209 primers vs the #11 percussion caps with my slug gun

[oldracer]

Well today I decided to try one of the 209 primer adapters I learned about from Johnson1942 when I bought one of his fine muzzle loaders. The results were "weird" to say the least as I used the same setup that worked well last week in my slug gun while working up the paper patch business. I loaded 90 grains of Goex FFG, 0.060 veggie wad and 560 grain Chase wrapped pure lead bullet.

The first shot was 10 inches higher than the ones from last week so I figured: it must be hotter ignition? The wiped with one wet Ballistol/water patch then dried with one. The amount of "sludge" was much greater than last week? I did a sight adjust to lower the impact and the next shot was right in the bulls eye and again a lot of residue? Each succeeding shot dropped about an inch, right under the last until I wiped with FOUR wet patches and then dried as it took that many to clean things out and the next shot went right back to where the original shot was! I ran out of time so put things away and now I am thinking that maybe the powder load is too heavy for the 209 primer? I certainly don't want to have to wipe that much after each shot.......so any ideas anyone?

[Theditchman]

Try it with pyrodex or buckhorn and see if it works better

[Sweetpea]

Are you using standard 209s, or the ones intended for frontstuffers?

There is a difference, the ones designed for muzzleloaders, although quite a bit more expensive, are less powerful than those for shotshells, to reduce the amount of "push" before ignition, which will lead to poor accuracy.

[oldracer]

These are standard 209 primers and have worked very well in the 50 cal I bought from Rogers a couple years ago. I plan to try both next week in my range trip and plan to take a large white or light colored sheet with me and lay out on the ground in front of my shooting bench. In the Major Roberts book he mentions how builders in the 1800's would get to the max or most efficient powder load. They would spread out a sheet and work the load higher and higher until there were unburned powder grains on the sheet and then back down. I am wondering if there is some unburned powder with the #11 caps so there is not as much residue build up?

[Sweetpea]

The higher pressure and stronger flash have a tendency to leave a "crud ring", at least with some of the substitute powders.

I've been running 120 grains (by volume) Pyrodex in my Knight, using 209s. Very accurate, with my rifle and slug combo.

Yours will be Very different, seeing as I've been running 245 grain slugs.

90 grains may be too much for your combination.

[DIRT Farmer]

The 209 primers are pushing the slug before the powder gets a good burn going.
In the one inline I worked up for the best group I could get from it I ended up using standard CCIs. Also it took a new stainless nipple every 20 shots to keep the groupe close. I wasent interested enough to spend the money on a platimum lined nipple. The gun was a Remington 700 50 using the Lee real conical.

[Plastikosmd]

^ agree with dirt.
I know many have moved to standard primers to ignite. I am still stuck in the past using #11 but I group well with what I've got

[idahoron]

I have the #11 and I have to stay that way due to Idaho Laws.But truth be told the #11 will make her go bang every time just like they did many years ago.

[oldracer]

For target shooting in CA I can use either #11's or the 209's. The 209 are way easier to get, cheaper and should give a lot hotter spark and as I noted earlier I think you problem was residue build up due to too high of a powder load. I plan to try 70 and 80 grains of FFG to see what happens and also switch back to #11's after trying those. I'll update this Monday evening sometime after my experiments.

[Plastikosmd]

Do let us know

[kens]

The amount of 'sludge' can be due to weather conditions, if using real black powder.
On damp high humidity days, black powder residue absorbs moisture and gets like sludge.
Not a good thing for hunting, or, long periods between shots.
However, shooting targets, or timed relays, it is just fine. Just clean the bore the same way between shots and lets the sludge remain 'stable' this gives consistent group.
In my younger days of shooting, on those damp days, I dry wiped 1 patch between shots, thats all.
On very dry days the residue seemed dry, I used 1 wet patch, and 1 dry.

[oldracer]

Here is an update. I went to the range today and started with the 209 primer adapter in the gun, 70 grains of FFG and the 1st shot was low as expected but still a lot of fouling? Took 3 wet patches to clean it out before drying? Fired another, same result. Went up to 80 grains for two shots, hit was 2 inches higher, about the same amount of fouling and patches needed. Went to 90 grains, hit was right in the middle but still the same fouling. Cleaned out the gun real well and put a nipple back in. Used 90 grains for 5 shots, all nearly touching, one wet patch one dry to clean things up. So I am thinking it is the cast area inside the patent breech that is causing the weird ignition with the powder and in looking at it with my borescope, it is about the same as my Gibbs in size and shape. Pedersoli says to NOT use those 209 primers as problems will probably result?! So for my slug guns it will be #11's for now.

[DIRT Farmer]

Some of the round ball bench shooters use small pistol primers but that is a game I have watched but never studied.

Several of the skeet shooters use adapters in modern guns and 209s to good effect but the big advantage is that they can use the same gun for modern as well as muzzleloading, plus you can get away with a lot in a shotgun that will not work as well in a rifle.

[johnson1942]

I use them on all my rifles and never had that problem. shoots cleaner for me, have no answer.

[oldracer]

Yes I know as I use them in the rifle I bought from you a couple years ago and they work great?! It might be the very small "vent" hole near the breech?

[johnson1942]

that vent hole got a lot of pro and neg. comments both when I posted about it way back. it does work as it allows air trapped between the base of the bullet and the breech plug to be pushed out as the fire goes in. thus the fire goes in a lot faster and with more power. its not my idea but I first saw it and a high end rifle form the 1840/s. Dixie gun works writes about it also. I have two vent holes on on each side in front of the breech plug on my big .50 target rifle. that breech is very clean after fireing no matter what kind of powder I use. the only draw back with two vent holes is the noise that comes from them together when the gun goes off. I use ear plugs when I fire that gun. I also was stupid enough to put a finger over one vent hole when I was shooting from a bench one day. was concentrateing on the target and didn't realize I was doing it. felt like my finger was hit with a big hammer. was black and blue for quite a while. dang near wet my pants when the gun went off, that was a eye opener. felt like a fool, man did I dance and sweat.

[Maven]

"I also was stupid enough to put a finger over one vent hole when I was shooting from a bench one day. was concentrateing on the target and didn't realize I was doing it. felt like my finger was hit with a big hammer. was black and blue for quite a while. dang near wet my pants when the gun went off, that was a eye opener." ...johnson1942

Roger, I did that with my flintlock once while trying a new offhand stance. You described what I experienced perfectly!

[johnson1942]

eyes bugged out, had to try hard to hold my water, looked around to see if anyone saw how dumb I was and danced a lot and sucked on that finger for a hour. again wont do that again.