Subsonic loads for 45/70 Marlin

[Ben Dover]

A friend has a Marlin 45/70 and during a conversation we wondered what it would do if loaded to approx. 1080fps with a 400gr CB. We welcome your opinions. Thank you. Ben.

[sghart3578]

It would perform marvelously. I do it myself, when I get home from work I can check my load notes and give you a few recipes.

[NSB]

Not sure what you mean by "what it would do"? Accuracy? Ballistics? Hunting?
I own, and have owned, several 45-70s in High Wall, Lever, and Sharps configurations. All shot well and most of the time were loaded anywhere from 1100-1400fps. I've shot several deer with this caliber and have yet to recover even one bullet out of a whitetail. Even at 1100fps it's a clean pass through at any angle up to a hundred yards or so. I just shot another one last Sunday at around 75 yards with a 405g bullet at around 1200fps and it went through like a hot knife through butter. What specifically is your question?

[6pt-sika]

I've done a fair amount of work with sub sonic in a 223 and several 308's and they all did nicely . Even killed a few deer with the 308's and Outlaw State 220-225 grain bullets .

After I got done with the bolt guns I had thoughts of the same thing with a short barreled 444 lever I have . While I could get them subsonic the accuracy left a good bit to be desired . And the cost of a suppressor for a 44/444 far exceeds that of one for a 22/30 center fire (and I can get them at dealer cost )well obviousely a 444's not a 45-70 but it ain't to far off . With the 444 I was using 300 grain cast .

[dh2]

IMR Powder Trail Boss
Bullet Diameter .458"
C.O.L. 2.540"
Starting Load
Grains 12.0
Velocity (ft/s) 971
Pressure 24,500 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains 13.0
Velocity (ft/s) 1,007
Pressure 25,600 CUP

from Hodgon web sight not only does it very possible it looks like they have all ready done it

[Rick Hodges]

The Remington factory load with 405 gr. sp Jword only chono's 1100 from my guide gun. It had a reputation of being a reliable hunting load....you will be just fine.

[Scharfschuetze]

It sounds like you want to replicate the 45/55/405 round that the cavalry used in their Trapdoor carbines. I duplicate that load with either the Lee 405 grain hollow base boolit sized to .460 or with any commercially cast 405 grain projectile and use the loads in original Trapdoors, the H&R replica Officer Model Trapdoor and the Marlin 1895 rifle with Ballard style rifling. Not only are the below loads accurate at closer ranges, but the Tight Group load holds well at extended ranges. Knocking little rocks of off a cliff face at 300 or 400 yards or ringing metal gongs at distance is quite fun with these loads and the recoil is minimal.

Averages for the below loads are based on 10 shot strings.

Tight Group powder

405 grain boolit sized .460 for three groove barrels and .459 for modern barrels
R-P cases (I use a moderate crimp for the Marlin 1895 for magazine loading)
Rem 9 1/2 LR primer
10.5 grains of Tight Group powder
No filler

Av: 1,078 fps, Es: 11.5, Sd: 4.7, Accuracy: 2 1/2 MOA at all ranges

The above load seems to be the sweet spot for this combination and cases will just fall out of a Trapdoor's chamber with the breech block open, but I'd be careful and work up to it in your rifles as any of the fast pistol powders can jump up in pressure much faster than their increase in velocity would indicate.

5744 Powder

My loads using an early lot of 5744 were disappointing as the low chamber pressure left a lot of semi-burned kernels of powder in the rifles, enough to tie up the Marlin 1985 and even the Trapdoors.

24 grains of 5744

Av: 1092, Es: 11.6, Sd: 4.5, Accuracy: 5 MOA

Unique Powder

13 grains Unique:

Av: 1125, Es: 45, Sd: 13, Accuracy: 4 MOA at all ranges

Hope that helps. All three loads should be about what your goal is.

[sghart3578]

The following two loads are very accurate in my Handi Rifle:

Lee 405 grain LFN, sized to .459", lubed with Alox

12 gr Unique: avg 1074 fps
11 gr Bullseye: avg 1093 fps

very mild recoil with both, plenty of stopping power and really rings the gong at 100 yards

[Ben Dover]

Thank you all for the responses. The principal use for a subsonic load would be deer hunting in thick areas in the South. If a hog was encountered it would become a target. It seems this type of load is plenty useful the way it is. Ben

[Enyaw]

I'm a firm believer in following the "book". I'll pick what I want or close to it from a loading manual.
The starting loads are a good place to start. Loads with Accurate 5744 or even IMR3031 are in the book.

I don't thunk it's wise to use powders not listed in the book for a certain caliber and boolit and rifling twist.

Possible detonations would result in failures to the rifles. Detonations occur when using small powder charges and ,I'd imagine(because I don't know everything), failures can accure with powders that are not "position insensitive" in large cases built fer black powder.

Titegroup powder is one that is position insensitive but I wouldn't know of any cases(no pun intended) where it's recommended for 45/70 caliber.

If a powder in a big case is not position insensitive there can be a less than full ignition of it causing a detonation. You know....detonation like a reciever and barrel turning into a fragmented shrapnal type thing. Catostrophic failure.

Using small fer the case fast powders designed fer pistols with short barrels can........Depending on the type of primer used the flash of the primer can go over the top of the powder and pop the bullet into the barrel far enough to get a "Fizzle" (powder ignites in a long area) instead of a bang and leave the bullet stuck in the barrel somewhere ahead of the chamber. Getting a fizzle would be better than the possible ignition of enough powder to cause a detonation.

Anywhooo.....I'd recommend using the starting loads that are in the "book" for the certain boolits and powders and primers and cases and all that riggaramoe. Detonations can blow a good sturdy reciever and barrel. At least that's what I hear/read. It's better to be safe than sorry.

Powders like 3031 and 5744 and 4198 and 4895 come to mind. Don't quote me on that. I'd have to check a loading manual to be really sure bout it. I have used the starting loads fer Accurate 5744 and IMR3031 with good results using a 405gr. lead alloy boolit. Accuracy seemed good enough fer me.

I know that with the "Holy Black" powder the long range shooters go 1,100+fps to 1,200+fps approx. to get good results. Of course using black the cases are always filled with powder.

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?152357-subsonic-45-70

[TCLouis]

10.5 grains of Unique (Milsurp tested and exact copy) with 378 grain Ranch Dog boolit was 1100 for me in a 1886 and Remington RB.

Accurate also.