. I've long held that flint is faster, given the distance from the pan to the flash hole. I've seen a lot of guns with misaligned flash holes, or owners that cover the flash hole in powder, or stuff is just not maintained well.

Good video.

[DIRT Farmer]

If you have seen Larry Pricherts work using high speed vidio, it is amazing.I learned that most of what I knew about flintlocks aint so. and I have shot them for close to fifty years.

[wch]

This speed and reliability was proven to me years ago when I had the good fortune to meet a black powder rifle builder who allowed me to shoot one of his creations.

[Lead Fred]

In the years Ive owned my Chamber's Late Ketland lock, no other lock has ever beat it to fire.

Cap or flinter, but then it is the faster lock you can buy. Mine was modified by Mr Rice, it is a joy to shoot.

My fav part of rondies is when some capper gets a ball stuck, and we both use my rifle to finish the walk.
Several of them trade those cappers in for flinters.

[curator]

[QUOTE=rfd;3029097]if the lock is well tuned, a flintlock's ignition can be darned fast, if not faster than a cap gun."

Why perpetuate a myth? There is plenty of scientific proof that a well tuned flintlock's ignition is not as fast as a correctly loaded percussion gun. Can they be fast? Sure! Can a cap-lock be slow to fire, Yes, again. The amount of misinformation that circulates on the web about muzzle loading guns is astronomical. Which is stronger, beliefs or facts? Your perception or scientific data? My Pedersoli Mortimer's ignition correctly loaded seems instantaneous whereas the "pop-Boom" I get loading Pyro-Cr@P in my Navy Arms 12 gauge cap lock is disconcertingly slow. What do we learn comparing apples to oranges?

[NSB]

My own experience with flintlocks is that most people put way too much powder in the pan. That alone will really slow it down.

[rfd]

[QUOTE=rfd;3029097]if the lock is well tuned, a flintlock's ignition can be darned fast, if not faster than a cap gun."

Why perpetuate a myth? There is plenty of scientific proof that a well tuned flintlock's ignition is not as fast as a correctly loaded percussion gun. Can they be fast? Sure! Can a cap-lock be slow to fire, Yes, again. The amount of misinformation that circulates on the web about muzzle loading guns is astronomical. Which is stronger, beliefs or facts? Your perception or scientific data? My Pedersoli Mortimer's ignition correctly loaded seems instantaneous whereas the "pop-Boom" I get loading Pyro-Cr@P in my Navy Arms 12 gauge cap lock is disconcertingly slow. What do we learn comparing apples to oranges?

excuse me, sir - please read again what i typed ... "a flintlock's ignition can be darned fast, if not faster than a cap gun."

there is no "myth perpetuating" happening in my post. a well tuned flintlock, loaded well and touched off correctly, can have fast ignition that's comparable to, or better than, the typical cap lock. does not the video show that? is that rocklock ignition slower than a cap lock or too slow for you?

for either ignition system, LOTS hasta do with the load, the prep and the shooter. what matters is the hammer velocity, the powder/cap and its placement, the chamber charge. my point is that too many folks perceive the flintlock as a slow, kaaaaaaaaa-boom ignition system. my vid shows that's not necessarily true. that is all.

[waksupi]

Somewhere there is an electronically timed test that does show that flintlocks are indeed faster than cap locks. When I hear a cap lock fire, I always think of a hang fire, as it has (to me) a determinable space between cap ignition and firing.

[Maven]

Larry Pletcher has done a lot of testing of FL speed. Here's a link, which is included in one of Waksupi's earlier posts:

Flintlock mythbusters


http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featur...lock-movie.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php)

This page has some real eye openers, as far as vent position, priming position, and various other things we think we "know". Follow through the various parts of the page, and you will find interviews with some of the best builders in the country.


You may also want to google Larry Pletcher for additional information.

[Wayne Smith]

Larry Pletcher has done a lot of testing of FL speed. Here's a link, which is included in one of Waksupi's earlier posts:

Flintlock mythbusters


http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featur...lock-movie.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php)

This page has some real eye openers, as far as vent position, priming position, and various other things we think we "know". Follow through the various parts of the page, and you will find interviews with some of the best builders in the country.


You may also want to google Larry Pletcher for additional information.


Page not found.

