Ingots too big for melting pot!

[DickelDawg]

The WW ingots I bought are too big to go in my Lee IV bottom pour melting pot. How can I easily and safely cut these down to size?

[Echo]

Melt 'em down in an old pot, or whatever, and make new ingots.
(Those must be humongous ingots - I have some 3-pounders that fit just fine - well, one at a time)

[Horseman1]

It it were me, I would have fun putting them into a larger pot and making smaller ingots. Since I'm just getting started, I've learned a lot by making ingots first anyway.

[edit] Typing at the same time as Echo, but I type slower!

[pjames32]

I've cut them with a band saw. You probably will need to soap or WD-40 the blade or it will melt the lead and stick. Go slow! YMMV

[azrednek]

Buy a cheapie cooking pot from a Goodwill type store, put it on a Coleman stove, turkey fryer or even a barbeque with a hot fire. Pour the melted alloy into an ingot mold such as a muffin pan you can scrounge at Goodwill.

[DickelDawg]

Thanks again, Gentlemen. Tried the band saw....didn't work for me.

[osteodoc08]

This is your opportunity to buy a cheap pot and ladle. Buy some rectangular small load pans at Wally World and make some new ingots. Sawdust and wax is cheap. Learn to flux and reduce.

[Beagle333]

Get a bigger hammer. They'll flatten.

[country gent]

With the band saw or a sawz all you need a fairly coarse blade to keep it from chip binding and galding. Use beeswax or prafin inthe blade as a cutting fluid. WHat also helps alot is a wire wheel mounted under the table so it spins at an angle pushing the chips out of the blade. If you have a heavy chiesel and big hammer they can someties be split with it. ( alot of work though). A big pot and blend them all flux and make ingots that will fit your pot is the easiest way to go.

[bangerjim]

Any lube on your bandsaw will cause the blade to slip on the rubber tires. Unless it is one of those expensive horizontal ones that has a lube system built in!

The sawzall will work with one of those "The Ugly" wood blades in it. But hold onto your fillings! I hate sawzalls for the vibration. Key is very few teeth per inch in lead. Metal-cutting classified blades will only clog and jam. Use high end wood blades with the minimum # of teeth you can find.

I use a dual rotary metal cutting saw.

Your best bet will be to melt them down in a big pot as you do your WW's and scrap lead, flux, and pour them into 1# ingot cavity molds. I do everything in one pounders. But store much bulk in large native hunks until I need it and then reduce it down to the 1# units.

banger

[dtknowles]

I have used what my Dad called a "cold chisel" and a "drilling hammer" to cut ingots into pieces. The chisel is meant for cutting metal, I have cut nails with it. I works fine on soft steel so lead is not a problem. You could use a pretty wide one on lead. The drilling hammer is like a short handled "sludge hammer." You need a pretty good pound to drive the chisel, a light hammer just won't do. Safety glasses and gloves are recommended and when the hammer gets chisel to peen grind off the thin edges before they become flying chips.

Tim

[mdi]

Too big how? Too wide? Too long? I'v used ingots that stuck up out of the pot by 8"-10". I just set them in place and watched as they melted, making sure they didn't tumble out of the pot. I've cut ingots with a big hammer and a cold chisel. A couple good whacks to get a "cut line" and bend/break at the "line"...

[Forgetful]

I've cut rotometals' 30% Sb 5lb ingots using a cold chisel, 3.5lb hammer and an anvil. A few heavy strikes and repositioning and it breaks.

Otherwise get a large used cast iron pot, like a dutch oven. No lid needed. Put it on a propane stove (high pressure line, with red regulator knob) and fill that pot with lead and enjoy your upgraded smelting experience. You can get a nice ladle or just use a soup can with steel wires for handles like a watering can so you can tilt it.

[fredj338]

An old cast iron skillet will get it done with enough heat, then pour smaller. My buddy sent me some 15# ingots. Good thing I have a 40# Magma to drop them into.

[NavyVet1959]

A hydraulic log splitter works well if you just happen to have one of them.

I have some pure lead bricks that were originally from radiation shielding. They are about 2x4x8 in size and definitely will not fit in my Lee pot. I just use an axe as a blade and a sledge hammer to hit the flat back of the axe blade. It's still a lot of work. Definitely easier to just toss it in a smelting pot and cast to smaller ingot size.

[ShooterAZ]

I've used an ax to chop lead into smaller pieces.

