The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo

[trapper9260]

I am not sure this is where to post this but I think some might like to see this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy71umadb6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNfuF3JYWM8

[Digger]

Just a thought ... is that what I think it is sitting next to his knife in the back ground ?

[TXGunNut]

The knife that's missing in the second video? Probably an inert relica or practice grenade but not something I'd keep on my bench.
Interesting video, lots of good info but I disagree with some of the interpretations. I carry what I carry because it shoots well, it's confortable and concealable.
Actually there were some pretty good 9mm rounds available in 1984 but as pointed out they have improved. The FBI argument only holds water if the bullets are expanding reliably in actual shootings, I'm not sure if that's the case and it may very well be. I haven't done any serious reading on the subject in awhile and won't change my choice in carry guns anyway, I'm confident in their capabilities and I'm aware of their limitations.

[nicholst55]

I had read that the FBI was issuing a 9mm pistol to anyone who was unable to qualify with their standard .40 S&W pistol, but this is news to me.

[smkummer]

I disagree with his statement of lousy 45 rounds. I suppose mid-range wadcutters intended for bullseye competition may not be good, but a 45 is never bad, even 45 FMJ is a stopper.

[ksfowler166]

I disagree with his statement of lousy 45 rounds. I suppose mid-range wadcutters intended for bullseye competition may not be good, but a 45 is never bad, even 45 FMJ is a stopper.
Not really, the 45 FMJ is a horrible round. There were several studies conducted over the years by Evan Marshal and Edwin Sanow which collected data from actual police and civilian shooting. I have their second study published in 1996. They found that if a single 45 acp 230gr FMJ hit a persons chest cavity it had a 63%-65% (depending on the manufacturer)chance of stopping the person. To put that in perspective they found that a 32 acp Winchester Silver Tip had a 63% chance of a one shot stop or the notorious Winchester 9mm 147gr JHP which had a one shot stop rating of 74%.

Now this is not a slam against the 45 acp it is a very effective round just not with FMJ's. The 45 acp Federal 230gr HS actually beat out all other pistol rounds with a rating of 94% except for the Fed. and Rem. 357 mag 125gr JHP with 96%.

[Multigunner]

Now this is not a slam against the 45 acp it is a very effective round just not with FMJ's.
Did they do a comparasion using FMJ .32 and 9mm. A friend took five hits in body and face from a .380 and broke the shooters arm then nearly beat him to death. One round passed from under his jaw through his palet and out under his left eye, fortunately for him I suppose his left eye was glass from a accident as a teenager otherwise he'd have lost it then.He lost a kidney also but blood loss wasn't fast enough to put him out before the cops and rescue squad got there.
I seriously doubt that he'd have faired so well from five .45 ACP FMJ.

I've seen combat footage from Iraq of a rather large Jihadi taking most of a mag of 9mm STANAG including hits in the groin and still nearly beating the Marine who shot him barehanded. I expect that Marine tried to get a .45 issued after that.

Only shortcoming I see to the .45 is lesser penetration of light sheet metal of automobiles.
I've tested both the 1911 and the P-35 on an auto body and found even commercial 9mm FMJ would out penetrate the .45 steel jacket FN ammo on doors and door frames. It was a 59 Chysler that had been washed into a swamp years before by a hurricane then stripped and abandoned, so the steel was fairly thick for a car body.
Only reason I traded off my 1911A1 was because a hand injury made the grip safety a problem.

[JSnover]

When it's apples to apples the bigger bullet wins. Comparing hardball to hp is a waste of time.

[pjames32]

Interesting. I can draw a few conclusions: 1. Math, science and statistics have changed in the 45 years since I graduated from college to allow preconceived conclusions to be valid. 2. The elk I shoot in the hind quarter with my 45-70 at less than 2000fps will have damaged meat only in the permanent wound channel. 3. I should start saving my $'s to prepare for the 40 S&W guns that will be coming on the market when the FBI makes the change. YMMV
PJ

[JSnover]

Maybe the FBI contract Hanes for the rest of their weapons and ammunition, seems like they change gear the way the rest of change our skivvies.

[ksfowler166]

Did they do a comparasion using FMJ .32 and 9mm.
First let me say that these numbers are subject to change since they are based on actual shootings not ballistic gel tests. Results also will change if the shooting would have not been included in the study, ie multiple hits or hits to other body parts besides the chest cavity.

