RN vs SWC or other types for hunting

[Malamute]

I've shot some game with various handguns, not tons of large stuff, but a fair amount of smaller game. The differences I've seen between RN bullets and Lyman/Keith bullets I can only describe as profound in the effect on game, and the look of the wounds. The SWC wounds generally looked bruised and bloodshot, the RN wounds clean, and not so much reaction from the game to the hit in comparison. Have had a number of instances of jack rabbits getting up and running off after body hits with 45 auto ball ammo, and RN 44 spl and 45 Colt loads also. I've heard others comment they've had similar results.

Do any of you guys have larger game experience to compare RN vs SWC bullet types with, and are my results on smaller game up to coyotes and deer unique?


ETA: Please note, I'm interested in discussing actual hunting use, and the actual details of such use, not test media and results. Thanks!

ETA again: If your post doesn't include the words "I shot X animal with Y bullet" its probably off topic. This isnt the bullet theory thread, its the hunting experiences thread. Thanks.

[jmort]

Lead Bullets Technology
Wide Flat Nose - WFN
Wide Long Nose - WLN

[Malamute]

Yes, I've heard of them.

The question I'm asking, is how do others experiences with RN vs SWC or other types, including the LBT types with large flat noses, compare in effect on game?

[trickyasafox]

I too have been curious about a nice SWC profile, or even a RNFP or TC design. I have had good luck with 357 shooting heavy 180gr LSWC that were good on deer, but that was only 1 animal and 1 caliber, so I'm hesitant to generalize.

Corrected, because you can hunt with RN in my area, and I need to read the regs more often apparently . . . :oops:

[claude]

The semi wadcutter will always outperform (make a bigger wound channel) the round nose bullet of the same caliber launched at the same speed. I use them in my 44mag and they are devastating on deer and black bear, Elmer knew what he wrought, and it hasn't changed with age.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

[Malamute]

The semi wadcutter will always outperform (make a bigger wound channel) the round nose bullet of the same caliber launched at the same speed. I use them in my 44mag and they are devastating on deer and black bear, Elmer knew what he wrought, and it hasn't changed with age.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm


Yes, that's my experience as well. I didn't explain very well in my first post. I guess I'm more looking for more specific comparative experiences more than general agreement with the principal, if that makes sense. Such as, "with RN bullets this happened, and with Keiths or X bullets, this is what happened", with descriptions of wound channels, amount of damaged tissue, animals being downed quickly or not, etc.

One guy from Alaska on another forum had some great pictures of bullet holes in bears he shot with the 454 and certain bullets. I wish I'd taken pictures when I was cutting animals open after shooting them with differtent loads. I wasn't into photography at that point though, it was mainly to satisfy personal curiosity. Perhaps other people don't "autopsy" their game looking to see specifically what the bullet did, I don't know. I wish we had more definitive information on different types than generalities.

Perhaps another way to say it, I'm looking for specific reasons people believe what they do about different bullet types performance in game, based on specific results and experiences, rather than just agreeing with the principal.

[jhalcott]

One year I hunted with only cast bullets in my guns. These were handguns and rifles of various calibers. I shot deer and ground hogs. The deer were crop raiders and needed a permit to kill them. I used FN and RN bullets. I tried a few "soft nosed" cast also. The RN of straight ACWW or harder alloy rarely dropped the animal even with solid body hits, most ground hogs got back to their holes. Deer ran for a long way before they died. Several of them had been punched thru the lungs AND heart, but still went over 100 yards. With the same bullets "soft nosed", the animals reacted like they were hit by lightening! Checking the internal damage showed the effects of a hollow point at high velocity. This damage was also seen with flat nosed bullets in all calibers. I try for an ACCURATE load at around 2000 fps muzzle velocity in rifles. In handguns, the velocity can be much slower. I test my loads in wet pack for accuracy and penetration at the longest range I expect to use them. "Soft nose" cast bullets have worked very well for me at velocities below 1000 fps at the muzzle using heavy for caliber bullets. Like 175 grains in 7mm and 260 grains in 44 mag.

[jmort]

The LBT will always outperform the SWC.

[Malamute]

The LBT will always outperform the SWC.

Thanks for the contribution, but can you share how we know this? Examples in use, personal experiences with both, etc?

Basically, youre sharing an opinion, rather than explaining why you believe this, which is what I'm really looking for.

Thanks jhalcott, good post. This is more along the lines of what I'm looking for.