[fouronesix]

The video shows a relatively fast flintlock. Yet I can hear the flint hit the frizzen and the frizzen pop forward before the main charge fires. The video does not prove that a flintlock is faster than a cap lock nor does it prove a caplock is faster than a flintlock... it simply shows a relatively fast flintlock.

[Old Scribe]

My own experience with flintlocks is that most people put way too much powder in the pan. That alone will really slow it down.
Agreed.

[Maven]

I couldn't find that page either, but I did find Larry's work on lock timing. Go to blackpowdermagazine.com>Articles>Lock Timing.

[junkpile]

[QUOTE=rfd;3029097]if the lock is well tuned, a flintlock's ignition can be darned fast, if not faster than a cap gun."

Why perpetuate a myth? There is plenty of scientific proof that a well tuned flintlock's ignition is not as fast as a correctly loaded percussion gun. Can they be fast? Sure! Can a cap-lock be slow to fire, Yes, again. The amount of misinformation that circulates on the web about muzzle loading guns is astronomical. Which is stronger, beliefs or facts? Your perception or scientific data? My Pedersoli Mortimer's ignition correctly loaded seems instantaneous whereas the "pop-Boom" I get loading Pyro-Cr@P in my Navy Arms 12 gauge cap lock is disconcertingly slow. What do we learn comparing apples to oranges?

Can you point me to this scientific proof? I'm interested.

[Lead Fred]

I'd call Jim Chambers and tell him your cap gun is faster than his flint locks.

The air compression slows ingition, even with a modern Mike's hotshot nipple, your still fighting against compressed air between the cap and the powder charge.

Most malfunctions I see at rondies are too much powder in the pan.

[Maven]

"The air compression slows ingition, even with a modern Mike's hotshot nipple, your still fighting against compressed air between the cap and the powder charge." ...LF

Lead Fred, I don't understand the above. E.g., The last thing you do after loading a cap lock, i.e., after seating a conical or patched RB atop the powder charge, is to add the percussion cap [to the nipple]. Doesn't seating the projectile drive all the air out of the bbl., regardless of whether you use a vented or plain nipple?

Btw, you're right on the money about overfilled FL pans.

[rfd]

i dunno how much "nipple air compression" matters, but no matter which hole you block up first - nipple or barrel - the remaining hole to get filled should make some sorta seal of the air within the air space 'tween the cap and powder.

[curator]

Junkpile,

There is plenty of scientific evidence, but you have to dig to find it. A few years ago, a High School teacher/black powder shooter (Larry Pletcher) got Lock-maker Jim Chambers to help him run scientific experiments testing various "well tuned" flintlocks against some percussion locks to determine actual "ignition time" and "lock time." What he documented was average percussion ignition time was .02 seconds. Average ignition time from several high-quality, tuned flint locks was .075 seconds. Keep in mind that ignition time is different from lock time. Larry wrote articles in both Muzzle Blasts and BlackPowderMag showing his scientific apparatus and test data. His methodology was excellent. If you want to see some of his youtube videos, follow the postings by him on this site: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=29242.0 You could also refer to W.W. Greener's "The Gun and its Development." Chapter beginning at Page 121 Greener explains the advantage of the percussion gun's speed of ignition over the flint lock. This is in 1871 when the finest flintlocks ever made were still in the field used by experienced shooters!

I love my Manton and Mortimer flintlocks and have learned to load them to get maximum ignition speed. No more Hollywood "foosh-Bangs" for me! Where the difference really shows is with moving targets, as old Reverend Forsythe noticed when he was experimenting with his "pill-lock" and "tube lock," Percussion ignition is (almost 4X) faster as long as the gun is in good condition and loaded correctly. Human senses are just not that sensitive to the small differences in time elapsed to actually tell the difference. A good flint lock shooter has no handicap shooting against a good percussion gun shooter even on moving targets. They just have to adjust their lead or follow-through to match their gun's ignition speed.

[fouronesix]

I haven't seen that test but know of another one done similarly and it also shows about a 2x-3x faster ignition time for the caplock tested vs the flintlock tested. Interesting that two independent tests show almost identical results. For both lock types the ignition time would be considered fast- about .05 seconds or less.