As such the Winchester 32 acp FMJ had 123 total shootings with 62 one shot stops (50%), the Federal 380acp FMJ had 131 shootings with 67 stops (51%), the Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ had 256 shootings with 161 stops (63%), and the Winchester 45 acp 230gr FMJ had 179 shootings with 112 stops (63%).

The moral is don't use ball ammunition unless you are military or live in NJ and are restricted to FMJs. Since anything from the 32 acp up to the 45 Colt loaded with the best loads for that caliber will easily beat 45 acp ball ammo.

[Lee]

I'll throw the BS towel here. 2center mass, 1 Head. I don't care what it is if you can't hit your target.
The rest of this sn't worth listening to. I dumped part 2 w/o even looking. This self absorbed eggspurt needs shot once or twice. Then lets hear him yap.

Waste of good bandwidth..................... Col.Cooper.....

[willie_pete]

I don't think they forgot the lesson of the Miami shoot-out.

wP

[shooter93]

Read Jimmy Cirrilo's books. He was part of the NYC stake out squad and those boys got in a lot of shoot outs. Their job was to lie in wait in the back of stores that goy robbed before or were likely candidates and stop the perpetrators. They rarely just gave up. The only one stop shots they had....and this includes pistol rounds up to the 44 mag and 12 gauge slugs was with a 30 carbine with smoked up 100-120 grain hollow points. The one place that dropped the bad guy instantly was a shot to the "posterior" It shattered the hip or SI joint and down they went. They weren't dead but it gave you a 'breather" The shot worked about the same when it was taken face on also. Two members of the stake out squad liked it so much they shot everyone there and were dubbed....The Proctologists. Cirillo patented a "drop away" round nose cover for the 45 acp which allowed the use of full wadcutters in a 1911. Few were made but it never really caught on. You snapped it over the bullet when loading....they were allowed reloads. Political correctness took over and things got changed....can't hurt criminals now a days. His books are great reading, most of you here would enjoy them I think.

[kfarm]

Some bullets may be better or worse than others but I don't want to be shot with anything bb's to 45.

[TXGunNut]

Remember, this "solution" is to address the problem of a high percentage of misses with expensive, harder recoiling ammo that had a tendency to wear out guns sooner. They wanted a higher number of less expensive rounds that are easier on the gun and shooter. I guess "grip, sight alignment, trigger control" isn't flashy enough for the FBI.

[knifemaker]

I think you will see many police departments and sheriff dept. drop the 40 S&W and go to the 9mm now based on the new bullets for that caliber that is suppose to increase it's stopping power. My old dept. is dropping their 40 S&W and going to 9mm Glocks. Glock firearms will be the big winner for law enforcement firearms.

[Three44s]

Let them foolishly trade their "40's" away ....... maybe one will land on my doorstep!

I smell beancounters and PC folks afoot!

The beancounters will trade away officer safety for some savings on ammo:

In Washington State the beancounters found that the cost of the FREIGHT on the ammo was going to be less for 9mm as opposed to 40 .......... and chose 9mm for the Dept. of Corrections base on that.

The ammo and guns were the same cost ..........

......... JUST the freight was higher! ........... Can you imagine that??

The other likely force ....... PCism ......... is that since SOME officers are not up to the task of handling a 40 ....... then everyone must suffer downsizing. One size fits all .......... the lowest of common denominators!

Ain't life grand?

Three 44s

[Multigunner]

The one place that dropped the bad guy instantly was a shot to the "posterior" It shattered the hip or SI joint and down they went. They weren't dead but it gave you a 'breather" The shot worked about the same when it was taken face on also.
Awhile back I suggested a round to the hip joint was a good way to take the fight out of an unarmed foe without killing and nobody seeemed to have ever heard of such a thing.
A side kick to the hip joint has put a few down for me, quicker than a dislocated knee cap.

Seems like most hunters know a round to the hip will anchor almost any living creature lions and cape buff included, but few seem to appreciate its value against a biped when one leg is a lot less useful than three.

Between the groin and the belt line is another good spot, the hypogastic plexus. Legs go out from under them toot sweet.

[dakotashooter2]

I think you will see many police departments and sheriff dept. drop the 40 S&W and go to the 9mm now based on the new bullets for that caliber that is suppose to increase it's stopping power. My old dept. is dropping their 40 S&W and going to 9mm Glocks. Glock firearms will be the big winner for law enforcement firearms.