[jmort]

"There aren't many predictive methods calibrated to actual field results or to controlled tests. What there is only pertains to a particular set of circumstances, that being the use of non-deforming bullets or those which deform to an insignificant degree. Moreover, the first of these quasi-analytical models that I will describe is not reliable unless the bullet has a relatively wide flat region at its point. The following method is adapted from the work of Veral Smith of Lead Bullet Technology (LBT), as described in his book, Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets.
He observed that the wound (or channel in test media) caused by hardcast flat-nosed lead bullets was proportional to velocity and to the diameter of the flat portion of the nose. I am impressed by the tests which he conducted, because he found by blacking the noses and shoulders of the bullet types he tested that the notion long held that a Keith-style semi-wadcutter cut a hole on the basis of its shoulder diameter (as opposed to its nose) was incorrect; the blacking on the shoulders was intact, only the nose was clean (this phenomenon may differ at much lower velocities or different nose shapes). On the basis of his testing, he developed cast bullet designs which are nearly cylindrical and feature a very wide flat point. These bullets are regarded as the ultimate in performance for handgun hunters in pursuit of heavy game and they also provide excellent performance in rifles chambered for older cartridges which accommodate the use of cast bullets."

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

[Malamute]

Interesting, but do you have anything that's based on animal/hunting experience use, rather than test medium, and from users rather than the promoter of a particular bullet?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather get away from the "we all know this is how it is" thing so prevalent online or in our favorite books, and use real life examples and experiences that explain we believe what we do in an analytical manor. I believe test media can tell us things, but still, I haven't seen or heard of any test media that truly reflects actual use on live animals. I'd be more impressed it he blacked the noses of bullets and shot live animals with them rather than test media of any kind.

[TMenezes]

Its simple really, the lead round nose and full metal jacket type rounds create very small wound channels because the flesh is simply pushed aside and the bullet passes through with minimum effect. The wound actually closes back in on itself and limits bleeding. Now if you have a flat point (or HP) the damage is much more severe, instead of pushing the flesh aside crushes it and creates larger permanent wound cavity.

I can always tell whether someone (or something) has been shot with a full metal jacket because virtually anything else produces much more damage. I work in law enforcement in an area that has the most amount of gang violence per capita of anywhere in the US so I get to this physical evidence first hand. One time some gangsters had done a drive by on a house. Most of the cheap full metal jacket 9mm rounds were stopped by the thick stucko type exterior of the house. One of the rounds went through the window and hit a 54yr old woman (who incidentally was an old gang member and the mother of the young male gangsters that were the intended target). The small fmj round went right through her causing fairly minimal damage and came to rest inside their VCR for the tv. The woman was patched up and sent to the hospital. She is fine now and is living proof of the round nose type bullets cause the least amount of damage of any bullet design.

My friends in the military confirm the very poor performance of the fmj on living targets with many very graphic stories. Bottom line, its common sense, just look at a bullet and picture what it would do when going through something squishy.

[quilbilly]

Prepare for a data dump!!
Depends on the testing media. I use soaked compressed phone book with a sheet of 3/16" sheet of plywood veneer one inch in to simulate a clipped rib bone. All tests are done at a range of 40 yards (a common range in the Olympic Peninsula "rainforest"). I have tested round nose boolits in 30 cal (160 gr), 6mm (87 gr), and 358 (150 gr), spire point boolits in 258 (103 gr), SWC in 358 (173 and 160 gr), and RNFP in 30 cal (113 gr.) and 358 (125 gr).
The round nose 30, 6mm, and spire point at a muzzle velocity of 1800 fps penetrated at least 16" with small wound channels until they started tumbling about 8" in then left vicious wound channels much larger than the SWC at any point. There was little expansion with my alloy. The round nose 358 at a muzzle velocity of 1250 Fps penetrated 10"
The semi wadcutters penetrated a maximum of 11" even though one boolit had an mv of 1800 and another had an Mv of 1400 with moderate wound channels but significant expansion using the same alloy.
The 113 gr 30 cal RNFP at 1350 Fps penetrated 14" and had excellent expansion while the 358 RNFP at 1200 fps penetrated 9" with little boolit deformation.
The bottom line is what you want the boolit to do at the terminal velocity you want it to do it.
I hunt with a muzzleloader and have used both semi wadcutters in sabots and round ball for game both at a muzzle velocity (calculated) of about 1700 Fps. For elk I wouldn't use anything else but a SWC even though I have used both successfully. The results on elk with aSWC at 70 yards are often amazing. On the other hand, for deer I quit using SWC in favor of round ball because even at 150 yards plus, the SWC made little-hole-in-little-hole-out requiring serious tracking in heavy rain while a PRB regularly caused somersaults and short tracking.
There is often a trade off between penetration vs. striking vs power vs flatter trajectory and you will just have to determine what you need for your own conditions. This is what is fun about being a caster. You can tailor the right boolit and alloy for your needs then make it yourself.
My next tests will be my 444 with a 310 gr RNFP-GC and my 338 with a 220 gr RNGC. That should be interesting.