[gwpercle]

Whatever smaller pans you get for ingots make sure to get cast iron , stainless steel or aluminum.
I have been using Wilton , all aluminum, mini-muffin pans for years. No stick and quick cooling.
Teflon coated pans are not the best.
Gary

[Eddie2002]

It's way too dangerous to try to melt them down or cut them!! send them over to me and I'll dispose of them safely at a EPA collection site. ;)

[NavyVet1959]

If you want heavier ingots, make the mold out of angle iron and just make it longer. When you put it in the pot, the submerged part melts which allows the part sticking out of the lead to slide lower down and then melt. I welded by ingot molds out of channel iron and although they will fit in the Lee pot, they cool down the lead so quickly that the entire pot becomes a solid chunk. That's great for when you are through casting for the day and just want to quickly cool off the pot so that it can't drip while you're gone, but during a casting session, it seems more productive to add smaller amounts of lead at a time so that you don't cool it off too much faster than what the heating element for the pot can add back to the metal.

For example, let's say that you have your 20-lb pot half full at the 10-lb mark and it's running at 700F. If you then have an 8-lb ingot that you add and it is at a room temperature of 65F, you're going to get a combined mass weight of about 418F.

T = (10 * (700 + 458.67) + 8 * (65 + 458.67)) / 18 - 458.67 ≈ 417.78F

You have to use an absolute temperature scale such as Kelvin (K) or Rankine (R) to do these sorts of temperature calculations. The 458.67 value is the conversion from F to R.

Even if you start out with 16 lbs at 700F and add 2 lbs at 65F, it drops down to about 629F. So, if you're going to be adding large ingots and not preheating them, you should be prepared to take a few more beer breaks. :)

[skeettx]

If they are not TOO large,

Hold the ingot with vice grip pliers and melt one edge
into your pot with a propane torch.
Fill the pot with the drippings.
Then when the partially melted ingot is the proper size
to fit inside the pot, put it aside for
the next pot filling.
Mike

[RED333]

If they are not TOO large,

Hold the ingot with vice grip pliers and melt one edge
into your pot with a propane torch.
Fill the pot with the drippings.
Then when the partially melted ingot is the proper size
to fit inside the pot, put it aside for
the next pot filling.
Mike
This is the very thing I do, works every time.

[Drdarrin]

I convert 50# ingots into usable 2.5# ingots with a RCBS ingot mold, vice grips and torch loaded with a MAP gas tank.
working out of doors on my covered patio, I elevated the 50# ingot on 2 12" square pavers I had on hand so that the ingot overhangs the pavers. Position another paver under the overhanging ingot and position the ingot mold, with the vice grips firmly clamped on the lip. Fire up the torch and begin melting the larger ingot, letting the melt run into and fill the ingot mold. Reposition and dump as necessary.

One tank of gas was more than enough to melt the entire 50# ingot. Much easier than cutting or pounding that large of in ingot into submission.

[MT Gianni]

A log splitting wedge works without loosing materiel. Use at least a 4 lb hammer to drive it with.

[Nazgul]

Ditto the axe.

Wear safety glasses and go Viking on them! Good exercise.

Don

[bangerjim]

Just goes to show ya.....there are as many opinions on the right way to cut up lead as there ways to make boolit lube concoctions.

And NavyVet1959 just made melting lead into rocket science!!!!!!!!!!! [smilie=p:

banger

[Forgetful]

Thermite.

[Rick O'Shay]

I have used a propane torch to melt ingots into the pot. Be careful not to let the flame melt anything on your pot. I made a heat shield for the pot with a hole to let the drippings flow into the melting pot.

[Ola]

I noticed by accident that it is possible to cut the ingots with Lee pot. Just place the too-big ignot on top of the pot. You know, on the hot edge. If the ingot is of reasonable size, after some time, the the edge will melt through it. Part of the ingot falls inside the pot and the other part falls on the casting table. I have tried it only couple of times (on purpose) but so far the part that falls on the table has been still solid.

It is not a FAST way, but you can do this while casting.

[NavyVet1959]

And NavyVet1959 just made melting lead into rocket science!!!!!!!!!!! [smilie=p:


Well, I plugged that formula into a spreadsheet after my previous post and came up with some interesting numbers. Seems that the best way to keep your lead at a good casting temperature would be to keep the pot nearly full and as it gets around 2 lbs down, add another 2 lb ingot to the pot. The latent heat of fusion of lead is not particularly high, so you do not run into the BTU penalty that you do when converting water from solid to liquid (and even that is significantly less than the latent heat of evaporation BTU penalty of converting water from liquid to gas).