If they can increase the stopping power of the 9mm with a new bullet shouldn't they be able to do the same with the 40 or even 45. I think the 9s are popular because of mag capacity. you will always be able to squeeze a few more round into a 9mm. It's a substitute for shooting skill. The bean counters can't afford to let the officers practice as much so they just give them high capacity to make up for it.

[Plate plinker]

Wait a minute.... Money matters to the FB1?
i don't see why they can't have wimps loads for the girls and girly men. And real ammo for the rest of the guys and Sheila's.

[Rick Hodges]

The older I get the more things seem to go round and round...will we ever learn from history? It was the FBI and their team of "forensic expert Doctors" that gave us the 9mm and light bullet 38 craze...as the best "man stoppers". Their argument was that penetration was a waste, the nerves and blood vessels near the surface needed to be destroyed to make one shot stops. Remember the Super Vel and 90-110gr. 38's? It was a fine theory until the tire hits the road. That "theory" kinda blew up on the surface and got people killed... The people making the decisions are not the same ones facing the threat.

Oh yeah please don't quote that hack Marshall and his friend, they had a vested interest in selling their ammunition and their results were thoroughly discredited. I.E. they made things up of whole cloth and got caught at it.

For the gentleman who claims the .45 is a poor stopper, particularly in fmj form.... I agree with you....all handguns are poor stoppers...its just that the .45 cal. bullet of 220-260 gr. at 800-900fps has been best of the lot since 1873. I dare say that is has more "stops" than all others combined, at least in this nations history.

The FBI and PD desk jockeys can argue once again about how many angels dance on the head of a pin...I am sure they will come up with an answer that will involve costing the taxpayer a lot of money. They will get their perk and freebies and take cushy jobs upon retirement. (read up on how Glock got this countries PD business) The secret to being a "successful" bureaucrat us finding a way to get a bigger share of the pie...more funding. Keep the market churning....new studies, new needs, more appropriations.

Enough of this for me...someday I will tell you what I really think...:kidding:

[Elkins45]

The Marshall and Sanow data was WORSE that worthless because of their methodology alone. They disregarded any event where the bad guy was shot more than once in order to compare just "one shot stops". So imagine 100 shootings with a 9mm round where in 99 of those shootings the bad guy kept fighting even after taking 9-10 rounds and in one of those shootings he dropped after the first. M&S would throw out the first 99 and give it a 100% one shot stop rating because the one time (out of many) a guy was shot with it once he dropped. The fact that people had to be shot more than once was relevant data but there was no way to calculate one shot stops when including multiple shots.

It would have been a better rating system if they had calculated shots per stop and given that as a relative scale where the lowest number (1) was the best.

[Hogtamer]

Somebody mentioned shotgun slugs as ineffective? Somebody needs to visit the shotgun forum. No man and few beasts will stand against an ounce (2 of the measley .45s) of COWW 12 ga slugs moving @ 1500 fps.

[MT Gianni]

Nephew did an internship this past summer in DC. If all goes well he will be hired upon college graduation. He is a shooter but the reality is FBI are involved in so few shootings these days this matters little until the next Miami shooting in a decade or more. Reality now is that sending in a drone would be a better option than get extra men involved.

[Bonz]

Great videos, thanks for sharing

[Piedmont]

The Marshall and Sanow data was WORSE that worthless because of their methodology alone. They disregarded any event where the bad guy was shot more than once in order to compare just "one shot stops". So imagine 100 shootings with a 9mm round where in 99 of those shootings the bad guy kept fighting even after taking 9-10 rounds and in one of those shootings he dropped after the first. M&S would throw out the first 99 and give it a 100% one shot stop rating because the one time (out of many) a guy was shot with it once he dropped. The fact that people had to be shot more than once was relevant data but there was no way to calculate one shot stops when including multiple shots.

It would have been a better rating system if they had calculated shots per stop and given that as a relative scale where the lowest number (1) was the best.

I agree completely. So many misinterpret what M&S came up with for their percentages.