[claude]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather get away from the "we all know this is how it is"

I see. What you are asking will require pictures, narrative alone won't get you there unless the writer is extremely gifted and verbose as well.

Even with the fantastic knowledge base represented on this site, it's like pulling hens teeth to get specific answers. Good luck sir!! ;-)

[jmort]

Like they said on The X Files, "The truth is out there." It is not difficult to get answers, but most every answer is already here.

[Wolfer]

Having shot a considerable number of game I've found only one absolute. That there is no absolutes.
In my 45 cal pistols I prefer something like the lee 228 RN of the 255 RF for small game like grouse or rabbits. They just punch a 45 cal hole without too much damage.
The Keith type boolits make a bigger wound channel. I much prefer them for deer, coyote etc.

However the end result, distance traveled after the shot seems about the same.

[MT Gianni]

A grouse hit with a 38 258 gr rn will run a long ways, with the swc they do not move far.

[Malamute]

I see. What you are asking will require pictures, narrative alone won't get you there unless the writer is extremely gifted and verbose as well.

Even with the fantastic knowledge base represented on this site, it's like pulling hens teeth to get specific answers. Good luck sir!! ;-)

Pictures would be nice, but mainly I'm looking for first hand accounts of having used both RN and Keith types (or more like the LBTs or whatever) on game, and what the observed differences were in effect and degree of wounds. As I mentioned before, test media can tell us a lot, but it isn't the same as live animal flesh, and test results aren't what I'm really looking for, unless the tests were actual use on game animals or killing livestock.

The link above about LTB stuff had quite a lot of info, but little of it was actual use on game.

Just saying "X is better than Y, because tests" isn't what I'm looking for but "I used X on 43 such and such animals and 57 other animals, this is how they performed, and this is how Y bullets performed on other animals and this is why I believe X is better than Y".

I've shot hundreds of small game with various centerfire handgun loads. When using RN bullets, I'd have occasional jacks that would get up and run off, and small game shot with RN bullets didn't exhibit much effect at the shot compared to SWC bullets, and I never had a jack get up and run off after a hit with a Keith style bullet. The one coyote I shot with a 45 auto RN load, I was profoundly underwhelemed at the effect or the autopsy results, though after the results I observed shooting other smaller game, I wasn't surprised. Of the several coyotes I shot with Keith bullet loads at about 1000 fps always resulted in a very pronounced effect on them, even if a peripheral hit. They all looked like they were hit with a baseball bat at the shot, and were often knocked down.

OK, that's my story. I'm NOT looking for people to say "yeah, that's what happened with me" or agreement, or tests in artificial media, I'm looking for details of others experiences, shooting game, with different loads. Come on guys, with all the pages that can be filled up with stuff on forums, doesn't anyone want to talk about shooting game with different loads, and exactly how they worked or didn't work for you? No test media. Shooting live animals with different bullet types. How'd it go? What happened? What bullets, game and loads?

[Malamute]

Having shot a considerable number of game I've found only one absolute. That there is no absolutes.
In my 45 cal pistols I prefer something like the lee 228 RN of the 255 RF for small game like grouse or rabbits. They just punch a 45 cal hole without too much damage.
The Keith type boolits make a bigger wound channel. I much prefer them for deer, coyote etc.

However the end result, distance traveled after the shot seems about the same.

Very good post, thanks!

Can you expand for us about how many and what sorts of animals you've shot with different loads? I know there aren't any absolutes, but there do seem to be definite trends. The more experience brought to the question, the more the trends stand out, even with the anomalies. No absolutes in results on game, but is there certain types of bullets you definitely will or will not use because of specific experiences or results with them on game?



A grouse hit with a 38 258 gr rn will run a long ways, with the swc they do not move far.

Thanks! How many grouse have you shot with each type? How many did you have run off?

[white eagle]

I am a believer in this boolit http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-420C-D.png,
I have seen the effects on two separate animals and I have seen the effects of similar shaped boolits on other animals and I am convinced of their effectiveness on game
the large flat meplat does a terrific job I believe that the cast swc or Keith boolit would perform just as well

[Malamute]

I am a believer in this boolit http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-420C-D.png,
I have seen the effects on two separate animals and I have seen the effects of similar shaped boolits on other animals and I am convinced of their effectiveness on game
the large flat meplat does a terrific job I believe that the cast swc or Keith boolit would perform just as well

Nice looking bullet. How did the meat around the bullet holes look. Were they pass throughs, sideways lung shots, quartering, any bones encountered along the way, how big were the exits, or damage path through the animals, any bloodshot or bruising around the holes...? How fast were you pushing them?