Unfortunately, no matter how many of these tests are run, skeptics will never accept the results. The complaint usually goes something like, "You didn't use the fastest whatever lock and I know the "secret" and the secret wasn't used on purpose", etc.

[rfd]

i'd venture that caplocks are more reliable and they typically will almost always have good ignition, which can make them seem superior to a flintlock. whereas to use a flintlock well takes knowledge and experience in order to make them go b'laaaam and not kah-blam. but for some of us, there ain't much that can compare to a sweet shootin' flintlock. the point isn't about which lock type is fastest, it's that a good flintlock can be made to achieve reliably fast ignition that's at least reasonably comparable to a caplock - it ain't gonna matter much about a few hundreths or thousandths of a second slower or faster. ymmv.

[waksupi]

As far as reliability goes, all I know is, if it starts pouring rain at a shoot, the flint shooters are still on the range shooting, while the majority of cap lock shooters are out of business.

[freebullet]

As far as reliability goes, all I know is, if it starts pouring rain at a shoot, the flint shooters are still on the range shooting, while the majority of cap lock shooters are out of business.

Forgive my ignorance, but why?

[waksupi]

Forgive my ignorance, but why?

Lots of opportunity to get a drop of water in the nipple, or a cap. Especially if the shooter uses a capper, and lets it hang outside his pouch. Many make the most of any opportunity. With a flinter, you wipe out the pan, prime and fire.

[freebullet]

Got it thanks. I'm still looking for my first flintlock project.

[rfd]

a good lock, d/s trigger, and barrel will usually make for a fine rocklock. there's a difference. choose well.

jack garner .36 ...
http://i.imgur.com/ZyLnhPr.png

tip curtis .45 ...
http://i.imgur.com/sdTU6lF.jpg

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do enjoy reading these comparisons of two fine ignition systems. Happily we have gone far beyond the burning cord and spinning wheels.
My preference is the flintlock. They just seem to be right for me.
If you ever get the chance compare a Hall Flintlock to a Hall Cap Lock. The 1819 Hall Flintlock is a breach loader which greatly speeded up reloading rounds per minute. The interesting part is the location of the hammer, frizzen and vent on this flintlock. Everything is on top of the breach just a few inches from the shooters eyes. The vent is near verticle with just a slight slant. On the range you can carefully charge the pan taking time to be sure no grains trickle down that vent. Then firing is reasonably fast. But if you plan to hunt and know your quarry is close at hand then you must be prepared for a longer ignition. I use 3F for priming . Even 2F will trickle down blocking that verticle vent. F will not trickle down generally but also is not the best primer. Then when you do have ignition it is like watching Vesuvius erupting at close quarters. First is the spark clearly visible. Then in those milliseconds the primer goes and finally (whether fast or slow) the main charge ignites with a beautiful column of flame shooting almost straight up again right there just a few inches from your eye. Very disconcerting when trying to follow a moving target.
Then pick up a 1832 Hall Breach Loader Cap Lock. Leaves no wondering in the mind why our military was looking for a better ignition system. Far easier to shoot a moving target. Far easier to reload. Far easier to hunt with.
But I will still take the 1819 Hall Flintlock out hunting over the 1832 Cap Lock model. There is just something about it all that calls out to the real me. May never connect with a trotting coyote or running ground hog. Standing targets are much easier as you all well know. I do keep reminding myself that it took awhile before I finally could shoot crows somewhat reliably with my flinters. So in the end, fastest or slower ignition matters not a whole lot to me. It is the challenge to overcome that which is not easy.
Mike in Peru

[mooman76]

I enjoy these also once they get passed the slamming and really get to the facts instead of exaggerated BS. I shoot a cap lock now but some day plan to take up flint but only when I have the time to learn it right.

[rfd]

i've found (the hard way, by wasting both money and time) that when it comes to flintlock rifles & muskets it pays to get one built correctly, with really good components, and well set up. other than that, the learning curve is all about the flint and how best to load the pan - not a big deal at all.

[waksupi]

i've found (the hard way, by wasting both money and time) that when it comes to flintlock rifles & muskets it pays to get one built correctly, with really good components, and well set up. other than that, the learning curve is all about the flint and how best to load the pan - not a big deal at all.

That covers it in a nut shell.

[OverMax]

Quick lock. Faster ignition than any percussion I ever seen on a traditional style. No doubt about it.