1.5 successful experiments.

[nemesisenforcer]

So I had some cartridges of various chamberings laying around that were badly tarnished from years in a leather cartridge belt.

So I tried two experiments: cleaning the brass with a citric acid based cleaner, and tumbling loaded ammo.

The citric acid cleaner worked, after a fashion, removing most of the less serious tarnish build up, but failing on the really thick spots and "organic" deep down cosmetic tarnish. Even where it removed the tactile tarnish, you could still tell exactly where the bands of green had been.

The tumbling helped, but there are still some pretty gamma green spots on most of the rounds, but, despite my trepidations, no primers were detonated.:bigsmyl2:

[RickinTN]

I'm not sure I would worry as much about a primer detonating as I would static electricity!
Rick

[Pilgrim]

I would also worry about the powder granules being broken down. If they have broken down, burn rate will be much faster...be careful of those loads! I wouldn't shoot 'em. Your body parts and firearm are way more valuable than those old loads. FWIW

[blackthorn]

Depending on how rampant the green verdigris is, I would be more worried about a case failure than problems from tumbled live ammunition! I have seen verdigris that had eaten right through the case wall to the point the powder had been compromised. I have also tumbled live ammunition without any signs of it effecting the performance! Damage to live rounds from tumbling has been discussed on this forum many times so you might want to do a search and read up on it.

[Forgetful]

I'm not sure I would worry as much about a primer detonating as I would static electricity!
Rick

There is nothing to fear from static electricity when your powder is contained in conductive material. The static "zap" means electrons are moving, creating an instantaneous current. It's the electric current that can cause a conflagration. If you could zap a cartridge, the electrons would pass through the brass, around the case, but not through the powder in any way. For that to happen, 1) you would need a voltage potential much higher than 10,000 volts to be able to jump air through that case, and 2) you would have to be passing enough current through the case that the conductive metal is electrically saturated and some of it has an easier time jumping the air. By that I mean you're forming a parallel circuit between the low resistance of the case and the extremely high resistance of the insides.

Of course, if you're electrically saturating the case, it's resistance changes and begins to get HOT.. this heat could of course cause the cartridge to cook off.

[mdi]

So, ya had to go and mention tumbling live ammo! I think I've read arguements from both sides on forums since I went on line and found reloading forms, about '95 or so. I haven't seen/heard/read any definative evidence from either side...

Case cleaning. If you have a rotary cleaner, try some small nuts, washers, etc. with the citric acid solution. If you like the results, get some SS pins. I have used "deburring media" (small hard plastic pyramids) to really clean tarnished brass and rusty tools. The last batch I bought came from Harbor Freight...

[BruceB]

A few years ago, someone posted great photos of static-electricity sparks passing RIGHT THROUGH mounds of black powder.... without effect.

At that point, any concerns I ever had about static electricity were much reduced, to say the least.

[nemesisenforcer]

I'm not planning on shooting these rounds, they're for display only.

The tarnish isn't severe enough to compromise the case walls (I don't think) so no real worries there.

But thanks for the input.[smilie=s:

[nemesisenforcer]

So, ya had to go and mention tumbling live ammo! I think I've read arguements from both sides on forums since I went on line and found reloading forms, about '95 or so. I haven't seen/heard/read any definative evidence from either side...

Case cleaning. If you have a rotary cleaner, try some small nuts, washers, etc. with the citric acid solution. If you like the results, get some SS pins. I have used "deburring media" (small hard plastic pyramids) to really clean tarnished brass and rusty tools. The last batch I bought came from Harbor Freight...


would they work with a traditional tumbler?

[Cherokee]

For display only - then I would try Brasso

[mdi]

I've used small (#6, #8, #10) stainless steel nuts, screws, washers, and cotter pins as media with lemoshine (sp?) water and Dawn in my rotary tumbler (classic, real tumbler) a few times. It worked almost as good as SS pins but didn't get the crevasses/primer pockets (didn't matter to me though). I don't think this method will work as well in a vibrator cleaner (aka; wobbler) as the "media" is too heavy and would not circulate. Also the vibrator bowl would need to be water tight...

[cbrick]

There is nothing to fear from static electricity when your powder is contained in conductive material. The static "zap" means electrons are moving, creating an instantaneous current. It's the electric current that can cause a conflagration. If you could zap a cartridge, the electrons would pass through the brass, around the case, but not through the powder in any way. For that to happen, 1) you would need a voltage potential much higher than 10,000 volts to be able to jump air through that case, and 2) you would have to be passing enough current through the case that the conductive metal is electrically saturated and some of it has an easier time jumping the air. By that I mean you're forming a parallel circuit between the low resistance of the case and the extremely high resistance of the insides.

Of course, if you're electrically saturating the case, it's resistance changes and begins to get HOT.. this heat could of course cause the cartridge to cook off.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. I don't know if anyone still uses them but many have experimented with electric firing firearms. No sears, no firing pin. The trigger is a switch and current sets off the primer. Not a charge going through the case to worry about but rather the primer.

Rick

[geargnasher]

So, ya had to go and mention tumbling live ammo! I think I've read arguements from both sides on forums since I went on line and found reloading forms, about '95 or so. I haven't seen/heard/read any definative evidence from either side...

Case cleaning. If you have a rotary cleaner, try some small nuts, washers, etc. with the citric acid solution. If you like the results, get some SS pins. I have used "deburring media" (small hard plastic pyramids) to really clean tarnished brass and rusty tools. The last batch I bought came from Harbor Freight...

I saw some very definitive testing indicating your concerns are unfounded. What's never been prove is that it IS a problem, unless an overly-sensitive primer catches a case rim just right. Not arguing for either side, but the facts ARE out there.

Gear

[Forgetful]

I don't think that's entirely accurate. I don't know if anyone still uses them but many have experimented with electric firing firearms. No sears, no firing pin. The trigger is a switch and current sets off the primer. Not a charge going through the case to worry about but rather the primer.

Rick

I've heard of those. Caseless ammo? Or do you mean the "million rounds per minute" type platforms? They could stack ammo in a barrel and electrically fire the outermost round sequentially. Or am I thinking of the mortars.... Metal Storm, electronic ballistics? Electronically fired primers (think model rocketry) and caseless.

Caseless ammo had a problem with being very dirty, with polymers or glues holding the propellant together. Caused lots of problems in full auto. It never caught on because of the inherent reliability issues.

[cbrick]

Yeah, the military has them but several years ago there were guys messing with electric ignition in XP-100's. Regular ammo electrically fired.

Rick

[Forgetful]

Yeah, the military has them but several years ago there were guys messing with electric ignition in XP-100's. Regular ammo electrically fired.

Rick

I wonder if they took advantage of the piezo-electric effect, to utilize the kinetic force of the existing TG.

Personally, I fantasize about using induction heaters (+levitation) to create a block of molten metal, and combine it with a linear accelerator... Pure electrical fun :)

edit: Or if you could somehow use induction on a fired brass-turned projectile, so it reaches liquidus by the time it leaves the muzzle..

[Echo]

So, ya had to go and mention tumbling live ammo! I think I've read arguements from both sides on forums since I went on line and found reloading forms, about '95 or so. I haven't seen/heard/read any definative evidence from either side...

Hard to prove a negative. Folks have written about carrying a box of pistol ammo in the glove box , rattling around on dirt roads, &cetera, for months with no observed change in performance - but that isn't proof...
I would tumble live ammo, if I thought it would improve the performance, or make it purdier enough to warrant the effort. So far, no need...