[xs11jack]

You guys are badmouthing the FBI too much. Think of all the money that they pour into the firearms industry. And all the lightly used firearms they put on the market for us to play with.
Ole Jack

[TXGunNut]

Nephew did an internship this past summer in DC. If all goes well he will be hired upon college graduation. He is a shooter but the reality is FBI are involved in so few shootings these days this matters little until the next Miami shooting in a decade or more. Reality now is that sending in a drone would be a better option than get extra men inolved.

Yes, FBI agents are generally not shooters. But then again the same can be said of most peace officers. As long as beancounters can't see the value of range time and practice ammo that won't change. Come to think of it, last I heard the alphabet guys trained and qualified with what most cops would call duty ammo. Cheap practice ammo just won't do when Uncle Sugar is writing the check.

[cajun shooter]

Being a former Law Enforcement Officer and Firearms Instructor with 6 years as an Narcotics Agent, I think I should add to this posting. First thing is I attended many schools while in Law enforcement. I went to over 10 firearms schools and to the FBI Firearms Instructor School. The schools are all top drawer and you don't receive a diploma for just attending. The FBI FAI school was very intense as we started with 47 students and only graduated 22 to give you an idea about their level of training. It is true that for the past 25 years or so they have hired more personal with law and business degrees than combat veterans.
This talk about where you should direct your fire to stop a felon is a made for TV movie only! If you have been in any confrontation where shots are fired at you and the pucker factor kicks in, the best shots MISS!! I lost two riding partners while serving and I fired my gun more than once. I was the top instructor yet I missed an attacking Doberman inside a home. The real thing is quite different from anything you will ever do. I think that the average kill shot is only fired about 22% of the time when all police shootings are compared. If you ever come to that time when you may have to fire to protect yourself or someone else, I strongly suggest that you fire for center mass and that you don't just fire one round and expect the threat to stop. You should continue to fire until the threat is no more, regardless of the rounds expended. You will be judged in court on the first round only. The others are free. If you have the correct things come into play for you to use deadly force then you will only have a split second to make yourself a survivor or a victim. The rest of the world will have days, months and years to decide if you were correct in using that force. Take Care David

[shooter93]

I think that's it in a nutshell David. You can think, plot or train until the cows come home but things tend to go awry when the target is shooting back. Cirillo and those boys got in a tremendous number of shoot outs. He was in one the first night on the squad. They used pretty much any weapon they wanted and any load. Some shots could incapacitate the guy but the trick was hitting it. They pretty much are given credit for the infamous "New York reload" they carried 2 or 3 handguns and just dropped one when empty and started with another one until the fight was over. Nothing wrong with preparations or training but incoming rounds have a way of changing things rather quickly for the vast majority of human beings.

[John in WYO]

I carried a city-issued Sig P226 from 1987-1995 during my first 20 year career. Original ammo was Winchester 115 Silvertip +P, then Winchester 147 Subsonic (-P, grin) and finally Federal 115 9BPLE +P+.

Used it in uniform, special operations and criminal investigations. Never had to shoot anybody with it during the time I carried it. But I had plenty of confidence in it. After carrying an issued .38 special for the previous 10 years, why wouldn't I?

I'd feel plenty comfortable carrying that pistol on duty today, working an Interstate in rural environments. But, I think I'd go exclusively with the CorBon ammo using a solid copper DPX bullet,115+P.

(But really, given a choice I'd slap on a Sig P220 .45ACP in a heartbeat. Which is what I was issued for the last two years of my first 20. Those were the days....)

[MtGun44]

No question that the premium bullets today have narrowed the gap between 9mm and 45 ACP, but I do not
buy that there is NO difference. I shoot .45 ACP and 9mm frequently and the claim that 9mm is easier to shoot
is highly questionable. The only real benefit, IMO, is that there are more rounds in the 9mm - and they admit
that they miss 75-80% of their shots. I have never been in a real gunfight, so cannot prove it, but I do believe
that my many years of pistol competition in various speed and accuracy oriented sports (bullseye and IPSC, and
IDPA) increase the likelihood that I will have a lot better than 20-25% shots on target if I am ever required
to defend myself.

They switched because the 9mm Silvertip, a pretty decent 9mm bullet, failed to do the job that they wanted in the
'86 Miami shootout. Now, a new generation of managers and accountants are going back to that same situation. I
seriously doubt that current 9mm bullets are enough better than the Silvertip to warrant their actions.