What were the other animals and bullets/loads used? You mentioned they were similar?

[Lex]

I shot a mule deer with a 280gr cast bullet out of my 38/55 hit the front of the rear leg went threw the deer and out his neck on the far side.he went straight down and never took a step the bullet was a flatpoint Lyman bullet around 1500fps.

[Hickok]

I have shot many deer with Keith SWC's in .44 and .45 caliber, and they work extremely well for me. Repeatable and predictable performance on animals, in other words, they do what I expect them to do.

Some may have different experiences than me, but with RNFN' in the .45 Colt caliber, namely the Lee 452-255-RNFN, I don't get as much tissue damage as the Keith SWC in that caliber on deer. Entrance and exit holes are also less pronounced compared to the SWC also. The RNFP works, but my results find the Keith SWC better in terms of wound channels. Others may have different results, but this is my experience with these two boolit designs in revolvers.

[Petrol & Powder]

The semi wadcutter will always outperform (make a bigger wound channel) the round nose bullet of the same caliber launched at the same speed. I use them in my 44mag and they are devastating on deer and black bear, Elmer knew what he wrought, and it hasn't changed with age.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

I cannot improve upon this /\

[44magLeo]

You not only have to look at the shape of a boolit, you need to look at the strength of the alloy.
A hard SWC will punch straight through with little expansion and leave a small wound channel.
A soft nosed round nose boolit will expand, causing a larger wound channel.
Also velocity of the boolit.
Any sort of testing should include all these factors. It should also be done with a consistent test media. Animals make for poor uniformity. No two animals react to the same boolit the same. Two deer hit the same place at the same angle at the same distance, one may drop right there, the other run a 1/4 mile.
That and not too many people can shoot enough animals at the same place, angle and distance, with hundreds of different boolits in many alloys and speeds to get much useful info.
Using test media, wet newspaper, ballistic gelatin, gallon water jugs. What ever, may not be exactly the same results as actual flesh and bone, but can be very consistent.
This allows the tester to observe differences in bullet performance under much more controlled conditions as well as shooting a lot more boolits at varying velocity, shape, alloy.
Leo

[MT Gianni]

Very good post, thanks!




Thanks! How many grouse have you shot with each type? How many did you have run off?
Answered in PM

[Malamute]

A)Any sort of testing should include all these factors. It should also be done with a consistent test media.

B) Animals make for poor uniformity. No two animals react to the same boolit the same. Two deer hit the same place at the same angle at the same distance, one may drop right there, the other run a 1/4 mile.
That and not too many people can shoot enough animals at the same place, angle and distance, with hundreds of different boolits in many alloys and speeds to get much useful info.



A) I'm specifically wanting to discuss hunting, not wanting to discuss tests of any kind, thanks though.

B) Yes, I agree, animals aren't very consistent, which is the reason I wanted to discuss them. I think talking about actual use on game is more relevant to bullet performance on game than any test medium can be (and is vastly more interesting), as it most represents actual use on animals. And no, few people shoot scads of animals these days, though some can account for dozens if not hundreds of various size animals. We can use forums like this to ask others on the internet their experiences, and gain some useful info that we cant gain from artificial test media of any sort. With enough such experiences, we gain some insight into the real life uses of different bullets on game, not just the theories and limited consistency, and predictable nature that tests provide.

Thanks again for the posts about your hunting experiences and bullet performance. I'd love to see more, with as much useful details as anyone can provide.

I appreciate the effort, but lets please stay with hunting use, not test media results. I've seen mountains of test info over the years, and isn't what the topic of this thread is about.

[Boyscout]

It appears to me that most of the respondents who use test media with their hunting bullets have a lot to offer. I am sure they cross-reference their test experiences with their field experiences on live animals. If I had a particularly bad experience with an alloy/bullet type on a live animal, I would sure like to have a test reference so I would know what to avoid in the future. I have only killed one deer with a CB. It was a 200 gn 358 RFN gas checked bullet at about 1600 fps. It went in 35 cal and came out about 45 caliber judging by the exit wound. The deer went 20 yards. (broad side, high shoulder entry, one lung, heart, low exit on opposite side)

I do not shoot at ranges where I am allowed to set up test media but I would like to see what my bullet looks like under controlled circumstances. Currently my bullets are COWW +2% tin. I plan on trying to maintain or exceed 1600 fps with a softer alloy and still maintain accuracy. If it isn't accurate, nothing else matters.

[Malamute]

It appears to me that most of the respondents who use test media with their hunting bullets have a lot to offer...