What this means is that with a 6-cavity 230 gr mold, you should be adding another 2 lb ingot after about every 6 casts. Don't know about you, but I haven't been doing it that way. My "technique" is to cast until it get about half empty and then toss a few more ingots in there, watch it end up solidifying on me, and use that time to go get another beer. I guess I'm not being that efficient. :(



Molten Lead
Added Ingot
Combined Temperature


Weight
Temperature
Weight
Temperature


4
700
14
65
206.1


5
700
13
65
241.4


6
700
12
65
276.7


7
700
11
65
311.9


8
700
10
65
347.2


9
700
9
65
382.5


10
700
8
65
417.8


11
700
7
65
453.1


12
700
6
65
488.3


13
700
5
65
523.6


14
700
4
65
558.9


15
700
3
65
594.2


16
700
2
65
629.4


17
700
1
65
664.7









4
700
14
400
466.7


5
700
13
400
483.3


6
700
12
400
500.0


7
700
11
400
516.7


8
700
10
400
533.3


9
700
9
400
550.0


10
700
8
400
566.7


11
700
7
400
583.3


12
700
6
400
600.0


13
700
5
400
616.7


14
700
4
400
633.3


15
700
3
400
650.0


16
700
2
400
666.7


17
700
1
400
683.3



The Lee Pro 4-20 pot is supposedly 700 watts. At 3.41214 BTUs per Watt, than means it can theoretically produce 2388.5 BTUs/hr. Combining this with the specific heat of lead allows you to calculate the theoretical maximum throughput that could be achieved casting from a pot with this size heat source and the temperature remaining constant. The specific heat of lead is 0.0305 BTU/lb-F.

[sandman228]

a while back I bought a 30 lb brick sized ingot it was to big to do anything with so I tried to cut it down . I tried a reciprocating saw with a few different blades with no luck , I tried a 4.5 inch angle grinder with a cut off wheel that didn't work either . next I tried a hatchet it was hard lead with a high tin and antimony level so it was a kinda on the brittle side there were hunks flying off with every wack from the hatchet I didn't wanna waist all the hunks flying everywhere so I just sat it aside till I could figure something else out . i was out in the shed cleaning up 1 day and just for the hell of it I put the ingot in the vise and took a plain old handsaw to it and it worked fine . don't overthink things start out simple and work from there .

[scottfire1957]

An option I have used: Ask a local fire station if they will cut the large pieces with the jaws of life. Mine were WW cast in a valve cover. The jaws made them manageable in minutes, and a rookie got some needed rescue practice.

[bangerjim]

sandman---------you are right, a common hacksaw will definitely cut hard lead. The fewer the teeth the better. I have some 18 TPI blades I used to use. Since you are huffin-n-puffin going back and forth, the lead and blade cools a bit and does not seize up or gall as with power hacksaws or bandsaws. A ton of work if a lot of lead, but small pieces.......it's OK.

OP---------That dual rotary metal saw I use (for everything now!) cuts thru any lead like a hot knife thru butter. And no physical stress at all. No massive vibration like a sawzall. No kickback. Just pick up the "lead dust" and melt it too! I have even cut smaller hunks by just laying them on an old piece of plywood and sliced thru it. There is no kickback so no clamps are needed. And you just cut into the plywood below. Just be careful to not severely bind the blades.

I had a 150# hunk of WW's someone had "Cast" (??!!) in a hole they dug in the ground!!!! Sliced off pieces to fit in my melting pot easily. Cut one side...flip and cut thru from the other side!

Those are amazing tools. If you have any larger amounts of Pb stock to cut, you would be wise to consider one. (HF with 20% coupon!) You will use it everywhere in the shop for all you rough cutting needs.

banger

[GhostHawk]

I recently did a smelting run to convert a big 20lb down rigger cannonball and 3 angle iron range lead ingots into small ingots.

I still have an old Saeco 4 ingot mold. I tend to not quite fill them, and they tend to weigh around 12-14 oz each. I got 50 of those small ingots that feed perfectly into my Lee pot out of that hour.

I noticed while melting those long bars that if my pot was half full of metal I could quickly cut them in half with a stream of hot lead from my ladle. 8-12 ladle fulls would cut a channel right through them. I was knocking off 4" chunks then I'd shove them out of the way and nudge the bar in another 4 inches.

I'd then pour 4 ingots and while I was waiting for those to cool I'd keep cutting the bar.

Worked pretty slick.