HOWEVER - I will endeavor to locate some ballistic gelatin testing of a 9mm Silvertip to compare to the best out
there like Gold Dots, Golden Saber, PDX and HydraShock JHPs to more closely examine how different the
results are with the current bullets. I suspect that the differences in penetration and final expanded diameter
are pretty small.

SO - back to the ammo class that failed in Miami, and the last 35 years of FBI effort goes down the memory
hole. Lesson unlearned.

Bottom line - 9mm is cheaper and 80% of them get expended on the scenery, so what the heck.

All that said: Anybody the knowingly goes to a gunfight without getting a rifle or shotgun is an idiot. Pistols
are for accidental situations.

Bill

[Lefty Red]

The only good thing about science is that it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not to be true. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What we believe to be true, sometimes isn't. Even if to goes against "common sense". Critical thinking should override ego.

Jerry

[beroen]

I have no dog in this fight but I came across these and found them interesting. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/05/b1806272a9ccdd498728939c8483cf5d.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/05/43a954f61bed59ab800d72eb58160fe7.jpg

[John in WYO]

In reviewing the second chart, I ponder how does one fire half a round?

[NavyVet1959]

In reviewing the second chart, I ponder how does one fire half a round?

Well, I guess you *could* incapacitate two people with a single round...

The second chart is interesting though. It shows a .22 being more effective than any other listed handgun round.

Even though this is about averages, I have to wonder if perhaps the typical shooting with a .22 is not the same as the typical shooting with a 9mm or .40SW. I suspect that very few cops are shooting criminals with .22s, whereas it would not be unreasonable to think that 9mm and .40SW were more heavily represented in police shootings. Statistics can mean anything you want them to mean, it's just a matter of how you interpret them.

It's like how the newspapers like to post articles periodically saying that of all vehicles stolen in Texas, Ford pickups are stolen the most, followed by Chevy, and then by Dodge. What they fail to mention is that this also the order of the most popular vehicles in Texas and that their "statistics" are raw numbers, not vehicles of a particular make/model stolen vs the same make/model registered. As such, their "statistics" are basically meaningless.

[Love Life]

Get on the trigger and stay on the trigger until the threat is no longer a threat.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

All that said: Anybody the knowingly goes to a gunfight without getting a rifle or shotgun is an idiot. Pistols
are for accidental situations.

This is why swat uses rifle and shotguns, mainly. Backup may have pistols, but rifles are the first through the door.

[oldsagerat]

My father was a Marine and later a sheriff's deputy. He carried
a 45 in the Pacific and killed plenty with it. He had to carry
a revolver as a deputy but carried the 45 as "backup". They should
keep improving ammo, but none of it is much good unless you can
hit your target under stress and know where to shoot them. Most cops shoot a lot of rounds mainly because they are justifiably scared. Most cops I know do NOT practice much with their weapons and don't do recreational shooting. A lot of them don't
like guns at all, but have to carry them. Its a no-win situation.
Sad.

[GabbyM]

My father was a Marine and later a sheriff's deputy. He carried
a 45 in the Pacific and killed plenty with it. He had to carry
a revolver as a deputy but carried the 45 as "backup". They should
keep improving ammo, but none of it is much good unless you can
hit your target under stress and know where to shoot them. Most cops shoot a lot of rounds mainly because they are justifiably scared. Most cops I know do NOT practice much with their weapons and don't do recreational shooting. A lot of them don't
like guns at all, but have to carry them. Its a no-win situation.
Sad.

Not to sure what's so sad about that. "COPS" or law enforcement officers. Are with any luck devoted to helping people. Not punching bullet holes into them. Most of them IMHO are. Well at least over 50% maybe. So when we get a deal like Ferguson MO where a cop with a fine record has to shoot a man in self defense. Should we just say he is a killer because he could not hand to hand defeat the man in combat. Had to use his evil gun to stay alive. I have two things to offer up here. First is. I'll guarantee everyone here that in spite of my old ma feeble appearance. I could of taken that pitiful fat *** in Ferguson down in a heart beat. A wood pencil would of come in handy but I've taken out better with less. Next thing is not to many of you would want me being your local constable. What I'd be good at is choosing who would be a good LEO.