Yes, I agree, test mediums have a lot to offer, but that's a subject for a different thread, this one is about experiences hunting, and comparing results of different bullets on game if folks have used different ones. :D

Thanks for your comments about your deer!

[44man]

I have to agree with Leo, alloy is important and a RN that expands can do a lot of damage. The Keith shoulder does not touch anything so Veral is also correct. What most depends on is alloy versus velocity, too hard too fast will poke a hole like a RN no matter the meplat until velocity gets high enough to cause lead disruption.
You need to understand a pressure wave from a hard flat nose can move tissue away from the boolit path if too fast.
I use nothing but WLN and WFN styles because they are more accurate then a Keith. RNFP boolits are also more accurate. Revolvers of course.
Look at bloodshot meat, it is from destruction of lungs so the heart pumps blood out the hole and it gets between connective tissue and most will wipe away. There is a difference between blood shot and destroyed meat. Quick kills will have blood shot results as well as meat damage kills but is better then making mush of the meat.
No test media works to show what you will get. My fastest killing WLN and WFN boolits will do 34" to 37" of wet phone books with no expansion at all.
Don't look at blood shot as bad, it is there if you got internal destruction with no meat damage so you can eat to the hole.
If a WLN has the same meplat as a Keith, it kills the same but will not have the same long range accuracy. I just can't make a Keith shoot like I want.

[Malamute]

Thanks for the post.

What animals have you shot with the different bullets, how did the animals react, Did they go anywhere after the shot, how did the wounds look?

[44man]

Wounds always vary depending on the placement. The revolver is not a pin point shooter unless from a rest, not to be had from my stands too often. But a WLN from the .44 can be nasty no matter how hard it is. One heck of a gun.
I can not count my revolver kills anymore but it has been a long, long time since I switched. I might have more instant drops then any rifle shooter around here. the revolver can be devastating. It is funny to see deer belly up when out of recoil.
I can show what a very hard WLN will do from the .44.123241
Then a .475 shot at 76 yards, hit under the chin with this exit, no meat loss. 123242
I am mostly a deer hunter but did shoot a sitting bunny with a Keith long ago, shot for the tip of the nose and only had the back legs left, rest was gone!
The my 45-70 BFR with a hard WFN going 1630 fps. Lost two, no blood trails. Jump and go stand too far or thick for another shot, walk off and die somewhere. Those I did find after 200 + yards had pink lungs with just a hole. Changed the boolit to Babore's 50-50 HP and things went to hell with a shoulder on exit GONE. 123243
Most rifles, even a mag can't equal what a revolver does. They continue to amaze me.

[Malamute]

Wow! Great pictures and great post! Thanks!

Interesting about the WFN loads in the 45-70 with the deer walking off. That's a bit surprising, even with the bullets being hard.

The last exit pic is impressive. I've had pretty wicked exits from rifles with JSP bullets in '06 and 338, but not to that degree, if the bullet removed all that meat. The cast pistol caliber exits are usually less destructive. I did shoot a jack rabbit once with a factory Winchester 357 lead Lubaloy load (SWC type with copper coating) with a 6" Smith, it pretty well exploded the jack. That was unusual though.

I have a couple HP molds but haven't used them yet. I may try the Gould mold for deer.

[44man]

Yeah, a revolver can just ruin a deer. the big bores are something to see. So alloy work is important.
I admit it is strange to see .300 Weatherby damage from a revolver but it is true. So is a loss with the wrong boolut. Takes some work with each caliber and I still am learning. I am close now.
I do love the large guns but some are very hard to get right. The .454, .460 and .500 S&W present problems. They can make red mist or lose deer as easy.
Even the .500 JRH is crazy but I got it to work. Nothing is too big if it works. Too fast needs work as does too slow.

[oldsagerat]

Using a Ruger 77/357 and round nose bullets on jack rabbits
showed good penetraton but little damage and sometimes
slow death for the rabbits. Switched to SWC and truncated cone
cast bullets and things changed completely. The kills were sudden,
the damage more extensive and the exit holes were huge. So I
have been shooting the RN at tin cans and the flat nose designs
are the only thing I hunt with.

I load to 1600 fps in this rifle and use 158 grain cast. Don't need
to use J-word hollow points for jack rabbits any more.

[pls1911]

Both will kill fine with proper placement.
However, the slap factor of a wide meplat cannot be understated, and the cutter edges leave much better holes than round nose.
Personal experience with .30 calT, 45 Colt, 45/70 and .35 cal is proof positive...
A BIG MEPLAT SIMPLY HAMMERS critters with shoulder shots.... DRT, period.