[sandman228]

it wasn't even a hacksaw it was a plain old craftsman wood cutting saw with pretty aggressive teeth I bought new at a local surplus store for 5$. I do allot around the house as far as remodeling ,building and all and cant even remember the last time I used a handsaw to cut wood but for 5$ I figured it was worth having around .

[bangerjim]

Actually a "keyhole" saw with only a few TPI will cut lead very well.

banger

[Dale53]

I was gifted about 750 lbs of 6% antimonial lead. It was in ingots that weighed from 65-92 lbs in size. I used a fish/turkey fryer (propane) with a cast iron dutch oven (the oven is dedicated to lead melting, only).

Here's the 92 lb ingot:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QWinter2009andleadsmelting-1767.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/QWinter2009andleadsmelting-1767.jpg.html)

I had a welding friend make up several 5.0 lb ingot moulds (my RCBS will handle several of those at once) from 2" angle iron. It is important to "tilt" the sides and ends a bit so that the lead ingots will release easily. These moulds are really good - they are rugged and the large capacity will allow you to pour 100 lbs of bullet metal in just a few minutes. I also have a number of "Regular" commercial ingot moulds that I use along with the others. The more moulds you have, the faster the operation. That can be important when you are trying to smelt 500-1000 lbs. in a day.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QIngotmoulds031.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/QIngotmoulds031.jpg.html)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QWinter2009andleadsmelting-1769.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/QWinter2009andleadsmelting-1769.jpg.html)

The fish fryer can be bought on sale for $30-$40 dollars (Black Friday time is a good time to look:veryconfu) and the cast iron Dutch Oven can be had from Harbor Freight for a relatively small amount of money. If you have a used, out of date, propane tank (20 lb) they can be cut in half to make an even better container for the fish fryer. Use the search function on here for good examples of that.

Dale53

[Charlie U.]

A hydraulic log splitter works well if you just happen to have one of them.

I have some pure lead bricks that were originally from radiation shielding. They are about 2x4x8 in size and definitely will not fit in my Lee pot. I just use an axe as a blade and a sledge hammer to hit the flat back of the axe blade. It's still a lot of work. Definitely easier to just toss it in a smelting pot and cast to smaller ingot size.

Yep, I had a stack of those blocks as well. Saws bind up and make a mess. I tried axes, wedges, and anything else I could think of.......The log splitter worked the best. Getting access to a hydraulic splitter is a lot less hassle than setting up a bigger melting pot.
If you use a log splitter on lead blocks it does help a lot to preheat/warm the blocks up. Big blocks of cold lead can bog down a log splitter, but warmed up it will pinch off useable chunks will ease.

[Mwsenoj]

I've used bolt cutters to snip my nuclear medicine containers. Might work for you too.

[GP100man]

Melt em in a suitable pot then ladle it in the casting furnace, preheated ! just flux & go !!

[NavyVet1959]

Yep, I had a stack of those blocks as well. Saws bind up and make a mess. I tried axes, wedges, and anything else I could think of.......The log splitter worked the best. Getting access to a hydraulic splitter is a lot less hassle than setting up a bigger melting pot.
If you use a log splitter on lead blocks it does help a lot to preheat/warm the blocks up. Big blocks of cold lead can bog down a log splitter, but warmed up it will pinch off useable chunks will ease.

It would also be easier to split them if you were cutting closer to the edge. When I tried cutting one of the bricks in half with a hammer and a wood wedge, it was a lot more effort than if I tried cutting an inch or two from the edge. I suspect that the same would be true on a log splitter. Of course, if you have a *serious* log splitter, it's going to cut through the bricks like butter regardless of where you place them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZjveXhYhfk

[Airman Basic]

An option I have used: Ask a local fire station if they will cut the large pieces with the jaws of life. Mine were WW cast in a valve cover. The jaws made them manageable in minutes, and a rookie got some needed rescue practice.
I've gotten several valve cover molded chunks, also. Local dirt track racers use them for ballast. Anyway, I learned that scoring around the lead "valve cover" with a hatchet makes it break at that line when placed on the edge of my concrete porch and applying pressure. In my case, stomping it with my rather large foot. The resulting halves fit nicely in my ProMelt.:cbpour:

[TCLouis]

I ended into some 100 pounds of # 2 alloy lead cast in muffin tin.

Does not work for my pot so a bunch of time spent with a cold chilel, 20 ounce hammer and 50 pound anvil and they are in nice little pieces.
Did the same for a couple of Lino ingots.

Now after season I have several hundred pounds of Sheet to convert into ingots using my 1 1/2 Angle Iron molds which fit perfectly into my Lee 10 or 20 pound pot.