As for the 9mm round. Anyone who thinks it matters is inexperienced. 45's are by far better at blowing rattle snakes apart as are 44's. So what. Personally I've settled out on 38 Special revolvers. To old to bend over to pick up brass. That is a valid factor by the way. Then the 177 grain 358429 at 900 fps is a formidable piece of whoop ***. I've a six shot Colt Police Positive stuck in my pants pocket right now as I sit in my home. Sine if he knew I was the one who put him there . A certain drug dealer. or former drug dealer that is. Would have his posse out for me. Then there are al the other want to be bad boys who think they don't have to pay bills or whatever. I know how to make enemies and frankly revel in it. Google search "prayer of St Michael"
Then whatever. Better to just say I'm not very impressed by stupid punks. More over. If they come armed with a 9 or a 40 I don't see much difference. Nor vise versa.

[TXGunNut]

(snip) I have never been in a real gunfight, so cannot prove it, but I do believe that my many years of pistol competition in various speed and accuracy oriented sports (bullseye and IPSC, and IDPA) increase the likelihood that I will have a lot better than 20-25% shots on target if I am ever required to defend myself. (snip) -MtGun44

Well said Bill, and my informal research supports your conclusion. I was a longtime PPC competitor and many of my fellow competitors were gunfight veterans, almost all were police firearms instructors as well. For many years we had a clean record of active PPC shooters involved in gunfights until one was killed (in NYC, IIRC) in a no-win situation. Because of my years of competition I had a confidence that I believe helped me in many situations over the years.
I'll never forget the story of a Dallas officer who had to fire multiple rounds of DPD issued subsonic 9mm ammo to finally reach a suspect behind the windshield of a sporstcar. He remembers concentrating on sight alignment and trigger control because he knew a single round would not penetrate and reach the bad guy but several in the exact same spot would. He was right, I believe it was the 7th and subsequent rounds that finally penetrated and stopped the shooter that was trying to shoot his partner.

[gnostic]

No offence, but, the gel tests don't support your theory. The 40 cal is already loaded flat out. And, if you believe, what you see on-line, the 9mm out performs the 40 cal in ballistic gel. I don't have a dog in the fight, it's just an observation. My theory is, power thrills but speed kills...

[Rick Hodges]

I am amazed! First computer simulations dictated that lightweight high speed projectiles were the "superior" stopping round....and the FBI carried them, except for a few old dinosaurs....until the rounds proved a disaster in real life and death situations. Now we talk about "gel tests" proving the superiority of the 9mm? Is that gel covered in heavy clothing?, could there be an arm in front of the torso? ribs? sternum? glass? drywall?.....
Lets ignore over 100 yrs of history...with real life shootings...a history that has shown the 9mm in any bullet configuration is a mediocre stopper at best and decidedly inferior to larger caliber handguns. Sorry, any newfangled bullet that works better in a 9 can be developed for a 10 or a 45. I don't care what color lipstick you put on it...a pig is still a pig. In real life, expanding bullets Don't Always Expand. Delta Force carry .45's and the Marine Corps has put in a requirement for a new handgun...a .45. In every case when we have adopted the .35 bore, since the first 38's in the Philippines...it had been a failure.
People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. The sad part, for me, is that the people making the decisions are not the ones whose butt is on the line.

[NavyVet1959]

I am amazed! First computer simulations dictated that lightweight high speed projectiles were the "superior" stopping round....and the FBI carried them, except for a few old dinosaurs....until the rounds proved a disaster in real life and death situations. Now we talk about "gel tests" proving the superiority of the 9mm? Is that gel covered in heavy clothing?, could there be an arm in front of the torso? ribs? sternum? glass? drywall?.....
Lets ignore over 100 yrs of history...with real life shootings...a history that has shown the 9mm in any bullet configuration is a mediocre stopper at best and decidedly inferior to larger caliber handguns.

But, if you change that 9mm to a .357, it becomes a pretty good stopper.

Take a .223 round, cut it off at the shoulder, and stick a 9mm bullet in it at that point. That should give you plenty of powder space.

[Multigunner]

The second chart is interesting though. It shows a .22 being more effective than any other listed handgun round.

Even though this is about averages, I have to wonder if perhaps the typical shooting with a .22 is not the same as the typical shooting with a 9mm or .40SW.
I have a feeling that most shootings involving a .22 handgun are at extreme close range with bullets to the head or contact wounds to the area around the heart.

[GabbyM]

You've appoint rick. I've always been a 9mm fan. But don't have any dilutions. They will do some things better than a 45 acp. Like penetrate steel wheel rims. But not when you dumb them down with typical police ammo of HP design. When the US Arm picked there caliber for the new hand gun trials that lead to the 1911 adoption. Story goes. they went to the Chicago stock yards and shot a bunch of hogs in the lot. Since this was just after the turn of 19th century they tested stuff like 30 Mauser/ Luger, 38 Special/auto, 9mm Luger and some others. I very much doubt there fondness of the 45 Colt swayed the decision as they had things like stop watches. They found hogs died faster when shot with the 45 caliber. They used different bullets and loads. Someone here may have a handy link to the report.

That said I've never been a 45 acp fan shot one a couple weeks ago and remembered why. but "I'm so stoned I've fallen out of love with autos all together. Old service revolvers in 38 Special are my new little friends. I've the NOE copy of Lyman 358429 going just under 900 fps over H-Universal with a bullet weight of 177 grains. It's actually pretty impressive. with a set of low cost Hogue grips on the M15 or M10 heavy 4" barrel recovery time is nill. Just what the trigger pull sequence is. Now I'm not saying that a good PPC shooter couldn't clean my clock with a 1911. But I very much impressed the fellow shooters. Who were both AZ state D.O.C. officers who up to recently had to carry 38 Special revolvers. But they had to also use those pansy LE loads. My loads are not listed as +P but I don't shoot them in my old revolvers. Save those for wad cutters and they are super accurate with them. What impressed the boys is how I had to wait on the heavy steel swinger to come back down so I could shoot it again. They had no such issue with there 1911's as the plate was swinging away by the time they'd hit it again. They did beat me in all the scoring games we shot so I have to claim victory someplace. Short of it is it always going to be more who's behind the sights than 50 or so foot pounds one way or the other. That said if I had my son in laws job. Of transporting Arizona State Prison inmates in a van. I'd be happy with the Glock 40's they are now issued with a 15 round mag in the grip and more on the belt. Plus the electronic com gear. Except I really don't' think my nerves would of held up on that job as a youthful man.

The way I read this development on the FBI returning to 9mm. Is they wear suites with concealed carry pistols. So we have several nice miniature 9mm pistols around that are really to small to shoot with the recoil of a 40 S&W. I could be all wet there but I think not. There patrol rifle or shotgun in the car is after all there main gun.

[GabbyM]

I have a feeling that most shootings involving a .22 handgun are at extreme close range with bullets to the head or contact wounds to the area around the heart.

I have a feeling that most shootings with a 22 involve shooters who realize they don't have a cannon and actually take an aimed shot. Plus it's a lot easier to get results in an ambush murder situation than self defense. Charts shows the 9mm really low and that's simply because shooters think they have unlimited ammo and shoot center of mass as fast as they can pull the trigger. Same sort of thing with 44 mag. Shooters think a hit anywhere will blow opponent in half. Which just isn't true.

[GaryN]

Pretty long winded and I didn't finish. I decided he was trying to tell me the earth was flat.

[shdwlkr]

lets look at a few things when I was a kid police carried the 38 special then the 357 mag both revolvers then they needed more fire power and they went to the semi autos. First I think it was the 9mm then the 10 mm then the 40 now we are going back to the 9mm. I will admit that powder, bullets, firearms have improved over the decades. Yes I have access to a 38 special, 44 special, 9mm, 38 super, 45ACP, 357 mag to name a few and all have there place in life.
I like the .35 calibers with 158-180 grain bullets, the 9mm &38 super with 135 grain, the 44 special with 255 grain, the 45 ACP 230 grain If you notice I like heavy bullets. Speed in flight is nice but if you need a barn door to hit something what good is it, if you don't train a lot what good is any bullet, lastly in a gun fight there is only one winner if you like and that is the guy who gets to go home afterwards.
The FBI fires few rounds anymore they are more lawyers, business, mental assessment individuals, they are a resource more than a policing agency. It that a good thing I don't know I am not an FBI agent, they have more women, small build individuals, few come from a shooting background as a kid growing up. I like to think we are becoming more civilized and see more that we are going the opposite direction anymore.
As to what the FBI wants to use as their duty round that is up to the bean counters at the FBI. But it is strange that the military is going away from the 9mm and the FBI is going towards it. Something is missing in this puzzle and I wonder if it is as simple as they need to spend more money to keep their funding up.